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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-06-06 11:59 PM
Original message
If I were Jewish...?
Edited on Mon Aug-07-06 12:14 AM by kentuck
I think it would be difficult to trust humanity. If someone tells us to bring the children on the trip, we would never expect them to be so gruesome and inhumane that they would kill our children. It would never enter our minds that people could be so cold and murdersome.

However, that happened with the Jewish parents in Germany in the 1930-40's. How could you trust anyone if something like that happened to you? I think it would be so emotionally traumatic that it could be hereditary, or passed on from generation to generation. How could you ever not be defensive in protecting your children and loved ones?

I cannot claim to know anything that I have not experienced. However, I can search my heart and soul for understanding. If the same thing had happened to me or to my loved ones, it would be almost impossible to trust humanity ever again. It would take a very strong and courageous people to rise above such an experience and to join the rest of humanity in a normal existence.
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jseankil Donating Member (604 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 12:10 AM
Response to Original message
1. Same with black people in America and Native Americans.
and many many other groups.
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 12:20 AM
Response to Reply #1
5. Romany
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 12:13 AM
Response to Original message
2. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 12:13 AM
Response to Original message
3. Children of the Holocaust share certain aspects
you can research it... and the next group to get this problem will be the kids of the Serbian genocide.

On a personal level what is going on right now has made me realize that I cannot trust the US NOT to go the way of Germany (and my passport is ready and in order)

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manic expression Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 12:23 AM
Response to Reply #3
6. As in what?
Exactly what traits are shared, in your opinion? The way I see it, not all Jews agree, but that's just my opinion after all.
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ruggerson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 12:15 AM
Response to Original message
4. I think about that too
and I think you are correct.
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manic expression Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 12:26 AM
Response to Original message
7. Yeah, never again*
*unless it happens to Sudanese people, or Rwandans, or Native Americans or anyone else we don't care about.

:puke:
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 12:34 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. Life is precious to us all...
The love of life is magnified when there is a threat of extinction of your entire people. The more you love life, the more you feel threatened, perhaps?
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manic expression Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 12:43 AM
Response to Reply #8
10. Right, to all
not just to a certain group of people.

Why is this important? Because those same people who said "never again" didn't give a toss about the Rwandan or Sudanese genocide, those same people didn't care when the US government funded the Guatemalan government's massacres of the Native Maya. It is simply disgusting and wrong on so many levels, I trust you can figure out why.

Oh, and those same people claim "self-defense" while mass-killings are common, collective punishment regular and ethnic cleansing a sanctioned policy (no prizes for guessing which country I'm talking about).

Just to clarify, what were you trying to say?
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Warren DeMontague Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 01:13 AM
Response to Reply #10
22. maybe you can clarify- who are "those people"?
Edited on Mon Aug-07-06 01:14 AM by impeachdubya
and why are they more responsible for Rwanda, or Sudan, or what happened to Native Americans than you are?
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 01:16 AM
Response to Reply #22
27. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Warren DeMontague Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 01:22 AM
Response to Reply #27
31. Who is saying "never again" and picking their nose?
Honestly. I'm confused about this axe you're grinding, here. It's not very clear. Is it about the Holocaust? What makes you think Holocaust survivors, as a group, "pick their nose" over what has happened in the Sudan? Do you have statistics to say that Holocaust survivors have been more indifferent to the plight of Native Americans than, say, Mormons?

Jews were at the forefront of the US Civil Rights movement in the 1960s, I know that much. Seems to me that some folks understand that blind hatred and demonization of one certain kind of people is no better than hatred and demonization of some other certain kind of people.

...And some folks, apparently, don't.
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manic expression Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 01:34 AM
Response to Reply #31
53. Quite a few people
What is unclear about it? Do you want their social security numbers?

"Never again" is a popular phrase which is related to the Holocaust. The people who are of this mindset proclaim to oppose genocide. Something that I find ridiculous is that these same people do nothing and say nothing when genocide does happen. If you look at said genocides, they are usually done to certain peoples, peoples that few really care about.

And if you want "statistics" you should get a grip. The fact is that this is a readily observable tendency, and anyone who cares to analyze the mindset would see this.

The fact remains that Mormons lack the blatant hypocrisy, so they aren't exactly relevant to this discussion.

They sure could've been at the forefront of the civil rights movement. Doesn't weaken my argument at all. Next question? Seems to me that you can't accept the fact that many people who claim to be so opposed to genocide can't seem to care when other people are killed en masse. "Never again", it seems, isn't extended all too far.
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AlienGirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 01:37 AM
Response to Reply #53
58. And many more are not, as you put it, "picking their noses"
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manic expression Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 01:44 AM
Response to Reply #58
70. What are you trying to say?
I've seen your links and I've responded to them. Would you like to make a point?

Moving on, many more are doing more than picking their noses, yes. That is wholly irrelevant to my argument and it does nothing to weaken my points, that much is clear.
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Warren DeMontague Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 01:46 AM
Response to Reply #70
72. She's got links.
You got bupkus.
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manic expression Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 01:47 AM
Response to Reply #72
76. Did you even read my post?
One wouldn't think so. Make a relevant point next time instead of getting your delusion all over the computer screen.

What do those links have to do with my argument? Just expand on their relevance, because the fact is that there is no relevance to them and your lack of a point has only shown that further.
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Warren DeMontague Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 01:54 AM
Response to Reply #76
85. I've read ALL your posts. Here, I'll sum 'em up.
"The people who say 'never again' are full of shit and hypocritical nose-pickers who don't really care about Genocide. Sure, okay, you have links? Well, you are clearly wrong because *I* have told you, now, twice that it's perfectly obvious that those people only care about themselves.

Now you must wilt in the face of my ironclad debating skills."


...How's that?
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manic expression Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 02:08 AM
Response to Reply #85
106. Yet you can't comprehend them, unfortunately
"Sure, okay, you have links?"

What do those links show? What relevance do they have to my arguments? Those links are meaningless in this argument.
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Warren DeMontague Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 01:45 AM
Response to Reply #53
71. That's an "argument"?
It's more like a sloppy series of broad-brush vague generalizations.

Like, "Those people are shiftless and lazy. Back it up?... What the fuck are you talking about? It's a readily observable tendency- Everybody knows it's true."
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manic expression Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 01:48 AM
Response to Reply #71
77. Yes, take notes
It's something that is quite common, your denial does nothing to change it.
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Warren DeMontague Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 01:49 AM
Response to Reply #77
80. Mmm Hmm.
"What I tell you three times is true."

Perhaps you should try to get a job with Cable News.
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manic expression Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 01:54 AM
Response to Reply #80
84. Perhaps
it is obvious that you haven't even put forth an argument whatsoever. Care to make a point?
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Warren DeMontague Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 01:54 AM
Response to Reply #84
87. I'm still waiting for you to clearly enunciate yours.
Then we'll see what happens.
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manic expression Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 02:05 AM
Response to Reply #87
100. I have
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Warren DeMontague Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 02:09 AM
Response to Reply #100
108. Sure, no prob.


Wanna buy a monkey?
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manic expression Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 02:11 AM
Response to Reply #108
113. I expected as much n/t
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AlienGirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 01:24 AM
Response to Reply #27
34. You mean these people?
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manic expression Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 01:36 AM
Response to Reply #34
56. Not really
people who actually act aren't the point. Did I say they were?
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AlienGirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 01:38 AM
Response to Reply #56
62. You seemed to imply a certain demographic was apathetic about genocide
I say that demographic is not apathetic.

Tucker
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manic expression Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 01:46 AM
Response to Reply #62
74. Not a demographic
but quite a few people who display a patently hypocritical mindset. Perhaps you could extend me the courtesy of not putting words in my mouth.
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AlienGirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 02:01 AM
Response to Reply #74
96. As you said, "those people" and "those same people"
That would seem to imply a certain demographic breakdown.

Perhaps you could just say what "those people" means, instead of skirting the issue.

Tucker
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manic expression Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 02:06 AM
Response to Reply #96
103. Read the posts
"those same people" was referring to those who claim "never again" while doing and saying nothing about Rwanda, Sudan or other genocides which victimize people they simply don't care about.

Seriously, reading the posts gives you the information you are asking for. The people I am talking about are specified, and that is then referred to in subsequent posts.
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AlienGirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 02:09 AM
Response to Reply #103
109. So, you mean Rush Limbaugh, Bill O'Reilley, and Michelle Malkin?
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manic expression Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 02:13 AM
Response to Reply #109
114. No
try reading them again.
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AlienGirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 02:19 AM
Response to Reply #114
121. I'm a little slow, so please, spell it out for me
If you do not mean a group of people, and you do not mean specific individuals, then who exactly do you mean?

Tucker
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manic expression Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 02:23 AM
Response to Reply #121
125. Let me ask you a question
does a "group of people" equal a "demographic"?

I'll give you a hint: it doesn't. A group of people can be any mix of individuals who share something in common. In this case, that commonality is the mindset I outlined.

Is that really so hard to understand?
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AlienGirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 02:25 AM
Response to Reply #125
127. Why are the opinions of that group at issue in a thread about Jews?
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manic expression Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 02:28 AM
Response to Reply #127
130. Because
the original poster showed a great amount of compassion for the persecution of the Jews, but a perspective of other groups which have been victims of genocide was not to be found. My post added the perspective while criticizing said group for said reasons.
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AlienGirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 02:31 AM
Response to Reply #130
131. Would it be OK if the OP was demonstrating compassion for Palestinians
without similarly mentioning Native Americans, Kashmiri, and Tibetans?

Why must no one be allowed to talk about the genocide against the Jews without having to point out how many other times it has happened since?

Tucker
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manic expression Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 02:35 AM
Response to Reply #131
136. If the words were replaced
and the poster claimed that Palestinians couldn't trust humanity (or something to that effect), then it is possible that I would add another perspective, even though Palestinians are presently persecuted and oppressed to the worst of degrees. I say "perhaps" because I can't confidently say what I would've done, and neither can you.

No, the OP suggested that Jews can justifiably not trust humanity, but the fact is that any group can and should.
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AlienGirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 02:36 AM
Response to Reply #136
137. No group can entirely trust humanity
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manic expression Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 01:19 AM
Response to Reply #22
28. And by the way
if you read the two posts and comprehended both of them you could've figured it out.
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Warren DeMontague Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 01:22 AM
Response to Reply #28
32. I don't know, man. I don't like guessing games.
Seems to me if you want to say something, you should just come out and say it.
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manic expression Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 01:25 AM
Response to Reply #32
36. You don't have to guess
comprehending the point is good enough.
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AlienGirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 01:30 AM
Response to Reply #36
47. .
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manic expression Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 01:48 AM
Response to Reply #47
78. And? n/t
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Porcupine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 12:42 AM
Response to Original message
9. WTF are you talking about? Is this an attempt at an excuse?
Edited on Mon Aug-07-06 01:07 AM by Porcupine
"Hey, the Nazis killed my grandpa and 5 of his cousins so I'm going to kill your kids before you kill mine......"

It doesn't pass the smell test. Just for starters many of the jews in Israel are Russian or Sephardim. Although they had many problems in the places they came from they never experienced the Holocaust.
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Erika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 12:48 AM
Response to Reply #9
12. More or less
Warfare brought to you and paid for by U.S. taxpayers.
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mtice Donating Member (114 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 12:48 AM
Response to Reply #9
13. But many Israelis have experienced the Holocaust
... either directly or through their parents and grandparents. Even if they hadn't, does it make the current war to exterminate the Jews any less evil? And now they are surrounded once again by people who want to kill them for nothing more than being Jews. How a person can in good conscience fail to stand by the Israelis escapes me.
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breakaleg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 12:51 AM
Response to Reply #13
15. current war to exterminate Jews? what are you talking about?`
It's ISRAEL that is killing Lebanon and it's people.

I think you have it backwards.
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mtice Donating Member (114 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 01:04 AM
Response to Reply #15
18. I wish you were correct
But I would be deluding myself.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hassan_Nasrallah

"It is an open war until the elimination of Israel and until the death of the last Jew on earth." - Hassan Nasrallah, 1992

"if they all gather in Israel, it will save us the trouble of going after them worldwide." - Hassan Nasrallah, 10/22/2002

If Israel disappeared tomorrow, the war that Hezbollah and others are fighting against it would not end, if we are to take them at their word.

Please take some time to learn about what is going on before jumping to conclusions and displaying your ignorance for the world to see.
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breakaleg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 01:09 AM
Response to Reply #18
20. does Israel really feel threatened by Hezbollah?
The reports we've seen so far indicate they expected this "war" to take much less time than it has - days instead of weeks or months. That tells me, Israel doesn't really perceive them to be a real threat.

Since they have nowhere near the capability to actually follow through on these threats, then Israel is over-reacting. They are using these empty threats as an excuse for this unjust war.

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mtice Donating Member (114 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 01:25 AM
Response to Reply #20
37. When Hezb is raining missiles down on Israel...
... and taking its soldiers hostage, building up a massive arsenal while talking about killing off every last Jew on the planet, then yeah, I'd say Israel considers them a real threat. It would be insane not to.
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breakaleg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 01:33 AM
Response to Reply #37
49. But didn't many in the IDF in Israel say they thought it would be over
by now? How is a group that Israel perceives as weak enough to demolish in weeks, manage to destroy millions of people?

They have so far killed about 100 Israelis. Not millions. And they never can.

Unless you are saying that as long as they have the ability to kill even 1 Israeli, then any and all violence is appropriate. It's certainly overkill, but that seems to be the common thinking.
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Erika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 01:40 AM
Response to Reply #49
64. Overkill is just the right term
Two soldiers are kidnapped, and Israel destroys the infrastructure of another country bombing it into stone age, and its inhabitants.
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Erika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 01:33 AM
Response to Reply #37
52. You have quotes? n/t
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Warren DeMontague Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 01:42 AM
Response to Reply #52
67. Which quotes are you looking for- Nasrallah?
On October 22, 2002, Hassan Nasrallah told Lebanon’s Daily Star, “If they all gather in Israel, it will save us the trouble of going after them world wide.”

"If we searched the entire world for a person more cowardly, despicable, weak and feeble in psyche, mind, ideology and religion, we would not find anyone like the Jew. Notice, I do not say the Israeli." (New Yorker, Oct. 14, 2002)

"Martyrdom operations - suicide bombings - should be exported outside Palestine. I encourage Palestinians to take suicide bombings worldwide. Don't be shy about it." (Washington Times, Dec. 6, 2002)

"Just like Hitler fought the Jews, we are a great Islamic nation of jihad, and we too should fight the Jews and burn them." — Hisham Shamas, political science student, at a symposium hosted by... Al-Manar TV at Lebanon's Université Libanaise, November 29, 2005 (from the New York Sun, July 26, 2006).

***

Or maybe you're looking for independent verification that missiles are currently raining down on Israel.
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Erika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 01:26 AM
Response to Reply #18
39. Jews and Muslims have been fighting since Abraham
Nothing new. The mistake was made when WW II powers stole land to set up an Israeli state.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 12:56 AM
Response to Reply #13
16. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
breakaleg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 01:05 AM
Response to Reply #16
19. my goodness.....
this is unreal:

The army has investigated just 90 Palestinian deaths, usually under outside pressure. Seven soldiers have been convicted: three for manslaughter, none for murder.

Last month, a military court sentenced a soldier to 20 months in prison for shooting dead a Palestinian man as he adjusted his TV aerial, the longest sentence yet for killing a civilian, and less than Israeli conscientious objectors have got for refusing to serve in the army.

------

from your link.
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Erika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 01:19 AM
Response to Reply #19
29. They hold Palestinian lives cheap, don't they? n/t
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 01:28 AM
Response to Reply #19
44. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 01:43 AM
Response to Reply #44
69. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 01:52 AM
Response to Reply #69
82. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
breakaleg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 01:56 AM
Response to Reply #82
88. who said Israel has no right to exist in this thread? I don't think
anyone here is auguring that point. That was a leap.

I think it is often brought up as an excuse for all of the atrocities Israel has committed on the Palestinians.
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mtice Donating Member (114 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 02:00 AM
Response to Reply #88
94. Denial of Israel's right to exist
is necessary to make a claim that any of the land it occupies today is "Palestinian land". Who has the authority to assign such ownership of the land to Palestinians?
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 02:04 AM
Response to Reply #94
98. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
mtice Donating Member (114 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 02:08 AM
Response to Reply #98
105. And I'm to take you as an authority?
By whose standard is the land Palestinian? Is this your personal standard? Your religious belief? Do you concede a third party, international law, or longstanding custom as a fair arbiter of whose land is whose? Does America also sit on "stolen" land?
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manic expression Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 02:11 AM
Response to Reply #105
111. Did I say me?
No, I didn't. Read the posts and maybe you'll get somewhere.

Since Palestinian people were living on the land, it is theirs. Zionists have no right to take land which other people are living on. That is an irrefutable fact.

And yes, America does largely sit on stolen land.
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mtice Donating Member (114 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 02:34 AM
Response to Reply #111
134. When the Zionist project was started
there were fewer than 25,000 people total living between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean. The Jews settled an empty desert, gave it life, and created opportunities that brought many Arabs from elsewhere to the area. If you (can) do the math you will find that the birthrate necessary to turn 25,000 people in 1882 into 1.5 million or more today is unfeasable. Moreover, many of those 25,000 were Jews to begin with. So the number of non-Jews who have any historical claim to the land at all is extremely small, and many of those are already citizens of Israel, loyal to Israel and not to the criminal-terrorist nexus that rules the Palestinians.

The farce that this is about land is a joke. Israel pulled out of Lebanon completely in 2000. Did that satisfy Hezbollah? No, they immediately set to militarize as much as possible and to pursue further assaults upon Israel. This past year, Israel pulled out of Gaza, completely, even forcing its own citizens out of the homes they built with their own hands, and handed the territory over in total to the Palestinians. Did that satisfy them? No, immediately they turned around and made Gaza into an armed camp out of which increasing numbers of rockets were fired into Israel proper.

So really, the only way you can be consistent in your argument is to say that Israel has no right to exist at all. You might as well stake your hat on that one because it is at least an consistent, if revolting, point of view.
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breakaleg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 02:11 AM
Response to Reply #94
112. Let me get this straight.
So in order to believe that Israel has stolen Palestinian land, I would also have to believe that Israel doesn't have a right to exist?

Does the UN think Israel has a right to exist? Because I'm pretty sure they've determined that Israel has in fact stolen Israel land with all of those illegal settlements it's built inside the occupied territory of the West Bank.
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mtice Donating Member (114 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 02:26 AM
Response to Reply #112
128. The UN?
"Because I'm pretty sure they've determined that Israel has in fact stolen Israel land with all of those illegal settlements it's built inside the occupied territory of the West Bank."

Ah, yes, the UN. According to the UN ratification of the Palestinian Mandate, the Palestinian land is Jordan, and Israel belongs to the Jews. Furthermore according to the UN, Hezbollah should not be running the entire south and east of Lebanon. Continuing with the UN, we must ask why the only refugees in the world who have not been settled in three generations or more are the ones in Israel. And according to the UN, Iran is not allowed to make nuclear weapons.

If we go by the UN, the Muslim genocide of Jews will be complete in no time. And I suspect you would be perfectly satisfied with that.
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breakaleg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 02:32 AM
Response to Reply #128
133. You are crossing a line here.
Accusing me - twice - of being an anti-semite, simply because I disagree with you, is completely uncalled for.

According to you, who clearly has no respect for the UN, who does the land in the West Bank and the Gaza strip belong to? Because I'm pretty sure they, and the rest of the world realizes it belongs to the Palestinians.
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manic expression Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 02:02 AM
Response to Reply #82
97. If you start from the FACT
that Israel has NO RIGHT to steal land that doesn't belong to Israel, then it's pretty clear.

You really have no clue. It is Palestinian land BECAUSE PALESTINIANS ARE LIVING ON IT, IT IS THEIR TERRITORY. Do I have to draw you a picture? By every convention of history it ISN'T ISRAELI LAND, because Palestinians have been living there for quite awhile.

"Otherwise you may as well go follow the logic the whole way and say the Celts should own Ireland and the Visigoths all of Northern Europe, and the American Indians should own all of America, and so on..."

What are you talking about? The land of Palestine is Palestinian, it was taken from them by Israel mere generations ago, they have the right to the land that belongs to them.

Indigenous? WTF are you talking about? Define "indigenous", because if you use the standard of French people being "indigenous" to France, then Palestinians are "indigenous" to Palestine. If you say an indigenous people has the right to the land, you are wrong, because then Pakistan would belong to the gypsies, everything from Northern Italy to France to Spain would belong to the Celts, Turkey wouldn't be Turkey. Just because your very, very, very distant progenitors lived somewhere doesn't give you any right to steal it from someone else. Actually, by your logic, the US would have to cede everything to the Native tribes. Get a clue.

No, it isn't absurd to talk about land. Why? Because land is important, it is something that people cherish and live off of. THAT was stolen from the Palestinians by the Zionists, and THAT is wrong. It IS about the fact that Israel is guilty of theft and ethnic cleansing and injustice and worse, and that is why people oppose their crimes.

If you knew anything, you'd know that Jews were living in Palestine before the Zionists came, and whent he Zionists came and started to kill people and steal their land, that's when all of this started.

Read up (you REALLY need it):

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/spl/hi/middle_east/03/v3_ip_timeline/html/default.stm
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mtice Donating Member (114 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 02:14 AM
Response to Reply #97
117. By your logic then
When Israelis settle a piece of land, it is properly Israeli territory thereafter, because Israelis are living on it.

Arabs already own 99.98% of the land in the Middle East. How much more do you think they need?

(Now I understand what a thorough ignorance of history it takes to be an anti-Semite.)
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breakaleg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 02:18 AM
Response to Reply #117
119. It's not about need. it's about who owns it.
I don't need a mansion in Beverly hills, but I certainly wouldn't want someone to come along and inform me that I have more than my share and they are giving some of my land to my neighbour.

(not that I have any such mansion)
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mtice Donating Member (114 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 02:22 AM
Response to Reply #119
123. If it's about ownership then
Then the Jews own it on the same basis that anyone else owns their land. You do realize that the Israeli state in 1948 consisted of land bought and paid for by Jews at ten times its value, thought worthless by its previous owners because it was desolate, barren, largely uninhabited desert? No, I guess you don't.
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manic expression Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 02:25 AM
Response to Reply #123
126. No, they don't own it
if you knew anything, you'd know that the Zionists were evicting Palestinians before 1948. Even ignoring that fact, almost immediately after Israel came into being hundreds of thousands of Palestinians were kicked off their land by force by Israel. Israel STOLE their land from them.

Even today, Israeli settlements are on PALESTINIAN LAND, showing the fact that Israel is all about theft of land.
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breakaleg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 02:28 AM
Response to Reply #126
129. I agree. There are still land disputes going on since Israel took over
that need to be addressed. Israel today, is still stealing land from the Palestinians, many of whom have paperwork to document ownership.
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manic expression Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 02:21 AM
Response to Reply #117
122. No
because through "settling" on that piece of land, they are occupying land that belongs to someone else. Since its acquisition is through theft, it is not theirs.

You would do well to look through a history book or a dictionary sometime.

How much more do they need? How about the LAND THAT F*CKING BELONGS TO THEM?! How about that?

And are you really calling me an anti-semite? Are you serious? You are beyond wrong, you are more than delusional. Get a grip.

History? Read up:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/spl/hi/middle_east/03/v3_ip_timeline/html/default.stm
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breakaleg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 01:54 AM
Response to Reply #69
86. what he said. n/t
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Chulanowa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 01:14 AM
Response to Reply #13
23. And yet, for some reason...
Jews keep moving to Israel, despite the supposed hordes of Ay-rabs that want to kill them and drink their body fluids.

You know, this brings us to two possible conclusions...

Either...
1) There are indeed nothing but genocidal maniacs in the neighboring lands, meaning that Israelis are willingly putting their lives and their very race in danger by insisting on living there
or...
2) There are in fact no such ravening hordes - at least none with the capability to succeed in their delusions.

I'm opting for #2, myself, because I figure the people of Israel are about as smart and interested in self-preservation as anyone else.
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breakaleg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 01:25 AM
Response to Reply #23
38. if the threat was a real as they claim, there would be a mass exodus
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mtice Donating Member (114 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 01:33 AM
Response to Reply #38
50. Exodus to where?
There is nowhere left for Jews to run to. Would you have them risk a second genocide in Europe? If they ran to South America, do you think Hezbollah would not strike them there (again, as they did in 1994 in Buenos Aires in the worst civilian mass murder in Argentine history)? Perhaps you have not read the news, but even as far away from Israel as Seattle, Jews are still being murdered by the same folks motivated by the same old hatred.

Jews today do not have the choice to run. They can either fight for their survival or die. Which would you prefer they do?
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breakaleg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 02:16 AM
Response to Reply #50
118. following the original post in this sub-thread...
I was suggesting they leave the place where they Arabs want them gone (to rephrase).

And many countries would welcome them, as is evident by the fact that many Jews do live outside Israel, and quite happily.
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Erika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 01:15 AM
Response to Reply #13
25. No one wishes extermination of the Jews
That went out with Hitler. Israel needs to learn how to get along with its neighbors or move to Oklahoma or somewhere.

They have destroyed the ability to get relief to the Lebanese. They need to own up to that.
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AlienGirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 01:28 AM
Response to Reply #25
45. What about this guy?
"It is an open war until the elimination of Israel and until the death of the last Jew on earth." - Hassan Nasrallah, 1992

Does that sound like he does *not* want Jews to be exterminated?

Tucker
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breakaleg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 01:30 AM
Response to Reply #45
46. 1992, and the guy has probably less weapons in his arsenal than
Israel used on Lebanon in one day. Oh, and no airplanes. Oh, and no guidance systems.

He's not going to eliminate anyone.
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AlienGirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 01:33 AM
Response to Reply #46
51. Has he done or said anything since to repudiate his statement?
I don't care what his weapons are; the statement was made that genocidal anti-Jewish sentiment "went out with Hitler." Clearly, the statement in question refutes that assertion.

Tucker
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breakaleg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 01:48 AM
Response to Reply #51
79. You are correct, this guy does mean his statement.
I assumed you brought up this statement as a justification for Israel essentially declaring war on Lebanon. I was trying to make the point that this guy is incapable of actually following through on this threat to exterminate all Israelis, and therefore, the threat he made was empty, and not a justification for this war.
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mtice Donating Member (114 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 01:56 AM
Response to Reply #79
90. So you would wait until hard proof
that he can back up his claim appeared before you would sanction an Israeli response. Would a nuke on Tel Aviv do it for you? Besides the hundreds of rockets and missiles raining down on Israel every day, thousands in just the past few weeks, what other proof does any reasonable person need? To ask for such extreme proof betrays a desire to see just that happen. Would you feel bad if Nasrallah managed to achieve his goals? Would you admit your error, even then? Would you apologize to the Jews then for your naievete now, assuming there was one left to accept the apology?
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breakaleg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 02:04 AM
Response to Reply #90
99. You are talking about having enough reason to justify
starting a war. I'm saying that the threats he made are justification enough.

I think Israel does, or did, need more evidence to launch an offensive attack on another nation, than they actually had.

They are supposed to have all of this sophisticated intelligence, yet they don't know where the weapons are and are missing their targets daily. How could they be sure he was the threat they assumed he was?

And yes, I would apologize. But it is a huge leap to assume that day will come.
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AlienGirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 01:58 AM
Response to Reply #79
93. This is not a thread about the war
This is a thread about whether Jews have reason to fear that some non-Jewish people will attack them for being Jewish.

Tucker
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breakaleg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 02:06 AM
Response to Reply #93
102. Assuming there are people who would attack Jews.
What impact does that have on this current conflict? Hate in and of itself is not a justification for war.
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AlienGirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 02:11 AM
Response to Reply #102
110. This is not a thread about the current conflict; see the OP
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Karenca Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 02:22 AM
Response to Reply #25
124. That went out with Hitler?
Active U.S. Hate Groups in 2005

Neo-Nazi

157 Hate Groups Found

Neo-Nazi groups share a hatred for Jews and a love for Adolf Hitler and Nazi Germany. While they also hate other minorities, homosexuals and even sometimes Christians, they perceive "the Jew" as their cardinal enemy, and trace social problems to a Jewish conspiracy that supposedly controls governments, financial institutions and the media.
While some neo-Nazi groups emphasize simple hatred, others are more focused on the revolutionary creation of a fascist political state. Nazism, of course, has roots in Europe, and links between American and European neo-Nazis are strong and growing stronger. American neo-Nazi groups, protected by the First Amendment, often publish material and host Internet sites that are aimed at European audiences -- materials that would be illegal under European anti-racism laws. Similarly, many European groups put up their Internet sites on American servers to avoid prosecution under the laws of their native countries.

The most important neo-Nazi group in the U.S. is the National Alliance. Until his death, it was led by William Pierce, the infamous author of the futuristic race-war novel The Turner Diaries, a book believed by some to have served as the blueprint for the 1995 Oklahoma City bombing.


City Chapter Group
Alabama
Alexander City
· Aryan Raiders
Neo-Nazi
Bon Air
· Aryan Nations
Neo-Nazi
Lincoln
· Aryan Nations
Neo-Nazi
Montgomery
· National Vanguard
Neo-Nazi
Arizona
· White Revolution
Neo-Nazi
Arizona City
· Aryan Nations
Neo-Nazi
Black Canyon
· American Thule Society
Neo-Nazi
Phoenix
· National Alliance
Neo-Nazi
Tempe
· National Vanguard
Neo-Nazi
Arkansas
Conway
· National Socialist Movement
Neo-Nazi
Lincoln
· National Vanguard
Neo-Nazi
Little Rock
· Aryan Nations
Neo-Nazi
London
· Aryan Nations
Neo-Nazi
Russellville
· White Revolution
Neo-Nazi
California
· Aryan Nations Youth Action Corps
Neo-Nazi
Bakersfield
· National Vanguard
Neo-Nazi
Citrus Heights
· Aryan Nations
Neo-Nazi
Fallbrook
· White Aryan Resistance
Neo-Nazi
Fresno
· National Socialist Movement
Neo-Nazi
· SS Enterprises
Neo-Nazi
Oceanside
· National Socialist Movement
Neo-Nazi
Riverside
· National Alliance
Neo-Nazi
Sacramento
· National Alliance
Neo-Nazi
· National Vanguard
Neo-Nazi
· White Revolution
Neo-Nazi
San Francisco
· National Socialist Movement
Neo-Nazi
Colorado
Colorado Springs
· National Socialist Movement
Neo-Nazi
Denver
· National Socialist Movement
Neo-Nazi
· National Vanguard
Neo-Nazi
Connecticut
Stratford
· White Revolution
Neo-Nazi
Delaware
Newark
· National Socialist Movement
Neo-Nazi
Florida
Clearwater
· Creativity Movement
Neo-Nazi
Orlando
· National Socialist Movement
Neo-Nazi
Sarasota
· National Socialist Movement
Neo-Nazi
Seminole
· Creativity Movement
Neo-Nazi
St. Petersburg
· National Vanguard
Neo-Nazi
Tampa Bay
· National Socialist Movement
Neo-Nazi
Georgia
Augusta
· National Socialist Movement
Neo-Nazi
Brooks
· White Revolution
Neo-Nazi
Conyers
· Aryan Nations
Neo-Nazi
Savannah
· National Alliance
Neo-Nazi
Idaho
Athol
· National Socialist Movement
Neo-Nazi
Coeur D'Alene
· Aryan Nations
Neo-Nazi
Illinois
· White Revolution
Neo-Nazi
Bloomington
· Creativity Movement
Neo-Nazi
Chicago
· National Alliance
Neo-Nazi
Joliet
· Creativity Movement
Neo-Nazi
North Riverside
· National Socialist Movement
Neo-Nazi
Schiller Park
· National Socialist Movement
Neo-Nazi
Indiana
Fort Wayne
· National Socialist Movement
Neo-Nazi
Lebanon
· National Socialist Movement
Neo-Nazi
Peru
· American Thule Society
Neo-Nazi
Wakarusa
· National Socialist Movement
Neo-Nazi
Kansas
Hutchinson
· National Socialist Movement
Neo-Nazi
Kansas City
· National Socialist Movement
Neo-Nazi
Scandia
· National Socialist Movement
Neo-Nazi
Topeka
· White Revolution
Neo-Nazi
Wichita
· National Socialist Movement
Neo-Nazi
Louisiana
Arabi
· Christian Defense League
Neo-Nazi
Baton Rouge
· National Vanguard
Neo-Nazi
New Orleans
· National Alliance
Neo-Nazi
Walker
· National Socialist Movement
Neo-Nazi
Maryland
· National Socialist Movement
Neo-Nazi
Baltimore
· National Alliance
Neo-Nazi
Edgewater
· SS Regalia
Neo-Nazi
Massachusetts
Boston
· National Socialist Movement
Neo-Nazi
· National Vanguard
Neo-Nazi
Haverhill
· White Revolution
Neo-Nazi
Peabody
· Creativity Movement
Neo-Nazi
Michigan
Cadillac
· National Socialist Movement
Neo-Nazi
Detroit
· National Alliance
Neo-Nazi
· National Socialist Movement
Neo-Nazi
Grand Rapids
· National Socialist Movement
Neo-Nazi
Ironwood
· White Revolution
Neo-Nazi
Petoskey
· Creativity Movement
Neo-Nazi
Rhodes
· Aryan Nations (offshoot)
Neo-Nazi
Westland
· American Nazi Party
Neo-Nazi
Minnesota
· Aryan Nations Youth Action Corps
Neo-Nazi
· National Socialist Movement
Neo-Nazi
Hutchinson
· National Socialist Movement
Neo-Nazi
Minneapolis
· National Socialist Movement
Neo-Nazi
Minneapolis/St. Paul
· National Alliance
Neo-Nazi
Mississippi
Raymond
· Creativity Movement
Neo-Nazi
Southaven
· National Alliance
Neo-Nazi
Missouri
Jefferson City
· National Socialist Movement
Neo-Nazi
Springfield
· Creativity Movement
Neo-Nazi
St. Louis
· National Socialist Movement
Neo-Nazi
· National Vanguard
Neo-Nazi
Montana
Bozeman
· National Alliance
Neo-Nazi
Butte
· National Socialist Movement
Neo-Nazi
Nebraska
Lincoln
· National Socialist German Workers Party
Neo-Nazi
Omaha
· National Vanguard
Neo-Nazi
· White Revolution
Neo-Nazi
Nevada
Elko
· National Socialist Movement
Neo-Nazi
Fallon
· National Socialist Movement
Neo-Nazi
Las Vegas
· National Socialist Movement
Neo-Nazi
· National Vanguard
Neo-Nazi
New Hampshire
Winchester
· White Revolution
Neo-Nazi
New Jersey
Hewitt
· National Vanguard
Neo-Nazi
Livingston
· National Socialist Movement
Neo-Nazi
New York
New York
· National Socialist Movement
Neo-Nazi
Rochester
· National Vanguard
Neo-Nazi
West Hurley
· National Vanguard
Neo-Nazi
North Carolina
Benson
· National Alliance
Neo-Nazi
Elizabeth city
· National Socialist Movement
Neo-Nazi
Greensboro
Laurinburg
· National Vanguard
Neo-Nazi
Monroe
· White Revolution
Neo-Nazi
Raleigh
· National Alliance
Neo-Nazi
Siler City
· National Alliance
Neo-Nazi
Ohio
Cincinnati
· National Alliance
Neo-Nazi
· National Socialist Movement
Neo-Nazi
Cleveland
· National Alliance
Neo-Nazi
Covington
· National Socialist Movement
Neo-Nazi
Freemont
· National Socialist Movement
Neo-Nazi
Lakewood
· Creativity Movement
Neo-Nazi
· National Socialist Movement
Neo-Nazi
Marion
· Aryan Nations
Neo-Nazi
Oklahoma
Lawton
· White Revolution
Neo-Nazi
Tulsa
· National Socialist Movement
Neo-Nazi
Oregon
North Bend
· Aryan Nations
Neo-Nazi
Portland
· National Socialist Movement
Neo-Nazi
Pennsylvania
Bethlehem
· National Socialist Movement
Neo-Nazi
Cleona
· American Thule Society
Neo-Nazi
Lemoyne
· Aryan Nations
Neo-Nazi
Myerstown
· National Socialist Movement
Neo-Nazi
Philadelphia
· American Thule Society
Neo-Nazi
· National Socialist Movement
Neo-Nazi
South Carolina
Drayton
· Aryan Nations
Neo-Nazi
Enoree
· National Socialist Movement
Neo-Nazi
Lexington
· Aryan Nations (offshoot)
Neo-Nazi
South Dakota
· National Socialist Movement
Neo-Nazi
Tennessee
Chattanooga
· National Alliance
Neo-Nazi
Clarksville
· White Revolution
Neo-Nazi
Memphis
· National Alliance
Neo-Nazi
Nashville
· National Socialist Movement
Neo-Nazi
Texas
Dallas/Fort Worth
· National Alliance
Neo-Nazi
Houston
· National Vanguard
Neo-Nazi
Lubbock
· National Socialist Movement
Neo-Nazi
Utah
Salt Lake City
· National Alliance
Neo-Nazi
Virginia
Berryville
· National Socialist Movement
Neo-Nazi
Charlottesville
· National Vanguard
Neo-Nazi
Harrisonburg
· National Socialist Movement
Neo-Nazi
Newport News
· Creativity Movement
Neo-Nazi
Richmond
· American Thule Society
Neo-Nazi
Roanoke
· National Socialist Movement
Neo-Nazi
Washington
Kent
· National Socialist Movement
Neo-Nazi
Mukilteo
· National Socialist Movement
Neo-Nazi
Seattle
· National Vanguard
Neo-Nazi
Tacoma
· Aryan Nations
Neo-Nazi
West Virginia
Charleston
· White Revolution
Neo-Nazi
Hillsboro
· National Alliance
Neo-Nazi
Romney
· National Socialist Movement
Neo-Nazi
Wisconsin
Madison
· Aryan Nations
Neo-Nazi
Milwaukee
· New Order
Neo-Nazi
Wyoming
Cheyenne
· International National Socialist Party
Neo-Nazi
Douglas
· National Alliance
Neo-Nazi


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rockymountaindem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 12:49 AM
Response to Reply #9
14. Russian Jews sure did experience the Holocaust
1 million of them died, most of them shot by the Einsatzgruppen. Not to mention all the pogroms for 80 years prior to that, one of which killed two of my ancestors. The Sephardim who live in Israel are the decendants of those expelled by the Arab states in 1949. There is not one segment of Israeli society which does not have some persicution in its past.

Israel has adopted these harsh tactics because early on they realized that some of their neighbors were not willing to coexist with Israel, so Israel was not going to coexist with them. The Talmud says that if someone is going to kill you, get up early and kill them first. I think that's good advice.
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Porcupine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 01:15 AM
Response to Reply #14
24. So bombing apartment blocks full of kids is A-OK with you?
because somebody a thousand miles away and fifty years ago tried to kill the pilots grandfather and failed. MY grandfather was booted out of Palestine by the British; does that mean I have a licence to kill people in Nevada? I don't think so.

One injustice NEVER excuses another. NEVER.
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rockymountaindem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 01:23 AM
Response to Reply #24
33. I'm sorry about your grandfather
Edited on Mon Aug-07-06 01:23 AM by rockymountaindem
But after all this, Israelis are not about to let anyone think they can get away with attacking its citizens, nor is it particularly willing to listen to other countries which do not have its best interests in mind. That is that.
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mtice Donating Member (114 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 01:27 AM
Response to Reply #24
41. Is it honestly your opinion
That it was Israel's intent to kill children? Please say so explicitly so you can't worm out of it when I reply, thanks.
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Erika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 01:32 AM
Response to Reply #41
48. When either side bombs without clear targets
yes, they show a lack of interest as to who the dead may be.
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mtice Donating Member (114 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 01:35 AM
Response to Reply #48
54. And when there is a clear target
consisting of a Lebanese school full of children with a Hezbollah missile launcher on top firing away, what would you have the IDF do? Whose responsibility are the deaths of those children, that of the IDF who did not know they were there, or that of Hezbollah who purposely set up this Hobbesean choice?
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Erika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 01:36 AM
Response to Reply #54
57. A dead child is a dead child
Edited on Mon Aug-07-06 01:37 AM by Erika
Does that mean anything to you? It doesn't matter the side.
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mtice Donating Member (114 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 01:41 AM
Response to Reply #57
65. Of course it does
The question is who is responsible for it, the Israelis who are taking out missile launchers, or the Hezbollah who are setting up their launchers in schoolyards, and turning hospitals into arsenals?
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breakaleg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 01:39 AM
Response to Reply #54
63. let's see, if it was at a school, then the IDF. after all, isn't it
expected to find children in a school? where else would they hide?

There are NO circumstances under which it is NOT Israel's responsibility if they in fact bombed a school. It is Israel's responsibility to ensure there are no children before they drop any bombs.

But I'm sure you'll find a way to blame the other side. Accepting responsibility doesn't seem to be Israel's strong suit.
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mtice Donating Member (114 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 01:46 AM
Response to Reply #63
73. Clue train coming through
The Israelis for days told everyone to get out. Hezbollah threatened to kill anyone who left.

By the way, do the Israeli children that Hezbollah and other Muslim groups have been killing for years register in your calculation at all? Are you even aware that for decades a genocidal war has been being waged against the Jews in Israel? Are you completely oblivious to the context in which this war is happening?
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breakaleg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 01:51 AM
Response to Reply #73
81. I am very much aware of the context of this war. And very much
Edited on Mon Aug-07-06 02:19 AM by breakaleg
aware that in many ways, Israel brought all of this CURRENT hatred by the Muslims on themselves by the occupation of Palestine. They aren't simply occupying their land - illegally, I might add - but they shoot them randomly, they steal their water, they have checkpoints all over the place to limit their movement thereby limiting their ability to support themselves. The list is endless!

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Erika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 01:57 AM
Response to Reply #73
92. Please prove your allegations about Hezbollah threatening
any who left. Once again, I ask you for proof of your wild assertations.
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mtice Donating Member (114 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 02:06 AM
Response to Reply #92
101. MY wild assertions??
This thread is full of people saying the Israelis are deliberately killing children (classic anti-Semitic blood libel), and my assertions are wild?

Cue the Twilight Zone music!
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manic expression Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 02:14 AM
Response to Reply #101
116. Are you even listening to yourself?
someone asks you to support your claims, and you blather something about anti-semitism? Get a grip.
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Porcupine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 02:14 AM
Response to Reply #54
115. So it would be ok to kill a school full of Lebanese children.....
to eliminate the possibility that an Israeli child could be killed? Katusha's used in this context are tactically useless. They harass but do not effectively kill very many Israeli's. IDF's aircraft using missiles and laser guided bombs effectively guarantee the deaths of anyone in the targeted area.

The IDF accepts that they WILL kill children when they act.

The Hezbollah accepts that they MAY kill children when they act.

In practice it amounts to 20 or so dead Lebanese kids to every dead Israeli kid. Not an equivalency.
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breakaleg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 01:35 AM
Response to Reply #48
55. 2nd that. whether the deaths are caused intentionally or with wanton
disregard for human life, it's the same thing.

Bombing civilian areas makes it intentional. After they bombed the roads (aka escape routes) and the gas stations (rendering all cars useless) how exactly did they expect these civilians to leave? Oh, and the few that did leave, some of their envoys were bombed on the way out!

How can this be interpreted as anything BUT intentional?
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mtice Donating Member (114 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 01:37 AM
Response to Reply #55
59. Please stop avoiding the question
The question is not whether Israelis intentionally released the bomb that dropped on the building. Nobody pushed the trigger accidentally, let's grant that for the willingly obtuse. The question is whether it was their intention to kill innocent children. Is it your belief that that was their intention, or not?
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breakaleg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 01:41 AM
Response to Reply #59
66. I did answer it. In the eyes of the law, they are equally
responsible whether it was intentional, or by wanton disregard.

I certainly think they didn't and don't care one way or another. I think they would have bombed regardless and apologized later. That certainly has been evident throughout this mess.
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mtice Donating Member (114 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 02:19 AM
Response to Reply #66
120. In the eyes of the law
the responsibility for the deaths of civilians as a result of Israeli retaliation against Hezbollah attacks sits entirely on the shoulders of Hezbollah. Maybe you make up your own law to fit your prejudices, but according to the ruling body of law on the subject, the Geneva Conventions, Hezbollah conducting military activities is undisputably a war crime.

This is silly, even discussing such a thing. Hezbollah knows no law but its own desires, and not you nor anyone else who has argued this with me tonight has made even the most remote suggestion that Hezbollah ought to be held accountable to law. In fact, some on this thread have actually argued that since they are not officially a state, they are rightly unaccountable for anything they might do!
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Erika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 01:43 AM
Response to Reply #59
68. Their stated belief is collateral damage is unavoidable
Take it from them.
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Porcupine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 01:56 AM
Response to Reply #41
91. I believe that the IDF accepts that it will kill more children than
Hezbollah soldiers when they target apartment blocks. Statistically this is the pattern of deaths in apartment block bombings by IDF forces.

So yes, it is their intent to kill children.

Conversly Hezzbollah accepts that they will kill a smaller number of Israeli children than adult Israeli citizens (they do not distinguish between civilian and soldier to my knowledge) when they launch rockets into Israel. Again the evidence bears this out.

So the Hezzbollah also intends to kill children.

The Israeli's are using far more accurate and effective weapons than Hezzbollah. They KNOW they are going to kill more kids. With the Hezzbollah it is likely they will kill some, but not as many.

Both sides are commiting war crimes. A cease fire would be a start.

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Karenca Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 01:03 AM
Response to Reply #9
17. In 1953, Stalin was preparing for a mass deportation of Soviet Jews
to the Siberian wastelands north of China.
For the remainder of the Soviet period, Jews faced a range of state-sponsored anti-Semitism. Universities were allowed to accept only a small number of Jews and many jobs were closed to them.
After its founding in 1948, Israel's emergence as a close Western ally led to the persecution of many Soviet Jews. The few token synagogues still in operation were under open police surveillance.

What did you say about Russian Jews?
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manic expression Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 01:11 AM
Response to Reply #17
21. Didn't the Russian Church
Edited on Mon Aug-07-06 01:11 AM by manic expression
get screwed over by Stalin as well?

on edit: Didn't EVERYONE get screwed over by Stalin?
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Karenca Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 01:25 AM
Response to Reply #21
35. I am not defending the Israeli government policies.
I disagree with them. I believe they are American NeoCon puppets.
And I believe that America is NO friend to Israel, and
is hurting Israel.

But there has never been a group of people so
persecuted and driven out of every land they have
inhabited throughout history as the jews:

Persecution of Jews by Roman Pagans

70: The Roman Army destroyed Jerusalem, killed over 1 million Jews and took about 100,000 into slavery and captivity.
113: Jews in Cyprus, Cyrene, Egypt and Mesopotamia revolted against the Roman Empire. This caused "the death of several hundreds of thousands of Romans and Jews." Judaism was no longer recognized as a legal religion.
132: Bar Kochba led a hopeless three-year revolt against the Roman Empire. Many Jews had accepted him as the Messiah. About a half-million Jews were killed; thousands were sold into slavery or taken into captivity. The rest were exiled from Palestine and scattered throughout the known world in what is called the "Diaspora."
135: Serious Roman persecution of the Jews began. They were forbidden, upon pain of death, from practicing circumcision, reading the Torah, eating unleavened bread at Passover, etc. A temple dedicated to the Roman pagan god Jupiter was erected on temple mountain in Jerusalem. A temple of Venus was built on Golgotha, just outside the city.
200: Roman Emperor Severus forbade religious conversions to Judaism.
Anti-Judaism: Persecution of Followers of the Jewish Religion:

Initial persecution of Jews was along religious lines. Persecution would cease if the person converted to Christianity.

306: The church Synod of Elvira banned marriages, sexual intercourse and community contacts between Christians and Jews.
315: Constantine published the Edict of Milan which extended religious tolerance to Christians. Jews lost many rights with this edict. They were no longer permitted to live in Jerusalem, or to proselytize.
325: The Council of Nicea decided to separate the celebration of Easter from the Jewish Passover. They stated: "For it is unbecoming beyond measure that on this holiest of festivals we should follow the customs of the Jews. Henceforth let us have nothing in common with this odious people..."
337: Christian Emperor Constantius created a law which made the marriage of a Jewish man to a Christian punishable by death.
339: Converting to Judaism became a criminal offense.
367 - 376: St. Hilary of Poitiers referred to Jews as a perverse people who God has cursed forever. St. Ephroem refers to synagogues as brothels.
379-395: Emperor Theodosius the Great permitted the destruction of synagogues if it served a religious purpose. Christianity became the state religion of the Roman Empire at this time.
380: The bishop of Milan was responsible for the burning of a synagogue; he referred to it as "an act pleasing to God."
415: The Bishop of Alexandria, St. Cyril, expelled the Jews from that Egyptian city.
415: St. Augustine wrote "The true image of the Hebrew is Judas Iscariot, who sells the Lord for silver. The Jew can never understand the Scriptures and forever will bear the guilt for the death of Jesus."
418: St. Jerome, who created the Vulgate translation of the Bible wrote of a synagogue: "If you call it a brothel, a den of vice, the Devil's refuge, Satan's fortress, a place to deprave the soul, an abyss of every conceivable disaster or whatever you will, you are still saying less than it deserves."
489 - 519: Christian mobs destroyed the synagogues in Antioch, Daphne (near Antioch) and Ravenna.
528: Emperor Justinian (527-564) passed the Justinian Code. It prohibited Jews from building synagogues, reading the Bible in Hebrew, assemble in public, celebrate Passover before Easter, and testify against Christians in court.
535: The "Synod of Claremont decreed that Jews could not hold public office or have authority over Christians."
538: The 3rd and 4th Councils of Orleans prohibited Jews from appearing in public during the Easter season. Prohibited marriages between Christians and Jews. Prohibited Christians from converting to Judaism.
561: The bishop of Uzes expelled Jews from his diocese in France.
612: Jews were not allowed to own land, to be farmers or enter certain trades.
613: Very serious persecution begain in Spain. Jews were given the options of either leaving Spain or converting to Christianity. Jewish children over 6 years of age were taken from their parents and given a Christian education
694: The 17th Church Council of Toledo, Spain defined Jews as the serfs of the prince. This was based, in part, on the beliefs by Chrysostom, Origen, Jerome, and other Church Fathers that God punished the Jews with perpetual slavery because of their responsibility for the execution of Jesus.
722: Leo III outlawed Judaism. Jews were baptized against their will.
855: Jews were exiled from Italy
1050: The Synod of Narbonne prohibited Christians from living in the homes of Jews.
1078: "Pope Gregory VII decreed that Jews could not hold office or be superiors to Christians."
1078: The Synod of Gerona forced Jews to pay church taxes
1096: The First Crusade was launched in this year. Although the prime goal of the crusades was to liberate Jerusalem from the Muslims, Jews were a second target. As the soldiers passed through Europe on the way to the Holy Land, large numbers of Jews were challenged: "Christ-killers, embrace the Cross or die!" 12,000 Jews in the Rhine Valley alone were killed in the first Crusade. This behavior continued for 8 additional crusades until the 9th in 1272.
1099: The Crusaders forced all of the Jews of Jerusalem into a central synagogue and set it on fire. Those who tried to escape were forced back into the burning building.
1121: Jews were exiled from Flanders (now part of present-day Belgium)
1130: Some Jews in London allegedly killed a sick man. The Jewish people in the city were required to pay 1 million marks as compensation.
1146: The Second Crusade began. A French Monk, Rudolf, called for the destruction of the Jews.
1179: Canon 24 of the Third Lateran Council stated: "Jews should be slaves to Christians and at the same time treated kindly due of humanitarian considerations." Canon 26 stated that "the testimony of Christians against Jews is to be preferred in all causes where they use their own witnesses against Christians." (4)
1180: The French King of France, Philip Augustus, arbitrarily seized all Jewish property and expelled the Jews from the country. There was no legal justification for this action. They were allowed to sell all movable possessions, but their land and houses were stolen by the king.
1189: Jews were persecuted in England. The Crown claimed all Jewish possessions. Most of their houses were burned.
1205: Pope Innocent III wrote to the archbishops of Sens and Paris that "the Jews, by their own guilt, are consigned to perpetual servitude because they crucified the Lord...As slaves rejected by God, in whose death they wickedly conspire, they shall by the effect of this very action, recognize themselves as the slaves of those whom Christ's death set free..."
1215: The Fourth Lateran Council approved canon laws requiring that "Jews and Muslims shall wear a special dress." They also had to wear a badge in the form of a ring. This was to enable them to be easily distinguished from Christians. This practice later spread to other countries.
1227: The Synod of Narbonne required Jews to wear an oval badge. This requirement was reinstalled during the 1930's by Hitler, who changed the oval badge to a Star of David.
1229: The Spanish inquisition starts. Later, in 1252, Pope Innocent IV authorizes the use of torture by the Inquisitors.
1261: Duke Henry III of Brabant, Belgium, stated in his will that "Jews...must be expelled from Brabant and totally annihilated so that not a single one remains, except those who are willing to trade, like all other tradesmen, without money-lending and usury."
1267: The Synod of Vienna ordered Jews to wear horned hats. Thomas Aquinas said that Jews should live in perpetual servitude.
1290: Jews are exiled from England. About 16,000 left the country.
1298: Jews were persecuted in Austria, Bavaria and Franconia. 140 Jewish communities were destroyed; more than 100,000 Jews were killed over a 6 month period.
1306: 100,000 Jews are exiled from France. They left with only the clothes on their backs, and food for only one day.
1320: 40,000 French shepherds went to Palestine on the Shepherd Crusade. On the way, 140 Jewish communities were destroyed.
1321: In Guienne, France, Jews were accused of having incited criminals to poison wells. 5,000 Jews were burned alive, at the stake.
1347 +: Ships from the Far East carried rats into Mediterranean ports. The rats carried the Black Death. At first, fleas spread the disease from the rats to humans. As the plague worsened, the germs spread from human to human. In five years, the death toll had reached 25 million. England took 2 centuries for its population levels to recover from the plague. People looked around for someone to blame. They noted that a smaller percentage of Jews than Christians caught the disease. This was undoubtedly due to the Jewish sanitary and dietary laws, which had been preserved from Old Testament times. Rumors circulated that Satan was protecting the Jews and that they were paying back the Devil by poisoning wells used by Christians. The solution was to torture, murder and burn the Jews. "In Bavaria...12,000 Jews...perished; in the small town of Erfurt...3,000; Rue Brulée...2,000 Jews; near Tours, an immense trench was dug, filled with blazing wood and in a single day 160 Jews were burned." In Strausberg 2,000 Jews were burned. In Maintz 6,000 were killed...; in Worms 400..."
1354: 12,000 Jews were executed in Toledo.
1374: An epidemic of possession broke out in the lower Rhine region of what is now Germany. People were seen "dancing, jumping and wild raving." This was triggered by enthusiastic revels on St. John's Day - an Christianized version of an ancient Pagan seasonal day of celebration which was still observed by the populace. The epidemic spread throughout the Rhine and in much of the Netherlands and Germany. Crowds of 500 or more dancers would be overcome together. Exorcisms were tried, but failed. Pilgrimages to the shrine of St. Vitus were tried, but this only seemed to exacerbate the problem. Finally, the rumor spread that God was angry because Christians had been excessively tolerant towards the Jews. God had cursed Europe as He did Saul when he showed mercy towards God's enemies in the Old Testament. Jews "were plundered, tortured and murdered by tens of thousands." The epidemic finally burned itself out two centuries later, in the late 16th century.
1391 : Jewish persecutions begin in Seville and in 70 other Jewish communities throughout Spain.
1394 : Jews were exiled, for the second time, from France.
1431 +: The Council of Basel "forbade Jews to go to universities, prohibited them from acting as agents in the conclusion of contracts between Christians, and required that they attend church sermons."
1453 : The Franciscan monk, Capistrano, persuaded the King of Poland to terminate all Jewish civil rights.
1478: Spanish Jews had been heavily persecuted from the 14th century. Many had converted to Christianity. The Spanish Inquisition was set up by the Church in order to detect insincere conversions. Laws were passed that prohibited the descendants of Jews or Muslims from attending university, joining religious orders, holding public office, or entering any of a long list of professions.
1492 : Jews were given the choice of being baptized as Christians or be banished from Spain. 300,000 left Spain penniless. Many migrated to Turkey, where they found tolerance among the Muslims. Others converted to Christianity but often continued to practice Judaism in secret.
1492 (Jan) 100,00 Jews expelled and 3000 killed in Sicily (a Spanish province since 1411). 1400 years of Jewish history disappears almost overnight.
1497: Jews were banished from Portugal. 20,000 left the country rather than be baptized as Christians.
1516: The Governor of the Republic of Venice decided that Jews would be permitted to live only in one area of the city. It was located in the South Girolamo parish and was called the "Ghetto Novo." This was the first ghetto in Europe. Hitler made use of the concept in the 1930's.
1517: The Venice Ghetto was established.
1523: Martin Luther distributed his essay "That Jesus Was Born a Jew. " He hoped that large numbers of Jews would convert to Christianity. They didn't, and he began to write and preach hatred against them. Luther has been condemned in recent years for being extremely antisemitic. The charge has some merit; however he was probably typical of most Christians during his era.
1540 : Jews were exiled from Naples.
1543 : Martin Luther, distressed by the reluctance of Jews to convert to Christianity wrote "On the Jews and their lies, On Shem Hamphoras" :
"What then shall we Christians do with this damned, rejected race of Jews?

First, their synagogues or churches should be set on fire,...
Secondly, their homes should likewise be broken down and destroyed... They ought to be put under one roof or in a stable, like Gypsies.
Thirdly, they should be deprived of their prayer books and Talmuds in which such idolatry, lies, cursing and blasphemy are taught.
Fourthly, their rabbis must be forbidden under threat of death to teach any more...
Fifthly, passport and traveling privileges should be absolutely forbidden to the Jews...
Sixthly, they ought to be stopped from usury. All their cash and valuables of silver and gold ought to be taken from them and put aside for safe keeping...
Seventhly, let the young and strong Jews and Jewesses be given the flail, the axe, the hoe, the spade, the distaff, and spindle and let them earn their bread by the sweat of their noses as in enjoined upon Adam's children...
To sum up, dear princes and nobles who have Jews in your domains, if this advice of mine does not suit you, then find a better one so that you and we may all be free of this insufferable devilish burden - the Jews."

1550: Jews were exiled from Genoa and Venice.
1555-JUL-12: A Roman Catholic Papal bull, "Cum nimis absurdum," required Jews to wear badges, and live in ghettos. They were not allowed to own property outside the ghetto. Living conditions were dreadful: over 3,000 people were forced to live in about 8 acres of land. Women had to wear a yellow veil or scarf; men had to wear a piece of yellow cloth on their hat.
1582: Jews were expelled from Holland
Antisemitism: Persecution of Jews along Racial Lines:

Previous persecution was directed at believers in Judaism. Jews could escape oppression by converting to Christianity. Subsequent attacks against Jews were racially motivated; the Jewish people were viewed as a separate race.

1806: A French Jesuit Priest, Abbe Barruel, had written a treatise blaming the Masonic Order for the French Revolution. He later issued a letter alleging that Jews, not the Masons were the guilty party. This triggered a belief in an international Jewish conspiracy in Germany, Poland and some other European countries later in the 19th century.
1846 - 1878: Pope Pius IX restored all of the previous restrictions against the Jews within the Vatican state. All Jews under Papal control were confined to Rome's ghetto - the last one in Europe until the Nazi era. On 2000-SEP-3, Pope John Paul II beautified Pius IX; this is the last step before sainthood. He explained: "Beatifying a son of the church does not celebrate particular historic choices that he has made, but rather points him out for imitation and for veneration for his virtue."
1858: Edgardo Mortara was kidnapped, at the age of six, from his Jewish family by Roman Catholic officials after they found out that a maid had secretly baptized him. He was not returned to his family but was raised a Catholic. He eventually became a priest.
1873: The term "antisemitism" is first used in a pamphlet by Wilhelm Marr called "Jewry's Victory over Teutonism."
1881: Alexander II of Russia was assassinated by radicals. The Jews were blamed. About 200 individual pogroms against the Jews followed. ("Pogrom" is a Russian word meaning "devastation" or "riot." In Russia, a pogrom was typically a mob riot against Jewish individuals, shops, homes or businesses. They were often supported and even organized by the government.) Thousands of Jews became homeless and impoverished. The few who were charged with offenses generally received very light sentences.
1893: "...anti-Semitic parties won sixteen seats in the German Reichstag."
1894: Captain Alfred Dreyfus, an officer on the French general staff, was convicted of treason. The evidence against him consisted of a piece of paper from his wastebasket with another person's handwriting, and papers forged by antisemitic officers. He received a life sentence on Devil's Island, off the coast of South America. The French government was aware that a Major Esterhazy was actually guilty. (The church, government and army united to suppress the truth. Writer Emile Zola and politician Jean Jaurès fought for justice and human rights. After 10 years, the French government fell and Drefus was declared totally innocent. The Dreyfus Affair was world-wide news for years. It motivated Journalist Theodor Herzl to write a book in 1896: "The Jewish State: A Modern Solution to the Jewish Question." The book led to the founding of the Zionist movement which fought for a Jewish Homeland. A half century later, the state of Israel was born.
1903: At Easter, government agents organized an anti-Jewish pogrom in Kishinev, Moldova, Russia. The local newspaper published a series of inflammatory articles. A Christian child was discovered murdered and a young Christian woman at the Jewish Hospital committed suicide. Jews were blamed for the deaths. Violence ensured. The 5,000 soldiers in the town did nothing. When the smoke cleared, 49 Jews had been killed, 500 were injured; 700 homes looted and destroyed, 600 businesses and shops looted, 2000 families left homeless. Later, it was discovered that the child had been murdered by its relatives and the suicide was unrelated to the Jews.
1905: The Okhrana, the Russian secret police in the reign of Czar Nicholas II, converted an earlier antisemitic novel into a document called the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion." It was published privately in 1897. A Russian Orthodox priest, Sergius Nilus, published them publicly in 1905. It is promoted as the record of "secret rabbinical conferences whose aim was to subjugate and exterminate the Christians." The Protocols were used by the Okhrana in a propaganda campaign that was associated with massacres of the Jews. These were the Czarist Pogroms of 1905.
1915: 600,000 Jews were forcibly moved from the western borders of Russia towards the interior. About 100,000 died of exposure or starvation.
1917: "In the civil war following the Bolshevik Revolution of 1917, the reactionary White Armies made extensive use of the Protocols to incite widespread slaughters of Jews." 200,000 Jews were murdered in the Ukraine.
1920: The Protocols reach England and the United States. They are exposed as a forgery, but are widely circulated. Henry Ford sponsored a study of international activities of Jews. This led to a series of antisemitic articles in the Dearborn Independent, which were published in a book, "The International Jew."
1920: The defeat of Germany in World War I and the continuing economic difficulties were blamed in that country on the "Jewish influence." One antisemitic poster has been preserved from that era. It shows a German, presumably Christian woman, a male Jew with distorted facial features, a coffin and the word "Deutschland" (Germany)
1920's, 1930's: Hitler wrote in Mein Kampf: "Today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord." The Protocols are used by the Nazis to whip up public hatred of the Jews in the 1930's. Widespread pogroms occur in Greece, Hungary, Mexico, Poland, Rumania, and the USSR. Radio programs by many conservative American clergy, both Roman Catholic and Protestant, frequently attacked Jews. Reverend Fr. Charles E Coughlin was one of the best known. "In the 1930's, radio audiences heard him rail against the threat of Jews to America's economy and defend Hitler's treatment of Jews as justified in the fight against communism." Other conservative Christian leaders, such as Frank Norris and John Straton supported the Jews.
Discrimination against Jews in North America is widespread. Many universities set limits on the maximum number of Jewish students that they would accept. Harvard accepted all students on the basis of merit until after World War I when the percentage of Jewish students approached 15%. At that time they installed an informal quota system. In 1941, Princeton had fewer than 2% Jews in their student body. Jews were routinely barred from country clubs, prestigious neighborhoods, etc.

1933: Hitler took power in Germany. Jews "were barred from civil service, legal professions and universities, were not allowed to teach in schools and could not be editors of newspapers." (3) Two years later, Jews were no longer considered citizens.
1934: Various laws were enacted in Germany to force Jews out of schools and professions.
1935: The Nazis passed the Nuremberg Laws restricting citizenship to those of "German or related blood." Jews became stateless.
1936: Cardinal Hloud of Poland urged Catholics to boycott Jewish businesses.
1938: On NOV-9, the Nazi government in Germany sent storm troopers, the SS and the Hitler Youth on a pogrom that killed 91 Jews, injured hundreds, burned 177 synagogues and looted 7,500 Jewish stores. Broken glass could be seen everywhere; the glass gave this event its name of Kristallnacht, the Night of Broken Glass.
1938: Hitler brought back century-old church law, ordering all Jews to wear a yellow Star of David as identification. A few hundred thousand Jews are allowed to leave Germany after they give all of their assets to the government.
1939: The Holocaust, the systematic extermination of Jews in Germany begins. The process only ended in 1945 with the conclusion of World War II. Approximately 6 million Jews (1.5 million of them children), 400 thousand Roma (Gypsies) and others were slaughtered. Some were killed by death squads; others were slowly killed in trucks with carbon monoxide; others were gassed in large groups in Auschwitz, Dacau, Sobibor, Treblinka and other extermination camps. Officially, the holocaust was described by the Nazis as subjecting Jews "to special treatment" or as a "solution of the Jewish question." Gold taken from the teeth of the victims was recycled; hair was used in the manufacture of mattresses. In the Buchenwald extermination camp, lampshades were made out of human skin; however, this appears to be an isolated incident. A rumor spread that Jewish corpses were routinely converted into soap. However, the story appears to be false.
1940: The Vichy government of France collaborated with Nazi Germany by freezing about 80,000 Jewish bank accounts. During the next four years, they deported about 76,000 Jews to Nazi death camps; only about 2,500 survived. It was only in 1995 that a French president, Jacques Chirac, "was able to admit that the state bore a heavy share of responsibility in the mass round-ups and deportations of Jews, as well as in the property and asset seizures that were carried out with the active help of the Vichy regime."
1941: The Holocaust Museum in Washington DC estimates that 13,000 Jews died on 1941-JUN-19 during a pogrom in Bucharest, Romania. It was ordered by the pro-Nazi Romanian regime of Marshal Ion Antonescu. The current government has admitted that this atrocity happened, but most Romanians continue to deny that the Jews were killed on orders from their government.
1942: From JUL-28 to 31, almost 18,000 inhabitants of the Minsk ghetto in what is now Belarus were exterminated. This was in addition to 5,000 to 15,000 who had been massacred in earlier pogroms in that city. This was just one of many such pogroms during World War II.
1946: Even though World War II ended the year before, antisemitic pogroms continued, particularly in Poland.
Persecution of Jewish Physicians by the Church

Medicine in Europe during the Middle Ages found itself restricted by the Christian Church. The church taught that it was irreligious to seek a natural cure from a physician when one could obtain supernatural help from a priest. Some church leaders criticized medical schools because they taught that diseases and disorders came from natural means and not from the evil efforts of Satan.

With medicine in such ill repute among Christians, much of the leadership by the 10th century was provided by Jews and Muslim scholars. Jews were largely responsible for founding the medical Schools at Salerno and Montpellier in the 10th century.

Pope Eugene IV, Nicholas V and Calixtus III forbade Christians from using the services of a Jewish physician. The Trullanean Council in the 8th century; Béziers Council & Alby Council in the 13th century; Avignon council & Salamanca Council in the 14th century, the Synod of Bamberg in the 15th century; the Council of Avignon in the 16th century, etc. also ordered Christians to not seek healing from Jewish physicians and surgeons. This continued even into the 17th century when the city of Hall in Würtemberg (in what is now Germany) granted some privileges to a Jewish physician "on account of his admirable experience and skill." The clergy of Hall complained that "it were better to die with Christ than to be cured by a Jew doctor aided by the devil." (17)
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manic expression Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 01:53 AM
Response to Reply #35
83. You'll have to forgive me
for not reading the entire post. I'll do my best to address it, however.

The fact is that many groups have suffered persecution for ages. The gypsies come to mind. If you think for one second that one group's persecution is worse than another's equal amount of persecution, you are misled.

The Romans, the first example, were conquerers. You either accepted their terms or were put to the sword. Judea was given VERY reasonable treatment by the Romans, they were allowed to have their religion, they were not expected to pray to the emperor, they were treated relatively well. The zealots didn't like this and fought the Romans, much like many other groups (Gauls, Parthians, Britons, Germans the list goes on), and so there was much bloodshed. The Romans are not a good example and could even be considered an exception to the list of "persecution". That's just my opinion on one part of your post.
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Karenca Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 02:31 AM
Response to Reply #83
132. Well, if you do read it
you will read the atrocities afflicted upon the Jews by the Romans.


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Porcupine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 02:35 AM
Response to Reply #35
135. So THAT makes it ok to kill Lebanese kids, steal land and run over
unarmed protesters with bulldozers. I'm sorry I don't get your point.

Why is the evil done by Israel excused by the evil done by others? The Torah is fairly clear that anothers evil does not excuse your actions if they too are evil.

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Balbus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 01:16 AM
Response to Reply #9
26. Yeah, no shit, them Jews had it so easy throughout history...
:eyes:

And I can't believe you actually used Russian Jews as an example of "the good life." Now it's my turn to say "WTF are you talking about?"
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manic expression Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 01:19 AM
Response to Reply #26
30. Good thing no other genocides or persecutions have ever happened
oh, wait, nevermind.
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rockymountaindem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 01:26 AM
Response to Reply #30
40. Yeah, and Jews didn't avoid going the way of the Aztecs by
half measures.
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manic expression Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 01:37 AM
Response to Reply #40
60. Well,
I think the Spanish did quite the same thing to the Jewish population in Spain.
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Karenca Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 01:27 AM
Response to Reply #30
42. Of course there were
but never in history anything like this:

http://www.shofars.org/persecution/default.htm
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Erika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 01:28 AM
Response to Reply #30
43. We "civilized" the Indians thru genocide
and gave Africans a new life here thru slavery.

It's all in the perception.
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manic expression Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 01:38 AM
Response to Reply #43
61. That was the insane rationalization
I'm sorry but I'm not quite sure what your point is, however.
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Erika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 01:47 AM
Response to Reply #61
75. My point is there can always be a rationale for war & persecution
Edited on Mon Aug-07-06 01:48 AM by Erika
insane or not.
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manic expression Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 02:08 AM
Response to Reply #75
107. Sadly true n/t
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breakaleg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 12:47 AM
Response to Original message
11. If this had happened to me or my loved ones, I'd find it impossible
to hurt another human being. After all, having suffered myself or witnessed others' suffering, I, more than anyone, would know how it felt.

I would have learned my lesson.
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Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 01:56 AM
Response to Original message
89. Anne Frank somehow managed to
So with that in mind, I figure that just being Jewish doesn't give me an excuse to distrust humanity.

I have to say, though, that from a historical perspective I look back at Germany's acceptance of the holocaust and find it truly amazing that people could just be convinced to disregard human life like that. Furthermore, it scares me even more because I believe that the United States could have been capable of the same thing. What if Franklin Roosevelt hadn't been elected in 1932? What if instead, we had elected somebody who told us that the solution to the depression was fascism and genocide? I think that the only reason that we got the New Deal and Germany got the Holocaust was because we got Franklin Roosevelt and Germany got Adolf Hitler.
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Erika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 02:01 AM
Response to Reply #89
95. How about Hiroshima and Nagasaki
We did that.
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Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 02:08 AM
Response to Reply #95
104. Yes we did, and I still wonder if it was the right decision
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Moderator DU Moderator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 02:40 AM
Response to Original message
138. Locking
This has become a flame fest.
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