O.K. I'm Tired Of This, So Listen Up DUers

The tactics of Olmert & the Israeli Right Wing does not mean all Israelis are bloodthirsty thugs - any more than Americans who were at first fooled by Bush & the American Right Wing on Iraq.

Disgust with one side's indiscriminate tactics do not and should not preclude disgust with the other side's indiscriminate tactics.

Opposing Israeli policy does not make one an anti-Semite.

Trying to explain Israel's policies does not make you a pro-Israeli dupe.

Those who are anti-Semites or pro-Israeli dupes should be ignored - they will only drag us down into the gutter with them.

Use of the word 'Nazi' only shows that you have run out of cogent arguments.

Placing weapons among civilian populations is despicable - but it does not grant anyone license to bomb without due regard of civilian casualties.

The war crimes of one side do not collate with the war crimes of the other side - this is not a game where the last player holding a "war crimes card" is the loser. People are dying - Jew, Christian, Muslim, (Shiite or Sunni) and Druze. We are all losers in this!

So long as we lose focus - forcing our politicians to work out an end to the killing as rapidly as possible and without deal-killing preconditions, only the warmongers on both sides win.

At this time, we, as (hopefully) moral people, should have only one concern - the lives, each one unique & irreplaceable, being lost on all sides.

So flame away. At me. And leave each other alone.

So I will shut up. Seriously, thanks for the reminder. No flames from me.

We are all losers. Excellent.

decade.

They could be intentional, or just the product of simplistic thinking, or the lack of language skills to characterize reality otherwise.

It is the force of strongly held ideological beliefs at work. You can not change those easily in people - if you can change them at all.

People have to ask themselves which side in this never ending conflict has repeatedly pledged to never let up until the last Israeli has been killed or pushed into the sea - and which side has tried for almost 60 years now to get the opposite side to change their mind and live in peace with Israel.

Which side is ruled by strongmen who get money from wealthy Saudi sheiks according to the number of Israeli kills they can claim - whether civilians or military?

Until that cultural ideology and financial structure is changed there will be no peace in the ME. When we in America express support for Hizbollah as many in this forum do - the prospects for peace are pushed back and the certainty of war and civilian deaths for the foreseeable future is guaranteed.

All the talk about who shot the first missiles and how Israel retaliates means nothing. Those who want peace must oppose those who refuse to negotiate peace and who attack their neighbors across state borders - no matter who does it. Going back to past wars and atrocities is rank justification for one's ideology. It makes one just another warmonger.

Peace requires a principled stand against aggression - from this moment forward. Anyone who cares to look objectively can see who the agressors are along the northern border of Lebanon and who deserves the world's condemnation or support.

Please don't let your hatred of the neocons make you ideologically blind in the other direction.

I support Palestinians and Jews who want Peace.

That said, it is understandable how people on both sides can get deluded into radicalism, especially when there are no valid alternatives, so there needs to be a way to separate those who are deluded, and Would change their approach if they could, from those on both sides who are genocidal. That won't happen if we support Israel unconditionally.

However, I really have trouble seeing how, when Israel is attacked with missiles being fired from residential areas, we can call them war-mongers and fascists as some here have called them - for doing what they feel is necessary to stop those attacks.

I am trying to be fair. After 9/11 virtually all Americans agreed that we were justified in invading Afghanistan and going after the Taliban and al-Queda. Even almost everyone here at DU.

Many innocent Afghani civilians died in that effort. I have seen no credible evidence that Israel is trying to kill civilians. They have sent in their ground troops who have suffered several casualties. They could have just saturated those towns with bombs indiscriminately and leveled them and probably saved their soldiers lives.

For sixty years we have seen the same thing. Israel pulls back and trades land for peace - Arab nationalists and Islamists send in the suicide bombers. The Islamists' purpose is to use terror against Israeli civilans to radicalize both sides.

At some point the world has to stop giving the aggressors the benefit of doubt and hoping that they will see the light and desire peace instead of death to Israel. At some point the world has to do what is necessary to stop them. The sooner that is done - the sooner there will be peace in the ME - IMHO.

When I see people here condemning Israel I see the Islamists winning approvel from at least some in the US. That must encourage them to continue their strategy of attacking Israeli civilians. I think we should give the defender (Israel) the benefit of the doubt until evidence comes out. I predict that we'll find that Israel did not intentionally target civilans. Common sense tells me they have much to lose from doing that and absolutely nothing to gain.

Thanks for your comments. I wish I could see a more peaceful way to get to where we both know the ME needs to go.

Shalom

but I rather think that we are on the same page.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=1768949&mesg_id=1768949

I grieve the promise of peace that was tossed away when Bushco took office - and lay out where I throw my anger - and why.

While in that plea I hope for a long term peaceful resolution to the ME ... I agree here with you per the immediacy and urgency with which action is needed to halt the current aggressive actions and the resultant deaths of civilians - on all sides. An unfolding, horrific human tragedy that needs to end.

The Deacon!!

The only solution is to realize our COMMON GROUND.

We must unite as HUMAN BEINGS against this DECEPTION that is causing us to FIGHT EACH OTHER.

We have been CONNED into the CLASH OF CIVILIZATIONS.

We must EDUCATE everyone what is REALLY GOING ON.

These WAR CRIMES are being ORCHESTRATED from DC, London, and Tel Aviv.

We must DEMAND PEACE NOW and TAKE TO THE STREETS.

The NUCLEAR ATTACK on IRAN has ALREADY BEEN PLANNED.

The TIME IS SHORT.

You are one of the only people I have seen call for balance! Good for you!!!

and been equally as critical of each side in this situation. Unfortunately, those posts aften get lost in the heat of the moment and are simply ignored. I'm glad to see The Deacon's post in the spotlight for a change.

As upset as some of us have been this morning about the Israeli bombing in Lebanon, THIS how the world feels about us MOST OF THE TIME.

If anything, this episode could draw us closer to the people of Israel.

Israel still needs to learn when it's gone too far. But we're certainly in no position to tell them that.

This is what happens when an alcoholic with a cocaine habit becomes President. It's hard to survive on the international stage with a "Do as I say, not as I do" attitude.

by the Con media.

I'm talking about the **people** of Israel who are today watching in horror and shame at what their government is doing, much as we watch in horror and shame at what our government does.

Comprendez?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1769312

I just wonder what percentage of people in Israel truly are shamed and horrified.

because the Cons own our media depots. The link I gave you was to the Israeli peace movement.

And I swear, unless we dig, we'll never know they even exist.

:hi:

helped me remember (slaps forehead) that sanity can break out anywhere. Here, there, anywhere.

:)

also, an excellent thread referenced in the post above. A light needs to be shined on all aspects of peace movements in Israel. Unlike the US, these are people directly affected by the violence, and threatened violence, in the Middle East.

on our own, we'll never know how many people in Israel are committed to social justice and to peace.

Peace...

I would like to point out, however, that us "moral" people are completely irrelevant nowadays, as our president blithely takes us from one war to another. The last moral person in the Bush Administration resigned about eighteen months ago.

That irrelevance just might be contributing to a bit of the anger and rage displayed in some posts.

What we should do is organize and march and take our voices out onto the streets.

Our powerful opponents are freakin' THRILLED that we're in here complaining about their tactics. Sitting alone, at our computers, complaining. While the wars just keep raging.

a boatload of immoral world leaders and politicians.

You've restored my faith in all of us. And I'd like to thank oberliner for reminding me lately why I ever cared about a bunch of people I've never met in a place I've never been - the Middle East.

:)

Train yourself to be more patient. You're going to need it for election season.

Btw, I do agree with your assertions. But your patience or lack of? :rofl:

Right on!

I guess I should have used bold type.

sinks and another's becomes a favorite. It is a bit of a lucky draw.

folks caught up in the frenzy of it all don't wannna hear words of balance...

Never mind that. And welcome to DU.

:hi:

I keep saying this. It is sad how many don't want to listen but I guess that is why there is war in the first place!

Thank you for posting this.

I will add this quote from Salam Al-Marayati, Executive Director of the Muslim Public Affairs Council:

"No matter the differences in viewpoints on the Middle East crisis, we are all Americans, and disagreements should never go beyond the level of civil discourse we as a nation pride ourselves in."

source: http://theamericanmuslim.org/tam.php/features/articles/mpac_unequivocally_condemns_seattle_murder/009992

Fooled?? You are kidding right? Anyone who believed that shit is an absolute 'tard!

That said, Israel has been a lost cause ever since the right wing killed off Rabin, and the population let them get away with it by giving them power.

I really wish the US would just forget about the rest off the planet for now, 'cause it costs too much in terms of lives and money!

"I just wonder what percentage of people in Israel truly are shamed and horrified. "

95% of israelis support his war.

Maybe the viewpoint is different when bombs are falling outside your home rather than when you are comfortabley sitting behind a computer in America.

Or is it Afganistan. I ask because there has been so much shit people say they were fooled about. Joe Wilson told us all.over a year ago, that Dick Cheny exposed his wife's identity. Mr. Fitzgerald has been investigating this ever since. Dick Cheny is going about making a killing still.

That's not too funny.

love the country and its people, hate the government and it policies and tactics . . .

I mean we're way past the dark ages of uninformed, uncivilized, colonial craziness. We have the internets. Occupying others countries is not acceptable. And people are trying to live their lives in a modern, connected world. It just doesn't make sense. Is it the fault of the global moral leader the USA? Is it the fault of modern day barbarians which is what I consider the modern terrorist? I understand this shit in the poor hellholes of the world, but not in the US, pre-war Iraq, Israel, Lebanon, as well as most of Europe and parts of Asia.

Don't people have something better to do like make money, travel, or get laid? I understand why some say it's a battle for modern civilization. There are many that want to return us to the dark past. I think a large part of the problem is that Bushco is of that mindset.

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Herman%20/Manufacturing_Consent.html

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0104810/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manufacturing_Consent

http://www.zmag.org/chomsky/mc/index.cfm (complete transcript)

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8147189059281186175&q=%22Manufacturing+Consent%22 (video stream)

http://chomskytorrents.org/TorrentDetails.php?TorrentID=790 (video download)

I'm not really calling you stupid BTW. It was just a play on words.

Or are you willing to note that it's OK to use it when appropriate? Or are you a grammar Nazi?

:evilgrin:

:yourock:

:applause:

AND I AM WITH YOU 100% ON IGNORING CERTAIN DISRUPTERS.
BHN

Of course they aren't! Any more than all Arabs are terrorist anti-semites.

It never ceases to amaze me that you actually have to tell some people these things! :yoiks:

"Peace, Propaganda, and the Promised Land"
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7828123714384920696&q=Peace%2C+Propaganda%2C+and+the+Promised+Land

"Peace, Propaganda & the Promised Land provides a striking comparison of U.S. and international media coverage of the crisis in the Middle East, zeroing in on how structural distortions in U.S. coverage have reinforced false perceptions of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. This pivotal documentary exposes how the foreign policy interests of American political elites--oil, and a need to have a secure military base in the region, among others--work in combination with Israeli public relations strategies to exercise a powerful influence over how news from the region is reported. Through the voices of scholars, media critics, peace activists, religious figures, and Middle East experts, Peace, Propaganda & the Promised Land carefully analyzes and explains how--through the use of language, framing and context--the Israeli occupation of the West Bank and Gaza remains hidden in the news media, and Israeli colonization of the occupied terrorities appears to be a defensive move rather than an offensive one. The documentary also explores the ways that U.S. journalists, for reasons ranging from intimidation to a lack of thorough investigation, have become complicit in carrying out Israel's PR campaign. At its core, the documentary raises questions about the ethics and role of journalism, and the relationship between media and politics."

This problem is so complex, that some of the foremost experts are still debating it. There is neither an absolute right or an absolute wrong here, in my opinion. You can support or not support Israel's actions, but I really feel sorry for those who can't listen to the other side without engaging in name calling.

Thanks for your level-headed post. Let's hope this is over soon.

not a single civilian hurt.

K&R

You can't hope to be the one to set the terms of the debate.