FUCK This: You Pro Arab? You Are PRO-WAR! You Pro Israel? You Are Pro-WAR

I wash my hands of ALL of you. Fuck this shit.

War = FAILED POLICY! YOU ALL FUCKING LOSE & YOU ALL ARE FUCKING WRONG!

that's it. fuck you all

you wanna take SIDES? take up a fucking WEAPON & GO OVER THERE. you are ALL cowards!

throw your flags and stars around at each other.

"MY side is RIGHT! YOUR side is WRONG!"

"YOU are TERRORISTS!"

"NO, YOU are!!"

you fuckers are fighting over LAND you fucking IDIOTS! LAND about the fucking size of my NEIGHBORHOOD! MYTHICAL LAND you stupid bastards!

kill yourselves. it's GAWD'S plan for you anyway. you both suck. you ALL suck!

HAHAHAHAHAHA

take that you ignorant bastards!

you are a fucking bunch of CHILDREN!

NONE of you are "religious" because you don't know the meaning of the fucking WORD!

I am ANTI-WAR and hope you ALL get what you DESERVE! you are ALL WRONG. deal with it. you SUPPORT this shit? fuck you all. BOTH sides. Don't justify it. you CANNOT! if you try, you are a fucking HYPOCRITE!

ignorant FUCKS. all over the world. Humans, fucking, suck, ass.

I haven't taken sides, either. This is all a bloody mess that's only getting worse.

I got no beef with you

Make Love Not War

:yoiks:

Get real for fuck's sake....

...I would welcome peace....just say it....we want peace....we want peace....we want peace....we want peace....we want peace....we want peace....we want peace....we want peace....we want peace....we want peace....we want peace....we want peace....we want peace....we want peace....we want peace....we want peace....we want peace....we want peace....! :hug: :grouphug:

Tell us how you REALLY feel.

:rofl:

:P

There are both Arabs and Jews who are working to find a peaceable solution to this problem. I hope to find articles about them and figure out if there is a way we can support them, if only with words of encouragement.

The people who blindly support one side or the other "unconditionally" might wish to stop and consider what they want for an outcome. The bottom line on both sides would be, I hope, to live in peace without fear of violence. I think that, in order to achieve this goal, both sides will have to admit they have done things that have roused the indignation of the other side. It would be good if they could sit down and acknowledge this as a first step towards reconciliation. Fighting and violence has been going on in the region since 1948-and neither side has achieved what they want. Trying peaceful negotiation might. At least with it, no one lives in fear of their lives.

I hear you though...

I ain't gunna study war no more...

"you are a fucking bunch of CHILDREN"

CHILDREN are never this DUMB

loved your rant. made me feel good

Israel, the Holocaust, and Anti-Semitism
Noam Chomsky
Excerpted from Chronicles of Dissent, 1992

QUESTION: One of your books, The Fateful Triangle, focuses specifically on the Middle East, and I was wondering if you could talk about your position on a possible two-state solution to the Palestinian question.
CHOMSKY: I don't think that's the optimal solution, but it has been the realistic political settlement for some time. We have to begin with some fundamentals here. The real question is: there are plainly two national groups that claim the right of self-determination in what used to be Palestine, roughly the area now occupied by Israel minus the Golan Heights, which is part of Syria.

So there are two national groups which claim national self-determination. One group is the indigenous population, or what's left of it -- a lot of it's been expelled or driven out or fled. The other group is the Jewish settlers who came in, originally from Europe, later from other parts of the Middle East and some other places. So there are two groups, the indigenous population and the immigrants and their descendants. Both claim the right of national self-determination. Here we have to make a crucial decision: are we racists or aren't we? If we're not racists, then the indigenous population has the same rights of self-determination as the settlers who replaced them. Some might claim more, but let's say at least as much right. Hence if we are not racist, we will try to press for a solution which accords them -- we'll say they are human beings with equal rights, therefore they both merit the claim to national self-determination. I'm granting that the settlers have the same rights as the indigenous population; many do not find that obvious but let's grant it. Then there are a number of possibilities. One possibility is a democratic secular society. Virtually nobody is in favor of that. Some people say they are, but if you look closely they're not really. There are various models for multi-ethnic societies, say Switzerland or whatever. And maybe in the long run these might be the best idea, but they're unrealistic.

The only realistic political settlement, for the time being, in the past ten or twelve years, that would satisfy the right of self-determination for both national groups is a two-state settlement. Everybody knows what it would have to be: Israel within approximately the pre-June 1967 borders and a Palestinian state in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, and a return of the Golan Heights to Syria, or maybe some other arrangement. This would be associated with maybe demilitarized zones and international guarantees of some sort or another, but that's the framework of a possible political settlement. As I say, I don't think it's the best one, but that's the realistic one, very realistic. It's supported by most of the world. It's supported by Europe, by the Soviet Union, has been for a long time, by almost all the non-aligned countries, it's supported by all the major Arab states and has been for a long time, supported by the mainstream of the PLO and, again, has been for a long time, it's supported even by the American population, by about two to one according to the polls. But there are also people who oppose it. It's opposed by the rejection front in the Arab world, the minority elements of the PLO, Libya, a few others, minority rejectionist elements, but crucially it's opposed by the leaders of the rejection front, namely the United States and Israel. The United States and Israel adamantly oppose it. The United States will not consider it. Both political groupings in Israel reject it totally. They reject any right of national self-determination for the indigenous popula- tion in the former Palestine. They can have Jordan if they want, or the former Syria, or something, but not the area that they now hold under military occupation. In fact they're explicit about it. There are carefully fostered illusions here that the Labor Party is interested in compromise over the issue. But if you look closely, there's no meaningful compromise. The position of the Labor Party remains what was expressed by their representative, who is now President, Chaim Herzog, who said that "no one can be a partner with us in a land that has been holy to our people for 2000 years." That's the position. They're willing to make minor adjustments. They don't want to take care of the population in the West Bank, because there are too many Arabs; they don't want a lot of Arabs around, so what they would like to do is take the areas and the water and the resources they want from the West Bank but leave the population, either stateless or under Jordanian control. That's what's called a "compromise solution." It's a very cynical proposal, even worse in many respects than annexation. But that's called here compromise and the reason is that we are again educated elites in the United States and national discussion takes a strictly racist view of this. The Palestinians are not human, they do not deserve the rights that we accord automatically to the settlers who displaced them. That's the basis of articulate American discussion: pure, unadulterated racism. Again, that's not true of the population, as usual, but it is of the politically active and articulate parts of it and certainly the government. As long as the United States and Israel reject the political settlement, there can't be one.

There certainly have been very plausible opportunities for a political settlement over many years, in fact, just to mention a few which have disappeared from history because they're too inconvenient: in February 1971 President Sadat of Egypt offered a full peace treaty to Israel on the pre-June 67 borders. In accordance with official American policy, incidentally, but not operative policy, offering nothing to the Palestinians, he didn't even offer them a Palestinian state, nothing. Nevertheless Israel rejected it, and the United States backed them in that rejection. In January 1976 Syria, Jordan and Egypt, the so-called "confrontation states," made a proposal in the U.N. Security Council for a two-state settlement with international guarantees and territorial rights secured and so on. That was backed and even prepared by the PLO, supported by the Soviet Union and most of the world. It was vigorously opposed by Israel, which even boycotted the session, in fact, it bombed Lebanon in retaliation against the United Nations, killing about 50 people, no excuse at all, just a fit of anger, "We're going to kill anybody who gets in our way if you push this," and the United States vetoed it. There have been a series of such things ever since. The United States has always blocked them and Israel has always refused them, and that means there's no political settlement. Rather there is a state of permanent military confrontation. That's aside from what it means to the Palestinians, which is obvious and terrible; it's very bad for Israel. It's leading to their own destruction, in my view, certainly to their economic collapse and moral degeneration and probably, sooner or later, their physical destruction, because you can't have a state of military confrontation without a defeat sooner or later. It's leading the world very close to nuclear war, repeatedly. Every time we have an Arab-Israeli conflict -- and there will be more of them, as long as we maintain a military confrontation -- the Soviet Union and the United States come into confrontation. Both are involved. The Soviet Union is close by, it's not like Central America, it's a strategic region right near their border, they're involved; it's very far from us but it's a strategic region for us because of the oil nearby, primarily. So we're involved, the fleets come into confrontation, it's very close. In 1967 it came very close to nuclear war and it will again. So it's very dangerous, it's the most likely spot where a nuclear war would develop, but we are pursuing it, because we don't want a political settlement. The United States is intent on maintaining a military confrontation.

-- Snip by Moderator --

Please note that DU respects the notion of fair use and asks that citations of copyrighted material be limited to no more than 3-4 paragraphs and include a link to the original article. There is no link here, but the content was trimmed accordingly.

Lithos
DU Moderator

,...because he's pro-humanitarian.

Capitalism trumps democracy, humanitarianism, rule of law, human dignity and LIFE and decency.

That, capitalism, is what wars are all about: possessions. Possessed.

Chomsky has a lot of credibility - I think. Knowledgeable and sees things from all sides. (Of course that makes him unpopular with some people.)

It's always the old who lead us to war
It's always the young who fall
No, I AIN'T MARCHIN' ANYMORE!

The late and very great Phil Ochs, telling it like it is, as usual.

God do I hate killing and cruelty. Humans are definitely not one of my favorite species, but I hate it when ours get killed.

I have a friend who just came back from Israel, an observant Jew, she says, "they're all crazy over there". I think that's the best explanation. Among disparate religions, that's the only thing they have in common.
Shalom, y'all.

going to drag us into it.

They have been looking for an excuse to escalate things with Iran...

There is so much Love in this world being shadowed by,...well, the darkest parts of the human soul.

When enough death infiltrates the proponents of darkness, the smoke will clear and we will, once again, see the life of Love.

I cannot conceive of a solution that involves bombing milk factories! It is a completely despicable act in a war filled with despicable acts. We, as a country, are not in a position to judge, given our own despicable acts.

I truly blame the Bush Administration for this because they have made no effort over the years to move the peace process forward. None whatsoever. They are not interested in diplomacy. Only the kind involving guns and bombs. I am also afraid that this is all the excuse Bush needs to get us involved in Iran and/or Syria, who are culpable in some way (that I don't completely understand). Plus they get Armageddon, which is the Christian Taliban's wet dream.

Thanks for the rant-you said it way better than I ever could have!

It spread from Wash, DC.

:hug:

This is exactly how I feel.EXACTLY.

:thumbsup:

But then again, the who situation is mad-crazy, so I guess it makes sense that one of the craziest people in the Lounge is seeing the situtation most clearly. :)

Right on, matcom!!

War is, indeed, always the result of a failure, on both sides of a question, to manage a dispute reasonably. There are eminently sensible compromises that could have settled this dispute long ago, and that majorities on both sides would have been most satisfied with, particularly if acceptance meant no further violence.

spiel of obscenities I have seen on DU there is something of value? I missed it.
Just sounds like he hates everyone and everybody. If that is not what is being intended, perhaps I would suggest different wording.

War is the result of failure of sensible compromises,...

,...sensible compromises that would serve their own people, would advance all humanity.

However, we're not dealing with either sensible leaders or those willing to compromise, these days.

:cry:

I feel so sad for humanity. So sad.

put those that want to fight each other in a room and let them at it.

the war mongers are either anti-israel or anti-arab, and there's aq big difference there.

The two aren't necessarily exclusive.

And you nailed it right on the head....

Recommended post.

I thought we all wanted no more war...anywhere.

There are long time DUers who suddenly become warmongers as soon as Israel is thrown in the mix. I find it appalling.

people are the worst! There will be no more war when there are no more people.

There is only one final solution to the war question...

but I certainly do. Thanks

Oh what are you going to do, man? Sit there while they shoot you? What a dipshit!

Matcom, you rule! Thank you.

I used to like my job working here at the magazine stand, but ever since this ME thing I'm constantly having to deal with idiotic people on both sides who just want to throw down on the issue.

I want someone to invent a line of munitions that can only hurt the true believers on both sides. That way these crazy fucks can blow each other to smithereens without the rest of the (rational and reasonable) people getting caught in the crossfire.

:wow:, just :wow: !

:yourock: :woohoo: :applause:

Thanks for saying it. I posted something similar the other night...not "quite" so colorful but I was thinking the same thing.

Don't worry, plenty of us here who see the situation for what it is. Extremism on BOTH sides.

K&R

I'm not gonna say fuck 'em and let them slaughter each other without at least trying to do something.

Also, the conflict is constantly flamed by the extreme parties on both sides that drag the innocent people in it. We shouldn't give up on all the innocent people who are dragged into this by the nutjobs on both sides.

It's quite silly...

and I agree we have heard far too much rooting for Israel to basically act as a mad dog, but your dismissal of the smallness of the land area being fought over is childish, you don't know enough probably to trivilialize what this means to those involved

afore you wuz bitchin' about 3

aint so complicated now, is it, ?

:hi:

and refuse to stop, the only thing you can say that makes any sense is "a pox on both your houses" . . .

and if you cant see it from a home perspective then I hope that this Israel, Palistine and middle east war party opens your eyes.
I must include the fact that, without any doudt, that the Christian Right has in some way gotten involved. Why? Because they are dying to convert Israel and get them to accept jeebus as the son of god. Not only is this political, its extremely religious and toxic.

Israelites are the decendants of wandering desert nomands who were only prior captives of Babylon, the name Irael is also misleading because they are actually Hebrews (hrbr meaning in aramaic "Wanderer")They changed their name in hopes of becoming more established since "Wanderer" was a rather low title . These Nomads have not changed hardly at all over the enons, they are still bitter because their "god" made promises that it obviously did not keep, "should of stuck with Molech you fools". These Nomads had no country, no home and no history, they basicly took mythologies and tales from the Babylonians, Sumarians and other surrounding socities. As these Nomads criss-crossed the Deserts they robbed, raped, pillaged and terrorized the surrounding countries inhabitants, from that I think you can surmise that they were not in the least bit welcomed anywhere. Egypt didnt even want to deal with these vagabounds, specially after they plagued the country with vanarial diseases. Thats how the Moses figure came to be, he was asked by the Pharaoh to escourt them back into the Desert and away from Eqypt.

Israel is only protected by the US because of religious reasons, its obvious, may not be in front of you but if you look more into fine line detail you will see it. Megachurch mad men are cheering high and load right now because they want this feaud, this War. Its all part of the Prophicidal Suicide, which would not come to pass unless it was forced to come to pass, which is exactlly whats happening.

Religion is of the past and should be made a relic. Its counter productive to the betterment of human society, a laymens way to quick answers because he is to weak to face the truth and look beyond his narrow border and brainwashing. Those who choice such paths are lost indiviuals set forth upon a road that has been trampled under foot for millenia, the time to start the de-religionization process is now. When you look at when the Bible came into beign, it hampered and cripppled. Egypt gave us the mathmatical concept of Pi; what has the Bible done? Not one thing accept set us back on a dramatic scale that makes one sick to stop and think about it. Instead of progess, we get supression. Instead of break throughs we get dogmas....My limit is becoming acceded by Zionist cult fanatics whom I believe should denounce their faith or commit mass suicide.

Bush, The Freepers, The NeoCons, and The Fundies need instability in that part of the world.

Here's why.

Posted By Ti at theoildrum

Let's do some geopolitical reality check. What is going on in Lebanon? Just the next step in the grand plan of reshaping the Middle East and first operations in the war against Iran (and Syria).

Let's see. The British and French announced for evacuation of their citizens right in the beginning of the hostilities, when the potential evacuees didn't yet think they were in danger. The locals thought that the shelling would be limited to parts of the Southern Lebanon as usual and people elsewhere would be safe. But no. The was no "we follow the situation and decide later if the evacuation is necessary", as you could expect. The decision was pre-made and the plans were ready and practical arrangements made in advance.

All the decisions on Lebanons future are made in advance. We already know that there will be "international" troops. This decision needed some negotiations, before the present crisis began, so it was made before the hostilities started. There will be a "Balkan" solution, like in Kosovo. Permanent US bases, British and French, too, some Russian and European token troops. Occupation "UN" government and all that. "Reconstruction" a la Iraq.

Snip ......

http://www.theoildrum.com/story/2006/7/19/2196/19689#15

Terrific rant. Expresses exactly what I'm screaming inside.

:yourock:

She is ONE LUCKY WOMAN!


Rock on!

:toast:

My heart aches too much. I don't give a flying fig for the Israelis or the Arabs. I do care about all of the people who live in Israeli and Arab territory. You're right. This sucks!

damned if we don't

...because your team is losing.

:hide:

:thumbsup:

Ever since this new ME war started, this place is the Twilight Zone.

How can there be years of loathing the Iraq war, and now people are taking sides

on this war. It is still a stinking war.

War is never the solution and it always creates more problems.

We need talented, tough diplomats, not missle launchers.

The End.

Can't just leave a blank. Which hardline religiopathic torture advocate do you like better?

Blank. Me. Too.

sitting at an American computer desk; when it wasn't your family member who was killed by a bomb; when it's not you being pushed out of your neighborhood.

Yes, humans fucking suck ass. And for that very reason, fighting for what's right is sometimes necessary.

Now you know how the rest of the world feels about America.

in kindergarten!

Oy! ;)

Seriously, I had just written that, minus all the 'fucks,' not that I mind them included.

If anyone spends a few days (yes days) reading the history of the area from multiple sources and if they have an open and logical mind, they can only concluded what we did.

Thanks for your post matcom.

talks that Clinton nearly brought to completion. Then, 2 years ago, W blamed Clinton for the unrest in ME : "because his negotiations raised expectations"

They're all fighting for their "sacred sand".

First of all Israel is a country, and Arab is a race, but you probably didn't mean that.

Aside from that, the debate I've seen is between those who are in favor of a pro-Israel bias, vs. those who are opposed to a pro-Israel bias.

I haven't ready any post that is arguing in favor of pro-Arab bias.

It is the same type of false debate as was promoted regarding Iraq, all over again. There if you were against the invasion, you were "in favor of Saddam". That was a false choice.

Again I have to adjust my expectations downward. DU is not my refuge away from binary thinking.... sigh.

And screw them both for claiming to be the victims, too.

There is too much good in life to waste it on this crap.

The Arab side (or sides, since it seems to come from different groups and countries everywhere) doesn't seem to know when to quit their hopeless cause of getting rid of Israel. The Israeli side never seems to get that they can't just take over an area of land and just expect the natives to go off and be happy for them.

I'm a people person ...I hate em all

flamebait