I am so disappointed...

I cannot believe some of the things I see on DU on a daily basis.

Things like: random attacks on Jewish people are ok, because they deserve it, because Israel defends itself from Hezbollah.

Like: people praising Chavez for standing by Iran and wanting to help "finish off" the US empire.

Like: Hezbollah, a terrorist organization in every sense of the word, is somehow the innocent victim here and more credible than Israel. (re: Qana)

It seems to me that a lot of you have an agenda of ending the war in Iraq and getting Bush out of office, it seems however that it has been subverted into something else.

Just because you dislike Bush, that should not equal supporting Iran and Chavez in their plan to "finish off" the US empire. Like it or not, the US "empire" is the US. Or do you think it would be funny to have people dying in the streets?

To those who say that Jews should expect to be attacked because of the Israel/Hezbollah situation, who make jokes about it, who say it is deserved... would you stand by and say the same thing about mosques being attacked if we went to war with Iran?

And of course, those who proclaim so loudly that Israel is committing war-crimes and targeting civilians. Who have never answered once why Israel would bother targeting the civilians, the only answer given is "They are evil", despite the fact that militarily it makes no sense at all, despite the fact that the only "alternate" theory of events comes from Hezbollah, a known terrorist organization who declares publicly their pride in the fact that civilians die instead of them, who declare their goal as the extermination of the Jewish people.. it is insane.

I am sure your blind, fanatical devotion to what you perceive as "the right thing to do" will induce many flames against me, I could really care less. You have already made up your minds that Chavez/Iran/Hezbollah/Syria are all just trying to make the world safe from the evil AIPAC/PNAC/neocon agenda, and that even though in truth they stand against everything you actually believe in (or should believe in if you truly believe in democracy and freedom) you would sooner defend them and ally yourselves with them, rather than have any common cause at all with your perceived enemies.

For those of you who are actually reasonable people out there, hopefully you have already come to the conclusion that the world is not just black and white, there are many shades of grey in between. Just because Bush is on the side of Israel defending itself, does not mean that supporting Israel is in and of itself a bad thing, nor does it mean you should automatically support Hezbollah. Just because you happen to like Chavez, does not mean you should automatically support him when he says he supports Iran and wants to wipe out the US.

I hope that these words will be heard by some of you; I hope that for those of you out there who feel conflicted will feel less conflicted now. Read all the facts you can, weigh all the evidence, use critical thinking. Then decide the truth for yourself.

Israel is not defending itself against Hezbollah. It's launching an offensive attack on another nation.

That's all you can say. Over and over and over. Hezbollah has fired rockets into Israel for over 15 years. Somehow though, Israel is expected to just sit and take it. Why? No other nation on Earth would sit back and just let rockets go flying into their country.

that's what I want to know.

Because they're losing. They can't beat Hezbollah and they know it.

They are being irrational.

And how exactly are they losing?

At last check Nasrallah was cowering in either the Iranian embassy in Beirut or had jumped the border entirely to Syria.

from Hezbollah, have been repulsed from Bint Jbeil, have utterly failed to put a dent into Hezbollah's rocket attacks and have increased the standing ot Hezbollah in the arab world a thousand fold. At best they have inflicted casualties at a rate of 2:1 or 3:1 on Hezbollah. And a 1:1 rate is not impossible at this point. Compare that to the casualty rate America inflicted on the Viet Cong: -> 10:1. And yet we still lost that war.

Israel lost before it invaded.

That is the nature of fourth generation warfare with a nonstate entity. Come back when you understand it.

you SHOULD be more worried about THAT

By your logic - attacks on civilians being A-OK in the name of "defence" - every Palestinian suicide bomber is entirely justified...

I think you MISSED THE POINT of the OP.

What arose from the "accidents" of that campaign is Hezbolla.

If you repeat the same actions and expect diff results... your either insane or your not correctly expressing your intentions.

Which do you think is the real deal... insanity or false representation?

Was their mistake defending themselves?

Were their accidents having Hezbollah hiding among civilian populations while shooting rockets into their cities?

Obviously you will need to check your talking points and get back with an actual answer.

The last week or so.

btw... which "talking point" do you refer... besides your own hastily rehashed msm drivel.

Do you have anything to say that doesn't consist of accusing me of ignorance of the situation?

I've given you my perspective... without talking points... and yes, I've implied your ignorant inre: Lebanon. Now, pls show how your not.

It's the "I've watched the news religiously for a whole 2 weeks and now I'm informed!" game.

insult me and ignore my questions while attempting to discredit me game.

I just noticed that you haven't posted much, what spurred the activity?

Apparently you don't even remember your own posts.

You brought out the "talking points" salvo.

I do remember saying it. I never said you were using talking points, I implied that you would need to go look at talking points in order to attempt to form a credible answer, which give the posts you are making, could only improve the quality. So far all you have done is dodged around the issue with flame-baiting, insults, and innuendo. If you can actually formulate a credible response, I will reply to it, however any other posts that consist of this schoolyard crap I will just ignore.

Good day to you.

btw... The army is gearing up for war!

Next stop Iran.

Let me guess, you think they should turn the whole place into a glass parking lot as well...

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It's not as simple as you'd like to imply. This is NOT simple self defense. These ARE war crimes. This "over reaction" IS why Hezbolla has support.

http://www.tompaine.com/articles/2006/07/31/proisrael_and_prolebanon.php

Pro-Israel And Pro-Lebanon

As Israel loses more soldiers in actions that increasingly resemble the catastrophic 1982 invasion of Lebanon, the question for Jews in Israel, America and the rest of the world becomes not just whether Israeli actions are morally justified, but whether or not they are strategically sound. The answer to both is no.

(snip)

What's up B?

If you punch me in the mouth, and I punch you in the mouth in retuen, thatwould be considered me defending myself.. if, on the other hand, I killed you,burned your house down, slaughtred your entire family and anyone who reminded me of you, it would be safe to say most reasonable people would consider that going a little beyond "defending myself".

The metaphor is: If I shoot thousands of missiles at you over the course of many years, would you be justified in conducting air-strikes against me. The answer should be an obvious yes, but I know you are one of the people who has decided no matter what that Israel is evil because George Bush supports them.

"....but I know you are one of the people who has decided no matter what that Israel is evil because George Bush supports them."

considering the above post was my first regarding this subject, what the fuck makes you think you know the first thing about me and my motivations? *edited out inflammatory and uncalled for insults..*

You attacked my user name!!1 Wow you have a real case to make there I guess!

So tell me with your amazing ability to insult my intelligence, can you deduct something for me?

If the name of a BUSH song is "Everything's Zen" and MY name is "everythingsxen" (or Everything's Xen, if you prefer) are they the same thing? Let me think real hard about this... oh wait, I know, one of them has a Z and one has an X. Wow! Could it be that my name has absolutely nothing to do with the Bush song? Could it be that I named myself this because at the time I joined DU I was playing the hell out of Half-Life? Could it possibly be that the name of the alien home-world in Half-Life is in fact called Xen? Could it further be that I was going for a play on words? Like that everything is in fact a topsy-turvy alien world?

Maybe you should stop snorting your user name and wake the fuck up?

To be fair, I should not have said "....but I know you are one of the people who has decided no matter what that Israel is evil because George Bush supports them."; I have no proof of that and I apologize.

However I have seen that exact same analogy used at least a hundred times and it does not hold water. There is a huge world of difference between a punch and thousands of rockets.

well, no shit.. thre's also a world of difference between


"I killed you,burned your house down, slaughtred your entire family and anyone who reminded me of you,"

and levelling vast stretches of a densely inhabited city with incendiary bombs and white phosphorus... it's what makes the analogy work, ya see?

"...with incendiary bombs and white phosphorus" except that:

You can't prove that. You are taking Hezbollah's solemn word on it.

and

Hezbollah is hiding among civilians and given the low casualty numbers, I think Israel is being pretty restrained.

Using your fist fight analogy, it would be closer to say that Hez punched Israel, then Israel took a swing at Hez, only Hez pushed his wife in front of the punch.

If you want me to take your analogy to the furthest level, Israel's retaliation should have been a full nuclear assault on Lebanon, Syria and Iran.

You are using hyperbole and sensationalism to try and "win" for your point of view. Your POV is that Lebanese civilians dying is bad and I agree. However with the distortions you and others who are so opposed to Israel throw into arguments, it gets more and more out of control and well.. bad things happen.

Diplomatic isolation.
Constant rhetoric... with no real dialog.
Insisting that the militias disarm when your trumpeting about how evil they are.
In short... forcing their hand.

This is nothing short of insanity... unless they aren't being honest inre: intentions.

btw... what's the easiest way to get the US into Iran? (Hint: think recent history... last 2 weeks)

the hate Israel first crowd won't like it!

didn't Hezbollah blow up our Marine barracks in, what, 1982?:dunce:

Didn't Isreal lie about shells being fired before the 1982 fiasco. There weren't any shells being lobbed for many moons prior.

And didn't public support for that "incursion" flounder absolutely after our marines were killed.

Much rhetoric so long as our boys aren't dying... RIGHT?

I was responding the OP

didn't use the sarcasm symbol because I thought my post was self evident

I am a little curious as to how you think Iran or Chavez could finish off the U.S., though.

Let me ask you a question. Do you consider yourself a christian who believes the Jews are God's chosen people?

You would have to ask Chavez how he expects to "finish off the US".

As for your question, I am a deist.

Granted Hezbollah is not something I would want to support either, but I am somewhat confused as to how you could look at the number and ages of Lebanese who are being "helped off this mortal coil" and see them as any less valuable the the Israelis who are also dying. Oddly enough you seem to have no problem with watching Lebanese civilians die.

Me, I don't want anyone to die. Weird, huh?

:sarcasm:

Fact, not sarcasm.

Direct quote:



If you didn't mean that Deists shouldn't worry about Israel, please inform me of what you actually meant.

Tucker

when I can wait and spring it on someone else.

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on the other hand, I don't want Israel to have to endure attacks anymore from a xenophobic organization whose stated goal is the murder of Jews.

Of course, the fact that Hezbollah is setting up their missile batteries in dense civilian areas is Israel's fault, right? It's also Israel's fault that Hezbollah has murdered more than their fair share of the Lebanese. I am also sure that Hezbollah has nothing to gain at all by faking/lying/causing the deaths of Lebanese civilians. :sarcasm:

Translations being such spun for propaganda. Chavez talks to Saudi Arabia as well as Iran as part of OPEC. Many countries talk with Iran, it is just highlighted in Chavez's case to paint him as evil. I am less worried about machinations about what Chavez could do than what Bush has done. I doubt much of anything will be heard of Chaves's visit to Belarus or Iran unless in the theme of showing him as anti-American. He is rather, anti-Bush to the bone. He has given oil to the poor in four areas of the U.S. But given the Corporate media it's only matter of time before we'll have to go to war with a "rouge" (oil rich) Venezuela. Chavez knows the Neocon are gunning for his countries resources and he will connect with China, Iran or any other country to form a cooperative protective niche in which to repel Bush. He has a plan and we can only see it through the slanted media we got.

At least in regards to "finishing off the US empire"; however, his proclamation to stand with Iran no matter what and then receiving Iran's highest medal.... well it definitely seems like they have very close ties.

That goofy medal thing -- Just a way of publicizing and cementing the connection of two totally different countries attempting to form a interdependent bond if the shit hits the fan. Chavez could relinquish to fate rather than commit to what he sees he must do to build and protect place his country. But, that's not his style.

Terrorists have beat up Israel off and on for years, with nary a word here about it. Israel kills some innocents and GD is all over it....

Neither. Think of Sharon and the Sabra and Shatila Massacre and what's going on in Lebanon right now if you want to see Israel in the wrong. Wait a while and I'm sure we'll see suicide bombers going off all over the place inside Israel. Again. They'll crack down by destroying Arab palestinian's homes and cutting them off from their orchards and herds. The cycle will continue.

This time around, right now, the real victims are the Lebanese.

But it seems everytime there is a suicide bombing that it comes and goes in a few brief moments here and no one seems to care or condemn much.

When it is Israel doing the killing we seem to hold them to a higher standard. Why is that?

missiles while the other side has a fully armed army complete with nukes.

(addition) And do you really believe we don't take note of things like busses and wedding parties being destroyed by suicide bombers or the utter insanity of wanting your child to die as a suicide bomber?

I repeat both sides are equally guilty.

Israel is wrong in this. the U.S. is wrong in this. Hezbollah is NOT Hamas and you would do well to make a distinction.

Truth hurts sometimes.

Coming to terms with reality is hard to overcome, especially when this concept is an integral part of someone's self identity.

Well that's great news! I guess the people hiding in bomb shelters can just come out!

Well that's great news! I guess the people who don't have fucking bomb shelters can just come out!

what is your position on what happened on June 24th?

stop shooting rockets at Israel. I had also heard rumors around that weekend that Hamas was prepared to recognize Israel's right to exist. Then that soldier got kidnapped and it all went to shit.

Personally, I think it was either Hezbollah agents or Iranian agents who did it, just to put Hamas in a position of being forced back into war with Israel. I have nothing to back that up and it is just my opinion.

if you recall that was the day BEFORE the first soldier was kidnapped

I guess there are a few rational thinkers still here. In the last couple weeks I've become pretty bitter towards many of the posters here. Absolutely vile things are posted here and I feel I'm one of the few who refuse to passively agree.

Hugo Chavez is "bear hugging" a notorious anti-semite holocaust denier, proclaiming they must end the American Empire (which pretty much means the American way of life imo), and 75% of the posters defend it. It blows my mind. I've got to believe that these people represent the extreme left 1% of the Democratic Party. If I didn't believe that, I'd stop voting all together.

I think part of the problem is that people feel they can espouse their extreme viewpoints here safely while they would keep their trap shut in more public forums (for good reason imo.) People become emboldened when they are behind an anonymous screen name and shout the looniest things they can think of without consequence. Hopefully they keep their mouths shut around October when swing voters are deciding who to support.

How is Chavez going to end the American Empire? For that matter, how is the nut in Iran or Kim Jung Il or Qadaffi or Castro or any of the small countries who would probably like to but have no realistic opportunity to do so, going to end the American Empire? For that matter, given the fact that he is extremely unlikely to be able to follow through on any bad thoughts which he may or may not have, why would I care who Chavez is "bear hugging"?

with support for Chavez which is linked to support for Iran. So those of us who are against this war are nut-cases that want to destroy America... why do we hate America?

When he declared solidarity with Iran in all things. Also saying something about:

Chavez spoke at a ceremony in Tehran at which he was given a medal of honor by President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. The Venezuelan president also urged the world to stop Israel's "fascist" and "terrorist" acts and its "craziness" in attacking Lebanon, Mehr quoted Chavez as saying.

And if you were Lebanese, wouldn't sitting in your house watching your neighbors and the town die around you qualify as terrorism? Or if you were trying to escape, leaving your home and possessions behind, trying to safely navigate down a road that is being bombed daily... Would that qualify as terrorism for you?

and therefore must die!

All them Arabs should just lay down and die, huh?

Is this what you would rather do?
Meir Kahane must be laughing in his grave.

http://www.gamla.org.il/english/article/2002/july/b1.htm

sure looks like the IDF has called in the fighting keyboard brigades.

Hezbollah has called up it's supporters too.

Are you implying that I support hezbollah because you better fucking take that back.

Blind and ignorant support of "collateral damage" is a tough road to how... welcome to ignore.

How else will I get to hear your insightful posts! :sarcasm:

GOOOOOOOOOO HUGOOOOOOOOO!!!!! MY HERO!

If you think being against innocents being slaughtered, a sovereign nation illegally invading another sovereign nation, and people spewing the Big Bad Chavez lies is extreme... yeah, you're on the wrong board.

I don't give a damn if you're "bitter." All these saber rattlers and war crime apologists make me sick.

What a good little cyber soldier. Aren't you a big brave fellow.

And... keep our mouths shut around October? Who teh HELL do you think you're talking to??? You are truly not foooling anyone one here.... trying to silence good Liberals and Progressives. What a nasty little trick.

If we are extremists then I'm proud of being one. Just like those 10% extremists who opposed the Iraq war when it first started.

Every single Dem in congress save five or so have come out in support of Israel's military action. The vast majority of the American people have shown support for Israel's military action in recent polls.

My point is valid. Yes, that means that the anti-Israeli comments on this board is most DEFINITELY an "extreme viewpoint", outside of both the Democratic and American mainstream opinion.

On another note, I'm no rabid hater of Chavez. I think what he's doing for the poor in Venezuela is wonderful. However, when people defend an indefensible action, like becoming allies with a insane Holocaust denying nuke craving asshole, not to mention his new found buddy in Belarus, I feel the need to disagree instead of brainlessly typing "Go Hugo" just because select parts of his political ideology may line up with mine.


The "keep your mouths shut" comment? Anecdote: I was at a Kerry rally in September of '04 at the Allentown fairgrounds. Volunteers (I think from Move on) were signing young people like myself up to vote. While I'm filling out the forms the volunteer begins telling me how there is some Republican conspiracy to keep absentee ballots out of the hands of young people and minorities. To a swing voter, unsubstantiated conspiracy claims like that can be very damaging to the party. Do you think MIHOP theories help us? Do you think claims that Karl Rove runs the world help us? Aligning ourselves with a man who is forming a coalition of douchebags to combat US influence and interests abroad? The goal here is to win elections in November. Toe the Democratic line. Get the word out on better health care, better schools, better jobs, things Democrats stand for. If one voter goes to the dark side because his loony Democrat buddy thinks Cheney blew up the WTC....then he should have kept his trap shut.

BTW: "All these saber rattlers and war crime apologists make me sick." You know what really makes me sick? How nobody gives a fuck that about 100 people were killed in the last couple days in Iraq by Sunni/Shiite terrorists. Why? Because the terrorists aren't friends of Bush. They don't get 1% of the anger here directed toward our allies in Israel. Oh wait, I forgot. The US and all its allies are pure evil.

;)

Of course, the other 190+ countries in the world are obviously motivated by anti-Semitism, especially countries with long histories of anti-Semitism, like Japan.

The American public favors an immediate cease-fire, yet, as you noted, for some odd reason our leaders don't, with only one Senator reflecting public opinion on this. Weird, isn't it?

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We are extremists because we think the killing on both sides should cease. Well you can call me an extremist any time you would like. Hope you enjoy being part of the middle of the road, war is hell but somebody has to die gang.

the fact remains that the American way of life must end. If you've read the number of environmental threads here these past few days, you'd know that. Those of us on the outside of American consumerism and carmania see how the American people refuse to do anything about the danger, and in fact, actively works agains any attempts to save this planet, and we cheer for anyone who stands up to you, no matter how bad their records are. Doesn't mean that we don't criticize them, too, of course, but in the past 6 years most of us have been driven to the point that anyone attempting to thwart American domination is cheered on. It's not a position most of us feel comfortable in, but extremism breeds extremism, and we've for sure tried reasonable methods, and have been steamrollered by the Bush administration.

:bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce:

Wars of Agression are a Supreme International Crime.

This war was pre-planned...and provoked
As was Afghanistan...
As was Iraq...

As Is Syria...
As is Iran...
As is Venezuela...

Read the PNAC docs...this has all been planned for years.
It's all spelled out.

Israel defending itself from Hezbollah has nothing to do with PNAC. People here on DU only make the connection because it fits their agenda of blind hatred for the Bush administration.

Oh wait, you're serious.

Bwaaaahhhhh

Thanks for trying to tell me what to think, that's so fucking kind of you.

Be gone, apologist!

Can't we play nice in this rush to empire!

Celebrated Baruch Goldstein's birthday lately?

Mostly Israeli soldiers illegally entering Lebanon? Israel has slaughtered 600 innocent people. That have been counted, untold numbers buried under the rubble of their homes. I think it is pretty obvious who the so called terrorists are. You must have taken a left when you meant to take a right?

Those evil progressive Dems and their hate for Bush, Cheney, PNAC, etc.! :mad:

Again... I must ask... are you joking???

justify the barbarism! War solves nothing. War creates more hate. How about trying diplomacy? How about trying peace? How about compromise? How about answering some of the arabs complaints regarding settling on their land? Other peoples also have a right to exist and defend themselves. Militarily, Israel is fighting without conscience, against innocent Lebanese. What did the Lebanese do to Israel? Hezbollah answered Israels call in the last conflict. Israel created Hezbollah, the country of Lebanon did not.

No one here has painted Hezbollah as an innocent victim; please link a post if you have found otherwise. You seem to not realize that there are more than two entities in this war. The entity that has no voice or power in this conflict is the one that is being massacred: the Lebanese Civilians... they are the innocent victim. And there is no logical argument against the fact that Israel destroyed a civilian building and then apologized about it. Are you suggesting that Hezbollah lied about the situation and yet Israel "gave in" to their lies and apologized to the world for it?

representative of the American public (on a whole). I would say that the American people are actually (overall) a little to the right of center (when was the last time a true liberal was elected president of the US, for instance). DU is well to the left--at least that is the impression I get. It isn't bad because at least people on DU think while many people in our country don't care enough about issues to even vote or to think them through in a rational way.

to make them sit up and notice until something affects them personally then and only then will people conduct themselves as business as usual, with no concern of the issues that are confronting us all.

Like wake the f up Americans.

9-11 happened and the public quickly bought the Ministry of Truth's "they hate us for our freedom" message. It seems nothing can defeat the grip of the corporate, pro-government line media.

How telling is it that five years after 9-11 the public still doesn't realize what effect Qana and the Israeli campaign have on AMERICAN national security and interests? :scared: If they did, perhaps more than one Senator would stand up and call for a cease-fire.

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1. We flame each other; me first, admittedly;
2. A few days later you stalk me onto another, unrelated, thread and attack me there;
3. I send you a courteous PM asking you why you did this; if I remember correctly the text ran "I don't understand your responses on this thread, if I've done anything to offend you I apologise"
4. You send me a very nasty PM explaining about our previous exchange of flames and saying don't contact me again;
5. I send a one line response saying "That explains it. I advise against glass houses"
6. I ignore you (it's a function where you can blank out contributions from DUers you don't like, try it some time)
7. You decide to stalk me across half a dozen unrelated threads
8. I alert the mods and ignore you again.

Grudges shorten the life. That's why I don't bear them.

1. We flame each other; me first, admittedly;
2. A few days later you stalk me onto another, unrelated, thread and attack me there;
3. I send you a courteous PM asking you why you did this; if I remember correctly the text ran "I don't understand your responses on this thread, if I've done anything to offend you I apologise"
4. You send me a very nasty PM explaining about our previous exchange of flames and saying don't contact me again;
5. I send a one line response saying "That explains it. I advise against glass houses"
6. I ignore you (it's a function where you can blank out contributions from DUers you don't like, try it some time)
7. You decide to stalk me across half a dozen unrelated threads
8. I alert the mods and ignore you again.

Grudges shorten the life. That's why I don't bear them.

After all, there is no such thing as an unproportional attack from Israel, right?

THINK.

You obviously read the part of my post involving thinking for yourself! You are a champion!

:sarcasm:

:hi:

i am not going to flame nor do i disagree with much of what you wrote ...

but on the issue of US empire, you screwed up really badly ...

let's start with this: the corrupt, imperialistic US government is not "the US" ... the neocon cabal is a corruption of our American heritage and the values on which the country was founded ... and imperialism, this is the oppression and exploitation of other countries and other peoples, has been the hallmark of American foreign policy for more than 100 years ...

i love the ideals on which the US was founded ... our democracy is totally corrupt ... it has been sold to the highest bidders who dictate both foreign and domestic policy ... our government does not serve the best interests of the American people ... don't, for a minute, however, conflate a corrupt government with the highest ideals of the country ...

i hope that the "great American empire" collapses ... yes, most of us will suffer very badly when it does ... WE HAVE NO RIGHT TO AN EMPIRE !!!!!

we need to get to a point where our military might and our economic might is used cooperatively with other nations of the world ... doing what we've been doing, we cause global suffering and we will bring about our own tragic demise ... it's time to chart a new course based on global cooperation rather than global domination ... and it's time to recognize that the corrupt imperialists who serve only the interests of a very narrow few of us are not the US; they are the puppetmasters who need to be purged from all our democratic institutions ...

Well Said.
Wish I could nominate a single post.

As for the OP.....simplistic, partisan, and mistaken.

Our Government is corrupt, and we are an empire.

However, the problem is that in order to end that empire we need to withdraw ourselves, as an internal decision, not have it forced on us by outsiders. If Iran/Venezuela/everyone else all decide to unite against us to "end the US empire", what exactly will that mean for the US? Aside from the crippling unemployment rate, the fact that we cannot produce enough food to feed our people and just a general total destruction of our society....

Also, Iran uses a lot of rhetoric regarding the US, so who is to say that Chavez does not in fact mean a military solution?

I'm sorry but if my choices are a) we have an empire or b) thousands of US citizens die, I will take option b.

Yes we do need to end our imperialistic ways, but if that choice is forced upon us, the consequences will be dire, both to the people of the US and to the people of the world.

The vile, hateful things (not to mention inaccurate, hypersensitive, vitriolic SHIT in general) I have read on DU in the last week and a half have turned my stomach. I've never availed myself to the "ignore" feature as I have these last couple of weeks.

Thanks for airing some common sense! It is indeed refreshing, and makes me beleive that DU has not totally turned into a freakish caricature of what it was intended to be.

The vile hateful things are just about more than I can take. But it's not the anti Israeli government posts, it's the I will support Israel no matter what they do posts that literally make my stomach turn. The killing of civilians, whether they be from Israel or Lebanon is repugnant to me. If the tables were turned and it was Israel that was getting the bejeesus bombed out of them then the tables would be turned. But this is not what is happening. We have bombardment of a nation who cannot defend itself. And the cavalier attitude about this carnage by some of the posters is really hard to take.

...or agents provocateur. Ignore them.

This is probably going to be deleted 'cause I said that, though.

My position on the issues: Israel has a right to defend itself, but the Israelis chose a bad strategic plan. They should have used covert ops to take out Hezbollah leaders and Katyusha launch sites, not aerial bombardment.

And Chavez is fucking nuts.

But I agree exactly with your comments... :shrug:

"People who say stuff like: Hezbollah, a terrorist organization in every sense of the word, is somehow the innocent victim here and more credible than Israel. (re: Qana)"

I haven't seen your posts, so I can't comment on you specifically. Perhaps I overgeneralized.

The innocent victims are the Lebanese civlians.

They need little help from Chavez, Hezbullah, Hamas, Iran, or any of the other countries catching on that America is flailing around aimlessly in a vain attempt to hold the empire together.

Israel is only adding to bloodletting by attacking a potential arbiter in the never-ending Middle-East conflict that it has helped perpetuate.

Empires have risen and fallen throughout history. Usually, they find themselves over-extended and weakened by the many wars they indulge in to first make an empire and then the useless wars trying vainly to hold on to it.

America has followed that path and is now in the downward spiral of it's venture of empire.

Hopefully, it will decline gradually, exhibit a little wisdom, avoid tearing itself apart in the process, without doing too much damage to the world. However, given it's bloody history, I hold small hope for that outcome.

Maybe a little long winded, but you covered ,most of the bases... you just need to add "antisemitic" in a time or two.

Good job! I'll sure the cyber soldier recruiter will be calling any minute!

(I do think, however, that you need to invest in a grey crayon... most of us on here already have ours...)

As has been said repeatedly, also here at DU:

Disagreement with Israel's actions against another nation is not the same thing as support for any other group's action against Israel.

I have no argument with any who speak out against the U.S. Empire. The U.S. is an empire, and as such deserves the criticism. Wishing to see the end of empire is not the same thing as wishing the destruction of a nation or a people; just the end of reaching beyond our own borders to control the rest of the world.

The real world is not divided into "good guys" and "bad guys," "black and white," or "them and us." Political boundaries are artificial. Ethnic, religious, and cultural differences enrich us, if we allow them to. We are ALL "us." We all have positive qualities to nurture and negative faults to repair.

Face it, Venezuela and Iran are on the US hit-list. So they understandably criticize US imperialism which the OP has misinterpreted as wanting to destroy us.

"ALL MUSLIMS ARE TERRORISTS"

'While it is politically incorrect to say that all Muslims are terrorists, unfortunately, it’s true that all terrorists are Muslim,' Gillerman said on O’Reilly’s show yesterday, July 16.

IMHO, Disregarding that Terrorism is a tactic not simply a specific group of people. I guess I should be shot... for not further fact checking.

Gee that is a bit far fetch

Who is being threaten here
US or Iran

Nobody is a threat to US
Only US can be a threat to itself
By its own action it has stir up lots of hate

I see to much post about Iran being evil
But the world do not look at it that way
Only US with it massive machine is scary

Chavez wouldn't feel the need to hang out with Islamists.

I seem to remember a Democratic president, back in oh, 1941, who formed an alliance with the premier Stalinist leader to defeat a mutual enemy.

Maybe we should talk to them, find out why they consider us an enemy?

If, indeed, it is because they 'hate our freedoms', well, then I guess there isn't much else we can do.

The empire is the tiny minority of ubermenschen who want to use military force to make the world safe for dollar-a-day labor. The rest of us poor saps who just live here will benefit from getting rid of it. I want it gone as much as Chavez does. If Chavez wants to harm US citizens, then whythehell is he giving us cheap heating oil?

Democratic Party Platform, July 4, 1900

http://janda.org/politxts/PartyPlatforms/Democratic/dem.900.html




As to why Israel is targeting civilians, the answer is obvious. They are doing ethnic cleansing in South Lebanon, and securing their grip on the water of the Litani River.

http://www.juancole.com/2006/07/what-is-hizbullah-western-and-israeli.html

and Shrubby too. Thank you for the candid yet extremely rational and logical post. I do think Israel could use a bit more judgement and discretion in their attacks, but overall I think the points you made in your OP are very similar to things I've been feeling myself lately. For instance, as soon as Chavez spoke his intentionally provocative rhetoric about partnering with Iran, the big FUCK YOU CHAVEZ flag went off in my head. I'm actually quite a bit amazed myself at some of the rapid defense of him. But without getting overly into the merits or sides of the issues, just based on rationality and objectivity alone I want to give you kudos and a thumbs up on the post. Great job.

:thumbsup:

Tell me how? He is educated and highly intelligent and fending off the likes of BushCo.

He may have ego. He may have a survival instinct for himself and his country. He may even have a slight Messiah thing going on. But as he is working his country up and spreading the wealth of his country's resources he has done a great job of fending off IMF, World Bank and the influence of Big Oil. Not to mention coups probably backed by our own CIA. I think the impression you have of Chavez is one that Bush would want you to hold and may not be quite accurate of his motives.

Some of us don't care

Everybody is disappointed at something.

check out this site!! I am sure you will find lots of folks that support Israel. I am sure they just looove Israel!! :hi: http://raptureready.com/

For illustrating the points I made in my OP.

"Like: Hezbollah, a terrorist organization in every sense of the word, is somehow the innocent victim here and more credible than Israel. (re: Qana)"

Your post disgusts me.

"I am sure your blind, fanatical devotion to what you perceive as "the right thing to do" will induce many flames against me, I could really care less."

Sounds like fucking flame bait to me....

Maybe you were talking about your own blind fanatical devotion to israeli's foreign policy?

Oh by the way, the IDF wasnt TARGETTING THOSE CHILDREN, but WHAT THE FUCK THEY DIED ANYWAYS.

You have 0 proof that Israel is targeting children.

Yet Hezbollah IS targeting children.

Your posts disgusts me pal.

You kneejerk,
"Oh by the way, the IDF wasnt TARGETTING THOSE CHILDREN"

I conceeded that they WERE NOT TARGETTING THEM, but they still died? get the point? oh I guess not..
bye forever now.

Who has killed more kids in this?

Precision guided vs. unguided.

Israels in aggregate 30, Hezbolla in aggregate 1.

What proof do you have that Israel isn't vs. Hezbolla is?

I am total support of Israel here. It is sad innocents die in war, but that blame lies entirely on those who start the war. Hizbullah is responsible for every single innocent man, woman and child that has died in this conflict.

I want Israel to pursue this until Hizbullah is militarily degraded to the point it is no longer a significant threat to Israel.

Some of the comments I've seen on DU during this conflict have been sickening. Thankfully, I am well aware that while a majority on DU apparently don't support Israel in this war against Hizbullah, the vast majority of our elected Democrats absolutely do. I think many, many people are just naive when it comes to what the likes of Hamas, Hizbullah, etc really represent. It took seeing Islamic radicals in action in Asia for me to reach a point where I make absolutely no more excuses for them. Islamists should be opposed everywhere in my view, and when they start a war I will always support those who take the fight to them.

Israel is a Western Democracy, Hizbullah is a terrorist organization. Israel attempts to avoid civilian casualties, Hizbullah attempts to maximize them. Israel deserves our support, Hizbullah deserves our derision.

And as to your comments about Chavez, Iran, Syria, etc. Well, more and more it does sometimes seem that any foe of the United States is considered some sort of hero by many on DU. I hate to say it, but it really does seem that an awful lot of people here automatically side with any enemy of the United States. It is rather disturbing, especially when you consider that if the Democratic Party ever actually became associated with this twisted thinking, we'd be a minority party forever. Unfortunantly, even the likes of Robert Mugabe have supporters here.

All I can say is, don't let it bother you. Internet political forums tend to draw many of the most radical folks. What you read here is not the way a majority of Democrats actually think and vote. For all it's faults, DU is still the best forum on the net. There are, quite simply, many, many fanatastic posters and thinkers here. Even when we may disagree with some of them on this particular issue, it is always worth reading what those we don't agree with have to say. Some of my favorite posters are actually people I rarely if ever agree with.

And yeah, if some of these reactionary types are Democrats, then all I know is I don't want to be like them. Fortunately, I know that they are definately in the minority in the party and the country.

I don't like Bush, but I love America, and I know that Ahmadnejad and Chavez would oppose the US regardless of who was in the White House, because that's just another tool for them to rally their people. I have no use for the likes of them, for they are against *all* of us, no matter whether we like Bush or not.

Dissent is the highest form of patriotism. :-)

And everyone who defends the slaughter of Lebanon.


"Blind, fanatical devotion". That sounds more like the people defending the disproportionate killing of civilians ( I expect that it's worse then the media reports - we don't know of all the deaths) than it does people who actually consider what both sides are doing and don't have a chicken in the fight.

And I think you're the one who's mistaken in this case. That's my learned opinion and, like you, I really don't care if you or anybody else flames me because like you, I know I'm right. No question. Ha.

the only guaranteed result of this strategy is to generate more enemies. Aerial bombardment of nominally neutral civilians is hardly a way to keep the peace in a land where they're surrounded by people they KNOW it'll piss off.

Elite covert ops teams should have been sent in a LONG time ago, blending with the civilian population and striking out of the darkness at Hezbollah's positions when an opening presented itself.

They could have financed a kind of insurgency THEMSELVES. Paid agents and mercs who would act on their behalf and go after Hezbollah directly.

There are a number of tactics that would work far better in the long run than what they're doing.

To me, this says they're either stupid, or they're more interested in the negative repercussions to this tactic than they are solving the problem.

that Israel was fighting this battle smart. I only defend their right to fight it as it is a defensive battle against an extremist group. Personally I wish that the Lebanese Government had just disarmed Hezbollah years ago as they were supposed to.

I agree with you though. There were many ways this battle could have been waged that would have killed less civilians.

I don't know that they are trying to intentionally piss people off though.

They specifically stated that Lebanon did not have the power to disarm Hezbollah (the last incursion by Israel into Lebanon weakened them pretty badly and if you remember, until recently Syria had troops in Lebanon to maintain stability within Lebanon) and the interviewee didn't think that even Syria could disarm Hezbollah at this point.

I guess you missed that...

disarm it, and it is attacking a third nation, that third nation has no right to defend itself?

But then, so do the Palestinians and the Lebanese.
Of course, in your world, Arabs only have the right to die if they don't bow down to Israel.
Bibi and Olmert have already had their own Wansee conference and the plan is laid out here.
http://www.gamla.org.il/english/article/2002/july/b1.htm

The end result will be genocide. But it's only Arabs dying, so what's the big deal?

the only guaranteed result of this strategy is to generate more enemies. Aerial bombardment of nominally neutral civilians is hardly a way to keep the peace in a land where they're surrounded by people they KNOW it'll piss off.

Elite covert ops teams should have been sent in a LONG time ago, blending with the civilian population and striking out of the darkness at Hezbollah's positions when an opening presented itself.

They could have financed a kind of insurgency THEMSELVES. Paid agents and mercs who would act on their behalf and go after Hezbollah directly.

There are a number of tactics that would work far better in the long run than what they're doing.

To me, this says they're either stupid, or they're more interested in the negative repercussions to this tactic than they are solving the problem.

Either of those would have drawn a different criticism from around the world. If covert ops went in, the criticism would be, "Why does Israel violate another nation's sovereignty and why do they think they have the right to assassinate people on foreign soil?" If Israel funded an insurgency, it would be "What gives them the right to interfere with the government of another country?"

Tucker

than carpet bombing civilians, wouldn't you say?

And an insurgency against Hezbollah, which is NOT the legitimate government of Lebanon, is not the same as trying to overthrow the country.

http://www.answers.com/carpet-bombing&r=67

What Israel is doing against Hezbollah is not carpet bombing by any stretch if the imagination. You are simply using inflammatory rhetoric to try and justify your position. Further, you accuse Israel of carpet bombing civilians which clearly they are not doing. If they were it would not a few hundred dead in the almost 20 days this has been going on, it would hundreds dead by the hour.

Most countries in the Middle East hate Israel, and no matter what option they used to deal with Hezbollah, they would have suffered more attacks and more criticism.

And I find it disappointing that you want to MAKE it the point.

The point is that Israel had other options that did not involve the indiscriminate killing of civilians and CHOSE not to use them.

Is that so hard to understand?

I want the US back -- a democratic republic, self-reliant, hopeful, and free. Please, somebody, take this national-security-state (as Gore Vidal calls it) and send it back to the corporate greedheads and extremist ideologues from where it came.

I do not consider the Cheneyites to be "America" defined. Quite the opposite: they are a cancer on the nation. If a country hates a Halliburton for exploiting its resources, I do not think that equates wityh their hating my country, any more than if a Central American country hated United Fruit in the 1950s, it meant they hated my country. That does not, of course, imply that I in any way "support" the government of Iran -- very much the opposite.

So try to see things in context.

Bush tries to finish off Chavez, subsequently Chavez will fight the US empire (but has, however, a warm heart towards the people of the US, especially the poor).
Israel tries to finish off Hezbollah, subsequently they fight back. Hezbollah was created by the invasion in 1982, and it is not an organization of masked terrorists killing civillians only. It goes out from your post that you broad brush these people into the black sack of evil - just the same you're accusing us of doing with Israel. Demonizing. They're not, they're people like you and me, with kids and wife's who - if events had taken another turn over the years - may have chosen differently.

You got to check your facts as well - where did Chavez 'stand side by side with Iran' and threaten to wipe out the US?
I support Iran, I support Israel, I support the US - so who are you to tell me I've got to make a choice between them?

Where do you see, on a daily basis, people say that random attacks on Jews are OK? I've read many debates here, and have found no such people.

Chavez:

"Let's save the human race, let's finish off the U.S. empire," Chavez said. "This (task) must be assumed with strength by the majority of the peoples of the world."

http://www.kltv.com/Global/story.asp?S=5219169&nav=1TjD

In Tehran yesterday, Chavez pledged that his country would "stay by Iran at any time and under any condition."

http://www.hindu.com/thehindu/holnus/003200607300913.htm

(Note: Go google them up for yourself if you want)

Hezbollah:

While some members of Hezbollah may in fact be nice folks who just want to live in peace, they do work for an organization whose stated goal is the murder of Jews and the destruction of the state of Israel. Does being a nice person mean that someone who was a nice guy, but happened to commit genocide in the Bosnian War get a free pass? Sure some of the Hezbollah people probably do have "good" motives, but they work for an organization whose goal is the ethnic cleansing of another group.

Jews being attacked:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=1761634

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=1766564#1766605 (all the really vile stuff has been purged..)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=1758819

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=2424728

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=2420602

Hope that's enough for now, I will keep digging for more if you want.

Chavez:
"Let's save the human race, let's finish off the U.S. empire," Chavez said. "This (task) must be assumed with strength by the majority of the peoples of the world."

So, what did Chavez mean, where did he say it, and does it differ from your own view? Do you support what's being done in Iraq? That is the US empire he's talking about, and the place he's talking about it is in the neighbouring state, Iran. A sovereign nation now seen to meet the same fate as Iraq; being invaded by the US empire based on shady claims and propaganda. Do you advocate the undemocratic US empirialism versus 'This (task) must be assumed with strength by the majority of the peoples of the world'. I don't.

In Tehran yesterday, Chavez pledged that his country would "stay by Iran at any time and under any condition."

I can see the doorbell rang. 'Any condition' would mean a war against Israel, I guess.
But the target are specified in the same article:
"We are with you and with Iran forever. As long as we remain united we will be able to defeat (US) imperialism, but if we are divided they will push us aside," Chavez said."

Chavez has no reason to love the US empire - it tried to topple his democratic government in 2002, and install a puppy dictator.
Take a look at this film:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5832390545689805144&q=the+revolution+will+not+be+televised
And take a look at this Iranian poll from 2000:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1730704

Everything has a reason. Action causes reaction.

Hezbollah:
While some members of Hezbollah may in fact be nice folks who just want to live in peace, they do work for an organization whose stated goal is the murder of Jews and the destruction of the state of Israel. Does being a nice person mean that someone who was a nice guy, but happened to commit genocide in the Bosnian War get a free pass? Sure some of the Hezbollah people probably do have "good" motives, but they work for an organization whose goal is the ethnic cleansing of another group.

Well, so then it is OK to indiscriminately murder them all? Let's turn this around, and ask: What's Israel's motives for doing this war? What goes on internally in Israeli politics that made the current situation necessary?
The shelling of the northern border has been going on for many years from the Hezbollah, and the retaliation bombing from Israel has been just as assured, but now - under pretext of getting two hostages we hear no more about - it has developed into a war. Why now?
Why not mention the elephant in the room; Israels illegal occupation of Palestinian land and reckless treatment of Palestinians for many decades? Or for that matter, the previous brutal invasisons in Lebanon?
Many Palestinians live in camps all over Lebanon, and have been living under harsh conditions for decades:
http://www.un.org/unrwa/refugees/lebanon.html

You can have a look at these links to see why some want to destroy Israel:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=2418425&mesg_id=2419009
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabra_and_Shatila_Massacre
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qana_Massacre

Supporting their right to a voice and their right to a homeland does not mean a support for the destruction of Israel, nor the killing of Israeli civilians. That seems to be the same thing these days, and the broad brushing hampers the voices pointing to the real problem; Israels occupation of Palestine and the Israeli extremists intent to keep it going, and even expand it to a Greater Israel.
I see the violence from both sides as extremism and no party is better than the other.

About your threads from the DU: I see a number of posters taking a stand against anti-semitism, broadening the topic and debating on a public board. Anti-semite postings are deleted at the DU, which is as it should be. But that people take a stand against Israel is just as natural as people taking a stand against Hezbollah - the DU covers a lot of opinions. It's called open debate.

When this war broke out, I took some precautions:
I registred at the Ha'aretz to see what the mainstream was doing, and read a lot of articles about Israeli daily life, to get a 'feel' of the society. I also snoped on Israelis (and Lebanese) on myspace.com, just to get the feeling that there's real people we're talking about, not monsters. OK, I admit I looked at Israeli and Lebanese women only at myspace, but that's how it is ;-)
I then went to the worst places I know of, nazi and other, where real anti-semitism is posted, to see if some of the stories they trade would surface here, and if the lingo used was affecting the debate. Apart from one particular story, they never did (And that story was posted by a DU'er I respect very much, so I didn't comment on it).

I have done this since 911. Back then, I was just finishing a project and spent half a year on Muslim websites all over the world, to determine why they hated us so, and inform myself about the situation. They didn't hate us, that was my distinct impression. And those that did had pretty good reasons. Of course, I don't speak arab or farsi, but there was plenty of info available in English that fleshed out the superficial news picture.
Then when the torture pictures from Abu Ghraib broke, I came over here and started debating on US boards, to see what the hell was going on, and why the Americans had lost their wits. Well, they hadn't and I discovered that most Americans was just as shocked as me.

If you choose to look for extremism, you'll always find it. If you look for decency and truth, you'll find that too. If you look for both, you'll find that truth prevails over lies, and that most people keep their act together.

Peace.

So now when another country doesn't like the outcome of an election, it's ok to call them a known terrorist organization and invade their country..

and our elected representatives reflect that. Israel will not be abandoned, as some wish.

You do a lot of guilt by association

Chavez's link to Iran is primarily because both are OPEC members.

The fact that Iran supports Hezbollah, and Chavez supports Iran, does not mean Chavez supports Hezbollah.

Got a source for the claim that Chavez has said he wants to "finish off" the US?

If you oppose this expansion of bloodshed and injustices, you're for Iran, Hezbollah, North Korea, Islamic terrorism, etc. and against the US, Israel, and all things good. Sheesh, what a joke.

"why Israel would bother targeting the civilians...".

To terrorize them of course. That is one tactic of war you seem unaware of.

:popcorn:

:eyes:

Thank you very much, but I always have and always will continue to weigh both sides of an event, and make up my own mind, inependent of propaganda and biased screeds.

No doubt about it. Waaaay to much of the "Your just Bush haters" style of "logic."

You should always weigh all sides of an issue. I hope you always do so.

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Enjoy your stay.

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They wish to devastate southern Lebanon so that it is practically uninhabited. That way, they'll be able to spot Hizbollah when they try to launch missiles in the future. Israel does not care if some civilians get killed during this (and in fact a few deaths will persuade the rest to flee their homes and livelihoods); but aiming at buildings that may contain civilians, without a military necessity for it, is still a war crime, even if they aren't specifically targetting the civilians. This is logical, even if if is totally cold and immoral. You can call that immorality 'evil' if you want. But it makes sense to someone who doesn't care about the civilian deaths, and is not 'insane'.

I'm also disappointed that a lot of support for Israel in the US seems to me to play into the implicit (and sometimes explicit) dehumanization of Arabs and Muslims collectively.

But I get over it. And I come here, and I discuss, and I say what I believe and argue when I must.

I suggest you get over it, too. Not all DU'ers are going to believe what you believe, or express their politics how you do, but that doesn't make them morally deficient. A lot of people have a problem with Israel's actions, emphasized by the MSM support and our collective tax dollars. And that's legitimate.

Does , in NO way infer that one is opposed to Israel.

blamed it, demanded an immediate cease fire, threatened with sanctions - would DUers put Israel on a pedestal and attacked Hezbollah, instead?

How much of the attacks on Israel - often with no basic knowledge, with visiting only very biased sites - is a result of the hate for Bush?