Whether Israel is justified or not does anyone believe they are now safer

Has this offensive (notice how true that word is over things like this) made Israel a safer nation? Do the other Arab nations throughout the region now quake with fear and prostrate themselves before Israel? Will the market place bombing through out Israel now stop? What truly has this accomplished if Peace is their goal? I just don't get it.. Republicans have stated they would rather be feared than loved and they have accomplished their goal but are we truly safer because of it? Does anyone at all remember "The golden Rule"?

and cheer this abomination on. NONE.

We have just inbibed a brand new generation with hate that will last a lifetime.

I've talked to soldiers who are already expecting to be deployed to Lebanon or Syria or Iran. Their orders are fluid depending on what happens.

They have provided Hezbollah with the greatest recruiting tool imaginable. They act like Hezbollah is a concrete organization of a few thousand rag-tag troops. In reality it is a philosophy which more and more are responding to after seeing how barbaric Israel will act.

not so much because of Israel, but because of the US standing behind Israel.

Hard to see why they would, really. We no longer have a reserve of menace.

I think that the islamofascists have been greatly emboldened (and greatly multiplied in number) by our failure in Iraq. I suspect that part why Israel is doing what it's doing is to send the message that they are not the US; that Israel can take care of business if it needs to.

(And yes, I do believe that Israel is safer for its actions.)

it isn't illustrative of independent action, is it?

I'm curious - was this planned a year ago with the US? Evidence please?

Even if it was planned with the US, it is still indepenent in that the Israelis are fighting by themselves - and their forces are competently led.

This article http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/07/21/MNG2QK396D1.DTL&hw=kalman&sn=001&sc=1000 describes how Israel planned this. According to the article "a senior Israeli army officer began giving PowerPoint presentations, on an off-the-record basis, to U.S. and other diplomats, journalists and think tanks, setting out the plan for the current operation in revealing detail."

However, I think that this would be best characterized as "Israel briefed the US a year ago" rather than "Israel planned this with the US a year ago"

Another question. The Article states "In a sense, the preparation began in May 2000, immediately after the Israeli withdrawal, when it became clear the international community was not going to prevent Hezbollah from stockpiling missiles and attacking Israel." (emphasis mine).

Do you agree that it was clear that "the international community not... prevent Hezbollah from stockpiling missiles and attacking Israel"?

But did find this one recapping @ Scoop

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0607/S00374.htm

Did you get lost trying to get to another website?

Islamofascist is a fairly descriptive word - even a stopped clock is correct twice a day.

Can you suggest a better alternative?

Shame On You.

They want everyone to become Muslim. Or die.

Note that I'm not saying that all Muslims are fascists. The IslamoFascists are a specific group.

Syria is sitting on the sidelines in an act of semi-revenge againstlast year's forced pull-out...

The Gulf countries can do little anyway... Egypt and Jordan are basically US proxies. What can Iran do? Very little from a distance...

that the Cabal doesn't give a flip about which of them they invade. Neither wants to be first. And, I'm still not clear who did what last year that resulted in the pullout. I wonder if Condi made Syria an offer they couldn't refuse.

It's creepy to put nothing past your own government.

It wasn't Hezbollah that pushed Syria out of Lebanon. I'm not so sure Syria wants to punish Hezbollah in order to punish the Lebanese.

Iran can launch ballistic missles. It is restrained from doing that by the reality of retaliation.

I agree that Jordan and Eygpt aren't ready to attack Israel, but this morning the King of Jordan accused Israel of war crimes.

The key will be what parents, madrassas, imam and clerics teach the next generation about Israel's actions and of the nature of every Israeli.

Whether the current military adventure is immoral or not is no longer important. It will be taught to the next generation as the most heinous war crimes. It will be used as propaganda to teach and indoctrinate children so thoughly that it will be taken as that the Israeli Aggression of 2006 contained the worst crimes ever.

Worse the the Sack of Magdeburg, Worse than the Rape of Nanking, Worse than the Destruction of Baghdad.

This will be known to millions. and those millions will continue the cycle by endorsing the destruction of Israel, causing the children in Israel to be subject to the same sort of propaganda.

Which in turn will lead to further violence and bloodshed and this is the gift we shall pass on to our future generations, forever and ever, unto the end of the world...

mistake.

First of all, if the Arab nations thought they could, they would have invaded Israel years ago, so they are 'afraid', because they would 'lose'. The reason that Israel is having such trouble here is that they're making the same mistake that we made in Iraq and are attempting to do this 'on the cheap' without ground forces. You cannot vanquish an enemy, particularly an guerrilla enemy, from the air alone. If they laid waste to the sector completely, the'd be thousands of civilians dead, and they just don't do things like that despite what you may read on DU.

Second, urban terrorist attacks are down following the building of the fence and the closure of many of the pass-thru checkpoints. So that has helped. People hate the Wall, but it works.

Third, The Golden Rule - sure, if we're all playing in what we call the Judeo-Christian manner, it works great. But unfortunately, if Israel laid down its arms, they'd be exterminated. You can complain about that all you want, but I'm, afraid that it's true. Even the Arabs say so.

And if Democrats take control America will go to hell in a hand basket.........:shrug:

I take the exterminators at their word...

One thing about these people, they do what they'll say they'll do when it comes to death. They have since time immemorial.

Putting aside your gross generalization about "these people", that being arabs I supposed...of which I'm a proud member...

I think you're right and wrong, if that's possible. I think if Israel laid down arms, she would cease to exist, but not because of say Jordan or Egypt. Syria, maybe. They're still baathist which means they are dangerous. I think though the biggest danger would be from teh palestinians. It would be akin to letting the prisoners out of a maximum security life sentance prison and just drop them off in a small town. The place would be in flames before nightfall.

As far as the major nations of the region, I don't think they would do anything. Egypt and Jordan felt their 'honor' was proven after the 73 war just by fighting it, and have since signed peace treaties and agreements that I think they would honor. Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, and the Gulf States really only care about their oil profits, and wouldn't do a dang thing because they could care less no matter their bluster. Iraq is imploding on itself, the north african countries (libya, algeria, tunisia, morrocco) are either powerless or apathetic or both.

Really the only countries for Israel to honestly worry about any more are Syria and Iran (and by proxy the terrorists supported by them like Hezbollah). Therefore if Israel were to 'lay down arms' I agree, they would be in trouble, but only from a couple countries, not the entire region as a whole. I just don't see it.

With that said, I think these latest attacks are against Israel's best interests. What they need is greater regional stability. An economically successfull lebanon, with a standard of living comparable to Israel, I think wouldn't harbor any terrorists the way it does now. In fact I wouldn't be surprised if Lebanon was on a economic standard of living par with Israel that there would be lots of trade between the two countries, and a highway from Tel Aviv to Beirut with a highly trafficed border crossing.

So blasting half the country back to ground zero is, I think, against Israeli interests, not to mention borderline war crimes and collective punishment. I think that Israel should definately be attacking any rocket emplacements in the south that are firing on Israel. I'm a pacifist but I see the logic of doing that, but bombing of highways and cities is counter productive. They are doing it to prevent resupply to Hezbollah, but I think do themselves more harm than good in those attacks when civilians die and factories are destroyed.

I've said it before, and I"ll say it again...If Israel truly wants peace, they need to engage these other countries. Tie themselves to them with peace agreements and economic aid, and open trade. SUre there would be holdovers and it would take time but it might actually make them progress.

I remmeber something Rabin said once. He was fond of using parables, as you might recall, and pardon me if I butcher this one. When asked about the peace process he told a parable like this...

Two men went deer hunting and killed a stag with antlers. They began dragging it back home through the brush when the antlers got snagged on a tree. Instead of struggling forward, the one man suggested they do it a different way, so the grabbed the hind legs and began dragging him that way so the antlers wouldn't catch on the bushes. After a bit the second man turned to the first and said "This is much easier to pull the deer this way, but aren't we now going in the wrong direction?"

Rabin was a good man.

until two things happen.

They make a good faith negotiation to allow a viable Palestinian state. A co-equal Palestinian state with equal land and water rights.
They come to understand that if they hold a whole people responsible for the actions of a few, they will drive those people into supporting terrorism.
If one is just as likely to be bombed if they are a civilian as they are if they are a terrorist, what incentive is their to live in peace?

since you are a proud member of the "arab race" i think its only fair to introduce myself as an israeli jew.....

the aspect of which is missing in your analysis (of which i agree with much) is Hizballa and their plans....for its is they that ruin the Tel Aviv/Beirut highway. My impression is that hizballa with iranian backing simply planned on taking over Lebanon a bit at a time. First they get S. Lebanon, they get parts of Beruit, get in the govt....

i hate to sound absurd, but i see this war as not only inevitable but in the long run maybe (and i dont even pretend to forcast any middle east future) even saved lebanon. Hizballas must be the only militia in the world with over 10,000 missles, sophisticated command and control as well as backup systems.

If they can be weakened, disarmed or whatever it is that lets the lebanese back into S. Lebanon and into Beruits S. neighborhoods, then its a positive aspect for Lebanon..but without israels intervention (much like israel saving Jordan in the 70's), I dont believe Lebanon had a bright future with Hizballa in their backyard.

Furthermore, i think every arab state, from jordan to egypt to saudi arabia is quietly cheering israel on. A hizballa "win" which means an iranian win, is not good for them either.


my conclusion..as long as it weakens Hizballa, to the point of making them mere criminals, it will make the entire middle east safer

I think everyone can agree that Hezbollah is the big problem when it comes to Lebanese AND northen Israeli security. The thing is to make them criminals, not martyrs.

That's one thing that often gets overlooked in Israeli analysis which is just how effective these groups are at playing the martyr card. Then Israel plays their game and bombs a missile emplacement killing children. The problem is that the LOCAL people don't blame Hezbollah for that, no matter what Israel or the rest of the world says or thinks. All they see are dead kids and babies and women. Next thing you know those kids fathers brothers, cousins, etc, are blowing up busses in Haifa or Tel Aviv because they've been literally made insane from their loss. All it does is create more terrorists.

Now, i'm not saying they can't defend themselves from rockets raining down on them, but they need to have perspective too, which is hard when you're under fire. The goal is to not necessarily stop the rockets RIGHT NOW, as much as stop them PERMANENTLY. That's the tough part. It's easy, or at least easier, to stop them now...IT's much more difficult to stop them in the long run.

The goal should be empowering the Lebanese people, as the world HAS been doing. The more prosperous the poeple in the south are, the less likely they'll get tied up with Hezbollah or worse, actually attack Israel. A man with a good job, healthcare, safety for his family, food on the table...he generally won't go out of his way to hurt someone else. It's because these areas are poor and oppressed (by Israel, Syria, and Hezbollah) that the violence continues.

So my point is yeah, you're right. Hezbollah needs to be gone. The thing is I just don't see the current action doing that. I see it strengthening them in the long run. Like cutting one of the heads off a hydra, they'll just grow two more. That kind of action by Israel, will never win the peace. It'll just create more problems for the future.

Solution? I'm not sure. Any reasonable solution would require international, and particularly Lebanese assistance. Without those two I'm not sure an easy solution exists. It would be interesting to see though what would happen if instead of returning Hezbollah's rockets with bombs, they sent aid packages.

One misconception,,,I have little doubt that the peace between Egypt and israel exists b/c the billions paid to Egypt in foreign aid is the bribe. I have no problem with that. when a governmetn takes over there which doesn't care whether they receive the $$ or not, then we may have another story. The coldest of cold peace, as they say.

I have nothing but respect and to a degree some fair sympathy for the Arab populations all over the world. The Bush people have vilified them on every opportunity while doing the biggest of big business with the leaders. Arafat stole billions from the Palestinians and screwed them totally. They are used as proxies to fight wars...unnecessarily. It's a global tragedy.

But you're right. All it would take is a crazy government to get installed for there to be a problem again. For the most part though I think Egyptians are, like us real Arabs (little sarcastic dig at the Egyptians there ;) ), not really interested in provoking Israel anymore. They're just sick of the situation and want the whole thing over.

A viable Palestinian state, enough aid to bring the standard of living up in the areas, etc...that would do it for them and most other Arabs at this point. SUre there are those 'drive them into the sea' guys, but honestly...they're rare. They're the KKK of the middle east. They just get more airplay because the MSM finds it more interesting to interview crackpots than people with valid points of view.

Honestly, the hatred of Israel that I recall from thirty years ago has tempered for the most part to just a general distaste, a recognition that it isnt' going anywhere and just a general desire for people to stop being killed because it makes us (arabs) look really fucking stupid. The whole Golda Meir thing of "they'll stop when they love their children more..." has happened...now it's just a matter of getting the rest of the extremists to feel the same way. It's just hard to do that when their children keep getting killed. Cause then they hate the Israeli children, but have no children of their own to love anymore.

is breed more anger and hate. At this point, with 37 dead children today, I have little hope left that there will be any peaceful solution.

The press is reporting that the crowds of Lebanese outside the UN building in Beirut include Shiites, Sunnis and Christians shouting "Death to Israel! Death to America!"

Israel will feel the blow back, and so will the US.

Of course it's death to Israel Death to America.

here's a question...when the 9/11 attacks occurred, whether you agree with the official version or not, that's another question for another time, were there Americans in the street chanting, Death to the Arabs? We dont' do that- we stew quietly, have our prejudices, but do not call for the Death of a Nation, no matter what. Not even in the coldest part of the cold war.

You must remember the cultures you're dealing with here...They're not like us.

our enemies from afar and cheer the televised death and destruction in the privacy of our living rooms.

Our fearless leader stood atop a pile of rubble of the WTC and vowed revenge and Americans cheered. Our leader pumped his fist and said "Feels good," when asked how he felt when he unleashed "shock and awe" on the Iraqi people. And the vast majority of American supported the war in Iraq because they wanted revenge against a nation that had nothing to do with 9-11. Yes, we are so much more "civilized" in our hate.

Yes, "they're not like us" at all. Yes, we do not call for the death of a nation. We just destroy it in the name of "freedom".

and what the people demonstrate for are two entirely different things. Americans do not in general call for the extermination of a people.

Americans supported the Iraq war knowing full well that innocent civilians would die. The coverage of the carnage made for great ratings for the news networks. It was acceptable to show people writing messages on bombs that were dropped on Iraqi civilians with hateful messages that stated that the bomb was revenge for 9-11. The amount of cheer leading for the war was repulsive, and the way that Americans have supported things like torture and the ongoing carnage is not the mark of a morally superior people. The country has turned against the Iraq War because of the death toll of AMERICANS and the cost to AMERICANS.

Sorry, but I just can't buy into the cultural superiority bias.

We don't march on the streets but I heard plenty of "glass the middle east" "bomb them back to the stone age" type comments on the streets, in the subway, on the radio, on the television, in the papers, etc. Of course it mostly came from Republicans, but still.

Gimme a break.

Plenty of Americans not only called for the death of a nation but the death of many nations, even nations that had nothing to do with the attacks. Don't give me that horseshit.