Lebanese convoy attacked by Israel today were freed captives!

  This is worth the 5 minutes it takes you to read. Please.

  Yesterday, this story broke (and was reported on DU, here. The Israeli army had captured the Lebanese town of Marjayoun and attempted to move into the military garrison there where Lebanese army, police and civilians had holed up during Israel's military offensive on Hezbollah.

  What occurred next, according to the article:


  Today the world heard the news that another convoy of Lebanese non-combatants had been attacked and innocents killed. DU thread here. Notice where they came from? That's right, Marjayoun. This convoy contained the Lebanese army, police and civilians who had offered to leave a day earlier but who were held captive by the Israeli army. It appears that some deal (as hinted at in the article) had been worked out between the Israeli armed forces and the Lebanese and the United Nations as the convoy was led by two United Nations armored personnel carriers.

  At least 9 rockets were fired from Israeli drones which CNN has reported were following the convoy when it left Marjayoun.

  Ambulances rushing to help those injured in the attack were attacked by the Israelis as well.

  Some deal, eh?

  It is still unclear just how many of these innocents were killed by the Israelis who knew damned-well exactly who they were.

  While the Israeli military or Olmert himself will no-doubt express their "deep sadness", yet again, over a nakedly vengeful attack on known, well-identified, innocents this sickening in the extreme.

  This just disgusting. Maybe it's worth giving your representative a call and asking them why they are unquestioningly supporting behavior like this?

  It's also worth a visit to Stop AIPAC whose sole purpose is to influence legislation and legislators like the one you hopefully just contacted in hopes of bringing at least the illusion of some level of objectivity on America's part.

PB

If you find this article useful, kick and especially RECOMMEND it. People don't know how hard to fight if they don't know how bad this situation really is.

About 3,000 civilians and 350 Lebanese soldiers and policemen had left the town in the large convoy a day after Israeli forces seized the area.

Several military and civilian cars were destroyed in the attack. Most of the casualties were civilians, witnesses said.

The convoy broke up with drivers heading into villages in the area to hide.

The Lebanese security men had been evacuated from their Marjayoun barracks by U.N. peacekeepers after high-level contacts between Lebanese authorities and world powers to pressure Israel to let them leave, officials said.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060811/wl_nm/mideast_south_dc

...innocents. It is beyond sickening.

  The Israelis negotiate the release of their captives then blow them up when they leave.

  Sicking, disgusting are the beginning of descriptors one would use to describe behavior like this.

PB

sickening is a euphemism.

I am sickened beyond belief. One of the targets is here...



An injured Lebanese police officer talks to his family on a mobile phone in the Mais Hospital in the town of Zahle in the eastern Bekaa Valley, Lebanon Saturday, Aug. 12, 2006. An Israeli drone fired Friday at a convoy of more than 100 civilian vehicles as well as vehicles carrying a detachment of 350 Lebanese soldiers and police fleeing the Israeli-occupied town of Marjayoun, killing at least one man and wounding others, witnesses and hospital officials said. (AP Photo/Nasser Nasser)

The Reporter Michael Ware was with them as well. I can not wait to see his report. Excellent post PB!

...unreal!

PB

too bad they can't seem to actually stop the rockets.

seems to be a targeting problem, yet they have the most sophisticated and precise weaponry.

either they are incompetent at targeting, or they're lying about what they are targeting.

I leave it to the reader to decide which.

Hezbollah is fighting from a guerilla war stance.
No army has ever defeated a guerilla army.
Israel knows they are shooting blind.
That is NOT why they are shooting.
They are trying to provoke retaliation from
Syria or another Arab country so the US
can justify their attack on Iran.
The neocons and Israelis do not give a damn
how many civilians (including Israeli civilians) they kill.
The more the better, in their view of the world and agenda.
They will continue to slaughter as many as it takes to
provoke retaliation.
That is the plan.
BHN

Fortunately, the Arab Nations have not retaliated. They are continuing to use diplomatic channels. They are not falling for the neocon trap. At least, not yet. Israel has just agreed to a ceasefire. I don't things were going as well as they had planned. We'll see what happens.

I don't think they will do anything; they know fully well what is going on.
My fear is that the neocons will manufacture something
to blame on them when they realize they are not
taking the bait.
GOD DAMN THEM ALL.
BHN

The Neocon shit gets debunked faster then a speeding bullet these days. That's one reason why there have been fewer terror attacks lately. Too many people are watching them now.

bhn

Yet, I did, sitting out here in bodink wa! Convoy with 1500 vehicles, including Lebanese police cars, military equipment, Muslim, Druze, & Christian villagers from all around the former SLA base at Marjayoun, who assumed they were safe with their own government's military accompanying them and white flags flying, UN marked cars leading them to safety and much-needed humanitarian aid and supplies.

Yesterday, the IDF denied that they were "detaining" all of those soldiers, yet today we see them fired on.

Hundreds of civilians, fleeing with their army, attacked.

Where is the outrage? Why is this allowed? Why do my leaders give their blessing to such war crimes?

$$$$$ and AIPAC that is why. And it is beyond disgusting.

The greater the death toll, the greater the resentment Lebanese feel towards Israel, and the more recruits Hezbollah will gain from the Lebanese population. They are no doubt using the dead women and children as recruitment tools.

"Lost your family in an Israeli bombing raid? Want to fight back? We have the solution! Join us in Hezbollah and fight the murderers of your family!"

...absolutely correct in your belief that these...attacks will only cause more incitement among Lebanese causing them to favor more militant options which ensures the Israeli people will continue to vote for their militarily heavy-handed leaders back into office again and again. An effective, but bloody, racket.

  It's just what Boosh did last election it's what he's doing now and God forbid, if another Republican gets into office that's what they'll do. Perpetual state of war.

PB

...killed and that there had been several strikes on the convoy. The first, on the head of the convoy, the second on vehicles desperately trying to get away and the third series against those who had made it to neighboring villages.

PB

...here likely see so many threads about the Lebanon situation that they skip over a good number of them. Each half of this story, posted in General as they broke, is upsetting enough.

  However once you see the story that both together make it's beyond belief. And as many people as possible need to know about this.

  Thank you, all of you, again!

PB

I think of a mafia Don kissing someone?

...just how far we are away from political dynasties (and I mean on both sides of the aisle). It does not serve the people well.

PB

Kinda makes you wonder, after this sort of atrocity, how hard the Lebanese Army is going to work to keep Hezballah from reinfiltrating into the border area.

My guess, the Isaelis will open fire on every Lebanese peacekeeper in any area that a rocket gets launched. The Lebanese will return fire. Back to square-one, but only next time, all Lebanon will fight Israel.

...in some state of war. The declaration by Israel that any vehicle would be attacked if it moved in South Lebanon is criminal enough. But to broker a peace deal with someone and then just as soon as your own shrapnel won't hit you, bombing them, it's just another example of why the current government of Israel is rightfully considered untrustworty.

  A great disservice to the Israeli people who certainly deserve better leadership. If Tzipi had fought Olmert and won Kadima instead of folding quickly she likely would have provided better leadership. And that's hard for me to say, she's second-generation Likud. But Olmert is turning out to be a famous disaster of a Prime Minister as far as Israeli history goes.

  Livni's probably already talking with Likud in hopes of getting back in.

  She will. She's much more liked than Olmert in Israel. Too bad the move she made away from the pro-settler stance of Likud backfired on her in a cruel twist of fate.

PB

hear their take on it.

:(



Lebanese women wait for the arrival of members of the Lebanese army and security forces, coming from the town of Marjayoun which was seized by the Israeli army on Thursday, at the village of Rachaya, north of Beirut August 11, 2006. REUTERS/Morteza Nikoubazl (LEBANON)

:thumbsup:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1883374 (olease kick that one too, lives may depend on it!!)

I am beginning to think it may be more dangerous than we think. Israel has absolutely no restraint whatsoever.

PB

Okay, I think we can all agree that the neocons are using
the IDF to provoke a response from the real targets, Syria/Iran.

Iran and Syria know fully well what the neocons want:
a justification to attack them, via a major strike on Israel
or other US interests in the region. (God forbid it be our troops)

Iran is not going to take the bait. Period.

HOWEVER, given the US permission for Israel to
continue to do the outrageous and criminal things
they are doing...COULD THIS NOT BE PART OF A NEOCON PLAN
TO MANUFACTURE AN INCIDENT THAT THEY WILL THEN
BLAME IRAN FOR?

Stating, naturally, that the incident was a response from Iran/Syria
for what the Israelis have done?

THINK ABOUT IT!
It is SO like them.

BHN

and it use to work. But now we have instant communication and 10,000's of people who now know the truth about this cabal. They shot their wad on 9-11. They will never get away with another one.

How ELSE can we explain what is happening without
ANY intervention?
Do you agree that they want to inflame the situation
to the point that they can try to manufacture something
to blame on Iran?

I really don't see another explanation for what
Israel is doing, and we ARE talking about the
criminal neocon kkkabal...

BHN

It is more difficult then it would seem to plant weapons that can't be traced or to pull off terrorist attacks when your network is falling apart and everyone is watching.

Keep in mind a lot of the dark players in this game are somewhat out of commission, like Abramoff and Scooter. Even Rove is looking like shit lately.

inside Syria's borders.

These aren't aggressive actions they are merely an act of self defense. A widening war according to the PNAC plan should be the least of your concerns. Why do you hate America and Israel? These sentiments are most unpatriotic and in the eyes of some could also be construed as being anti-semitic. :sarcasm: if really necessary.

Oh,yeah, Kill Them All, Let God sort it out. There is no longer any need for peaceful conflict resolution! You must just kill them all!!!

Israel is defending herself.
Note to self: Israel is only defending herself.
Check.
Got it.
:sarcasm:

No I think my theory about the US trying to provoke
Iran through the attacks on civilians, and if all else
fails, using those attacks to cover a manufactured
attack, is much more likely.

GOD DAMN the neocons and the Israeli accomplices.
BHN

When Israelis lie about their deep sense of sorrow over lives lost by the Lebanese, when they are deliberately carrying out these murders, it is quite horrible.

I hope that you enjoy it here! :hi:

the criminal BUSH administration.
The US has armed them to the teeth
and effectively given them permission to
commit war crimes, BECAUSE-
it serves their hegomonic ambition to
control the ME, and perhaps most importantly
as Dick Cheney licks his reptilian licks,
nuke Iran.
BHN

Kicking, because I can not help but notice
the attempt to sink it.
KICK IT PEOPLE!
BHN

crickets

must have gone to bed.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

The ingredients of a dying civilizaton.

You add ignorance and arrogance to
the necessary ingredients to a dying civilization.
BHN

...of the "Team Israel" posters really are Democrats and during this whole thing there's a burning sensation in their head anytime they try to reckon the actions of the current, conservative, Israeli government with their long-held beliefs as Democrats.

  I guarantee you- it's not like they're looking at this thread and not responding. They're not looking at this thread, they likely have it on ignore- the more they look at this the more the disparity between their unconditional support for a conservative government and their belief system as Democrats grows.

  From messages I've read, they are very distressed by the actions of the government as you'd expect they should. However, in my opinion many of them genuinely believe that if they criticize Israel they could be weakening Israel as a concept, the nation itself, instead of just the current government.

  It really sucks to be them, too, because in 20 years with all the babies the Settlers are having are grown up and they're chasing down and beating leftist Jews in the streets of Tel-Aviv they're going to realize the bitter fruit they helped plant the seeds of.

PB

bhn

that's what they're aiming for in that area.

PBS just told me!

thanks for catching that.!

BHN

many supposed 'liberals' are totally behind this obscenity.

PB

it sucks, sucks, sucks!


that being said, Israel screwed up

I see no evidence that this was intentional attack

more like piss poor communication, showing a military that lacks effectiveness and efficiency in what they are doing.

maybe it's time to really ask, what the fuck are they doing?

screw ups like this do not help their cause one bit.

1500 vehicles?!!?


A convoy of vehicles snakes along a road toward the southern village of Marj el-Khokh, near the southern town of Marjayoun, Lebanon, Friday, Aug. 11, 2006, as smoke rises in the town of Jdeidet Marjayoun, background, following an Israeli bombardment. U.N. peacekeepers were dispatched Friday to evacuate about 350 Lebanese soldiers and police detained by Israeli forces in Marjayoun a day after Israeli soldiers swept into the southern Lebanese town, security officials said. (AP Photo/Lotfallah Daher)

  You are very, very frustrated over this issue. There is a burning sensation in your head as you try to reconcile the hideous actions of the Israeli government with the tenets you hold dearly as a Democrat. And yet, at some point, you decided to stop further internal questioning- to truncate all further thoughts that Israel's conservative government may in fact be committing heinous crimes because somewhere along the way you were programmed or programmed yourself to believe that the Israeli government was nearly blameless and almost unconditionally-correct in all things, regardless of whether or not it was headed by a Conservative or Liberal government.

  You lost your sense of objectivity in the matter. Moreso, you really deserve the burden of this action: You did not lose your objectivity- you switched it off.

  With your blind support for Israel's conservative government you're hurting Israel and, yes, Jews everywhere in the long run. All because you believed you were doing the right thing in supporting them no matter what. But Israel is like any other nation- it deserves praise and criticism at appropriate times. And to deny Israel's Conservative government criticism you do it a great disservice.

PB

not? And I'm not even talking about a few posters here, but every member of the Senate gave Olmert their full backing. Not ONE has expressed any reservation about the attack on Lebanon, the way cluster bombs have been used against civilians (U.S. cluster bombs!) the bombing of UN Convoys, UN installations, civilian deaths in Qana, the refusal to negotiate, Olmert's insistance on continuing to "destroy Hezbollah" when in reality it is completely destroying Lebanon.

This goes beyond plain old conservatism, or right-wing politics, bad as that may be. This is cult-like fanaticism. David Korish probably had more dissent in his cult than Olmert gets from Congress (Olmert certainly has to deal with more dissent in Israel).

Special mention should go to the few who at least insist on a cease-fire. Kucinich, we salute you.
http://www.pdamerica.org/articles/news/members-sign-res450.php

War is mostly muddle, and the most modern communications seem to have aggravated, rather than alleviated, this condition. Most people commenting on this feel error was impossible, but to me that seems mis-guided: error is more than possible. If one takes the view that it was done on purpose, then one must be prepared to supply a motive. Pure blood-lust will hardly do. Nor will intricate filligrees mounting to claims of intrnt to move other states to open military involvement: that is not to Israel's interest, and to anyone seeking pretext for attack on other states, sufficient pretext for the purpose already exists.

My view is that Israel has a right to exist, that it is no great standing crime or terrible exemplar of mis-behavior, and so it is my practice to challenge accusations that seem rooted in exaggeration of that sort. It is also my practice to criticize behavior by the Israeli government, the Israeli military, or elements of Israeli society, that seem to me to warrant criticism. Further, it is my view that there is nothing inherently progressive or leftist in opposition to Israel. The most active opponents of Israel are hardly progressive forces: they are obscurantist reactionaries, whose conduct in arms is very frequently overtly criminal. It is getting harder to support the idea that there is any level of concession from Israel that could be relied on to disarm the local opposition to its continuance as a state, and if that line of reasoning becomes impossible to uphold while remaining sensible and clear-eyed about the circumstances one is trying to comprehend, then it becomes difficult to recommend anything but reliance on naked force in war, from the Israeli point of view.

how reliance on naked force in war will help the Israelis? Because I believe many of us know Israel's obviously vast ability to end human life is not a benefit for the survival of the state of Israel, I question where you could be going with the unfortunately shortened end of your last paragraph.

Just because you believe Israel has a right to exist is not reason enough. My view is that Israel, while it may be a decent idea, is also an idea that is guaranteeing the premature, violent deaths of many innocent Jews, Muslims, Christians, and atheists, and will continue to do so for far longer than my lifespan. In that light, I do not agree that Israel has any right to exist, any more than any other concept has a right to exist, and far less right than any concept that does not guarantee the premature, violent deaths of innocents. Yet I suggest that, as well reasoned as my argument is, it has no more validity than your unsupported assertion that Israel has some a priori right to exist. We are dueling with cornstalks.

Something tells me, though, that you think have a rapier instead of a cornstalk. Something about windmills comes to mind.

"Further, it is my view that there is nothing inherently progressive or leftist in opposition to Israel." Sir, are you even trying to make sense? What could you possibly be suggesting with this line? It doesn't take much of a progressive to realize that continued support for a state whose very existence absolutely guarantees the premature, violent deaths of Jews, Muslims, and Christians is maybe not the best idea. In fact, I would suggest that many conservatives and regressives could comprehend that little lesson as well.

So while my argument may be no more logical at its foundation than yours, I will remind you that mine requires the reader to believe that Israel's existence causes premature, violent death, and that such death is a poor idea, while your argument requires us to place blind obedience in the idea that, well, you think Israel has some a priori right to exist, no matter the consequences.

I'll take my assumption anyday, thank you very much.

with "Israel's right to exist".

When the US was carpet bombing Vietnam, some people protested. Were they questioning the "U.S. right to exist?" When the U.S. (and Israel, i might add) was supporting Guatamala death squads that killed thousands and thousands, some protested. Were they questioning the U.S. right to exist? It's not opposition to Israel, or to the US. It is about policies that kill and destroy, in massive numbers.

Opposing such policies is affirming people's right to exist.

Let's affirm Lebanon's right to exist.

Is that ranged among the enemies of Israel are bodies frankly dedicated to its destruction, and taken into account with the numerical disparity, when one of these is active, the potential must be reckoned with. It is mot my view that the present activities of Hezbollah constitute a serious menace to Israel, but that body does present as great a threat as it can muster, and it is the sort of thing that any state would eventually take serious steps to bring an end to. Certainly, there is no reason to believe the leadership and armed cadre of that organization will ever abate its hostility.

Is the final resort where incompatible things are willed, and no reasonable solution can be agreed on by the contestants. It will be employed in such cases, whether it will be of benefit or not. As a practical matter, Israel is capable of ensuing its continuance in the foreseeable future through its use. If no other option is available, that is what will be done.

The idea the existance of Israel guarantees the death of many does not survive the mirror test, for one could just as easily say the determination to resist it, to destroy it, is what provides the guarantee many will die.

It is true enough that nothing, neither state nor person nor beast or plant, really has any right to anything it cannot vindicate through means at its disposal capable of securing it. Nothing is required to count the cost to anything else against its survival, should that be what it perceives at stake. The nearest thing to a check on this, in any social order, is whether the belief one's survival is at stake is a reasonable one or not. If you do violence to someone in conviction you are acting in self-defense, witnesses, a police officer, perhaps even a jury, will need to agree with your assessment of the situation. Where such factors are absent, there is no check but one's own assessment of the circumstance. Unfortunately, perhaps, the relations of states with one another comes closer to the latter case than the former.

What your argument seems to me to ignore are the simple facts that Israel exists, and cannot be overthrown without a tremendous exercise of violence. To my view, that is pretty solid argument for leaving the situation as it is. The establishment of the place was lawful, as international law existed and was construed at the time, and questions of morality it is my custom usually to dispense with, agreement on them being largely impossible, given the varying standards people employ in that regard, and the frequency with which they are unwilling to compromise over them, or admit the possible validity of anyone else's standards.

to give unqualified support to Olmert. Or Bush. Or anyone else (and who deserves that?)

The fact is that nearly everyone in Lebanon is now actively opposing Israel's actions. 800,000 refugees. A zone that has been declared that anyone remaining in it will be considered an enemy. thousands and thousands of homes destroyed. What for? To destroy an opposition military that sought to gain the release of their prisoners by capturing a few Israeli military men. The Israeli military is clearly destroying these villages in a way to pressure civilians to turn against Hezbollah. In other words, just like suicide bombers seek to change Israeli policy by bombings in cafes, Israel blows up homes to punish Hezbollah.

The natural response is now near-universal distrust of Israel, probably hatred, and hatred toward the US. I doubt if in Lebanon it is a matters if they are progressive or reactionary, they oppose occupation, wanton destruction of their homeland.

We must support international law, and just plain moral decency. This bombing of Lebanon must stop, this aggression must stop. Let's support a complete cease-fire, complete withdraw of Israeli troops from all of Lebanon. Now.

But when it is boiled down, it amounts to saying that both sides mis-behave in a similar way, which removes any grounds for choosing between them that rests on the claim one is behaving worse than the other. That there is something especially abominable about Israel's behavior is the bedrock on which a great deal of the agitation against it, here and elsewhere, rests. To my view, the mere efficiency of an actor does not elicit condemnation, any more than the inefficiency of one excuses it. The difference between a machine-gun and a knife does not indicate any difference in the purpose the person gripping the implements.

Are you positing that Israel's actions are morally equivalent to those of Hezbollah? Or Hamas? Or Al Quaeda, for that matter?

Upon reading your comment, you seem to be saying that it is unfair to assign additional blame to Israel based upon their superior ability to kill civilians.

But that would imply that it IS fair to assign the SAME level of blame to them.

Or did I misunderstand your machine-gun / knife metaphor?

however many big and flowery words one uses,or how politely one says it.

and find reasons for their actions. However if you look at the carnage of people they are killing and the whole country they are destroying, then there is no way to defend their strategy. They are trying to neutralize a whole country to keep their country safe. There is no way that can work. Hezbullah will come back even stronger, even if Israel demolishes them.

proposed recently (to varying degrees but generally in the same direction) that some of the most blatant incidents could be intentional baiting of Syria and Iran. If Syria and Iran attack Israel the U.S. will step in, kind of like the little brother starting shit knowing full well that big brother will step in.

  The dynamics and motivations and targets are described by me here. It's not the best expression of the thought, but it's more lucid than my reply here.

PB

I believe they are in a state of cognitive dissonance. Much like the 23% who support bush foreign policy disasters and fail to admit the horror it has brought the world.

...usual and had to use material directed at another poster in another thread for that open letter. There is so much information out there, the declining rates of those making the aliyah, the vicious attacks that leftist Jews deal with in Israel, etc. which would be even more convincing material for Liberal Jews placed between a rock and a hard place soley by those rightists both in Israel and the United States who use Diasporic Guilt, especially the canard that criticism of Israel equates tearing down the nation of Israel, itself, in attempt to control the actions of well-meaning, good-intentioned Jews primarily in the Diaspora.

PB

long time passing.

nominated, of course.

I am so sick of hearing about Israel "accidents" :mad:

the more familiar it sounds. Israel is using BushCo's Iraq playbook! :grr:

i wonder if the MSM will question Israel on this. Or if they will stick their heads in the sand.

PB

nt, but thanks for this post. It's too sad for words.

Hate was a four letter word in my family. However, may my father rest in peace, I do think I am beginning to really HATE Israel. The post points to an extremely heinous crime........these poor people....what can they do? Now let me see---all of this started with the capture of two soldiers?Insane. Futile. I do not think Israel wants peace...only war....something they can export....and I am afraid they are.

Olmert (and Nasrallah) to the Hague!

...for that!

PB

Important thread, btw. You're doing a great service, PB.