"Israel" and "Jews" are NOT interchangable terms.

Israel is a fucking state, a governmental body.

The concept of Israel is a part of Judaism, but only the Zionists really see the two as one in the same.

"Zionists are a small subset of Jews, just as all Christians are not Southern Baptists."
The above sentence was an error on my part that has inflamed some 'roids, so allow me to correct it.
The Zionists who wanted to establish Israel in its current location were a small subset of all Jews. All but a small subset of all Jews feel that this location may not have been a very good choice. However, nearly all Jews support the continued existance of Israel.

A big part of the fights we've been having on DU this week come from ignorant people fucking this up.

One can be against one and not the other.

...people not making this distinction.

even those claiming anti-semitism towards people criticizing the policy of Israel.

I know some people are defensive on the subject and quick to jump the gun, but a whole lot of non-Jews don't really get it.

I understand that a some people have been screaming anti-semitism. I'm saying that the people who do so understand that it's not anti-semitism but they're saying it is anyway.

:toast:

the people.
I'm mostly pissed @ the US for providing cover for Israel to make the same mistake made in Iraq.

War cannot stop terror. War creates more terrorists.

...not pointing the finger at one side or the other.

95% of the people in Israel support what the Israeli government is doing.

Source: http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L21734098.htm

...have repeated failed attempts at peace and see who you'll vote for. I'm not condoning the violence, but don't be so thick as to not understand what's going on.

A response to the statement from post #3:

"I'm angry @ the Government of Israel and Hezbollah not the people."

The people of Israel overwhelmingly support what the government is doing. How can one be angry at the government and not the people when there is near unanimous support from the people regarding what the government is doing?

support % so The Bush Administration is the US.

Is it one now?

Israel exists in the wrong place imho. It's policy runs contrary to most jewish beliefs, which are secular progressive and liberal.

"It's policy runs contrary to most jewish beliefs, which are secular progressive and liberal."

eom

I think maybe it was just a poor choice of words, but you get the idea.

mattered to Hitler.

Nor would the fact that I've never self-identified as "Jewish" a day in my life.

One Jewish grandparent would have done the trick.

So, Judaism is a religion, but Jewish is a ethnicity and a cultural identity as well.

Most non-Jews don't really consider all of these factors when discussing Israel, Jews and Judaism, and they see Jewish defensiveness as unnecessary or over-the-top. My intention is to help all us goyim understand things a little better, however poorly I may be doing the job.

Most Jews prefer the term Christian, non -Jew , or Gentile.


http://www.faqs.org/faqs/judaism/FAQ/11-Miscellaneous/section-6.html

To call a non-Jew goyim is tandamount to calling a black person "colored".

However, as a White non-Jew, I can call myself goyim all the fuck I want. It doesn't offend me, I think it's funny, and I'm sorry if it bothers you, but I don't care. It's a term of endearment in my circle.

I'm just sawing that most aware Jewish folks avoid terms like "shiksa", "goyem", "schwartza", and "fagela" .

That's obnoxious horseshit. Thanks for playing.

...refugees most likely, and the Zionists were chomping at the bit to get that particular part of the desert because of its history. I agree that Israel exists in the wrong place - it should've been in Germany or Austria. But, shit happens and we're stuck with the decisions of previous generations.

Israel's policy does run contrary to most Jewish beliefs. However, if you surround any population with people who want to kill you to the point that they strap explosives to children who blow up in public places that maximize civilian deaths, after several failed attempts at peace, those people will elect anyone who seems confident that they can stop the violence, even if that is through more violence.

But it is also a lie. Is there a "safe haven" for Tutsis? Gypsies? Zoroastrians? No, so it's not about that. At all.

in Israel. Just ask the Israeli Arabs.

it seems that I heard that they are not full citizens. Israel does not represent them IOW.

from the ADL:

Israeli law makes no distinction between its Arab and Jewish citizens. Israeli Arab citizens enjoy the same rights as their Jewish neighbors. They are free to practice their religion without discrimination, in accordance with Israel’s commitment to democracy and freedom. There are a number of Israeli Arab parties represented in the Israeli Knesset (parliament), and Arab members of Knesset are extremely vocal in promoting their issues and opinions. Recently, disappointed by the scarcity of Arab ministers in high-level governmental positions, the Israeli courts instituted a policy of affirmative action for Arabs in the higher echelons of the government. In 2004, an Israeli Arab, Salim Jubran, was appointed to the Israeli Supreme Court.

the FACT is that Arab Israelis are treated like dirt, and if you claim the opposite then you are in denial. Most of the Arabs in Israel were pushed out, and don't even get me STARTED on the Bedouin.

..as the Jews, to return to what they consider their ancestral homelands in the area?

I guess where the ADL is somewhat misleading is that Arab citizens have the same rights as Jewish citizens, but Arabs do not have the same right to *become* Israeli citizens, unless they can prove they are Jewish in some way.

One does not have to be Jewish to become a citizen of Israel.

Are you familiar with the law(s) of return?
Person "a" is an Athiest, with "Roman Catholic bloodlines", going back 3 generations.
Person "b" is an Athiest, with "Jewish bloodlines", going back 3 generations.

If you think those two people have the same chance of receiving identical benefits of immigration, housing, relocation, and attaining citizenship in Israel, you are utterly, devastatingly, *wrong*.

Are you trying to discuss the Palestinians?

With the same rights?
Regardless of genetics?

I think you are confusing "the law of return" for the criteria for citizenship. Non-Jews can indeed become citizens, including Arabs, though the naturalization process. The Palestinians, however, face a different challenge, though there are also cases of Palestinians becoming Israeli citizens, but they cannot be Palestinian citizens (no dual citizenship).

However, the Israeli couples I've met say that most people get along similar to how we do (or don't) here.

is that Arab Israelis are full citizens of the state. There is discrimination but it isn't legally codified.

10 out of 120

Composition of the 17th Knesset (elected 2006)
Kadima 29
Labor 19
Shas 12
Likud 12
Yisrael Beytenu 11
National Union/National Religious Party* 9
Gil 7
United Torah Judaism** 6
Meretz-Yachad 5
United Arab List 4
Hadash 3
Balad 3

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knesset#Composition_of_the_17th_Knesset_.28elected_2006.29

Didn't it take us until the 1980's to get a woman? I certainly wouldn't claim that there isn't prejudice in Israel, anymore than I'd claim there isn't prejudice here.

not someone I'm particularly fond of, but he was our governor, his son is our senator- and daddy bush tapped him for Chief of staff-

Much to the frustration of many Americans of the Jewish faith.

I'm an American Jew. I consider Israel to be a Jewish State, and I'm not alone. Israel considers itself to be a Jewish State.

I consider your comments to be inflammitory.

Please believe me when I tell you I'm not picking a fight with you. I don't know you, and I have no desire to get into it with you, I just strongly disagree with you, and honestly, I do not see your point.

I don't doubt that you see things as you do or that there are others who believe the same thing. However, that is not the only viewpoint, and my explanation as opposed to yours allows those who don't understand Judaism at all (i.e. most non-Jews) to wrap their heads around the complexity of the situation. I would argue that your position is far more detrimental to this conversation than my comments are inflammatory, but we don't need to agree.

Which is why, as a secularist with fantasies about building berlin walls between church and state, I am opposed to much of the aid (read military) provided by the US to Israel. No offense, but to me, injecting religion into government is always a bad idea.

And to those knee jerks who want to label me anti-semitic, spare me. I spread my disdain for religion evenly across the board :-)

interchangeable.

There are Muslim and Christian Israelis. There are certainly many Jews worldwide who are not Israelis.

And maybe I'm dense, but may I ask what you found offensive about the OP?

why does this matter? Israel is a state, it is a country, it does not and cannot truly represent Judaism. That's like saying Pakistan represents Islam or Greece represents Christianity.

They equate Saudi Arabia or Iran with Islam. I see it on this board all the time. They start with the term "radical Muslim", but then soon quickly turn to their REAL feelings. It is like equating Catholicism with child-molestation because some priests have been predators to kids.

I know many Arabs & Muslims & I am offended that more DU'ers don't challenge the racist speech going on here.

On edit: good point BTW!!!

and unfortunately so.

It is terrible and wrong how Islam gets such a perception simply because of Muslim terrorists. Also, for example, why does no one react in remotely the same way when the Lord's Resistance Army in Uganda (Christian) chop kids' arms and noses off?

Actually, I think I've been making progress with someone who thought he hated jews,
and is coming to understand his problem is with zionists.

I'd add that the Christian Zionists in America are the ones who are most anxious for war in Israel.

They don't care about the Muslims, the Arabs OR the Jews.

The false equation of “Zionism equals racism” has its origins in the passage of the Arab and Soviet-sponsored United Nations resolution of November 10, 1975 which declared Zionism a “form of racism and racial discrimination.” The highly politicized resolution was aimed at denying Israel its political legitimacy by attacking its moral basis for existence. The resolution, which U.N. Secretary General Kofi Annan described as a “low point” in the history of the U.N., was finally repealed on December 16, 1991. Unfortunately, there have been numerous efforts by Arab representatives at international conferences and forums to reintroduce this heinous equation.


web definition of zionist: Zionism is a political movement among Jews, although supported by some non-Jews and not supported by some Jews, which maintains that the Jewish people constitute a nation and are entitled to a national homeland.

eom

entitled to a national homeland.

Christian Armenians are one such group.

it is an agenda which trys to distinguish Jews from Zionists, but the reality is that most Jews are Zionists

It is distorted because the reality is they want to roll back the clock and say Israel doesn't exist

Well they better get used to it, ISRAEL IS HERE TO STAY, and until that is accepted, this shit will continue

another code word is "right of return", which is another name for destruction of Israel

Until they stop trying to roll back the clock, and accept Israel's existence, there will be no peace

Israel is here to stay

The right of a person to return to one's homeland is found all over the world.
See:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_of_return

Law of Return is an Israeli body of law based on that right, specifically aimed at strengthening the ethnic and religious Jewish character of Israel (to the exclusion of those not considered "Jewish enough" to freely immigrate into Israel, for example, Arab muslims).
See:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Return

You may be right that if Israel were a democracy that honored the Geneva conventions and the UDHR, it might have resulted, or might still result, in a 'non-Jewish majority' democracy, and the resulting state might even choose to change its name, or policies, etc.

I'm not sure if that's "The destruction of Israel", but if a nation is promoting equality of *all* peoples over the equality of some ethnicities or religions at a cost to others, sign me up.... of course, like everything else in this conflict, it's never as simple as that.

-Eris

edit: removed the exact Hebrew terminology for Law of Return, as DU doesn't want handle a Hebrew charset inline properly, tightened up some phrasing.

entails the forced mass eviction of other peoples.

Furthermore, what are you talking about and what does it have to do with the topic?

Proper use of certain words:

Do not use the term "Zionist" to mean "Jew" or "Israeli." Do not use the term "Jew" to mean "Israeli".

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x21970

it is as simple as that

98% of the Jews IN THE WORLD are Zionists

Don't distort what you don't know

However, the term has come to mean much more, and ignoring that doesn't help the conversation. In the end, my distinction will offend less people and allow us to discuss this conflict in a civil manner. Don't assume.

Zionism

A Jewish movement that arose in the late 19th century in response to growing anti-Semitism and sought to reestablish a Jewish homeland in Palestine. Modern Zionism is concerned with the support and development of the state of Israel.

Source: http://education.yahoo.com/reference/dictionary/entry/Zionism

...in its current location. In fact, for quite a while there was no physical location at all for the Promised Land, and that was just fine for many Jews. Only a small group of Zionists felt hellbent on making it in Palestine. Now that it is established, nearly all Jews support its existance, though many admit that its location may not be the best. Does that clarify enough?

I just do not agree with your orignal premise:

"Zionists are a small subset of Jews"

As you just posted "nearly all Jews support its existance".

I believe that Zionism means supporting and developing the State of Israel (as the definition I cited states).

And I think you will agree, by that definition, more than a small subset of Jews are Zionists.

I know I am a newbie here, and I am not trying to make trouble, but I don't think it's fair to attempt to divorce Zionism from the Jewish people.

I would argue that most Democrats in Congress would identify themselves as Zionists as well.

What I should've said was "a small group of Zionists" rather than "a small group of Zionist Jews." I apologize. Now that we are past that, can you agree with meat of the post?

If the meat of your post is that most people don't know much about the history of Zionism and that lack of knowledge leads to misunderstandings then I agree.

because that is exactly what you are implying

Israel is here to stay, and until the middle east accepts, you can forget about peace

The term "Zionist" has been distorted in recent years to mean something like "Jewish supremacist," but in reality it means nothing of the kind. A Zionist is someone who believes in the right of the Jewish people to self-determination in their own homeland. After all, why should we be the only people in the world who DON'T intrinsically possess that right? That being the case, the vast majority of American Jews including me don't hesitate to call themselves Zionists. What's going on here reminds me of the demonization of the word "liberal" by the RW over the past 20 years or so. I'll be damned if I'm going to start being ashamed to call myself a Zionist just because OTHER PEOPLE want to misuse that word!

NT!

...all week.

NT!

Indonesia has the world's largest Muslim population, IIRC.

My internal alert always goes on when I read that confusion...

Iran: Persian muslims, not Arabic
Southern Turkey/Northern Iraq: Kurdish muslims, not Arabic
Maltese: Maltese muslims, not arabic

Arabic is spoken in Asia just like Germanic langauge is spoken in the US... it's all over the place, sometimes a new language, sometimes not. Sure, on DU, most of us are actually *speaking* a variant of german, but wie viele (oops) "how many" of us would know that?

fundamentalists than they do with the Jewish people as a hole. They (all) bread a dangerous religious nationalism that alienates large swaths of people living inside of "occupied territories".

Interpreting America as a "Christian nation", or looking at a map and having dreams of bringing back a Muslim run Ottoman Empire, or the last state standing from the era of European colonialism seeking to build a "Jewish nation" reads very much the same to me. Internally it breeds exclusion and inequality. Democratizing those contexts will always entail some measure of ethnic cleansing and apartheid; because only certain groups are afforded the personhood required for citizenship...and so the "perfect race mentality" these groups carry must seek purity. In America we "cleansed" the land of the "dirty savage". In what used to be Palestine they cleansed Israel of the "dirty savage cum terrorist". And the damn infidel keeps peaking her head around every damn corner of the Muslim world. We are watching some radical conservatives battle out in a turf war like gangs of thugs hoping to secure their block, or even children who refuse to share their barbies. All three groups show the growth of an arrested psyche stuck somewhere in the thumbsucking stage still unable to come to grips with their own identity...and so they lash out at all who dare question.


But of course I'm sure pointing that out will hit a little too close to home.

...the strict definition of Zionist is simply someone who believes the Jews should have a Jewish homeland, which basically makes all Jews Zionists. My mistake, and that of others, was in not specifying which Zionists, the ones who were the somewhat-militant European refugees of general mistreatment and a couple of world wars who decided that Israel had to be in Palestine even before the British won the area as spoils and gave it to them.

It sounds like you are talking about Orthodox Jews, who tend to be on the fanatical side and, quite frankly, irritating. Most of my experience is with Reform Jews, and I'd be happy to keep it that way.

Further adding complexity, there are multiple Jewish ethnicities, multiple Jewish genetic traits, and multiple Branches of Jewish faith.

Examples:
1. A person has a Jewish egg donor/surrogate mother. They are then raised by in a mormon family. Are they Jewish?
2. A person has a mother, who had a mother, who was raised Jewish. Both that person, and their mother, are not religious. Are they Jewish?
3. A person who comes from thousands of years of christian bloodlines and traditions decides to convert in their older years, after their kids have left the house. After conversion, are they Jewish? Are their children?
4. A person from a Ashkenazi chasidic bloodline, and corresponding set of family traditions, decides to get baptized into the Catholic church. Are they Jewish?

See:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_is_a_Jew%3F

For some discussion.

Interestingly enough, to address a prior argument being made, some scholars (such as Ido Abram) make a form of Israeli Zionism a *requirement* to be Jewish, so in that line of argument, *unless* they support an Israeli homeland for Jews, they are not Jewish, therefore, all Jews *are* Zionists (and around and around it goes....)

Good thing we have DU around to finally settle the matter. :-D

-Eris

All hail Discordia!