Israeli intentionally letting Hezbollah kill Israeli civilians

Israeli intentionally letting Hezbollah kill Israeli civilians, per some US military analysts
by John in DC - 8/06/2006 10:26:00 PM

I have no idea if this is true, but Thomas Ricks is the Pentagon reporter for the Wash Post, and this is what he's heard from some US military analysts. I could honestly see Bush approving something like this, but Israel? Anyway, I suspect the Israelis are going to be answering a few questions to their own people tomorrow.



http://americablog.blogspot.com/2006/08/israeli-intentionally-letting.html

Because I do not believe that Israel would just leave some pockets there to let yet more of their people die. This is a batch of nasty lies by anti-Israelis.

completely and utterly...and we also know that Israel was formed because of constant attacks and repression of Jews in Europe.

But we also know that Hezbollah does civilian social services.

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I could see myself giving some credence to the scurrilous rumor but I am not 'anti Israeli.'
I have no beef with the Israeli people any more than I do with the Lebanese people.

The politicians? The hard line warriors on both sides? Those who make decisions around the planet
that destroy simple people who know nothing more than the day to day details of
surviving and raising a family and extracting some joy from it all?

I am not anti Israeli. But those leaders who see only war and
want to show how strong they are with the lives of our sons and
daughters.

I absolutely hate and despise them.

people be killed. They need every person.

they don't need every person, do you really think the country is actually threatened? Do you really think Israel's population is dwindling so? How would that square with the policies of Israel sending settlers to Palestine to live on land that doesn't belong to them?

Surely Bush and company wouldn't let American citizens die so they would have an excuse to start wars, right?

Bush doing it for political gain.

I can believe he would cynically invade a country for political gain but not on US soil. Too big a chance of it not working and starting some real problems.

civilians to be killed? If so, why is it not just possible that this allegation could be true? In the interest of disclosure and to avoid misunderstanding, I'm not taking sides on this and certainly don't have my mind made up. I have no idea and no way of knowing whether this is true or not. But I think there is at least a POSSIBILITY that it is true, just as I think there is a POSSIBILITY that Hezbollah intentionally draws fire on Lebanese civilians in order to gain sympathy.

show up in Christian neighborhoods to fire rockets is because not every person in Lebanon is a member of their organization.

The other reason I think they would is because those that are supporters of Hezbollah are perfectly willing to "sacrafice" themselves for some minor gain. Israel attacks them and they die knowing that the leaders can use them as martyrs.

believe this whole mess started with the "kidnapping" of two SOLDIERS! B.S. This was an excuse.....plain and simple, period. Been in the works and a narrow window opened with the soldiers being captured and voila....we have the war we wanted, to get what we want. Cynical but true, IMHOP.

There are elements in Israel that won't except a Palestinian state and want war so they can kill them all. Also, there are elements in Hezbolla that won't except an Israeli state and want war so they can kill them all. Both of them will go to any lengths to encourage a war.

You have war-mongering zealots on both sides who are unfortunately in positions of power, and all the innocent people have to pay for it.

Their whole belief structure is that you can't tell the public what you are really doing because the public "couldn't accept it".

Olbert is bombing **northern** Lebanon now. Recently he has been bombing the Christian areas of Lebanon, who used to be "pro-Israel".

Look you don't have to let them intentionally there. the smallest of those rockets can be transported so fast it ain't even funny.

Oh and if true... the survival of the Tel Aviv government would be measured in days... if Israelis believe this.

Nobody, not even Hezbollah, would deliberately seek to have their own civilians killed for PR reasons. Right?

Doesn't mean they can't stoop to the same battle plan as Hezbulla....

Beside, military and political considerations are not always on the same page....

And I really wouldn't put anything past either side...

I hate to say it once again, but those who write this bullshit really do NOT understand the situation on the ground

A people whose motto is nobody is left behind... you think they would do this?

Batshit crazy... and no, it is NOT becuase they are Israelis...

That said, the IDF is well behind the power curve when it comes to the propaganda war... that is true

I hate to say this but the idealism spilling over from creation of the state and the glory of a homeland, the Israeli's have become just like every other country...

In times of war and larger than anyone person goals, motto's can and often do mean little...

I'm not saying that I believe this...

But let's just say I don't categorically dismiss such claims anymore....

trust me, I had more important thigns to do at the time, such as learnig how to walk...

It is just that in my studies of Israeli politics, including talks with politicians, this is still political suicide

There are many other things that they will do first... that are part of what going to war is...

Oh and by the way I am not saying that they are a moral state actor, far from it... there is NO moral state actor on the stage, never has been, and never will

What we unequivocally KNOW * and Cabal to have done should have been political suicide at least a dozen times over, and yet they've more or less gotten away with it for coming up on five years now.

We know that Israel is perfectly happy to put it's "settlers" into the firing line in the occupied territories to advance their cause in those disputes, so why should they not use their own people in a similar fashion in this?

Question: In all those craters made by Israeli bombs, has there been any concrete evidence that they have successfully targetted a Hizbullah launch vehicle/platform, ie, identifiable pieces of such?

The evidence to date suggests that Israel has managed to hit just about everything in Lebanon except what they say they were aiming for.

At the very least, the accusation made in the OP is completely plausible. Is it credible? Well, they've done it before and have done for a considerable period of time, so I wouldn't bet anything I'd miss on them not having done it this time too.

Virtually every time Israel "defends" itself, chunks of its sovereign neighbours somehow or other wind up under Israeli control.

If true, it is despicable. Israel's response to this will be very interesting, as much for what is not said as well as what is.

I though Mel Gibson was the one who peddled conspiracy theories.

while ignoring all others. "Conspiracy theory" is a GOP meme. How about "speculation"?

Because unless they have a good reason I'd politely ask them to jump in the nearest lake to cool off.

it may be a more honest reflection of how the US military assesses the strategic value of allowing American casualities than how the IDF perceives the deaths of Israelis.

I believe the name of one operation was "Operation Northwoods"

N E W Y O R K, May 1, 2001 In the early 1960s, America's top military leaders reportedly drafted plans to kill innocent people and commit acts of terrorism in U.S. cities to create public support for a war against Cuba.

Code named Operation Northwoods, the plans reportedly included the possible assassination of Cuban émigrés, sinking boats of Cuban refugees on the high seas, hijacking planes, blowing up a U.S. ship, and even orchestrating violent terrorism in U.S. cities.

The plans were developed as ways to trick the American public and the international community into supporting a war to oust Cuba's then new leader, communist Fidel Castro.


America's top military brass even contemplated causing U.S. military casualties, writing: "We could blow up a U.S. ship in Guantanamo Bay and blame Cuba," and, "casualty lists in U.S. newspapers would cause a helpful wave of national indignation."

more

http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=92662&page=1

Proof positive, imo, that governments are not beyond actions such as described in the OP.

the Prince of Darkness and Rasputin-Rove.

Israel is just another Mid East country.

I seriously don't believe this is even being said - WTF

I guess both sides are purposefully getting their civilians killed for PR purposes then? Same thing was said about the pictures of children being pulled out of the rubble in Lebanon :eyes:

the truth is that Israel haven't been ABLE to take out the Katusjas launchers, because the only way to do it would be to occupy the whole Lebanon. They might have had more success with bigger missiles, but we'll see that if they are launched or not...

so the US military
don't want to see the reality in face... so they have to find "explanations"... The fact that Katusjas rockets in northern Israel falling among Israli Arabs lacking shelters and warning signals is of less concern for the Israeli
is another story...

...someone has implied or outright stated that Hezbollah or the Lebanese government is intentionally putting their civilians into harms way or doing things which would get them killed by the Israeli military. There are even a few "famous" or "infamous" threads I can think of which is disturbing accusation was the main assertion.

  And here is the other side of the coin. Unlike those threads, I should be surprised if this thread is not deleted, locked, or at least anyone who does anything but condemn the possibility in the strongest possible terms is branded a troll, anti-Semite, or any other convenient slur.

  The disparity is interesting to note.

PB

some fruitful discussion, but I don't hold out TOO much hope.

With phased array radar the launchers could be located instantaneously.
If they wanted the rockets to stop, they would of stopped them already.

can be set up. fired and the crew gone in less than 30 seconds, don't you?

Ricks certainly stunned Howie with it.

But it was my impression that Ricks was sort of floating it out there as a teaser for something he'll be writing more about soon. Maybe he can better identify the "analysts" who are reporting this.

True or not, I wouldn't expect the notion to have much traction. There can always be "other reasons" for not targetting any specific area or event.

I'm sure there's even a "reason" for bombing the airport. Though I've not heard it yet and am unaware of any dreaded Hizbollah Air Force.

On the other hand, if someone in Israeli politics is feeling duped by Olmert/Likud and is "confessing" to US counterparts in order to orchestrate an "intervention," all bets are off.

--

removal of the captured Israeli soldiers out of Lebanon. Thus the Israeli gov't said/says they are destroying Hezbollah's "infrastructure" which allows them to operate and get more armaments.

Problem is, it's also Lebanon's infrastructure. Seems to me the only way to destroy Hezbollah's infrastructure is to destroy all of Lebanon, if one takes it to it's "logical" and horrible conclusion.

Seems to me that Hezbollah miscalculated Israel's reponse to the taking of its soldiers. Rather than a "measured" response, Israel went forward with a greater response than anticipated. Israel also miscalculated in thinking it could easily squash Hezbollah's military capacities in short order. And so we watch the destruction of a nation that is virtually defenseless against retribution by a superior armed nation. For the Israeli gov't it's a shooting gallery in Lebanon while they still haven't been able to crush Hezbollah's capacity to fire rockets on Israel.

What a fucking mess. And meanwhile people on both sides, who just want to live their lives in ordinary boring peace, die.

even though Ricks is a very credible journalist. That sounds like something from the evil mind of Karl Rove and George W Bush...

approriate amount of skepticism. I doubt any government analyst would speak to him at that level. However the free lancers are out there, and you get what you pay them for.

Who might they be?

Captain Kangaroo and Deputy Dog?

The man in charge of Lebanese affairs is this man, here seen with Ms. Albright in 1995:

http://www.namebase.org/main4/Uri-Lubrani.html

He admitted in an interview with Jpost (I only have the Norw. excerpts) that Israel 'screwed up' on Hizbollah, during the last six years, allowing the organization to build up militarily in southern Lebanon.
- We did nothing, even diplomatically. We screwed up, says Lubriani.
http://www.aftenposten.no/nyheter/uriks/article1411187.ece

Here's from a press briefing in 'happier days', in 1993:

"I must refer you to a quotation by Hizballah secretary-general Sheikh Nasrallah, a venerable gentleman who gave an interview to a Lebanese paper a few weeks ago and said, "We shall not bestow legality and legitimacy upon the Zionist entity, even if it cedes land to the Arabs and will retain any piece of land in Palestine. We shall adhere to the strategy of wiping Israel off the map." These are the words of Sheikh Nasrallah and we take him very seriously. This is the gentleman who commands Hizballah and, therefore, to expect us to unilaterally leave southern Lebanon and the Security Zone to its own devices - with these words by the leader of Hizballah - means that something much more catastrophic will emerge."
http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Foreign%20Relations/Israels%20Foreign%20Relations%20since%201947/1992-1994/94%20Briefing%20to%20the%20Press%20by%20Uri%20Lubrani-%20Coordiant

Here's a more recent pair of quotes:

"Uri Lubrani, Defence Minister's Adviser (Jerusalem Post, 4/8): "I know there's talk of a demilitarised zone. We need to insist that Hezbollah is reduced in its capacities. We need to insist that it comes under oversight and supervision from those who will have the gumption to resist its pressures, in an international force. We need to insist that Resolution 1559 be implemented to the full, that there be no threat at the border."

Uri Lubrani, Defence Minister's Adviser (Jerusalem Post, 4/8): "The international community has to make it possible for the Lebanese government to be able to govern free of threat - to marginalise Hezbollah’s capacity to browbeat and to threaten, to fulfil 1559 to the maximum.""
http://www.bicom.org.uk/briefings/quote_of_the_day/
(The page is dynamic, so the quotes may change)

In my new mindset about politicians, of any country, and their ability to lie through their teeth and even sacrifice their own citizens security for political goals, I'll keep an open mind about this. But it's not likely.

We need to wrap our heads around the fact that this is an old conflict, and that Israel's actions today may be somewhat desperate and not in control. It went on through the 90's and up to the present day without anyone actually doing something about the UN resolutions to disarm Hizbollah - peacefully.
There's some background here:
http://www.hrw.org/reports/1999/lebanon/Isrlb997-02.htm

Edit: cleaned up mangled English

I am not at all surprised to see this though. It was just a matter of time.

from the beginning.

And every time an Israeli is killed, people rush to the site and declare him (or her) to be a martyr, a great and glorious defender of the 'Am Israeli and of Judaism. They chant they want to give their "lives and souls" for Olmert and YHWH.

It's a great honor to be killed for your faith in Judaism. People put up posters praising you, and why there was even a woman who ran for office saying how proud she was that two of her sons died for YHWH, and she wished the others would, too.

It explains why they only have bomb shelters in Arab areas: they want to deprive Arabs of the right of being killed, the racist Zionists.



Moral equivalence run rampant, fueled by military analcysts.

because four weeks on Hizbollah still has weapons.

Would like to know if this is true before saying much at all. But I will not dismiss this either, because what Israel is doing is putting their people in harms way... just as the US has made itself more vulnerable to more terrorist attacks.

that attacking Lebenon would result in a counter attack and Israeli casualties. So far the Lebenese Govt. has stayed out of the conflict and has not been directly attacked by Israel. That could change. I sure hope Syria is not dragged into this or Iran.

I have been watching this all unravel with one eye open and the other closed. These neo-cons are seriously nuts to think they could have managed a WWIII. Then again these dweebs live in an alternate reality from most. Who the hell in their right mind would call themselves a "neo-con". It rings so nazi-like...

like "HEZBOLLA ROCKETS CONTINUE TO FLY" with the sub-headline "Hezbolla rockets kill 15 in Israel" (AP story in the local paper - Indiana)

oh, and by the way - Israel killed some people in Lebanon, also.


That's what it sounded like to me, anyway - as if we're not to worry about Lebanon because Israel is being hit so "hard". It sounded way skewed - considering what's going on.

. . . ineffective the Hizbollah rockets are. They are just fired in desperation anyway as a last resort in defense of the ruthless Israeli attack.

Israel knows that their only chance now is to have more dead in Israel than the IDF is creating in its genocide in Lebanon.

The IDF has to be killing their own citizens. They can't depend on those crummy Hizbollah rockets to do the job. Now, with mounting Israeli casualties the world will finally come to Israel's side - allowing Olmert to decimate the Lebanese population at will without having to pretend they are going after "military" targets.

Why would anyone expect less from a nation that staged the kidnapping of its own soldiers, sent a platoon into Lebanon to rescue them - and then ambushed its own platoon as a pretext for its long-planned move to annex Lebanon as the new Israel North - once they kill all the Arabs.

Oh yeah, then they intercepted AP photos of bomb damage in Beirut, doctored them, and sent them on to headquarters - so when they were discovered the world would know that Hizbollah was using propoganda to dramatize the destruction.

Damn, those Jews are smart.

This is a great big story!

It is Israel’s intention to deliberately disrupt the democracy and economy of Lebanon.
A flourishing Lebanon would enforce the Palestinians in their effort for an in depended state.
If they need to sacrifice a few of their own people a long the way, they would not hesitate.

the same ignored focus. Namely that there is something very wrong with the current israeli military. Its own officers have been noted to dissent and warn against the very blundering behavior which, some would say inevitably, led to the capture of soldiers. The same thick-headed repetition is responsible for misapplying gaza type strategy to lebanon despite the previous long failure in lebanon already.

You can say it is deliberate or incompetent. The main thing is, it adds up to what we see. Just like 9/11 the people are justly suspicious and angry at their own government but that is simply overwhelmed to non-existence by 'war" and "terror' directly against themselves. In Vietnam none of our territory or civilians suffered a scratch. With direct civilian "participation" criticism is forced to become impossible, secondary and unpatriotic.

It does not have to be deliberate to be wrong. Nor deliberate to have this bad effect on better judgment.

The major thing here is is the claim that this is the judgment of military experts, but I wish we could get through to all people that the main thing is that no one can get a grasp on the fact that this whole thing is WRONG, the actions not right, not even competent. Even if they were deliberate they either have insane, impossible goals or other agendas most people would abhor. Those agendas would be only held by a core and that sort of division itself is insane in thinking it can function even to its own ends depending on the blindness of its own government, its own military and especially its own people. In this case the madness resides in the fact that the major presumption is that this is for the good of the Israeli people.

Any way you look at it, however you hold the players to account, it is an abomination hiding behind what was a widely held, questionably pragmatic, principled policy "for the good of(fill in the blank)".

US military intelligence is a joke.

Don

This is just one big clusterfuck!