mission statement- talented and gifted individuals group

this group is a safe place for talented and gifted people to let our brains hang out, as well as our warts, scars and wounds. it uses an expansive view of who is gifted that includes talents in the arts, sports, business, etc, as well as those the have been identified as gifted, on standardized tests or otherwise. highly sensitive people are also included. it welcomes the families and friends of same, especially hopes to help and nourish parents raising gifted children, and welcomes those young people.
we hope to support each other in identifying and coping with the downsides of our gifts, the less than useful gifts that often accompany high intelligence, and our negative interactions with regular folks and institutions. we hope to share our knowledge of the gifted personality and the ways we are different. we hope to share knowledge and resources for coping with our trials and tribulations, and making the most of our talents.
we hope to create a place where the norm is "normal for gifted".

edited to add link to thread discussing this group.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1641211

Generally, it doesn't take much to demonstrate one's talent, but to announce it seems a little, uhh...gauche?

sheesh. please visit linked thread.

>but to announce it seems a little, uhh...gauche?<

I suppose "gauche" is in the eyes of the beholder. Before posting on the aforementioned thread, the only people in my life that knew about my being "gifted" were members of my family.

I support the mission statement and the group.

Julie

Seriously, I think the group is intended to be more of a support group than a place to boast about who has the biggest brain.

Surely they wouldn't need a supportive environment. :eyes:

made it clear that his life was less than perfect.

I should learn to use :sarcasm: instead of :eyes:. :(

I do question, however, the existence of your "funny bone."

Edit to add:

Wanna see my Phi Beta Kappa key

Are you bragging? What happened to:

Gee, I dunno. Bragging about talent or giftedness seems arrogant

Generally, it doesn't take much to demonstrate one's talent, but to announce it seems a little, uhh...gauche?

Lattes and Birkenstocks will likely be obligatory.

there shouldn't be any gt's here?
people will be free to post naked if that's what they want to do.

for everyone already on DU. I'm sorry mop it does seem a little elitist.

that many of us have had to put up with. just ask al gore. sure to be a common theme.

I hope that works out for you

ALL of DU is what is mentioned in this mission statement.

It would not be a forum I would visit. Too many good things already going on to get stuck in mire of unhappy childhoods and thin skin.

Life is too short.

with additional certification from UCSD in gifted education, and years spent working with gifted students as well as all other students, I know that there is a group of people generally referred to as "gifted" whose brains work differently than the norm. There is nothing "arrogant" or "elitist" about it as mentioned by some other posters, and getting those people together is not about "bragging." Indeed, educators of the gifted know that isolation is very hard on these people, and that they thrive intellectually, socially, and emotionally when they have opportunities to interact with other people whose brains work like theirs do. That's a professional perspective.

I approve this mission statement as written, and hope to drop by a new DU group now and then!

because people in this group are assigning themselves to an intellectual class above the rank-and-file DU membership. It would make more sense to have a group for people above a certain IQ certification, although then you would be assuming that people of a lower IQ have nothing of value to contribute to a discussion.

If it makes people feel better about themselves then they should by all means go for it.

are certain to be a recurring theme. but there is not going to be any test required, no id cards issued, no pull outs for special enrichment classes or anything like that. hopefully, there will not be too much of this kind of jealousy, either.

You've just confirmed your elitism by assuming that I'm "jealous" of your superior intelligence. It also suggests an insecurity which I could guess is responsible for the need to start your group.

Enjoy. :thumbsup:

jealousy and resentment.

No wonder we are isolated. Seems like wherever we go we have to hide our brains and act like we are only average, to avoid being accused of arrogance and other such rot.

You think your ideas would get you dismissed as 'arrogant'? No, there's no reason to think that. If you have, then let us know what you've been afraid to put forward - there's elections to be won, problems of world peace, energy supply, and much more to be solved. No wonder we're in such bad shape if the intelligent people aren't ever bothering to tell us their ideas.

So, a few monkeys fling some poo, and you have to get your paws dirty too, eh?

"Trolls."

I have to ask: Wherever you go, are you really acting?

After all, athletes' bodies work differently from those of the average person.

Somehow the athletically gifted are socially acceptable, and can strut and preen and be idolized for it, and the intellectually gifted are "bragging" if they let it be known that their brains work differently.

i have been fishing here. although they are allowed the "no brag, just fact" attitude, gifted athletes have a lot of the same problems. that's why i listed them in the mission.

are both relative to whatever you choose them to be and are pretty meaningless when self-evaluated.

I do love it when someone who claims to be intellectually gifted has his/her logic run circles around by someone who feels no need to make the claim. IMO it's also a good reason to let your argument speak for your intellectual abilities and not some arbitrary designation.

this is the grade school playground. i hope there are not too many people experiencing flashbacks, here.

of getting blank stares from my peers when I inadvertently come out with some comment they don't understand, of learning to censor myself so that I'm not ostracized or attacked by anti-intellectuals in school and work situations, of suddenly becoming the "best friend" of people who usually ignore me simply because they want help in writing an essay or doing a research paper, of a friend who stopped studying so that her grades would drop and a certain boy would like her, of myself being considered a joke by the jocks, of knowing more than some of the teachers about THEIR subjects and knowing that I dare not say anything, of trying to pretend that I liked football, of being so accustomed to being deceived into thinking people liked me and then have it turn out to be a cruel joke that it took me years to learn to trust anyone, of thinking that graduation couldn't come soon enough.

Ironically, I found the most acceptance among the borderline retarded kids, because they knew what it was like to to be tormented for being different.

Unfortunately, American society is like a flock of chickens. Anybody who is different without a peer group of similarly different people is singled out for attack.

... when they're not chasing balls around.

But the kid or adult who excells in academics learns to (1) not use "big words", (2) hide their report card or term paper and mutter "Oh, I did okay" when asked what grades they got, (3) fake an interest in the smallest of small-talk, and (4) hide what they are truly interested in or what they truly think from all but their closest friends/family/colleagues.

If they don't learn to do these things early, the social punishment is swift, persistent, and enduring.

My mind works differently from a lot of peoples' minds. That doesn't make me a better person, but it means I can do some things better. How is it elitest to acknowledge that?

And how is it not elitest for athletes -- whose physical gifts put them in the top 1% or so of humanity -- to preen and strut and boast and brag their way through life? And make millions while doing it? The average person in this country is out of shape, overweight, and never had "sports genius" DNA in the first place, yet it doesn't seem to stop them from tuning in to sports at every opportunity for vicarious thrills.

Those complaining about "elitism" should give us a break and rethink what they're saying.

Hekate

Check the mission statement. It seems they need a special place as well. I guess they must find the bleatings of hoi polloi in the Sports forum a bit oppressive, when we don't understand what it's like to be marvellous at sport. Plus the elite of the business world will find a home there too - I will admit that those successful at business get a hard time at DU, but then, being a left-leaning site, you would rather expect that, wouldn't you?

H said. "But the kid or adult who excells in academics learns to (1) not use "big words", (2) hide their report card or term paper and mutter "Oh, I did okay" when asked what grades they got, (3) fake an interest in the smallest of small-talk, and (4) hide what they are truly interested in or what they truly think from all but their closest friends/family/colleagues."

I never stopped doing any of those things. I tended to glory in those behaviors when I was in high school. I was called a nerd, but I just found other nerds to spend time with. And I can't say I was scarred for life, or anything. In fact things have turned out pretty well. :)

I say, more power to all the people and all their gifts, regardless of IQ or other levels. Intelligence is very complex, anyway. It's not just a number.

Just because some people have been told that they have a higher intellectual ability, that doesn't inherently make it elitist. Are we ALL supposed to be average so that nobody's feelings get hurt?

You know, when my oldest son was in kindergarten and was saying he hated school within the first month because he was sad that none of the kids would talk to him, the people I talked to of a lower IQ all told me "give him time, the other kids will come around" or "see if you can teach him a sport so that he'll have something in common with the other kids". It wasn't very helpful, and by the end of the school year the other kids still hadn't come around and he was still more interested in DNA experiments than in playing soccer. In almost all conversations I don't discriminate whom I talk to based on their IQ. But when it comes to how to deal with a gifted child, I find that other gifted people or parents of gifted children understand a lot better what I'm dealing with.

and I am on the board of my school district's Gifted and Talented Education program, in which both my children participate. With education it becomes an issue because children who have a "gifted" designation are often bored when they are taught a standard curriculum and don't maximize their potential.

But I am paying the State of California to educate my kids and I want them educated the best way possible. On DU you have people from all over the world, many of whom were never tested for "giftedness" but may have fascinating, educated points of view, not to mention a diverse range of perspectives. I certainly don't want to exclude them from any discussion I'm involved in by creating my own little self-congratulatory club. Of course, if others want to do so that's their prerogative.

The mission seems to largely be about the downsides, and discussing them without bothering people in GD with our obviously elitist discussions.

Were it that easy. A more accurate name would be "The Trials and Tribulations of Those Who Think They Are Smart Group", but that is too long.

It's about wanting a safe space, where those of us dealing with these issues can discuss them without it resulting in spinoff threads in which people make fun of us. Put another way: I have been in enough conversations with other parents to know that if I need to talk to someone about the issues my child is having that are specifically related to his being "gifted", it almost always results in parents of non-"gifted" children getting upset and a big debate such as this one blowing up. Sometimes I just want to be able to talk about the issues I face or that my child faces without having to defend the fact that we even have such issues in the first place. Imagine having a group of GLBT people who want a safe place to discuss the unique issues they face, then having the straight majority say "well, why do they need to exclude themselves? we welcome their perspectives" etc. etc. It's not about whether or not gifted people or parents of gifted children can be in conversation with others who don't have the gifted status.

I haven't paid much attention to it when other topic groups have been created here - is there always this much of a fight for people to defend why they have the right to their own group?

members who assign themselves to something in particular. There is no assigning of "class" here. The assumption that one intellect is "better" than another is yours. Again, from a professional standpoint:

While the intellectually gifted have some interesting abilities, they also have some challenges that make them quite difficult to serve, and make it difficult for all the areas of their life that lie outside of intellect. There is nothing "elite" about that.

There are DU groups covering a broad range of interests and characteristics.

Are skeptics "elitist" because they want to get together to talk about how the rest of the world doesn't apply logical thinking to concepts?

Are the people in the various spiritual groups "elitist" because they believe something others in DU don't, and want to talk together about it?

Are the musicians' and writers' groups elitist because we can't all play or write?

I could go on; take a look at the long lists of groups. Then get some education about the real-life experience of those labeled "gifted" and see if they might not have valid reasons to get together now and again.

DU itself is a place for people of a certain political perspective to talk among themselves without interference from the larger political spectrum. Is that "elitist?"

I'm getting together with my "Excessively Talented and Gifted Group" (#8)...you hook up with the regular talented and gifted people, and talk about whatever simple topics you folks can er, appreciate. I would never suggest my excessive talents and gifts are any "better" than your typical, ordinary gifts! :P

As a father of two gifted girls, I dealt with this matter many years ago when all of this was pretty new. I pulled both girls out of the TAG (Talented And Gifted) program. Here's the letter my wife and I wrote that includes our rationale for pulling the youngest out. In view of the sentiments expressed in your post today, you might appreciate what we wrote all those years ago. As I read the comments about the need for this special group at DU, I'm glad I did pull them out! Here's the letter we wrote to our daughter's classroom teacher (we cc'd her TAG teacher and the principal) - it's a bit long but it hits on some points that are relevant to the topic:

-----------

Dear Mrs. XXXX:

We appreciate all that you have done for Alice this year. She certainly speaks very highly of you.

We would appreciate your assistance. After considering the pros and cons we have decided to pull Alice out of the TAG program. As you know, Alice’s older sister, Mary, was in the tag program several years ago, and we elected to discontinue after a short time. While the program sounded very good in theory, we felt at the time that it was not very productive in practice. We have not regretted our decision. Mary graduated near the top of her high school class and will soon be a senior in college at a state university. She is carrying a cumulative 4.0 GPA while working with department professors on a research project with a strong likelihood of being published as an undergraduate, and she has been selected to receive a very competitive graduate assistanceship in a PhD program with a Big 10 university. Last year we were notified that Alice had been selected to participate in the TAG program. We sent a note declining the invitation, and we were immediately contacted by her classroom teacher and the TAG instructor who persuaded us to proceed on a trial basis. We have been following the progress of the program since that time. Certainly there are advantages to the program. The children encounter challenging and stimulating activities. We believe that there is learning going on there. However, the positives, in our view, simply do not outweigh the negatives which, in our opinion, exist in four primary areas:

1) We believe that TAG programs, in general, underestimate the learning that takes place in the regular classroom. While bright kids learn quickly, they also need and benefit from the instruction and repetition that occurs in the classroom. Pull out programs don’t address the issue. While Alice is doing very well in the classroom, we don’t want to take the chance that she may miss important basic concepts, or that she will miss the repetition and class discussion that will improve her grasp of such concepts.

2) We have concluded, after our experiences with Mary, that accelerating bright children doesn’t really make much sense. For example, Mary skipped one year of middle school math to jump ahead to algebra. Alice misses basic math in the regular classroom to learn more advanced concepts in the TAG program. As it now stands, we simply replace one learning experience with another and we wonder how thoroughly TAG program proponents think through the benefits of pulling children for TAG instruction vs. the risk that the child may miss an improved understanding of basic concepts in the regular classroom. We don’t think it makes much sense to take any risk, because when it is all said and done, in the end we will have a 12th grade education followed by college and graduate school. In theory we could probably have Alice ready for college in 10 or 11 years instead of 12, but what would be the point? She must ultimately navigate through an educational system that is governed by reasonable but very specific time frames.

3) We are concerned that TAG programs are elitist. While the admission criteria is said to be objective and fair, the participants are often from prominent local families. In the real world, Alice will live and work with people of varying abilities, different gifts, and differing economic backgrounds. When she is an adult we want her to have a realistic view of her strengths and weaknesses and to realize that intelligence is only one relatively minor gift of many more important traits that define a person and contribute to success. This brings to mind a news editorial we read a few years ago about a supposedly brilliant Supreme Court Chief Justice whose decisions almost always favored the interests of the rich and powerful over the needs of average working people, the poor, and the disabled. His brilliance was described as “a cold thing that shimmers without the warmth of wisdom and compassion and therefore serves no purpose”. We would prefer to raise a child without much intelligence than to raise a brilliant child, no matter how successful, who would grow up to fit that description. We are concerned that the TAG program fosters elitist attitudes with which we disagree.

4) As parents of two children who have been identified by the school district as "gifted", we have analyzed a great deal of literature on the subject, and we have concluded that the existence of a "talented & gifted" subset of the population is a myth propagated by the education establishment and puffed-up parents who will gladly buy into it. What parent would turn down a school's invitation to place their child into a "gifted" program? We understand that in this community, we were the first. Furthermore, we are particularly concerned that we are seeing more and more references in the literature to special "problems" that gifted children encounter; problems that are attributed entirely to their giftedness. We find such claims to be absurd, and we don't want anyone instilling in our daughter a sense of emotional neediness, a sense of entitlement for "special" help, or a dependence upon "support" to deal with the "problems" associated with her giftedness.

Last year we agreed to try the TAG program again, and we hoped that the benefits to Alice would tip the scales in favor of the program. However, after giving it a fair trial, we feel that the pros simply do not outweigh the cons so we would appreciate it if Alice’s involvement in the program would be discontinued immediately. We have asked Alice about her preference and she has no strong feelings either way. Thank you again for all of your excellent teaching. We sincerely appreciate all that you do.

Respectfully,

XXXXX

-----------

We never regretted that decision. Both daughters are progressive politically. Both are self-reliant, strong, happy, well-adjusted women. Our youngest (about whom the above letter was written) is a DU member who occasionally reads here, but seldom posts. Both daughters continue to excel in everything they undertake. Both recognize that their lives have been relatively easy compared to many of their peers. Both are certainly aware of their intelligence, but both recognize that it would be unhealthy to have a significant part of their identity wrapped up in their "giftedness". Although it would never occur to either to proclaim their "giftedness" in a public forum, both would recognize that it would probably invite ridicule to do so - and both would believe the ridicule to be deserved. Both are repulsed by peers who proclaim their giftedness in public (and many do). Often it's under the guise of some "problem" their giftedness causes - anything to get it out there - some just seem to have a need to have people know they are gifted. Whenever my daughter (especially the youngest) encounters a peer who trumpets his/her giftedness, she says nothing about her own status - but she does make it a point to beat them, and she usually does.

The point is, there are very different ways to view this matter, and when I see the OP use phrases like "...our negative interactions with regular folks...", and another poster proclaim, "You must be a "norm"... I recognize that the concerns my wife and I had about our school's TAG program all those years ago were very well founded. These are exactly the types of arrogant, self-absorbed attitudes I predicted these programs would foster. So... any parent of a gifted child who happens to read this - think long and hard before you buy into the flattery. What kind of adults do you want them to be? Take it from a parent who decided to pass on TAG. Your kids will do just fine without it - probably better than with it. Just one opinion, but one you aren't likely to hear from your kid's school.

But a very insightful post about many of those "gifted" people supporting this group.

This deserves to be a thread on its own, just to give more people a chance to read it. And to recommend it for the Greatest Page.

:applause:

time relating to people with average intelligence I think this forum is a great idea.

:hi:

creatives,artists of all kinds , and the visionary types in there..
:)

Or you could use THIS to write the statementso the other people would finally leave us alone..LOL..
http://www.dilbert.com/comics/dilbert/games/career/bin/ms.cgi

where individuals like me can have a forum to discuss the downside of our excessive gifts, and our negative interactions with plain old talented and gifted people. We'll create a place where the norm is "excessively talented and gifted". :P

there is a wide streak of humor impairment here. i know i can be guilty.

that have to put up with the plain old "excessively talented and gifted" population? Where do they go for support?

If we join forces there will be more of us to make the "talented and gifted" group feel stupid. And I will try to write posts worthy of your scrutiny. Deal?

The original group being discussed would be the (Talented and Gifted)group.

(Talented and Gifted) ² would be the excessively talented and gifted group.

(Talented and Gifted) ³ would be the above and beyond, excessively talented and gifted group.

(Talented and Gifted) ⁴ would be the vastly superior, above and beyond, excessively talented and gifted group.

(Talented and Gifted)⁵ would be the near Godly, vastly superior, above and beyond, excessively talented and gifted group.

Before long we'd reach the group with no human members, only Gods might join.

I do think we should have membership cards, so if someone wants to call us elitist, it will be easier for them to refer to us: as "card carrying members" of (Talented and Gifted) Group.

;)

would I have to work my way up, or could I just flat out and join? :shrug:

Oh, I know the answer alright...

O8)

seem somewhat testy, these too are meant to encourage thought in the merely mortal folks here?

Thanks for being willing to answer my questions, your godliness.

;)

as you, too, will understand should you be so fortunate as to one day reach the Divine Plane, above which there is NO OTHER

:eyes:

:yoiks: :wow:

...to any forum or public thread under the Democratic Underground" :rofl:

Some of us have testes and some of us are just testy. :P

Hekate, for instance, immediately understood that testiness is next to godliness, especially the Underground godlies. :evilgrin:

Hekate

are good at testetaking.

:yoiks:

:hi:

I watched Bill Moyers on Faith and Reason, great discussion of the flood and Noah and justice etc.

Which, I will admit, I am loathe to do...

There are generally acknowledged as being 4 "bands" of giftedness. I will not attempt to define them other than to state the common ordering.

Gifted
Highly Gifted
Exceptionally Gifted
Profoundly Gifted

There's no fifth level above PG as PG is intended to be all-encompassing for the upper end.

I've seen discussions (although I can't recall where off the top of my head) that have also grouped the above classifications into G/HG and EG/PG under the (potentially valid) assumption that, since EG/PG are *so* far off the norm, they tend to have more significant issues dealing with non-GTs.

number of criteria, there is also a subgroup consisting of the top 1% of the population.

I never really looked into it, but I know that the number in each group decreases dramatically rather than proportionately.

Way fewer than half the total Mensans would qualify.

I tried looking online and by now there seem to be several of these hyper-exclusive (and tiny) groups. Some of them advertise in Mensa's monthly journal, but they aren't part of that organization.

Mensa's one and only qualification for membership is scoring above the 98th percentile in any of several standard IQ tests. As the tests vary, so do the numbers assigned to the scores. The interests, occupations, and personalities of members are quite diverse.

Hekate

some particular score. I know cause that was what I used to qualify.

That is, not likely to trash their lives and/or be seen at a 12-step meeting at any time in the near future?

could we also include a thought about discussing ways to share our gifts with others, best utilize our talents, something like that? Like Superman, we will use our powers for good, not evil!!!!

is a common trait of gifted people. one reason why i think a lot of us are drawn to du.
i think your idea i a very worthy topic for discussion.

To do my (at least personally) usual Devil's Advocate and nit-picking, I'm wondering if we shouldn't also at least include a statement to the effect that attacking, denigrating, etc., any of those who are (even if self-)identified as gifted will not be tolerated?

Which is to say - I agree with the positive sentiments but would definitely want to stamp out any negative ones (and the discussions that they might engender) mercilessly. Otherwise, it's no longer a safe are for open discussion.

i understand what you are saying. keeping it a safe place is vital. i am hoping that we can count on the mods to keep the creeps out. if the other thread is any measure, there were very few jerks.
welcome other thoughts on this important issue.

And I haven't been in a schoolyard in decades, but STILL feel like I need to escape from it. The amount of trolling on this thread and the previous one are absolutely unbelievable--not something I ever would have expected on DU at all.

It would be very helpful to me in raising a boy who is both spirited and gifted to be able to draw on the experiences of other gifted adults and parents of gifted children.

I'm agreeing to the mission statement.

But you're going to have to have some kind of test for people to pass.

i would welcome them. i think that there are a lot of "tags" here that would have no interest in the group because they are happy, adjusted, successful, and feel no need. likewise, i am sure that it would be useful to a lot of people who fall "just under the line".
anyway, i cannot think of any way to go about verifying people's gifts, would not want the job, and think the return on investment would be small. so, i think we are stuck with the honor system, like it or not.
if we find that we have a need to deal with particular people that are causing trouble, there is always ignore. anybody that would be a jerk in that environment is not someone i want to talk to about anything else, either.

on this and the other thread. I thought things had changed.

group after reading some of these responses, and the other threads that were spawned by this idea. can you just imagine if we had asked for a support group for, well, just about anything else, and got this kind of responses.

I've been dealing with "gifted" related issues since I started kindergarten, and am now dealing with them again as a parent, but I absolutely suck on tests. I couldn't pass a MENSA test, for example, because it's very heavy on math and I am terrible at math.

I don't think there should be a test. I think it should be for the gifted, parents of the gifted, and people who support them. If people end up being disruptors then they can be dealt with that way. If you make it based on some kind of test, the elitism charge will be something the group will never live down.

I might be just a little too smart to join up with such a group of outcasts.

Just saying.

Good luck in your world though.

180

as a haven to discuss our frustrations in dealing with the 'normal' world. it would be great to be able to freely communicate with like-minded people, maybe learn how to freely communicate for the first time. what do we have to lose by trying?

For those who are claimin eltism, arrogance, if for some bizarre reason the existence of this group makes you feel bad, then don't participate, it's not as if the group is there to denigrate others, merely a a place to interact for the gifted, and the very fact that there have already been a number of people who jumped in to this discussion with negativity simply validateds the OP's point that those who are gifted often face challenges in every day society that those who aren't gifted aren't subject to.

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Too cliquish for me.

but it looks like you are bringing a lot of baggage to this issue. you are drawing conclusions about something that does not even exist yet.
many of us have bags just like that. many of us have managed to put them down. many are still trying. that is why we want to get together. i did not see a single person in that long, long thread say anything arrogant, elitist or mean spirited, except those that opposed the idea.
maybe you should give us a chance. maybe you will be surprised.

Your attitude, whether or not you are, in fact, gifted, is exactly why GTs feel the need to establish safe zones in which they *can* talk about the troubles they've had.

When is it not "safe for talented and gifted people to let our brains hang out" on DU? If people are so "gifted", then they should be able to speak their minds and back up their thoughts and opinions when challenged.

You need to understand (or, perhaps, learn) the difference between discussion and attack. I don't think you'd find any (or certainly many) GTs who would *not* be willing to engage in an honest, straight-forward discussion about their ideas, opinions and thoughts. When such invitations to a discussion, however, are framed as being a "challenge", you've pretty much stifled discussion right there. I, speaking as a GT myself, have no desire to defend myself. I've had more than enough of that crap in my life. I'd like to have a chance to discuss things *without* feeling like I'm under attack.

And it must be pure torture to cope "with the downsides of our gifts"?

Believe it or not, it can be. Most mundanes (and, yes, I'm going to show some elitism by using the term) truly don't understand, and, I'd argue, are incapable of understanding, how GTs think. I've had to deal with co-workers and managers who felt threatened by me and did their best to sabotage my career rather than letting me flourish. I've had trouble with in-laws for much the same reasons.

If you did any reading on the subject of GT kids and adults, you'd discover that there are more stories of pain and trauma (emotional and intellectual if not actually physical) among GTs trying to live in a world that would be just as happy if we suffered massive brain damage that lowered us to below the norm.

It must be even more torturous after you ventured into the real world and discovered most people didn't give a rat's ass if you were labeled "gifted" in grade school.

That's actually a mischaracterization. In reality, most people don't give a rat's ass about anything that's "different" from themselves. Fear of the "other" is a powerful motivational force. I'd even be willing to argue that many (most? all?) GTs instead embrace the new and welcome change. After all, for them, it's nothing to be afraid of. Rather, it's something to be embraced, learned from, and internalized.

Ostensibly, we live in a reality-based world which is results-oriented. I say "ostensibly" because the sad reality is that most people aren't really focused on the results. Rather, they're interested in the results only so long as they're not made to look bad by them. My own experience (and discussion with other GTs) shows that that mode of approach is just anathema to GTs.

Why be mediocre when, merely by letting our gifts, wherever they may lie, run free, we can be amazing? And, along the way, we can also be happy...

*

It's my attitude that forces you to believe that it is not safe to talk about the "troubles" you've had?

You need to understand (or, perhaps, learn) the difference between discussion and attack. I don't think you'd find any (or certainly many) GTs who would *not* be willing to engage in an honest, straight-forward discussion about their ideas, opinions and thoughts. When such invitations to a discussion, however, are framed as being a "challenge", you've pretty much stifled discussion right there.

So let me get this straight. In your gifted mind, a "discussion" turns into an "attack" when somebody else "challenges" what assertion is being made? A different opinion leads to a "stifled discussion"?

Sounds to me like you're the one who needs to learn the difference between "attack" and "challenge". Maybe that is one of the downfalls of being labeled "gifted" - that you are unable to deal with real life discussion and conflicts.

Believe it or not, it can be. Most mundanes (and, yes, I'm going to show some elitism by using the term) truly don't understand, and, I'd argue, are incapable of understanding, how GTs think.

Mundanes? Are you sure you're not just a legend in your own mind?

I've had to deal with co-workers and managers who felt threatened by me and did their best to sabotage my career rather than letting me flourish.

Ostensibly, we live in a reality-based world which is results-oriented. I say "ostensibly" because the sad reality is that most people aren't really focused on the results. Rather, they're interested in the results only so long as they're not made to look bad by them. My own experience (and discussion with other GTs) shows that that mode of approach is just anathema to GTs.

Why be mediocre when, merely by letting our gifts, wherever they may lie, run free, we can be amazing? And, along the way, we can also be happy...

I'm way ahead of you on that one. I quit my job as a reporter for one of the largest newspapers in the country because I just couldn't accept their corporate style of journalism, and I consistently clashed with the big boss. I basically walked out after sending a big Fuck You to the company via e-mail to the entire newsroom. Needless to say, my chances of getting hired at another large metro daily were slim, not that I even tried.

Instead, I formed my own company where I write and take photos, my two strongest talents. So not only am I letting my gifts run free, I am also getting politically active, something I was not allowed to do as an "unbiased" reporter.

However, I did not need an elitist group that views the rest of the world as "mundanes" to prompt me in my decision. That came from within me.

opposing threads were locked so good luck swimming in the smart tank.

is, i beleive, the old tv tagline. that's all a lot of us want. to state the facts without other people accusing us of bragging. and we can sure look around and see that we are not making that part up.

so we can get the word out.

Maybe "gifted" should be part of the autism spectrum:
normal - gifted - aspergers - autistic

There's a lot of talk about "gifts" here, as if the gods have chosen a few babies for special treatment.

Seriously, though, are you expecting people to suggest modifications for your mission statement, to do the formal "I'm a starred member, and I support this" post that a group requires, or are you just dividing the flack you're getting between this and the other thread? You imply the 2nd in the other thread, but don't state that here.

I'd expect a lot of smartarse replies in the group, if it ever gets off the ground. Not that I ever make smartarse remarks myself, oh no. :P

i, for one, credit evolution for my gifts. they are certainly genetic. they are all over my family tree. the good ones and the bad.
i split the thread because the other one is getting pretty long, and the procedure, as i read it, is to have 2 threads.
and yes, we expect to have a lot of snarkiness and trolls to deal with.

like a hot potato. If you were to imply that you're so intelligent that you've been holding back on DU all these years for fear of being called "an egghead" or something, you'd not only get attacked by many DUers who don't like artificial divisions in society, you'll also make DU a magnet for all the right wing blogs and forums to point and laugh at the 'elitists' who think they're better than 'regular' people. And if you didn't manage to solve some of our major problems pretty damn quick, they might have a point.

In fact, I think you ought to reword the statement completely, to make it about family and participants in programs for 'gifted' (if that word is being constantly used for this in the USA - if not, drop that too, because it smacks of "the chosen few") children/people, past, present or future. Otherwise it will fill up with posts saying "why will no-one listen to this brilliant idea?", followed by the dumb crap we all come up with before thinking something through. And I think "highly sensitive" doesn't belong in it as a category either - you could have a warning that such people are often highly sensitive, so courtesy is extra important, but identifying a group as being for the "highly sensitive" is just going to get us all to post there when we need to moan about something.

Have you actually run this past Admin already? Because there's a good chance they'll say "not in a million years"; this is not really like previous groups (at least in the statement you give above). But if they do say the concept is OK, when you reword it, put in the thread what people have to do to get it accepted as a thread, ie

and between this thread and the other, we have way, way more than 10 people interested. we are waiting to hear.
if you find the idea offensive, i suggest 2 things. one- don't bother to participate. two- have a long talk with yourself about what you find so offensive and threatening about people accepting who they are.

My brain has been hanging out of my ears all day from the heat and humidity. If they can provide a better place for my brain to hang out then I'm all for it. Until then I've got to say this is the dumbest idea I've heard in a long time.

If I had more intelligence and was less tired I could explain, but I have a feeling that those who get it, already get it, and those who don't, don't care to.

if people can't explain what it means, and many people misunderstand it. Yet another reason for rewording the mission statement.

Make the group.

:-)

since most revealed religion is totally illogical.

:-)

As a former MGM/GATE* student, who did not excel in standard subjects, I think it is a great idea. Yes, I do have trouble relating; along with battling depression, it made my public school days miserable.

Is there a place in your group for someone who scored in the 99th percentile on spatial relations tests and only in the 50th percentile in English (9th grade comprehensive testing).

*Mentally Gifted Minors/Gifted And Talented Education

No, I am not elitist, I am smart. Just because Americans have a problem with smart people does not mean I am going to dumb myself down.

:shrug:

someone who scored in the 99th percentile on spatial relations tests and only in the 50th percentile in English

I always scored high on all types of tests, high 90s percentile in math, a range of over 90's scores in english.

The only test I ever took that I scored below normal was something like "visualizing in 3 dimensions." In that I had the remarkable (out of my normal) experience of scoring in the 27th percentile.

I was told that were I school age, not only would I be dx'ed ADHD, but also with a learning disability with regard to things visual.

I sort of panic if someone puts an out of order comic strip in front of me and asks me to put it in correct order. So it isn't necessarily only 3 dimensions that vex me visually.

amusing. It has a distinct pop psychology tone to it.

although, i am not positive what constitutes a vote. and i have a couple of people here on ignore, so i don't know what they are saying. don't know if i get a vote, either. but..
and we need one more for greatest. although the way things are going, maybe it would be best to get our 10 votes, and disappear. sheesh.

Is it just sufficient to say we support such a group? (If so, count this reply as one such vote).

just have to have a star, and say aye.

i totally forgot that you need to be a donor to vote, and to enter groups.
folks with stars, please chime in.

Thanks for the reminder!

Hekate

Although, sadly, I think my point's been proved (not to mention I've got a couple new people on ignore) through the two threads that I've seen.

There's a *lot* of antipathy for "otherness", especially in the realm of GTness where such otherness is (for reasons that I still really don't understand) perceived as being threatening.

is not the intent.

From junior high on, I was two years younger than everyone in my class through high school graduation and college (skipped grades through a process from a program run by a psychology prof. in my area, for people in elem. school who tested higher on the SAT than the average college bound senior).

Went to one of the leading universities in the country, and on to further study.

Had a lot of difficulties socially related to being younger than everyone and just not being very mature, until late college.

I think a group like this would have relevance for me but I'm just not comfortable with the idea quite honestly, and without any specific criteria aside from people labelling themselves gifted, it doesn't seem meaningful.

It's a lose-lose: If you have criteria, it codifies the snob/elitism. If you don't, it seems amorphous and meaningless.

My 2 cents.

nt

are. especially since this is just something that you are born with.
nobody is going around putting labels on anybody. people will be free to decide for themselves if they fit or not.
but there really are common problems, and downsides to giftedness that are hard to deal with because of the kinds of attitudes that are all over these threads. if the topic of this group had been skin color, or low iq, a lot these spiteful posts would have been taken down in seconds, if they had been made at all. i think they sure show what kind of crap is out there.

Now I think you're just getting carried away. The smartest people I know are those who move confidently from one learning experience to the next. They get their asses kicked along the way, all the time, but they learn....and learn specifically how NOT to get their asses kicked again. Not once have I heard them complain that they were too smart or simply misunderstood.

A couple of these people are teachers and their genius is making people understand. They make people smarter by encouraging them to think with what they've got and learn to do something useful with what they've got.

Since I don't have a star, whether I agree or disagree, is I'm sure quite irrelevant to you; however, for the record, I'm against your idea for a new forum. I already know who the smart people at DU are( and there are lots of them) but I'd hate to have to go to another forum out of fear I wasn't getting their BEST stuff on GD.
.
.
.

this has nothing to do with gd discussions.
and intelligence is largely inherited. not knowledge, but ability to obtain it. there are many other traits that go along with gt, many of them quite unpleasant.

about that? We aren't bothering you.

...the supposed "elitism" of forming such a group is sure to be a regular feature of the group's discussions, I'm guessing. Ya know what? Too goddamn bad if less-than-gifted folks, intellectually speaking, think it's elitist, and manifest their envy or disdain with such accusations. The mediocrities pretty much own the world; we can have our own little DU group corner of it where we're not bound to be sensitive to their obscured vision and slower, less complex thought processes.

I support the mission statement and the group.

Ron

Can us mediocrities with obscured vision come to you guys for resolution of those complex issues which are beyond our ken?

I'm soooo excited about this. Finally, DUers with all the answers. :eyes:

>Finally, DUers with all the answers.<

Part of being a thinking adult is the fact that we realize we DON'T have all the answers.

Julie

nice, not to say anything at all? Why the hostility toward those of us who are different, through no fault of our own???

are now envious of your "gifts"?

No, it's not jealousy. Nor is it disdain.

It's words like "mediocrities" and "mundanes" and "less-than-gifted folks" and "regular folks" who have "slower, less complex thought processes" that clearly indicate an air of superiority and condescending attitude.

There are more effective ways to present this group without having to patronize or insult those whom you believe are inferior.

But it would take a somewhat more complex thought process to be able to do that successfully.

Interestingly enough, difficulty relating to people is one of the negatives that generally afflicts those who would be labelled "gifted."

although it's starting to pick up elements of cesspit more than pool...

It's words like "mediocrities" and "mundanes" and "less-than-gifted folks" and "regular folks" who have "slower, less complex thought processes" that clearly indicate an air of superiority and condescending attitude.

Let's stop talking about intellect. Let's talk about, oh, I don't know... The ability to run. It's a simple physical activity. Clearly quantifiable and measurable. There are people who can run fast and people who can't. There are people who can run long distances and people who can sprint for short ones but can't hack it over the long haul.

If I were someone who was able to win an Olympic 100m dash or a marathon, am I not allowed to say that I am, in very measurable and quantifiable ways, better *at running* than someone who can't do the same? How is stating that *as a fact* demonstrating an air of superiority or a condescending attitude?

Face it - it's neither.

So why is it that when the topic of discussion turns to intelligence and the ability to think that, suddenly, it's forbidden to discuss relative abilities?

If you're a member of MENSA, for example, then you've got pretty damn categorical proof that you are, as a provable fact, smarter than at least 98% of the rest of the world. Saying so should not be grounds for an accusation of elitism unless someone saying, and being able to prove, that they're faster than 98% of the rest of the world is *also* grounds for an accusation of elitism.

Trying, rather, to "flatten" the abilities of everyone (and, yes, phrases like "everyone's gifted in their own way" are indicative of this) to lesser common denominators is demeaning and insulting to anyone who is above the Nth percentile (for large values of N).

(Yes, I also admit that my analogy of running speed clearly breaks down under scrutiny. In particular, someone who's "fast" is rarely, if ever, ostracized, nor are they likely to suffer any significant injustice merely because they're fast. This, hopefully obviously, does not compare with GTs who have been known to suffer for their GT-ness.)

And are you a member of MENSA?

Is that going to be the prerequisite to join this group?

How else will you determine who gets to stay?

What if the group gets infiltrated by a swarm of mundanes?

"If you're a member of MENSA, for example, then you've got pretty damn categorical proof that you are, as a provable fact, smarter than at least 98% of the rest of the world."

The truth is, MENSA members are rated against other people in the general population who have taken the same test. Probably people who thought they were gifted and were trying to get into MENSA.

After all, I've never taken an IQ test and neither have most Americans. And I know damn well most people that make up "the rest of the world" have not taken the test either.

EDIT: This is a "challenge" on your statement. Not an "attack". I hope you can see the difference. And I await your response.

Or anything else like that? And why are you so hateful? We are talking about people who were told that they were gifted. The ones who scored in the 98th percentile and above on this kind of test for example. The ones who had to hide this fact from their friends so they wouldn't seem freakish to the other kids, if they wanted any kind of social life. Luckily I was also blessed with a good sense of humor, but that wasn't always enough. I had to hide those marks lots of times. My brother called me a weirdo. It wasn't fun.

And still it happens here at work. I listen to these people talking about American Idol, and there no one that wants to talk about the National Geographic show I watched.

and business, as well as anyone with a connection with 'gifted and talented' school programs. It's also for the 'highly sensitive', though I don't know what that means.

As far as your conversations go at DU, have you found it a problem that no-one here will discuss National Geographic shows with you? There's the Environment and Energy, and Science forums. There are forums and groups for arts, sports, and even small businesses. When someone tells me what is really meant by "highly sensitive", I may be able to point to a forum or group for that too.

It's in the mission statement. You really think those who are talented at sport need a special group at DU?

"Ya know what? Too goddamn bad if less-than-gifted folks, intellectually speaking, think it's elitist, and manifest their envy or disdain with such accusations. The mediocrities pretty much own the world; we can have our own little DU group corner..."

Nah, there are plenty of gifted people here who think it's a bad idea too. It leads to things like labeling other DUers as "mediocrities", "norms", and "mundanes".

"...we can have our own little DU group corner of it where we're not bound to be sensitive to their obscured vision and slower, less complex thought processes."

Oh boy. Now you've done it - you have issued a challenge. Big mistake! Now what are you going to do when "mediocrities" stop by to learn from all of your "complex thought processes" and all they see are posts by other GTs (posing as "mediocrities"), and just plain old "mediocrities", that run circles around you? Good luck. You're going to need it.

"Too goddamn bad if less-than-gifted folks, intellectually speaking, think it's elitist, and manifest their envy or disdain..."

No, not envy. Think the opposite. Good lord man... show some self-respect. Whoever fed you all this nonsense really did a number on you.

One more comment for the benefit of all the "mediocrities" who might wander into this thread... Well-adjusted, confident, successful GTs will seldom self-identify. They don't need to.

And I see no point in it

But then, how often am I not? ;)

I was in the gifted program at my school, too, and I see no possible good coming of this group. This is sure to end up like the "Brights" debate.

good-natured. I'd like to wish the best for the group (despite my ribbing) I think it will be particularly valuable for those individuals raising gifted children.

Seriously, as with anyone who is different from the "norm", there are serious matters to be discussed, and different pleasures to be derived in such a groups sharing of their experiences. :thumbsup:

Edit: 10th recommendation.

a lot of the ones that are not good natured have really solidified my hope that we get this group. many of us probably identify with the pain that is evident in them. i hope we see some of the flame throwers, if they manage to get some insight. i think that those of us who do accept ourselves are actually VERY accepting of others.

I would even suggest putting "parents of gifted children" into the title if it isn't too cumbersome.

Edit: Aye!

:hi:

NOBODY knows the troubles I've seen. Would that the scars were for but a moment visible, no one would ever again DARE to dismiss me as a liar...

I was able to smooth the path somewhat for my 2 children but they also bear the scars. My baby, diagnosed H.F. autistic at 3, once said to me, "Mom, you're always hassling me to engage and I want to know WHY. Most people are just so mean-spirited, misinformed and STUPID. I'm WD and they don't like me anyway. Do I really HAVE TO???"

Taken aback, my knee-jerk reaction was, "To survive here, YES, you must."

i was a full time mom for 15 years. 5 kids, all gifted. one mentally ill. it was a briar patch. scars? oh yeah.
so, do we take your post as a yes?

This territory is filled with landmines. Those of us who have experienced what it means to be WD will be excoriated by those who believe we are being "elitist" and project all their insecurities upon us. It flies in the face of "All men are created equal," that wonderful American Myth that defies any practical application.

YES, we are ALL equal in our humanity. NO, we are not all equal in our capacity. Such considerations become value judgements in short order. It's about those who have the capacity being encouraged to develop it and pass it on, rather than being beaten into a bloody pulp simply for having it.

Possessing a particular capacity as a black female has given me an incredible 5 decades of experience, dealing with so many whose primary objective was to put me in my "place." May I tell you much fun it has NOT been, as their idea of my "place" and mine have never coincided? Will I ever be ALLOWED to speak of the outrageous psychic and physical assaults I have endured, still alive and sane enough to tell the tale coherently?

Yes, Mopinkikins, (in Veronica mode, the "Archie" reference to which few here today are privy), YES.

:hug:

Hekate

feel the pain of the folks who are attacking us. seriously. we all have people like them in our lives. most of us are very affected by other people's pain, even as we try to shelter ourselves from it.

But the other thread and its spinoffs have changed my mind about that. Apparently even using the word "gifted" makes some people really defensive, and it's clear that many people don't understand what it is. I will recommend the thread for the sake of those who feel they need the group.

I doubt I would participate often, but I can see the possibility that I might have questions on an occasional basis. I am kind of doubting that the group would become very active.

i should be stunned. but i am not. hard to argue that the group is not needed.

:evilgrin:

makes me think of:

related to giftedness.

Right?

And anyone who wants to constructively discuss such difficulties, whether they are their own, their children's, their sibling's, or whomever's, would be welcome.

That seems pretty straightforward, and pretty positive. Anyone offended (for whatever reason) about such discussions can ignore it completely. I don't see that any of these threads have turned into bragging contests about IQ. The only qualification for participation seems to be concern about the problems that gifted people can face sometimes, and that's not elitist.

I don't really get why that's such a big deal.

you are absolutely correct, and i hope you will join us. unless we all die off from the fumes in these threads. sheesh.

because apparently, DU is so anti-intellectual that the really good ideas have been held back all these years, for fear of being misunderstood. It's also somewhere where those talented at business can discuss their problems (because, God knows, it's such an anti-business climate in the modern capitalist world).

though was/am listed and noted by many as being "gifted."

I am able to dissect any argument and debate until the opposing individual cries.

I am among the top 2% "smartest" people in the world.

Whoop dee da doo.

All people are gifted in some way, and the challenge is to find out how.

I detest people who use a "disability" to create a reason for separation.

Sorry if that means you, but meanings sometimes relate to truth.

Other groups are separated by common interests like photography or cooking or writing or sports.

Or by ethnicity or culture, which are mainly frequented by people of that culture, but are open to anybody who is interested in learning about that particular culture.

But this is the first group that is separating itself by claiming to be intellectually superior to the average DUer. People who claim that the conversations in GD and the other Big Forums are beneath them or are too frequently sabatoged by "mediocrites" or "mundanes" who fail to grasp the complexities of the discussion.

This is the first group that is insulting the majority of DUers by separating itself.

And no, it's not because I feel I am not as smart as they are, for I have no doubt I have just as much talent and creativity -- if not more -- than the majority of these self-described "gifted" people.

I just hate elitism in all forms and shape.

there is not a word of truth in your post. not one.

So I can explain to you why they're not.

and show me where a single proponent of this idea said anything remotely like what you are accusing us of.

I said:

"But this is the first group that is separating itself by claiming to be intellectually superior to the average DUer."

Because you said:

"this group is a safe place for talented and gifted people to let our brains hang out" (as opposed to GD?)

"we hope to support each other in identifying and coping with the downsides of our gifts, the less than useful gifts that often accompany high intelligence, and our negative interactions with regular folks and institutions."

"i am hoping that we can count on the mods to keep the creeps out."

Also because another DU said:

"Most mundanes (and, yes, I'm going to show some elitism by using the term) truly don't understand, and, I'd argue, are incapable of understanding, how GTs think."

I also said that this group is being supported by:

"People who claim that the conversations in GD and the other Big Forums are beneath them or are too frequently sabotaged by "mediocrities" or "mundanes" who fail to grasp the complexities of the discussion."

Because another DUer said:

"we can have our own little DU group corner of it where we're not bound to be sensitive to their obscured vision and slower, less complex thought processes."

Also, in another post on this thread when I asked, "When is it not 'safe for talented and gifted people to let our brains hang out' on DU? If people are so 'gifted', then they should be able to speak their minds and back up their thoughts and opinions when challenged."

I was told, "You need to understand (or, perhaps, learn) the difference between discussion and attack. I don't think you'd find any (or certainly many) GTs who would *not* be willing to engage in an honest, straight-forward discussion about their ideas, opinions and thoughts. When such invitations to a discussion, however, are framed as being a "challenge", you've pretty much stifled discussion right there. I, speaking as a GT myself, have no desire to defend myself. I've had more than enough of that crap in my life. I'd like to have a chance to discuss things *without* feeling like I'm under attack."

So in other words, nobody dare challenge a "gifted" person because it is the same as "attacking" them. The arrogance on this thread astounds me.

:woohoo: :bounce: :yoiks:

Thanks for pm'ing my mailbox. I just came by to add my vote, now I'll read the posts.
:hi:

Hekate

I'm not going to be a member of your group, but I wish you all the best. It seems as though you're receiving a lot of grief, but there are some of us who have nothing against a DU TAG group.

:eyes:

those words are patently offensive to me even though they are commonly used. And yes, they have been used to apply to me, my test scores have been basically embarrassing. The reason people have elitist problems is that these words are commonly used, outside of this context, as 'good things' to describe someone as. Who doesn't want to be told they are gifted, or talented? and to be told that you are not gifted, or talented, is frankly, an insult to them. This is why people have issues with creating a group for people who are 'gifted' or 'talented' since creating a group is inherently exclusionary of those who don't posess such gifts and talents. it's not what DU should be about.

maybe part of the adjustment problems so-called 'gifted and talented' people have is because of this same sense of exclusivity? just a thought.

You're gifted, you're talented, you need to be surrounded by other smarties who appreciate and challenge your superior intellect. And you haven't managed to accomplish this in your everyday, non-cyber lives because ...? You're still stuck in grade school? You were too busy writing letters to SRA and other curriculum providers to persuade them to create more levels so you could compete with yourself and that one other kid who bested you about half the time? You were too busy with the therapy you needed because of that one teacher who tried to help you get your ego in check? The dum-dums all banded together and thwarted your plans? The dog ate your homework? What?

Look at the two threads.

i will drop it and wait for the admin decision. how they could turn us down after both the support and the attacks shown in all these threads, i dunno.
hope to see the supporters in the group. i will remind both sides that du rules forbid people from posting in a group if they do not support the mission. the groups are intended to be safe places for like minded people. i know i am not the only one looking forward to some healing.

Even though I am not too keen on your idea, I understand it can be hurtful when a thread you start becomes a place for people to make jokes. I know you had good intentions and meant well. Sorry you are having to endure all the flames and degradation.

What is it, exactly, that you need to heal from? Try describing it, and see if it doesn't come down to your own failure to accept the glaring fact that you really are just like everybody else and recover from the childhood crap that most other people, including the so-called gifted and talented, manage to put behind them.

Everyone gets categorized and labeled in some way, based on attributes they didn't choose and have little control over - intelligence, looks, height, race, physical ability, wealth, whatever. I got a triple dose, including the intelligence thing, so I can relate (in case you failed to guess that the questions in my other post came from somewhere other than my ass). Then there's the stuff I haven't yet managed to work through. I could get into a parental issues group, but I'd expect to be soundly thrashed for proposing one. This is, after all, a political forum. I'm sure every single member has one or more personal issues for which plenty of support exists elsewhere.

Perhaps you and the other proponents of this group have more in common with the people you insist on labeling as mediocrites, normals, and regular folks than you realize. Separating yourselves to whine about your wounded brains, feed each other's egos, and label everyone else a jealous onlooker isn't the way to feel better.

that you either couldn't or don't want to discuss in the regular forums ?

usually the things discussed in the other groups have and continue being discussed in the regular forums. but the groups are created for people who regularly want to discuss those and don't want to crowd up the GDs.

i ask for examples since as i mention with the other groups, i'm not sure what you are speaking of has even really been discussed at all in the regular forums. maybe if it was people could get a better idea of what type of discussions would be for this group.

the world, for that is what always has".

Not too sure about the contributions of the sports talents, but I'm sure someone will enlighten me. I'm in.

space of their own. I have been really intrigued by what I've witnessed in this thread....

I was on the train (going between gates) at the Atlanta airport a few years ago. There was an infant girl in a one-piece pajama (the kind with the feet in it). She was 8 months old. She was standing on tip-toe on her mother's knee, and asking her mother and father questions -- in full sentences -- about the different gates. Her parents were talking to her as they would talk to anyone who was making perfect sense.

My jaw was hitting the floor. I asked the woman how old her baby was, because she looked too young to be speaking so intelligently. You could see that this was a gifted child.

I just can't even imagine what that baby girl would have to go up against in your "average" everyday nursery or day care, when it comes to interacting with other babies her age.

I've never forgotten that little encounter. It still blows me away.

I TOTALLY SUPPORT the formation of this group...and I've got a *star*, so count me in. I will enjoy lurking there from time to time. :hi: :applause:

Go for it!!

:kick::kick::kick:

supporting this group are intellectually superior than those of us who are mocking it?

You think they're gifted just because they say they're gifted?

That baby didn't have to tell you she was smarter than most kids her age. Usually, with extremely intelligent people, you can usually see their intelligence without having them have to inform you that they are "gifted".

And why is it so clear to you that this group needs "a space of their own". For their inflated egos perhaps?

... or something like that.

Breathe. Practice equanimity. Compassion.

Fellow DUers are not the enemy.

Hekate

"Do not try to seem wise to others"
Epictetus

The results of this thread are a painful proof that Epictetus kind of knew what he was talking about. :beer:

Ever hear of standardized tests? This is something that has been measured, at least for those of us who first started talking about this over the weekend. I have never seen such vitriol over a proposed forum. We have really hit a nerve here, I see. I just can't believe it.

What if we had a forum for the best-looking here at DU? I doubt that would generate this much hatred. I feel like some of you would spit on us if you could. Get over it, for Christ's sake. If you aren't interested, then just don't join and we won't bother you.

As a kid, I was your typical ADHD, flying-off-the-wall student. I was labeled all kinds of negative things that I won't even mention here because I have since pushed them out of my mind.

What these educators did not realize was that I was an avid reader who would spend hours in the library reading about anything that piqued my interest. They had no clue that I would play chess with the old Cuban men in my neighborhood, developing into a very strong player with a thorough understanding of the game.

Very few teachers were able to recognize that I was not intellectually inferior as many of them had assumed, but that I was, in fact, quite creative.

I just wasn't interested in the crap they were teaching in school. And their structured teaching methods failed to hold my attention.

It wasn't until high school after I got busted writing graffiti on a wall, that I was asked by my English teacher to write a column for the school newspaper about the phenomenon of graffiti and how it serves as an extension of expression and creativity.

That column surprised a lot of people who had no idea I could put a sentence together. It also made many of those so-called "outcast" students feel as if they had been spoken for; as if someone could not only relate to them, but was able to put it in simple sentences to make the "normal" people understand.

I went on to become a regular writer for the school newspaper and went on to become a professional journalist, even though I dropped out of school, earned a GED and didn't start college until I was 21.

I've long since shed the label "loser" that was unwillingly placed on me.

Funny enough, it was many of those "gifted" kids that viewed me as such. But every once in a while, I run into them, and they're not doing much.

You and I had similar childhoods. I was Dyslexic and failed 2nd grade and was told often that I was stupid or "Oh, your in the dumb class." I was actually in remedial classes. I thought I was stupid and had a very painful childhood all through my school years. Now I am a published children's book writer and photographer and have very high self esteem and I am happy.

I agree that many of the "gifted" kids were those who acted superior to me as well. We certainly have that in common. I don't think much about my childhood any more, I just don't feel a need to.

I find it kind of funny that several people who have announced that they were "gifted" and were "brilliant" and want to be able to "let their brains hang out" tried to change the duologue after being attacked for sounding arrogant and are now saying they were actually victims and how tough it was. I would have given anything to be called "smart" or "gifted" growing up. Perhaps that would have countered some of the depression and self doubt I obtained from being called "stupid" and failing 2nd grade.

The "gifted" folk need to move on with life and forget the past. If they don't get to be called warm fuzzy words like "gifted" any more then
that is no reason to try to relive their childhood to boost their self esteem. This all reminds me of Ted Bundy from the show 'Love and Marriage' where he is reminiscing about making the winning catch during a High School football game while fitting someone with a new pair of shoes. The good old days of praise and glamor are over, now move on with life.

"And why is it so clear to you that this group needs 'a space of their own'. For their inflated egos perhaps?"

a lot of us are trying to discover our "egos," as they have been damaged or failed to develop at all because we have felt guilty about not achieving as was expected of us. or from always feeling we don't belong. how could you envy a group of people who just want to feel they belong for once in their lives? this has NOTHING TO DO WITH FEELING SUPERIOR - if anything, it is quite the opposite. i am sure you can empathize with a group struggling to find its voice? i don't understand the vitriol - at all.

If this group in fact has nothing to do with feeling superior, and if this is -in truth- for a group of people who are struggling to find their voice, then why not call it something else?

:shrug:

maybe a group called "making peace with lost potential."

Jesus Christ. There is no end to the foolishness on this site.

Please explain

classic protagonist-antagonist discussion. how does the concept of people forming a group for the purpose of mutual support constitute foolishness? please enlighten me. i don't understand how any group (unless it proposes violence) can elicit this much antagonism. there are plenty of support groups on DU. why is this one being singled out as an example of foolishness?

I don't know why people can't see it. It's a fucking joke. I was in talented and gifted classes throughout school and I see no need for this as it makes other people feel bad. But - hey - whatever floats your boat.

if a group of people get together to support each other with difficulties they have had / are having in their lives? just don't participate. put us on ignore. it's that simple.

have fun - at least you'll make putting together my ignore list really easy :thumbsup:

winning. i actually feel like i've just lost a potential friend - not my intent at all. i'm happy you are a well adjusted "gifted" person. some of us have had and continue to have problems. anyway, peace.

no harm done

Wow your so incredibly smart, it is people like you that carry the weight of the race on your shoulders. I wish I was as smart as you!

Why don't you go fishing for self importance someplace else...?

This thread and the other have really been thought-provoking for me, and also have made me a little depressed. I expected some vitriol when I read the first one, but the level of it has surprised and discouraged me. I really thought there would be a little more understanding on DU than there has been.

Here's a story for you: about 6 years ago, I fell in love with someone and moved across the country to live with him when he was relocated. We were planning on getting married, and I thought he was the greatest guy in the world. I accepted him for who he was, good and bad, and thought he felt the same way about me. After we moved, he became extremely abusive towards me, beginning with mental and emotional abuse. The primary target of his wrath was the fact that I read a lot. You see, he was learning disabled in elementary school and didn't learn to read until 5th grade. I never knew whether the other kids teased him about it or if he just felt a lot of shame as a kid, because he never would talk about it much, but it was obviously a sore spot for him, and he didn't read much as an adult. I NEVER thought less of him for it, I NEVER treated him as though he were less than me, and I never even thought that about him even in private moments inside my own head. I respected his mind and thought he was a smart guy. I thought it was a shame that the school didn't help him for so long. I even felt kind of a kinship with him because we were both a little different in school and had problems because of it.

But I also read a lot more than he did. Reading is an escape for me. I don't read much high-faluting stuff - in fact, at least half of what I read is trashy novels and other fluff. Reading is just a way for me to get the squirrel inside my head to stop running on the wheel, like how other people veg out to reality TV. And he couldn't take it, I guess. It was an affront to him that I read for pleasure, and it made him feel bad about himself. He tormented me endlessly about it - he called me lazy, worthless, a snob, told me I thought I was better than him, told me that it was a stupid activity for prissy elitists, on and on and on. Amazing how some of those words match exactly what people have called me and others on this thread, huh? Funny coincidence, that...

But anyway, I loved him, and I believed some of it, even though I didn't want to. Eventually I started hiding my books from him. I made sure never to say anything that might make him feel bad about himself or make him think I was "getting above myself". How fucking sad is that??? I squashed who I was inside, who I couldn't help being, because somebody else was resentful. But despite all my efforts, eventually emotional abuse didn't soothe him anymore. It stopped making him feel ok, and he started physically abusing me, abusing my cat, and breaking my things. I finally had saved enough money to move out and I moved to a little ghetto apartment with nothing, not even furniture. It was the lowest point of my life, and the emotional abuse had been extremely damaging to my self-esteem. He moved on to another girlfriend and presumably a happy life. 5 years later, I still cringe and say "sorry" every time my husband criticizes me for anything, even though he's an incredibly nice guy who has never even once raised his voice to me in anger, much less hit me. And I still feel shame and guilt when I read the contemptous posts on this thread about "snobby elitists" and "you all think you're so great", because I hear my abusive fiance's voice behind those posts, and beyond that the echoes of every mean girl in junior high who kicked me or shoved me into a locker, or whispered about me in the locker room because I was in advanced math and english instead of pep club or cheerleading.

And this little story is just a more extreme example of the kind of abuse that I have taken from other people over the years just for being who I was. Somebody talked about athletics up thread, and I actually think that good athletes or musicians get this treatment too. After thinking about this whole topic for a while, I realized that I actually know someone personally who is a very good amateur athlete, who gets some of the same kind of contempt and anger from people who aren't as good as he is. This person also tries to hide his light under a bushel so that other people won't get upset with him, but he can't help being athletically gifted and other people hate it. If he were a professional, it might not be so bad, but he's being compared with his average peers instead of the professional, and he outshines the other amateurs. I also remembered a time when I was in junior high and a gifted musician (for junior high, at least), and some of the other girls in my section breaking my instrument before an audition so I couldn't play. They didn't want to practice more and try to beat me, they just wanted to make me worse. There are a lot of jealous and insecure people out there. I just wish it didn't seem like the normal human response to those feelings was to try to tear other people down to their level instead of trying to improve themselves or excel at whatever particular gifts they have. The little chicken who stands out in any way gets pecked to death by all the other little chickens and that's really sad.

I'm not saying that smarts haven't taken me places in this world. They have. But they've also caused me some problems. The abusive relationship I talked about earlier in this post is one example. I don't feel as though I've ever truly moved past what happened to me in that situation, and I would like to talk about it with others who understand or might have some insight. Not to denigrate other people and talk about how great I am and how dumb they are, but maybe even just to try to come up with some healthier ways to deal with these kinds of situations that don't involve me completely losing my sense of self, being abused by other people, or making them feel bad about themselves. That's all. I honestly don't give a crap about lording it over anyone who has 3 less IQ points than I do or whatever - I've never been into that stupid shit. Somebody asked me to join Mensa a while back and I totally blew them off because I just wasn't interested in that kind of thing.

But I would like to try to work through some of my past and present issues associated with being "different" from others in this particular way. If the "gifted" label bothers people, well, as far as I'm concerned, you can call it something with less positive value associated. How about "anxiety ridden, unhappy, isolated, can't figure out how to talk to other people outside of grad school group"? Would that make you feel better and cut down on some of the contempt and vitriol? Because that describes me just as well as "gifted", and it's ok with me if we call it that, or "loser group", or "albatross" or whatever awful name you want to apply. After all, I'm used to that treatment after 31 years. But please don't try to stop it. I'd like to move away from the anxiety-ridden, isolated, etc... kind of behavior in myself, and maybe talking this stuff over with like-minded others would help me.

seriously. that is what these gifts are for a LOT of us.
i hope you will join us. your stories are sadly common.

Why do you even call them "gifts"? Why not "curse"?

This is truly beyond me.

Yes, we all suck. We got your point already. Since you are so sure you know the truth, why not just write everyone in this thread off as a ego-stroking asshole and move on with your life? It's interesting that your posts show up over and over again here, attacking and attacking and attacking. Why are you so obsessed with this topic?

Awesome. Since when did "truth" become the issue here?

This is really fucking funny at this point.