are there really "jobs americans won't do" ?

of course not.

our ever lovely Commerce Sec., Carlos Gutierrez repeated that crap this morning on c-span's Wash. Journal.

and I say 'show me the stats. show me the evidence, that there are jobs americans won't do.

americans are everybody in the world.

how can we get the neo cons to stop using that phrase?

Jobs Americans won't do, for under minimum wage, and no safety net.

protection of the State Agricultural board, and yet, you only see Mexicans picking lettuce in the Salinas Valley. I'm sure if some or us whites would apply for work, we would get hired. So yes, there are jobs we won't do.

I worked summers in College for Donato & Sons, Sewer Contractors. I had to dig ditches, work in blazing August sun on the footings of foundations that were dripping with stinky fish oil waterproofing, and get into septic tanks with other people's SHIT. But the pay was OK. I got laborer's union scale, even though Donato was not unionized.

more americans would be willing to do "those jobs".

The minimum wage ought to be a living wage.

themselves to work there. Just because it pays minimum wage (which we all know wont support you or your family) doesn't mean that is a fair wage.

By the way, have you noticed that farm machinery advancements in picking have come to a dead halt. I've picked flowers and tomatoes during college and we only picked what the machines couldn't get. But I noticed lately, that hardly anyone uses picking machines anymore. Where is all that innovation that can design machines to take the pits out of fruit but not to pick it? We have no advancements in farming equipment because we don't need it. Human labor is so much cheaper.

When during the 1900s, rich women could no longer hire servants at slave wages (all the servants were getting jobs in the factories) the upper class women's clothes started to change so they could dress themselves. Necessity is the mother of invention. But there is no necessity to replace slaves.

In High School. And I mowed and cleaned up a drive-in movie lot for $1.25 an hour. Picking up people's used condoms was GROSS. I did it with a broomstick with a nail on the end.

yourself on it. You can't support yourself on minimum wage anymore.

I was a kid in high school. I used that money to buy a car when I turned 16. And it was a sub-minimum wage even then!

and supported myself on that wage. I didn't have a car and shared a one bedroom apt. with three other students. It wasn't luxury living but you could survive on it. What helped was that tuition was free back then. Today, I could not do the same on $5.15 an hour. How nice you could buy a car when you were sixteen. I had to spend three hours a day on the bus with two transfers each way to get to and from work and school.

I'm talking about 1973.

P.S. We were out in the countryside. No busses as all to ride.

No in the seventies you couldn't, but that was the result of a stealthy war on labor that was gaining and winning overturning wage and labor laws. Also the minimum wage was $1 an hour then. I was lucky to make $1.25. But, I finally was able to get a waitress job which gave me tips besides so, even though I made 90 cents an hour then (They deductied 10 cents for each dollar for any meals we might eat)I was able to work fewer hours and concentrate on my studies because tips made up for it.

Yes, in the country you can't always get a bus. I was in Los Angeles at the time and we also got a special rate for students if we bought a pass. Back then the US was much more student friendly. Guys who served in the armed forces got GI benefits for college too.

If you live in a place where the job market is bad enough, people WILL apply for minimum wage jobs at McDonalds.

I was one of the "lucky" ones to get hired there as a teenager. (I don't really know how to feel about that - I was lucky to get a job in a bad economy, but working there was awful.) It used to be heartbreaking to me that we would have 40-year-old men with families to support coming in there to apply, because they had worked all their lives at GM and got laid off and now needed a job anywhere they could find one. And what's worse, they wouldn't get the job...the managers would hire 16-year-olds like me with no work experience before they would hire the older guy with substantial work experience, because they figured he would quit as soon as he found a better-paying job.

Not unless you speak fluent Spanish. All your farm co-workers are non-English speakers as are the foremen. They will not hire someone who does not speak Spanish. I know this from EXPERIENCE.

You'll never hear a media whore ask either of those two questions.

there are wages no American should be asked to work for.

yep

It seems Americans are doing so fairly foul jobs on that program.

I can recall seeing a roofing episode where a lot of the employees could have been (my speculation) undocumented.

Other than that, my answer is yes, Americans will work a demanding job for an honest wage.

NGU.

my husband used to do - so I have no idea what Americns will not do. I think it is Americans are no longer ALLOWED to do the job - not that they can't.

PS - Years ago, when I was a lot younger, I sanded my own floors!!!

We have a company that makes very high-end sweaters. They are hand-loomed in S Carolina from California cotton.

To insure that our sweaters will last at least 20-30 years, the tag end of every strand of yarn is double knotted versus the far more common practice of weaving the loose end into the garment. The result is a sweater that will never loose any part of its shape.
We haven't been able to find a US company that will do a decent job of knotting for ten years.
Now, we can't even find someone who can do it in a half-assed fashion.
So we ship the sweaters to China and bring them back. This actually raises the cost and creates a lot of headaches and delays.

But the work is phenomenal.

that's just common sense.
the sourcing people found an easy way out.
even w/ 2 way shipping, it's probably cheaper your way. does your lableing reflect part of the work being done in china?

I am.
We searched high and low to no avail.
We are the 'sourcing people'.
Our costs went up over 10% because of this.
We were not trying to save money. We wanted a domestic product like we had produced for the previous 14 years before the S Carolinians got too effing lazy to do handwork.
And yes, our label actually says Made in China. Not 'Just a bit of this work was done in China', which is the reality.

they got lazy or their wages were stagnant for so many years they found better opportunities?
seriously, what were you paying these people that your costs only went up 10%?

Our sweaters start at $1000.

You won't find our sweaers in any Apparel Showroom or Department Store. We won't even sell to Nordstroms or N-M.

It's not all about costs to us.

It is about design and quality.

like it or not, your people let something seriously go wrong in that carolina factory that the quality declined. i have been able to get diamonds produced in nyc where other people settled for dreck. in most cases, you get out what you put in. hands on involvement matters.
sounds like very poor management. the issues of decline in quality and difficulty in recruiting workers should have been addressed before they got out of hand, if only to protect your product. obviously they let things slip. that's unfortunate.
you'd have lines around the block if you looked to hire people in brooklyn for that much money. training people properly and finding good staff takes effort yes, it often seems easier to go to china where they'll promise to do anything cheaper if you give them the business.

I would tie knots for $10/hour.

My wife will be the first person to hand in an application. Does the $17 include benefits or is it $17+ bennies?

Jay

There are a lot of us here in Michigan who would beg for the work.

My husband has been unemployed since February and right now he is desperately hoping to get a TEMP job that pays $14 an hour. The only problem is that there have been 10 times as many applicants as actual jobs.

Why is an image of a $6K shower curtain dancing through my brain :evilgrin:

Is your real name Rumplestiltskin?

Of course, if you've visited the facilities where they were doing the work, maybe you have first-hand evidence otherwise. But a lot of production work has resorted to taking shortcuts NOT because the workers are lazy, but because the employers have unrealistically shortened the amount of time work should take or actually advised their employees to take those shortcuts.

As a knitter, I know how much time is involved in doing things the "right" way and I can completely understand why short-sighted employers would encourage their workers to take shortcuts.

in the furniture factories and IT. We just have to keep on the backs of lazy Americans or else they will just knock off.

do you mean an american company won't do the knotting?

And we don't want transient illegals doing our work. Consistency of quality is the overriding issue.

You would not believe how frustrating this has been.

how to knit? Or weave? Or make hand made rugs? I'm sure there are craftspersons out there that can do the job in America if that is what you are really looking for.

To be honest, I think your company and others find ways to justify your practices. How do you feel about people making mere pennies a day? How do you feel about putting Americans out of work? Doesn't that bother your conscience at all?

Did you even bother to read my posts?

Condemning me like that?

Do you know what we pay our Chinese workers (we own the factory and pay them 4 times the prvailing wage for handwork).

We didn't put those lazy ass S Carolinians out of work. When the older workers retired, there was no one to take their place.

What knowledge have you of my business?

We have tried for years to get lazy motherfucking Americans to tie knots for $17/hr.

You have insulted me and I am pissed off.

Coming at me on a subject (the world of $1000 sweaters) that you obviously know nothing about.

TomInTib, and I live in Cal., in fact, in Lake Co. I do my own spinning, knitting and felting from home. Nothing here offers $17/hr.; the office job I had paid $10/hr with no benefits and I had to deal with asshats. Average saleries run around $8-10/hr. here.

I think there are lots of craftspeople out there who could do this type of work, especially in rural area with few other jobs. Older women who need to support themselves would be those for whom I would look. Just a suggestion, don't know if it helps.

and what they like to get paid. I know nothing about sweaters, but I do know several places where you could find employees more than willing to learn to tie a few knots for that pay. They're called casuals, and they work for the USPS. They make less than that sorting your company's mail- and I know you would treat them better than they're being treated right now.

In other words:

+ You didn't look hard enough for willing employees.

+ You're not willing to train untrained employees to tie knots in a particular manner (!!)

+ You're not willing to hire your own employees to tie some knots, and instead must rely on an outer source.

Again, this isn't about sweaters... these particular points are about employees. I bet you could find plenty of people in the service sectors of the economy who would be more than willing to learn how to do it for the money you're paying the Chinese workers. You seem to have forgotten about things like training on the job.

"When the older workers retired, there was no one to take their place."

Because you weren't willing to train them correctly and slowly fill the slots that were opening up with younger, newer help. I see this aaaalllllll the time in my own job- the people in charge aren't willing to take the time to teach the new employees, and then they piss and moan when the help isn't available.

This all sounds like your own fault to me, and I say that with some authority, because I deal with exactly this mentaily on a daily basis. It isn't the workers, pal.... it's you.

in the US, they don't do as much as they used to, primarily sew and construct high end mens suits. Who the hell buys $1000 sweaters anyway, I would love to know what his margin is but he is probably to embarrassed to say.

I'm a hard worker and far from lazy. And I'm sure there are plenty of people like me who would kill for a $17 an hour job!

Justify what your company is doing all you want. But you should know that you sound NO different than Bill Gates or GM or any of the business that have screwed over American workers. Sorry, but I'm not buying it that you have exhausted ALL the possibilities of hiring workers here in the states. I have NO doubt that if you tried you could find employees that would satisfactorily, not to mention beautifully, do the work for you here.

BTW-your post pissed me off mightily too. As a matter of fact I was being fairly polite when I replied to you and held back if you want to know the real truth!

Tom has decided you are not reliable.

what reason do the companies in the US give for not wanting to do the job? I don't doubt you, it just makes me wonder why they won't do it. The pay you mentioned seems very high for the job, and believe me, if I were able, it's one I would be happy to do.

I know that when my now 44 year old son was in college, he and a friend earned money every summer doing yard work. They started out with a lawn mower given to them by the friend's dad, and went on to buy another one, plus weed eaters and edgers. This was in Spring, Tx, which is brutally hot in the summer. They had been unable to find other summer jobs, so they worked from dawn to dusk doing this work. I was very proud of them, because rather than complain about the lack of jobs in the 80's economy, they went out and provided a service that other people wanted, and were willing to pay to have done.

When my daughter was working on getting a degree, she signed on with a company which provided make ready work for apartment complexes, and cleaned apartments so new tenants could move in. The work was exhausting, but all of my kids have been willing to do just about anything legal in order to reach their goals. It's strange, isn't it, that some people will do any work they are capable of out of necessity, and others refuse to do work they consider beneath them. Your company sounds like one of the good guys, willing to pay a decent wage for a decent day's work.

But to answer your question, we have been absolutely unable to find people in the US to do the quality work we require for about 10 years.

Americans don't want to do endlessly repetitive piece ork like ours and Hispanics are too transient - not in a negative way, but they just haven't worked out.

I cannot convey how frustrating this issue has been.

Sorry to be so late in responding, but I became so agitated at the ignorant, knee-jerk responses to my post earlier today that I just turned off my computer.

I know what I am talking about and, in stating a fact, ran into an immature, wholly unrealistic buzzsaw.

Wow, just wow. Poor management and you scapegoat the workers and blame Hispanics.
It is what it is.

That statement is hyperbole and it's no surprise that such statements attract knee-jerk responses. You may not have been able to find the right factory in the states to do your work but categorically stating that it's because Americans just won't do it is just wrong. Having witnessed the demise of the domestic shoe factories in Maine, always with the same sort of corporate justification for moving the work overseas, it's no surprise to me that some here struggle to accept the explanations you offered.

As valid as your business choice may be with current conditions in the textile industry, the root reason that you can't source it to South Carolina these dayse is more likely that younger workers have grown up in an era when domestic factories are cutting back on wages and benefits and getting shuttered in favor of overseas production -- there seems to be more long term job security working at the mall.

"Americans don't want to do endlessly repetitive piece ork like ours "

health and safety regulations.

In China there are no such regulations. However, there is a nasty little surprise waiting for you in the not so distant future. Some of that is starting today. In 2005, there were 85,000 demonstrations. Many of those demonstrations were against factories supplying export goods. Workers were tired of the exploitation. You forget that many of these workers are the grand children of the workers who mobilized for better conditions. These workers got co-opted into the Communist movement. Popular support for Communism was generated by the exploitation in the 1920's by factories supplying goods for export. He who forgets history is condemned to repeat it.

There's a big difference, and having worked in sales, I learned the difference quickly. Every sales in amerika says something along the lines of "salary potential of $200,000", that purposely misrepresents the reality that you might realistically expect to make $40,000 - $60,000, if you're good and willing to put in the 80+ hours, if you're new or not a good liar, expect to make about $20,000 until they fire you.

I know nothing about sweaters and knots, but at a starting price of $1,000, there are some impressive margins being realized by someone, and they aren't willing to take some of the pain in order to get the people you claim to want.

A friend of mine is a sociology prof at a major university and every semester she has the class do an investigation of the local cost of living, and compute the wage required for a single mother with one child to live. The parameters are very strict, no luxuries, 10 year old car, cheapest child-care, rent a 1 bedroom apartment in average neighborhood, etc.
In 10+ years, the lowest figure they've come up with is $22 p/hr.

It's not that Amercians won't do the jobs, just that we need to be paid to compensate for whaterver the job is.

Listen to Bush - I heard him say jobs that Americans aren't doing. He no longer says jobs that Americans won't do.

That kind of talk is an insult to the American worker.

and ride to gentry arkansas, about 50 miles one way and pick strawberries for a nickle a quart. shit I even spriged bermuda grass as a kid, picked blackberry for a dime a gallon. these folks talking about the jobs americans won't do are totally out of touch, or in denial one.

and we thought we were getting overpaid.

before you speak. WhenI lived in CA years ago, the conditions and the pay were ssssoooo bad, not too many people would believe it unless you saw it. The "illegals"were housed in shacks (no elec., no water, no plumbing), they were treated and looked upon as sub-humans. If you had to work under these conditions, would you?? The people that I saw worked from sun up til sundown in the sun with thier children. Bathroom breaks?? Forget it! I lived there and I saw this abuse of "illegals". I still feel the outrage,but the landowners and the "good old boy" attitude still go on. Except, now that attitude has ,sadly taken over the white house. My God, this still gives me a headache and a heartache, after leaving CA 25 years ago.

"job Americans won't do".

But whrn I hear "jobs Americans won`t do", it takes me back to what I saw out there. Sorry, guess some times I just have to vent!:blush:

the italians were used for cheap labor ..
the irish were used for cheap labor
the polish were used for cheap labor..

go down the list in our history...

they were used for domestic cleaning..and the shittiest jobs..

until they formed groups to protect themselves..called unions!!

and when they all started talking among themselves..about their quality of life..

so each group brought about their own power..by organizing..and demanding a better quality of life...

thats what has made us who we are..

or who we used to be...each generation has worked to make it better for the next generation...

until now..no we are going seriously backwards...because maybe some of us got to damn comfortable..and because maybe it was too dang easy for some of us..

i fear my generation is so letting down our youth..and our legacy will be horrible..to future generations...

because we were to comfortable to give a damn!

i see it among most of my peers..i am the only one who fights for those with less..among all my friends ..and peers..and honestly ..i am the freak to them..because they really don't give a shit ...

as long as they have their piece of the pie..they don't give a rats ass if kids go to bed hungry in the richest nation in the world...or have no heatlh care..

we are truely the most selfish, wasteful, and ignorant people in the world today i fear...

fly

It breaks my heart to think that there are people who just have to die,because there is no health care for them. They do not want to leave bills behind, so they let go. There is something so wrong with this picture.Supposedly the richest country in the world. Just take a look at the Katrina victims to know where our priorities are.

Just check out the thread about oranges not being picked in Florida.

If you try to make Americans work for less than minimum wage,
and your workplace is full of OSHA safety violations, you may
get Americans to work for you, but they'll call the wage-and-hour
people and OSHA on you because you are breaking the law.

"Illegals" will be quiet about all your wage and safety violations
because they don't want to be deported.

haliburton and co. hired mexicans to clean up toxic sites..and when they worked their balls off in god knows whoat toxic's they were exposed to ..they were put on buses and not paid..and then threatened..you want to complain..we will get you deported..so stfu...

so they were bodily exposed to horrible conditions and then not paid for it...

welcome to * world...

then try telling that to other americans..they don't want to hear about it.. ..or refuse to look at the truth..it might befuddle their little minds..to wrap their precious little minds about the abuse this administration and the corporations they pander to... are subjecting people to in this country...

they will say..they are illegals..so what...

so tell me ..where were the Americans fighting these corps from doing this to other human beings??

FLY

You could bring litigation on their behalf, but the victims won't come forward for fear of deportation.

We have all heard these stories, but how do we fight that sort of thing?

neighbors..get them all to call and raise holy hell..go to meetings where congress people are and get in their faces...get mad as hell...and do something ..its up to all of us to get out and do something...

i get in congress peoples faces all the time..and even when their is no question answer time...i ask a questions..and i demand answers...

i write it down and had it to them..and i say i want answers..and i usually get them eventually..but they know i am watching..

i will not be put off by them..i call but i go to meetings where i know they are speaking..
and yes sometimes people get mad i am demanding answers..but i don't give a rats ass..

make them uncomfortable...make others pay attention..

thats all we can do..but it makes others aware..and makes our so called representatives know we are watching and paying attention..

get in their faces!

fly

It's as if they were sitting at a banquet table with a seven course meal in front of them, and they begrudge someone else a saltine cracker.

Obviously one of the most distasteful employments possible, and if the job itself is not bad enough, I live in the desert, it has been over 100° and he had to crawl into the tank to do the inspection. He does this all day, every day.

Joe is happy to do it and has done it for almost 15 years. Why? he makes about $90K and lives a good life.

Joe I don't think would do it for $25,000 a year or less.

We have twisted, or allowed to be twisted, the idea of the free market from it's purpose of allowing competition, supply, and demand, to determine relative value, to the monstrosity where the suppliers have no competition and manipulate the supply in order to dictate price.

Joe should never have to do this job for $25,000, but if we continue to allow this manipulation, eventually Joe's employer will find some hapless desperate and illegal alien that will do it. BTW, I'm willing to bet serious cash that Joe's employer will not reduce what he charges me to reflect his newfound windfall.

In amerika very few, if any, positions pay what they are worth. Why is that?

Probably for MUCH less than Joe does, but at least I got laborer's union scale.

Especially when there's a team. So many people would rather point to the other guy and say "he can/should do it" instead of rolling up their sleeves and pitching in. I see these big strong guys in the weightroom working on their biceps and pecs, but when it is time for them to move some tables or pick up a dance floor - it is cry, cry, cry.

Another person I worked with was always complaining about the low pay, but she could not/would not keep up with her job. She sat around, walked slow, went to break early, etc.

Lots of times I hear people brag about how easy their job is. Because if you can get paid big bucks for doing almost nothing, this makes you some kind of hero in our society.

The average amerikan CEO makes more before lunch on Jan. 1, than a minimum wage worker makes, working full-time, all year. Disgusting.

That's what that phrase actually means.

It's not my fault the cost of living in America is skewed with the rest of the world.

Other countries get decent computers for $200 whereas we pay 4x as much. They get DSL for pennies on the dollar...

Based on that, I would have to say no. It was grubby, gross work, and I caught quite a few viruses while I worked there. And that is far from the worst job out there. Compared to working in a meat-processing plant, for example, cleaning the daycare was downright luxurious.

Other jobs I have held that paid minimum wage: cleaning office buildings, stacking boxes in a liquor store (while the boss told me that he was annoyed that the placement office sent a woman to work for him because he always hired men!), cleaning deep fryers at a restaurant, scraping sludge out of trash cans without gloves...

There are a lot of disgusting jobs that Americans will do for very little money. Anyone who claims otherwise is completely out of touch with what reality is like for the millions of Americans living at or below the poverty level.

What they mean is, as so many others have already said, that there are jobs that Americans won't do because they pay below minimum wage and violate safety standards. The solution is not getting rid of the "illegals", the solution is getting rid of jobs that violate workplace laws!

... shill for bush or the repub party.

However, I would do & have done grueling manual labor to put food on the table. Problem today is that grueling manual labor puts the food on the CEO's table, instead of the workers' tables.

There are, however, jobs American's won't do for sub-living wages with no benefits.

But that aspect is hardly ever discussed by our liberal media.

I think the answer has to be no - we'll do anything for money.

you should come over and clean my apartment!

Americans actually prefer to go bankrupt than work at hard manual labor, right?

People actually prefer to go homeless rather than work hard, right?

I've been in discussions with liberal Democrats and some of them will say it as well. It seems to be one of those things that has just been said so many times that some people will repeat it without thinking.

but slavery and survival of the fittest is what being tough is all about! :tinfoilhat:

and I won't work in the petrochemical industry