When Does Religious Indoctrination Become Child Abuse?

Just looking through the list of films for Michael Moore's fest and came across this "Jesus Camp" which is basically about these fundie "summer camps" for homeschooled kids where they try to do the same thing that the hard-core Muslim schools do, in other words, teach children to grow up with the attitude that they will die for their religion.

A very sick idea IMO...more here.

http://movies2.nytimes.com/gst/movies/movie.html?v_id=342517

...I think that ALL of it is fundamentally abusive in the same way that Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny is; A lie told to children that keeps them from accepting reality.

But then again, i grew up with Linus and Chuck.

Children form their models of how reality works early. Feeding them fantasy skews those models for life.

I consider people considering Santa Claus to be abusive is, somewhat, abusive.

I think you should only tell children the truth about the world.

But then again I find the idea that "Santa Claus is abusive" to be more fundamentally dishonest than Santa Claus himself.

No. That is a fairy tale. I've seen how children react when they learn that it was a fairy tale, too. They cry. Their whole little world seems to be shattered. And many times they realize that the people they trusted most LIED to them.

I've never seen a kid crying from being told Santa Claus isn't real. Usually they figure it out on their own and think it's all very silly.

She was OUTRAGED that we lied to her. I'll never do that again, not with my grands (when I have them), nor with any child. She told me that she would far, far rather we had told her the truth than perpetuated the lie for so long.

My oldest was blase, took it all in stride. I never would have guessed there are children out there who would react like my youngest one did.

I'm the youngest so when I found out I felt like everyone else was kind of mocking me, putting up this big thing. In our house we kind of wink-wink about Santa -- they always KNEW it was daddy playing Santa. What's weird is that a lot of people got pissed that we didn't enforce the traditional lie so we had to tell my oldest daughter to not tell any more of her friends that Santa was daddy etc. I think it's a nice tradition that has become something of a monster as things have got more material, etc.

fairy tales, all fiction should be totally eliminated from young children's lives? No more Cinderella, no more Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs, no more Sesame Street?

There are parents who take the whole Santa Claus thing to a weird extreme. We did Santa Claus with our kids, but also said things like Mom and Dad help out Santa, and oh, by the way, the Santas you see on the street corner or in a mall are regular people dressing up like Santa to help him out because he can't be everywhere. I do think trying to convince a child that the mall Santas are the real thing is silly.

Parents are Santa's helpers, because even if he had a magic sleigh, there's no way he could make it everywhere on Christmas. (this was explained when I caught my Mom filling the stockings when I was 4). Parents also have to give money to Santa for presents, because nothing in life is free. (this cleverly explains the lean years when there isn't much under the tree).

So we always knew he wasn't really real, but pretending was fun.

It's hard to say how much and for how long my kids actually believed the story. I finally told the older one what I was quite certain he already knew, when he was in fourth grade, but suggested we not let his younger brother (four years younger) know the truth yet. Younger brother tells me he'd pretty much figured it out by the time he was six, and I probably admitted it a year later to him.

Your parents REALLY did it the right way. Keep the myth, and keep the reality.

Just how do you teach kids about creativity, imagination and stepping outside of their tiny tinny young universe? How do you get them to dream dreams, to imagine the mountains, the cities, the aliens, the monsters in the ocean, the fairies and much more?

I agree that we should teach kids about science fact, reality and give them the best understanding of our world as we understand it. But I also think that kids should be read to, pushed to new vistas, caused to imagine the unimaginable. To use their creativity and to be strong enough emotionally to dare ask why are great goals for every child. And once they are comfortable reading on their own, they should be given every opportunity to soar between the pages of fairy tales, myths and fiction.

I felt tricked and lied to when I found out Santa Claus was a lie.

I think in dysfunctional families where trust is a real big issue, a child is more likely to have this reaction. I used to work with a fundie, and strangely enough, this was one thing we agreed on; that we both didn't like the idea of telling children the Santa Claus lie.

Another thing, if Santa gives toys to children who are "good", what about the poor kid who was good but his parents can't afford the toy(s) he asked for? Is he to conclude that Santa must have thought he was bad, otherwise Santa would've brought the toys?

which someone else can argue is "fantasy". whether or not we agree if religion is a "fantasy" is beside the point. Science can be argued to be another form of reality; it answers certain sets of questions. I don't think schooling 6 year olds advanced philosophical arguments regarding ontology is the answer...children create rich fantasy worlds of their own. You can teach them to deconstruct reality later on.

It's really interesting to see young kids challenge the idea of santa claus--to watch their logic at work. I have a nephew who was going through this last christmas, and the parents didn't lie to him, just kept encouraging him to question the official line.

you sure seem to have your mind made up.

...my determination that the Universe appears to neither require nor contain a God is falsifiable by new data.

I don't expect to see that new data, but I am receptive to it if it does appear.

In fact, it would be totally fascinating to learn that there is a God (or Gods) and that there is some sort of afterlife! I would look on antigravity or time travel with equal wonderment.

I found the thread title to be redundant. Religious indoctrination = child abuse, ipso facto.

Earlier here, I referenced a 700 Club show (I watch it to get my blood pressure up) wherein a family trotted out their obedient 3 yr old to have her confess to many mortal sins, and claim that she was born again.

This type of child abuse breeds fear, irrational thinking, baseless fear, refusal to acknowledge scientific fact, and more fear, It makes possible such idiots who promote Intel Design and Creationism. It makes people tithe out of guilt. It deforms and harms scientific research.

Even worse, it allows them to claim the moral high ground, simply because they believe in make believe gods, while accusing atheists and agnostics like me of being incapable of having morals, ethics, or a sense of right or wrong.

I have often heard parents say they wanted a child so they could have some thing of their own. We hardly own them and can only guide them. Or am I just too liberal?

Ever listen to some parents talk about their kids "I want MY child to learn MY religion like I was taught. and What's this Jr, Shit? A kid is a junior,why is he to be a mini me for his daddy? Why can't the kid have his own unique identity without parents telling Don't say that Don't feel that way,don't learn that stuff,Don't talk like that, Don't disagree,don't dress like that,Don't change, Don't have a mind and body of your own, Don't be who you are ever..(it all amounts to a subtle or not so subtle demand to be like me(the parent) or don't embarrass me in from of other people I am impressed by or don't become too different than people I think are impressive).

I mean sure parents NEED to teach kids how to not run into traffic,to feed themselves,share, read or how to have relationships with others without causing alot of problems,how to draw boundaries,but dammit let them be who they are,even if you the parent fear it,can't understand it, or don't like it,as long as the kid ain't a bully or a sociopath ,or causing real danger I mean life threatening danger,like a crack addiction or suicide,let the kid explore the world..and learn from mistakes and discover whom he is. A peeve of mine..why is it a pain in the ass in this culture,to throw away the name your parents plastered onto you at birth if you don't like it?

Some parents seem to like the idea of owning or dominating a child ,but most will never admit it consciously ,they like the idea of having complete control and dominion over a little vulnerable,dependant person and making a mini me of them, by force if not persuasion ..I think it's done because it's one way parents can live forever... through the minds and lives not lived(the child's own life) of their offspring.Because children are loyal up to a certain age,they can be molded by that trust and loyalty they have for a parent.Some parents take advantage of this. And It makes me very very angry. Kids are not property they are people who deserve human rights and the right to find out or be who they are,be safe, and not be coerced or mistreated.Ironically statistically most children who are abused are abused by thier own parents or caretakers in the most private areas of the home.

http://www.grad.berkeley.edu/deans/mason/booksfathersintroduction.shtml

I've noticed that and will add that people who spend umpteen billion dollars on fertility treatments so they can have "a child of their own" instead of adopting, kind of seem egotistical when there are so many orphans out there. They want a mini-me.

Some people are not cut out to be parents,they don't have the temperment..or mental stability for kids,but they have kids to take care of THEIR own emotional needs.Because they are unhappy,lonely,or not getting their needs met in their life or relationship they have a baby. As if a new baby will fixit up and erase the stress and problems inside an adult's mind or heart or fix an adult relationship going sour..

It seems kinda sadistic for unhappy parents who can't deal with themselves or their own emotions or deal with each other with any intimacy or honesty to bring an innocent baby into a hellish relationship that is unhappy already is nuts.It's really sad on all levels especially when there is birth control ,morning after pills and abortion are available..A wanted kid might not be wanted for who they are,but for what they can do for the parents,So basically the kid IS unwanted,because they are not wanted for who they are they are born to serve a parental need,this does not respect a baby's person hood. To me this kind of self serving motive for bringing a child into a dangerous crazy world like this one is,is really sick and setting up the child to risk being wounded in some way.

Sometimes being a good parent is knowing yourself and admitting you are not cut out to raise kids.

I don't ever want kids,because I would not make a good parent.
People tell me I am great with kids,and their kids like me,get all happy when I come over..and all.
But I don't think I am great enough with kids to go and raise one myself. When you visit others kids,they are not yours.. you can go home and unwind, But if the kid is there 24-7,needing your time,attention and all you never get a chance to be you.

Kids are demanding because of who they are,they're young,and I think communal care (like Native Americans did) is way better way to raise up people than the nuclear family property model because if kids are raised by many people who all live near each other and know each other well, the biological parents get time to decompress and work on their relationships.

While those who are good with kids in short bursts can share the burden of the attention demands of being around kids.And kids can play with other kids..and not be so bored and drive their parents nuts..

"Native Americans have a very high regard for children," he says. "In the Lakota language, the word for child means 'standing sacred.' Children are treated respectfully and there is no punishment. This is in contrast to the Dickensonian approach to child-rearing brought to this country by the English. Adults felt they had to punish children to shape them.
http://www.turtletrack.org/Issues01/Co11032001/CO_11032001_Childrearing.htm

Any parent screaming at their kid to shut up isn't seeing the'standing sacred' inside the kid anymore. Standing sacred means to me the independent,unique Sacred person hood in all people that stands tall and great if it is respected as sacred and precious and not to be bullied from day one..

We sure did not grew up as my father property but I sure have seen and heard people say their children were their property. Madness in my way of thinking.

and Frank McCourt wrote about being taught to die for his religion and for Ireland and wondering why nobody ever wanted him to live for anything in "Angela's Ashes." It's certainly not a new phenomenon.

What may be new is programming the kiddies to go out and look for opportunities to die for their religion, and the world is full of those. Proselytizing in Afghanistan is one way to accomplish it. Other countries are a little more reasonable and simply expel Christian soldiers when they're spotted and jail them if they try to do it again.

Any religious indoctrination that relies on sleep deprivation, undernutrition, or physical violence can be considered child abuse, and most of these Christian Soldier boot camps do all three and really need to be shut down.

Without the physical pressure, the indoctrination will be the same as what McCourt and I got in the Irish Catholic church and most kids will be sensible enough to shake it off.

after all the sex abuse scandals, the theft, the frauds and other crimes committed by the clergy, not to mention the deliberate policy of cover-up, denial, and transferring of pedophiles to other parishes, even countries, Ireland is seriously consdering some drastic anti-religious steps. The church going population has never been smaller, nor the distrust and hatred of the clergy higher. It is a quiet revolution of rationality and Rome is not happy about it at all.

than the Pope. I know it's changing, I have friends there even if the family is long gone. Getting divorce was a really big deal and considered a triumph of reason over superstition. The more the clergy fight against modernization, the more the resentment will build.

It's funny watching my own family. The first generation to come over had mobs of kids with them. The second one saw the fertility rate drop like a rock. It's been the same in most Irish families I know. Rome lost that war and refuses to admit it.

I think even the Irish church so entrenched on the east coast has had to moderate quite a bit from when I was a kid. It's a shame, really. They were so good at producing atheists.

It would be extremely healthy for the US to have the same debate. But I doubt the religious here would like to support their irrational beliefs ina real, honest and full debate. Too embarrassing, I suspect.

Just like the madrastra schools, they keep them away from any enlightenment or reason, it's all DIE FOR GOD indoctrination, they are so isolated. Can you imagine being homeschooled by fundie nutbar parents. What an awful, isolated, sufficating environment.

An accurate description. Let's hope it catches on.

I've been reading Jon Krakauer's "Under the Banner of Heaven," which is largely about Fundamentalist Mormon sects in Utah. The Fundamentalist Mormons are the ones who continue to practice polygamy even though the main denomination condemned it over 100 years ago. These sickos will "marry" themselves to 12- or 14-year-old girls, sometimes their own daughters, and impregnate them. Understandably, miscarriages and certain birth defects are very common among these populations. But they believe God told them to do it, and any laws that keep them from doing it are the work of Satan.

that what they are doing is basically the same fundamental practice of the islamic fundamentalist.... what i have seen develop in htis town is scary..... not a lot of people are seeing what is happening, it is beneath the surface, though not well hidden people pretend. they dont want to see.

i have watched it. my kids experienced it.... all in the name of the lord

I would say comparing these camps to teaching kids to become suicide bombers is way off base. How did you come to that conclusion?

As far it being child abuse, I disagree with that as well. I won't be sending my children to a camp like that, but I won't stand in the way if others want too. It is their choice and as long as they don't require kids that aren't their own to go, I could care less.

From the Michael Moore film fest blurb:

Hello Mudda, Hello Fadda, I'm definitely NOT at Camp Grenada. No, the "Kids On Fire" camp in North Dakota has a different mission: to train children as young as five to be soldiers in God's Army. Pentecostal Pastor Becky Fisher, who runs the camp, admits an admiration for the way militant Islamists raise children so devoted they will risk their lives for their faith.

Indoctrinating children that other people are evil and need to be destroyed, no matter what or how? Teaching kids they have to die for their religious, to kill others? To even overthrow the government? I have relatives who send their kids to these camps -- that si EXACTLY what they teach them. It's the same kind of place that breeds McVeighs. And, if you replaced "Jesus" with "Allah"? The Feds would be tearing the place apart. It is EXACTLY like teaching your son that 40 virgins await him if he martyrs himself.

And yes, it is child abuse. Any indoctrination into evil is.

state of terror of living.

If we use that standard, the right can say Al Gore is causing child abuse by making kids afraid of what Global Warming will do to us.

I don't happen to agree with many christians politically, but I'm not going to say they should be prevented from sending their kids to a religious summer camp by claiming its child abuse, thats fairly absurd.

It's "Soldiers Of God" indoctrination and not that much different than they do with Islamic Fundie schools which according to the director IS THEIR INSPIRATION AT THIS CAMP.

IMO it's no wonder the Fundie Xtians are so in with Rev Moon, they use his same tactics, and it really makes my blood boil to think of kids growing up in these kinds of sick cults.

exposed to these conditions, just don't understand what growing up in a fundie household is. So consequently they do not understand the enemy.

When the movie "Saved" came out, I had to explain to my Seattle-raised, progressive-Catholic-school-attending husband that high schools like that really did exist, as did camps where parents sent their gay children to "re-educate" them.

The church I was raised in if it was found out you were gay, it was just accepted that your soul was lost and you would burn in hell, so you were just kicked out and written off. :o :evilgrin: :nopity:

I was attending church in the early days of the AIDS crisis, when we were taught on Sundays that the disease was a gift from God to rid the world of the homosexual scourge. Definitely no enlightenment there.

Fred Phelps is just the ugly face of what you'll hear in a lot of pretty, white clapboard churches on Sunday morning.

I was being subjected to this stuff beginning in the late 50's. But you are correct, Fred Phelps just publicly says what most fundies believe but have to dress up for presentation in a political context.

I will try and get around to spending some time reading it in the next couple of days but for now the bushes in the front of the house are calling.

what kind of religion tells newborn babies they are scum and no matter how well they live their lives they will go to hell
unless they practice one specific religion.

these people hate their own children.

Msongs
www.msongs.com/6for2008.htm

Really, it is totally sick, this type of "Christianity." The ultimate passive-aggressive sick thing to do to a kid.

I actually heard this in a pizza shop in Fredericksburg, VA. The child had bumped into his mother, who said this after making him apologize to her for being clumsy.

Alas, it has become a standard phrase in our household.

:evilgrin:

When I was a kid I was seriously into animals,I had a real menagerie,2 cats ,a dalmatian named Mikey(cause he would eat ANYTHING you gave him,even a lemon slice when he ate that,he got the name)I had 4 chickens ,One of them I adored a Jungle fowl rooster named Blackie,

I had a raccoon,Bandit ,a canary,2 parakeets,two love birds,a flying squirrel,a boa and a garter snake ,an iguana,two rats and a mouse,a box turtle,some aquatic frogs,two 40 gallon aquariums,one saltwater with cute little puffers,and anemones and clown fish yellow and purple half and half fish, bright blue fish,a yellow tang,And one freshwater full of neon tetras, angel fish and glass cats.

Two smaller fishtanks with a bright velvety red siamese fighting fish and three females,and another with a oscar fish.My room was full of cages and stuff and it was alot of work to maintain all these animals,and it was a noise riot waking up the minute blackie crowed from the coop outside, and I loved them all dearly,they kept me sane and busy in my very abusive house growing up.They saved my life.. And I went to sunday school.
I had asked the wrong questions of the teacher before and she'd sidestep it almost every time. But the day she told us about Noah's ark I lost it.

She described the process of selection about righteousness.
I of course asked another thorny question,I asked why did the animals die the ones not on the ark? How can an animal be unrighteous? They are not like us. Who made sure god didn't leave any good ones to die? Why did he drown the whole world? What happened to the trees and grass did it die too? How can grass be Evil?

I told her I never met an evil animal in my life. (everybody knew my sister worked with animals) I told her I met animals that were treated bad and got mean because the people that had it were bad people,or hurt animals yeah they can act mean,but they are just hurt and scared they are not mean really,and I told her wild animals act mean cause they are scared of people and don't know,but they are not evil.. but.but Animals are not evil like people are..How do you know if an animal is evil,animals bite for good reasons too or they don't trust you yet.(I was a regular at the park rehab where my sister rehabbed animals and later I would help out there and assist a local vet for a summer)In other words I knew something about animals,she didn't.

She stammered ..and said god was who chose which animals were to go on the ark because he made them.. And I asked well why didn't god care about the ones not on the ark didn't he love them too,god made them why didn't he just make them understand how to be good instead of killing them all??
She stammered and I began to see images of my cats,Mikey the chickens,the boa,My raccoon bandit,even the little fawn I helped bottle feed at the park rehab with my sister, little kittens,little babies,all swept under the rising water to die crying for someone anyone to help but no one coming because god thought they were evil.A flood that god put there to kill off the people he didn't like and I thought I was gonna cry right there..instead I blurted out "I hate god he's mean,an asshole!!"(my father cussed so I knew what those words meant,they were designed to hurt if they were aimed at a person personally)

To save face,I ran out into the cornfield and cried my eyes out I just wanted to go home and make sure all my animal friends were safe...The teacher called my mom she took me home,In the car I told her why I was so upset..she tried to lie and say god wouldn't kill my pets they are not evil..When I got home I hugged all my pets and told them God is a monster and I hate him and I told my pets I was better than god because I won't kill you just to get back at bad people.. And a few days later I found out I was kicked out of sunday school.Mom never pushed religion after that. My father being a drunk asshole used to tell me I was demonic,a haint,all sorts of religious based hate words.

And My neighbor was a fundie pedophile.So For me religion in the hands of adults has been a horrible spiritually destroying weapon that destroyed my sense of trust and self for a long time.The coercion from adults and their religions ruined 'religion' for me forever. So I cannot be a Christian in good conscience,Every religions gods seem to be an abuser,even jesus comes back to kill off tons of people in Revelations and pick his favorites and leave the rest to suffer like the old testament god.. the pagan gods are rapists,pedophiles,eaters of children,or demand bloody sacrifices..

The gods of this world,the makers and movers are to me Evil. If I seek a god at all,For me to trust it, it has to be transcendent and not of this world..Not like this world and not responsible for the way this world is and not in control of it.I don't trust ANY gods that mix up good and evil,do evil and say it's righteous.

Gnosticism,and hermeticism I can relate to,Gnostic especially because it says there are two gods and the creator of this world is an evil control freak making a fake reality overlaying and mixing with the good real one,it's the fake reality intruding upon the good that hurts the spiritual people.
Gnostic's say animals have souls.Some forms of gnosis gives me more satisfying answers than all is one or other typical religious responses I have studied to learn about the problem of evil.

that was very emotional for me.

ick

I know of many Fundies who do treat their own children like this, but considering I've been to christian camps as a kid, I think this is probably a pretty isolated event. The messages that I recieved there from growing up were all positive, and not anything like the teachings of this ultra-fundamentalists.

My mom was a "liberal" Christian primitive baptist. They don't believe a kid can choose to be saved until he is 21.
I went to a "primitive baptist" sunday school,that was very liberal.
Primitive baptists are not like the ultra fundies..
But..They told the same bible stories found in every bible.
And it was the way god was portrayed in the bible itself that upset me.
Read the post..

Complex concepts of life death obedience,power, evil,good,they can mess up a kids mind because unlike adults they are not developed in reasoning skills yet,they lack life experiences in which to relate the religious teachings to so it is different in a kids mind than an adult. Kids don't come prepackaged with theology degrees. Teaching kids religion is harmful to kids because of the natures of belief itself and the way the world is. A kid can't reason through it like an adult can. The kids are disadvantaged emotionally,intellectually,and experientially,and the religions take full advantage that lack of knowing ..This why it's all indoctrination.Until the child can form on his own why he would agree or disagree ,with a religion,teaching him complex religious concepts before he has the capacity to understand what it means to him,whether he wants to obey or not, and does not know how protect his person from manipulation by adults is wrong.It's an abuse of power.

Are there OK kinds of indoctrination?

Yeah, it's sick, but what are you going to do? Make laws that dictate how to raise children?

Our culture is sick,making laws would just reinforce what is sick.
I think the problem is the way some people see other people as means to an end to get what they want.It's a problem with people as kids being taught to not respecting others sacred person hood as equals.

It is a generational sickness we all suffer from here.Laws can't fix this problem.Laws are part of the problem of society as in they sometimes foster obedience without question. We need to QUESTION ourselves,and get deep question authority,power,and restructure society itself in a more human way instead of a property way..That sickness is self perpetuating as in we do it like others did and we don't question why.

So until people who are making the next generation have the courage to introspect and find out WHY they need to buck the system,get some real honesty inside,learn to put some boundaries around relationships,find out what they want in life, who they are,,than they can question the validity of power and the social institutions that take advantage, of kids.. When humanity learns to respect and care about others as their equals,even those that are different,vulnerable disabled,sick or whatever, and than maybe they can learn to respect the sacred person hood of a child like they respect their own person hood.

These changes must come from within individuals who are looking at themselves,being honest about their own flaws and fears, asking themselves why do they believe certain things, why do they feel things and do as they do in response to it.Who is the person inside them..Until you ask questions in yourself.. choosing a different way than the one society says is the right way to be will only be partly seen.

Than maybe over time as the picture comes out and the nightmare recedes in more numbers of people,and the acceptance of unique person hood and respect and equality grows the culture itself may change .When the old way of childrearing dies away and as parents learn what their own person hood is, and what it means to them,to be a person,than kids may be treated as human beings again..

If you really think that Sunday School = child abuse, there's no reasoning with you.

So, hold the insults, please. We are saying that allowing children's to go to "Christian" HJ meetings should be classified as child abuse. If you don't understand the difference between learning about God is Love and Noah's Ark and what the article refers to, then there's no reasoning with you.

And yes, I do know what you mean. That's why I wrote my post.

See how it works? If you don't believe anything is worth dying for, you cannot beleive anything is worth killing for.

As are low wages, high cost of higher education, bad schools and limited access to contraception.

Gotta keep pumping out those little soldiers, the rich kids aren't going to die for the "cause" which of course is always more money for people who alreayd have a lot of money.

we'll just have to live with it. If you run across any, I recommend limiting discussion to the weather.

jesus a akbar!

http://www.gentletouchsweb.com/links/

these recovery links can be very triggering-so be gentle with yourselves if you are in recovery.

Thanks for posting that! I really feel sorry for kids whose parents raise them in any kind of hard-core cult, including Xtian cults.

And engage in emotional manipulation of any sort.

Who determines what indoctrination is?

What types of indoctrination are acceptable? Love of State? of Moral Relativism? of Freedom? of The President? of The Bill of Rights?