Israel has asked Bush admin to speed delivery of short-range cluster bombs

August 10, 2006

NYT:

Israel has asked the Bush administration to speed delivery of short-range antipersonnel rockets armed with cluster munitions, which it could use to strike Hezbollah missile sites in Lebanon, two American officials said Thursday.

The request for M-26 artillery rockets, which are fired in barrages and carry hundreds of grenade-like bomblets that scatter and explode over a broad area, is likely to be approved shortly, along with other arms, a senior official said.

But some State Department officials have sought to delay the approval because of concerns over the likelihood of civilian casualties, and the diplomatic repercussions. The rockets, while they would be very effective against hidden missile launchers, officials say, are fired by the dozen and could be expected to cause civilian casualties if used against targets in populated areas.

full report: http://www.warandpiece.com/blogdirs/004736.html

These will be used with reckless indifference, which is the best one can say about current Israeli policies.

Why are so many people here against that? :shrug:

without any significant effect on the ability of Hizbollah to launch rockets into Israel. How many more should we stand by and watch Israel kill before we call them on their criminal incompetence? What sense does it make for them to point to war crimes committed by Hizbollah when they are actively disregarding the Geneva Protocol 1 provisions in Article 51 and in Article 57 as they launch these dubious airstrikes into populated areas of Lebanon, as they destroy life sustaining infrastructure, as they block aid and medical care from reaching those fleeing, as they impede the free movement of unarmed civilians in their own country? How can they expect anyone to take their complaints about Hizbollah's crimes seriously? I grieve for the loss of innocent lives on both sides of this conflict. I don't want to know anymore about who started what when. I want them to stop the madness now, before they create even more new tragedies which will create an new generation of reprisals and recriminations. Its time for the leaders and their supporters to begin to think in terms of reconciliation rather than continue to hold on to these false notions of victory.

What Israel is doing/ has done in this conflict will not make Israel more secure. The violence against the civilians is antithetical to that. There's been enough. I don't believe more weapons and more assaults will help. I think Israel has demonstrated that they can't be trusted with the responsibility for disarming Hizbollah. They've killed too many innocents. They shouldn't be given free reign to continue.

and then appeal for sympathy.

Why are people dumb enough to fall for it? :shrug:

You must be failing to distinguish between the combatants and the civilians. That's Israel's problem. They have not distinguished between the Lebanese civilians and their target (which they claim is a military one). Indiscriminate attacks on civilian areas resulted in over 700 deaths. Those are who I sympathize with.

So much for the dumb . . . shit.

until then, the blood will continue to flow

why do you broadbrush so much?

Clearly, the IDF isn't killing enough children. :puke:

Why are so many here cheering them on? :shrug:

otherwise, enough with the smear.

:eyes:

Plenty more around if you're paying attention.

about the imbalance of power into 'support of Hizbollah.'

why don't you ask that poster if they 'support Hizbollah' instead of the scattershot accusation?

The IDF is far more 'successful' in killing children, women, and the elderly - both in numbers and in proportions. I guess that's the advantage of more accurate weapons, huh?

Hezbollah. Sounds kind of one sided.

The M26 is the rocket load for the MLRS. Unlike the Katyusha system, its fairly accurate, about like that of most other artilerly. One of its primary uses is counter battery fire, which is to say, shooting at the other guys artilery. From a tactical perspective, this is an ideal use of the MLRS and the M-26.

I am not getting into the issues associated with cluster munitions in built up areas (which is clearly a concern), but this does make good tactical sense.

The request is for M-26 artillery rockets, which are fired in barrages and carry hundreds of grenade-like bomblets that scatter and explode over a broad area.

Israel has been directing their attacks in populated areas.

That's what this is about. Not some symposium on the rudiments of weaponry. This is about our country's complicity in the 'collateral' killing of Lebanese civilians caught in the way of Israel's airstrikes. Over 700 now.

We hurry the 'precision' missiles which, when fired by the Israelis, couldn't manage to avoid slaughtering UN members among the hundreds of other unarmed victims in their path. Britain supplies the helicopter parts for the birds the Israelis use to prosecute their raids on populated areas. Now we are asked to hurry more weapons as Israel continues their unbridled assaults.

Death Merchants.

that due to delays may take two or three strikes? If counter battery strikes are going to occur, the MLRS may be the lesser of the two evils.

Since you seem so concerned about Death Merchants, at another location there is a discussion going about the reason the low death count is not even lower is because the US has not sold the IDF out best stuff for air-ground surveillance and monitoring, or actively supported them. It actually makes some sense.

No one does air to ground like the US. We have the best airborne surveillance out there. Look up what JSTARS can do, as well as Global Hawk, Pioneer, Predator, Satellites...its a pretty impressive. Then add the B-52 as the flying bomb dispenser in the sky and the GiG to tie it all together. The net effect is the ability to find launch sites being set up and track crews doing the shoot and scoot maneuver. It would dramatically reduce the ability of the crews to survive to launch a second strike.

The politics of direct US involvement at that level would have been massive, but the overall death count as well as infrastructure damage could well have been lowered, in some cases dramatically.

If you can find a way to tactically fuck an MLRS, please try. Its as ugly piece of equipment as Ann Coulter, and just as nasty if you are on the receiving end.


Edit: Spelling

ceasefire. not escalation.

I love that argument you're using. Because we refused to give them more technology they were FORCED to use weapons which were less accurate. We FORCED them to fire in these populated areas huh? Why did they need to fire into these areas? They flattened most of them without any significant effect on the ability of Hizbollah to launch rockets into Israel. I think their 'intelligence' that there were military targets in the populated areas they attacked was bullshit. I think they can't be trusted to prosecute the disarming and neutralization of Hizbollah. They've proved themselves criminally incompetent.

Then there's the other issue of the risks they exposed their own soldiers to with their recklessness and zeal to attack Lebanon.

You want a way to fuck an MLRS? Negotiate with Syria about the Golan Heights and they'll talk to Hizbollah. Make peace. How many more Lebanese have to be killed before Israel's satisfied. They will not be able to disarm and neutralize Hizbollah by force without exterminating hundreds more Lebanese. They have to accept a political solution. More weapons is not what Israel needs to do that.

Note also that Hezbollah has refused to disarm, even to the government of Lebanon. They are in fact an illegal militia without legitimate standing. The are supplied arms and funds from Syria and Iran, without which they would cease to exist.

From what has been published the rocket sites are located by fire finder radars. The issue is not that they have the right location (they do), its whether or not the shooters are still there. That is the crux of the "The US did not do enough" argument. Kill the shooter, and the rockets don't launch. Not sure I agree with all of it, but from a technical perspective, it has considerable merit. The US is much better equipped to monitor areas surreptitiously and destroy irregular forces before they know they are even being observed.

If there was "criminal incompetence" on the part of the IDF, it was the assumption that they could bomb most of the Hezbollah away. Clearly the willingness of Hezbollah to have others killed was underestimated. Even so, the IAF has done a reasonable job of holding down casualties given the amount of ordinance that has been used. Yes there have been a lot of deaths, but not nearly as many as would have been expected. For those making the asinine claim that the IAF is targeting civilians, anyone knowledgeable knows that if they were, the casualties would be in the 10s of thousands.

It should also be noted that the Israeli government may be holding back a bit from the new push that was to have started. It comes from the J-post and Faux, so it is suspect. I expect things will come to a head over the weekend, one way or the other.

Thr above does not mean that the IDF is blameless. I think there is much fault to be found with them, but its not a binary situation. More than enought guilt and blood to go around.

It doesn't matter whether they were to disarm to other authorities -- this is a red herring and doesn't excuse invading another country on false pretexts. And the number of innocent civlian casualties is because apartment complexes, civilian homes, businesses and public areas have been targetted -- by precision munitions. You figure out who intended what.

would be much higher. PGMs have kept the count down considerably. I am not trivializing the deaths, just point out that it could have need much more.

I would also remind people to look to the Sinai. There is no illegal militia shelling Israel, there is no kidnapping. The border is peaceful, calm, and prosperous. There is a clue there...

Any claim that Hezbollah is a defensive force is specious at best. They are an illegal militia that has refused to disarm and turn over control of southern Lebanon to the national government. They run by their own rules, including Sharia law.

That does not excuse the actions of the IDF in their entirety, but when you poke at a lion, expect to be clawed. Unfortunately the people really poking at Israel is Iran and Syria. Hezbollah is their paid proxy. Without arms and funds from outside, Hezbollah would be gone, and Lebanon much better off.

but it's just cold rhetoric. The suggestion that it is to the Lebanese civilian's advantage that more weren't killed because Israel wasn't deliberately mowing them down is just an outlandish excuse for bald negligence. These unarmed civilians who voted for the Lebanese government, not Hizbollah, didn't poke anyone. They didn't deserve to die from such disregard for their worth.

and they get to continue shelling Israel? The bloodshed started with Hezbollah, and will stop when they stop firing into Israel. Admittedly that is unlikely. Elsewhere it has been posted that Nasrallah has called on all Arab to get out of Haifa...doesn't sound like he or his Syrian/Iranian masters have any interest in peace.

Look at the Egytian border. No shelling, no kidnapping, no fighting. Peace and prosperity. Its a clue...

just because Hizbollah may be using civilians as a human shield,


Article 51: Protection of the Civilian Population

1. The civilian population and individual civilians shall enjoy general protection against dangers arising from military operations. To give effect to this protection, the following rules, which are additional to other applicable rules of international law, shall be observed in all circumstances.

2. The civilian population as such, as well as individual civilians, shall not be the object of attack. Acts or threats of violence the primary purpose of which is to spread terror among the civilian population are prohibited.

3. Civilians shall enjoy the protection afforded by this Section, unless and for such time as they take a direct part in hostilities.

4. Indiscriminate attacks are prohibited. Indiscriminate attacks are:

1. those which are not directed at a specific military objective;

2. those which employ a method or means of combat which cannot be directed at a specific military objective; or

3. those which employ a method or means of combat the effects of which cannot be limited as required by this Protocol; and consequently, in each such case, are of a nature to strike military objectives and civilians or civilian objects without distinction.

5. Among others, the following types of attacks are to be considered as indiscriminate:

1. an attack by bombardment by any methods or means which treats as a single military objective a number of clearly separated and distinct military objectives located in a city, town, village or other area containing a similar concentration of civilians or civilian objects; and

2. an attack which may be expected to cause incidental loss of civilian life, injury to civilians, damage to civilian objects, or a combination thereof, which would be excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated.

6. Attacks against the civilian population or civilians by way of reprisals are prohibited.


here's your provision about human shields:


7. The presence or movements of the civilian population or individual civilians shall not be used to render certain points or areas immune from military operations, in particular in attempts to shield military objectives from attacks or to shield, favor or impede military operations. The Parties to the conflict shall not direct the movement of the civilian population or individual civilians in order to attempt to shield military objectives from attacks or to shield military operations.


but, it's cosseted by this one:


8. Any violation of these prohibitions shall not release the Parties to the conflict from their legal obligations with respect to the civilian population and civilians, including the obligation to take the precautionary measures provided for in Article 57.


the other articles and provisions are outlined here:

http://deoxy.org/wc/wc-proto.htm

And without access to the IDF reasons for a particular attack, any claims of violation are premature. The civilian deaths alone are not prima facie evidence, and the low number argues that care was taken against civilian casualties. From what is known so far the IAF could easily rebut all of the sections highlighted. More importantly, it will not matter. There will be investigations. The results will generally be inconclusive. Each side will claim bias against it. The dead will still be dead.

true that

nite Solo. Thanks for the discussion.

Israel's bombing innocent Lebanese civilians -- nearly all of whom never had anything to do with Hezbollah -- IS INEXCUSABLE AND IS INDEFENSIBLE. Israel did this with precision munitions and it was no accident.

The bloodshed started when Israel started bombing innocent civilians -- most of whom never had anything to do with Hezbollah and one-third of whom were children, supposedly because two soldiers were captured.

THIS IS INEXCUSABLE. THIS IS INDEFENSIBLE.

No matter how many posts appear trying to muddy the waters of moral responsibility and culpability, THIS REMAINS INDEFENSIBLE AND INEXCUSABLE.

Israel is the bully here, not Lebanon.

Your Hezbollah excuse rings hollow to those with a balanced world-view.

That is why most of the world condemns Israel's murderous attack against Lebanon.

Israel has shown it can be peaceful if not attacked. Egypt is the example of that. No shelling or kidnapping out of the Sinai. Its prosperous for both sides.

Hezbollah military actions are the seminal cause of the current fighting. Israel is far from blameless, but peace can only start when the shelling stops.

As I said, there have been enough killings. Israel has not done the job they claimed to be doing as they bombed these areas they knew were occupied by unarmed civilians. They broke the law and they were incompetent. I'm not talking about some court challenge, I'm talking about the bloody reality.

Criminally incompetent. They should be made to stand down from their airstrikes on these inhabited areas of Lebanon. There are innocent lives in the balance. I don't accept any argument that the Lebanese civilian's lives are any less important than those Israel claims to be defending as they launch their missiles into Lebanon.

get their people back. If they stop counter battery strikes because of the human shields, that does nothing to stop the shelling. I agree there has been more that enough killing, but given the totality of the circumstances, the rockets need to stop first. Unfortunately I don't see Hezbollah stopping unless their Syrian and Iranian master order them to.

I see no incompetence, criminal or otherwise, expect underestimating Hezbollah's willing to endanger the local populace

They need a mutual cease fire. I hope and pray they find their way there tomorrow.

as in the Sinai while Nasrallah is telling Arabs to get out of Haifa

no bomb to anyone till we feed our own!

no bombs to anyone till we give medicines to our own!

no bombs to kill human beings any more..

only sick fuckers would agree with this bullshit murder!! war crimes..

so tell me what did the jews learn in those concentration camps?

go read NIGHT..and tell me what the world learned!!

we are helping commit murder on innocent human beings..so what makes us different than hitler???????????????

what???????????????????????????????????????

fly

almost a year after having their families drown!

yes siree..fucking rush those god damned cluster bombs..but rush housing to the people in the gulf coast?? hellll noooo

i am so fucking sick of this bullshit i could spit nickles!

but ohhhh those people in the trailers best not talk to media..no no no that wouldn't work for the propaganda ding bat president of the idiots...and damn the ones who are living with formaldehyde in the trailers this government couldn't rush to our own people!

fuck that mother fucking murderer little lord pissy pants! i hate him with every inch of my soul!

go to hell pissy pants..may god strike that bastard dead on a golf course!

with one of his own rushed cluster fuckers!

this government of ours is committing murder in our name!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

with our money!

New and unknown Deadly weapons used by Isrealis
"By now there are countless reports, from hospitals, witnesses, armament experts and journalists that strongly suggest that in the present offensive of Israeli forces against Lebanon and Gaza 'new weapons' are being used.

New and strange symptoms are reported amongst the wounded and the dead.

Bodies with dead tissues and no apparent wounds; 'shrunken' corpses; civilians with heavy damage to lower limbs that require amputation, which is nevertheless followed by unstoppable necrosis and death; descriptions of extensive internal wounds with no trace of shrapnel, corpses blackened but not burnt, and others heavily wounded that did not bleed."

--more--

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArti...

Israel Must Not Use Indiscriminate Weapons

(Beirut, July 24, 2006) – Israel has used artillery-fired cluster munitions in populated areas of Lebanon, Human Rights Watch said today. Researchers on the ground in Lebanon confirmed that a cluster munitions attack on the village of Blida on July 19 killed one and wounded at least 12 civilians, including seven children. Human Rights Watch researchers also photographed cluster munitions in the arsenal of Israeli artillery teams on the Israel-Lebanon border.

According to eyewitnesses and survivors of the attack interviewed by Human Rights Watch, Israel fired several artillery-fired cluster munitions at Blida around 3 p.m. on July 19. The witnesses described how the artillery shells dropped hundreds of cluster submunitions on the village. They clearly described the submunitions as smaller projectiles that emerged from their larger shells.

The cluster attack killed 60-year-old Maryam Ibrahim inside her home. At least two submunitions from the attack entered the basement that the Ali family was using as a shelter, wounding 12 persons, including seven children. Ahmed Ali, a 45-year-old taxi driver and head of the family, lost both legs from injuries caused by the cluster munitions. Five of his children were wounded: Mira, 16; Fatima, 12; ‘Ali, 10; Aya, 3; and `Ola, 1. His wife Akram Ibrahim, 35, and his mother-in-law `Ola Musa, 80, were also wounded. Four relatives, all German-Lebanese dual nationals sheltering with the family, were wounded as well: Mohammed Ibrahim, 45; his wife Fatima, 40; and their children ‘Ali, 16, and Rula, 13.

Human Rights Watch researchers photographed artillery-delivered cluster munitions among the arsenal of Israel Defense Forces (IDF) artillery teams stationed on the Israeli-Lebanese border during a research visit on July 23. The photographs show M483A1 Dual Purpose Improved Conventional Munitions, which are U.S.-produced and -supplied, artillery-delivered cluster munitions. The photographs contain the distinctive marks of such cluster munitions, including a diamond-shaped stamp, and a shape that is longer than ordinary artillery, according to a retired IDF commander who asked not to be identified.

http://www.hrw.org/english/docs/2006/07/24/isrlpa13798.htm

More documents on cluster munitions at:
http://www.hrw.org/doc/?t=arms_clusterbombs

Israeli terror using American supplied weapons.. and we are supposed to be fighting terror?

does someone living amidst this madness need to be a fanatic
to hate our guts?

I need my fix...

One of the Lebanese complaints against Israel is that they still haven't handed over maps to the minefields that Israel left behind after its occupation from 1982-2000. Anti-personnel cluster munitions are infamous for leaving many unexploded bomblets behind. Heavy use of these would not only kill people already in the border area, whether Hizbollah or civilian, they'd also make it a dangerous place to be in the future - and Israel wouldn't have the United Nations pressuring it to hand over the maps, this time. It would mean one less Security Council resolution for the United States to veto.

thanks for the insight

/me pukes.