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America, love it or leave it.. Okay, I'm down with that..

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converted_democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-19-06 06:48 AM
Original message
America, love it or leave it.. Okay, I'm down with that..
America, love it or leave it...

If you've ever tried to debate current political events with a freeper, I'd bet good money that at some point in the conversation (usually when they have no leg left to stand on) you've heard.. "This is America, love it or leave it.." Personally, I can't count the number of times I've heard the phrase. I heard it at the fair when I was passing out buttons with Democratic/ anti- war slogans on them, and I heard it as I, and others marched down Main St. with my homemade stop the war, and "no blood for oil" signs.
It seemed at some points I heard it everywhere I turned.. The r-wing talk show hosts on TV as well as radio love to use it, and mindless freepers love to parrot it..

When I would hear the phrase "love it or leave it" I'd roll my eyes, and think to myself "that's all you got?" At some point though, something in me changed.. I really started thinking about the words, and what they meant to me. America, love it or leave it.. It's a pretty straight forward phrase for the most part.. It implies that if you don't love this country, than perhaps you should leave it. I used to get offended when I heard the phrase, now I actually agree with it, and I think our party would be better off for using it..

You see, I love my country. I love who she is, and I love what she stands for.. I don't want to change her.. I don't want to change the freedom she allows us, I don't want to change her due process.. I don't want to exchange my liberties for safety, and I respect the ideals she was founded on. I love her Democratic ways, and her protections from tyranny.. I respect and love her Constitution, and I think her ideals on separation of power are down right peachy keen.. You know what I love most about her? You can belong to any religion, or no religion at all, and no matter the color of your skin, you're still equal in her eyes..

So, all you lurking freepers take note, because for once I am in total agreement with you, love it, or leave it.. Love and respect our Democracy, or leave it. Love our freedoms, process, personal liberties, and Constitution, or let the door hit ya. This country is a democracy, not a dictatorship, we have checks and balances, and they are there for a reason. You freeps though, seem to have trouble with the idea of freedom, liberty, and you are all for handing your man * the power of a dictator. You don't seem to understand separation of church and state, and the Second Amendment is the only thing you respect about the Constitution.

So freeps, love it or leave it.. Love this country, and what she stands for, or leave it. Us "Loony Liberals" love her, and we don't want to change her. You freeps though, proclaim your love, and then try to change everything she has stood for since her conception. If you love her as much as you claim, than why are you trying to change her? Why are you trying to turn her into something she isn't? That isn't love.

America, love it or leave it.
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emanymton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-19-06 06:50 AM
Response to Original message
1. Love Your Style
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converted_democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-19-06 06:57 PM
Response to Reply #1
25. Thank you..
:blush:
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whistle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-19-06 06:51 AM
Response to Original message
2. Goose-stepping with the neocons right into WW III
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xchrom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-19-06 07:03 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. learn how to read.
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whistle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-19-06 07:24 AM
Response to Reply #4
9. ??? Right, the "... either love America or leave it" mantra is about
...blind obedience to authority and the accepted norm of expected mass behavior of those who live and work and play in America. Differences of opinion are not tolerated by the either the conservative or liberal fascists (i.e. as in less change verses more change). Fascism is fascism no matter how it is dressed up to look.

http://www.larouchepub.com/other/2006/3333v_felix_in_nyc.html
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xchrom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-19-06 07:31 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. oh -- larouche is sane -- right -- not.
read what the fuck the poster said!

it is not about ANY kind of blind obeidience because that's exactly what the founding thinkers were against.

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converted_democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-19-06 07:31 AM
Response to Reply #9
12. I simply took a phrase they love to use, and I turned it on them..
Edited on Sat Aug-19-06 07:33 AM by converted_democrat
Really that simple..

On edit- I'm not a fascist, just so ya know.. I'm just an American, that really values the foundation of our nation, and what it stands for..
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whistle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-19-06 10:25 AM
Response to Reply #12
22. Does anyone have any idea what America really stands for, those
...who call themselves "real Americans" wrap themselves with the flag and at the same time use the constitution which is supposed to protect the individual against the tyranny of the group as toilet paper. The past two federal elections have shown that America's voters have lost the right to choose their leaders with fair and honest elections, the tyranny of the president who uses lies and signing statements to ignore and violate the will of the congress and the laws of the land. The corruption and dishonesty of elected officials from both major parties seems to be out in the open and goes virtually unpunished. What is the truth about America? Someone, please explain. Thank you.
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converted_democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-19-06 11:10 AM
Response to Reply #22
24. You didn't seem to "get" the OP in the first place, so I doubt I'd be able
Edited on Sat Aug-19-06 11:13 AM by converted_democrat
to explain anything to your liking anyway.. I read your first reply and now your second, and I don't understand what either have to do with the OP, or the price of tea in China..

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NoPasaran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-19-06 07:36 AM
Response to Reply #9
14. "Fascism is fascism no matter how it is dressed up to look."
Pretty much sums up the LaRouche nutters last forty years. They;ve changed uniforms a few times but always heiled to the same fuhrer.
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A-Schwarzenegger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-19-06 07:02 AM
Response to Original message
3. Nice try, but I despise that term so much
there's no way to turn it around to be useful (for me).
God damn, I hate that term.
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xchrom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-19-06 07:04 AM
Response to Original message
5. woo-hoo -- k&r
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Jeanette in FL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-19-06 07:06 AM
Response to Original message
6. America, right or wrong
My response to those who say "America, Love it or Leave it" is:

America, right or wrong, love her when she's right and right her when she's wrong.

I wish I knew where I read that as to give proper credit.

Very nice piece you wrote there, I agree. Freeps like to come up with and throw out their little slogans. It is time we throw some back at 'em.
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bluerum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-19-06 07:19 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. Senator Kerry said something similar during his viet nam era
senate hearings.
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Jeanette in FL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-19-06 07:32 AM
Response to Reply #8
13. Yes, I think that is where I first heard it.
Thank you for reminding me on that.
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zanne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-19-06 07:15 AM
Response to Original message
7. k&r
Now, all we need is a valid discussion with freepers about the meaning of the words freedom, liberty, democracy, etc. The argument never goes that far; it always stops with freepers ducking the questions by saying something like "America love it or leave it".
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Jamastiene Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-19-06 07:25 AM
Response to Original message
10. Yep. And America is full of
feminists, gays, nonwhite people, liberals, pacifists, nonChristians, and all the other people that FReepers hate. I say we should start saying that back to them when they complain about anything we do.
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GreenCommie Donating Member (320 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-19-06 08:01 AM
Response to Original message
15. When they say that
I offer to buy them their plane ticket. :evilgrin:
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cyclezealot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-19-06 08:04 AM
Response to Original message
16. Righting the wrongs of a country is not hating it.
Americans are too hung up on the we are number one thing. Lots of countries are free. In fact with the concentration of power in the media, diversity of opinion of far more likely elsewhere. Not that we are at the bottom. Not saying that. Just balance this love it stuff with a does or reality.
Ever heard of the struggle for labor rights. It was almost a civil war with lots of innoncent victims . Ever hear of the Palmer raids, Joe Hill, Vanzetti trial, Ludlow Massacre, Haymarket Riot, Alien and Sedition Act. and now we have Ann Coulter and the Fox news. Being real does not mean hate on one's land. It means living up to the expectations of Benjamin Franklin, when he said, we give you a republic , if you can keep it.
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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-19-06 08:15 AM
Response to Original message
17. I 'love' this, converted_democrat. Thank you & well-said! nt
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China_cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-19-06 08:37 AM
Response to Original message
18. America. Change it or lose it.
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procopia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-19-06 08:39 AM
Response to Original message
19. Freepers can't seem to distinguish the country from its leadership
One can love the country and hate its leadership. They certainly hated Bill Clinton.
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GreenCommie Donating Member (320 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-19-06 08:51 AM
Response to Reply #19
20. Then why wasn't there
a mass exodus of Freepers in the 90s?
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tanyev Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-19-06 09:33 AM
Response to Original message
21. Anyone who longs for a fundamentalist theocracy can bloody well
emigrate to the Middle East. There are several countries to choose from.
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-20-06 05:12 AM
Response to Reply #21
32. Totally agree; some freepers could solve their problem by
actually converting to the Islamic religion they rave on about - they are actually jealous that people in that religion have theocratic states where their religion is the "official" religion. The most the freepers can hope for is to try to make English the "official" language.
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Coyote_Bandit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-19-06 10:27 AM
Response to Original message
23. I love America
And I would be delighted to leave it given the right opportunity. Freedom is an ideal that pales in comparison to the practical needs of those who are chronically hungry, poorly clothed, unhoused, or sick due to lack of healthcare. Folks here die everyday due to lack of food, shelter, adequate clothing or healthcare. I hope not to find myself in such circumstances. If that means I have to expatriate myself then so be it. It is not my preference. If I leave you should not assume that I do not love my country. However, it just might be fair to assume that there was someplace else that affords better compensation for my skills and, thus, a better quality of life.
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diamidue Donating Member (606 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-19-06 07:31 PM
Response to Reply #23
26. Agreed.
I admire the writer's lofty sentiments, but there is no way I would live in this country under a fascist regime if I could avoid it. I wouldn't leave until I felt I absolutely had to, but yes, I would leave.
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-20-06 05:10 AM
Response to Reply #26
31. Because it would not be America
It would not be this country if it were to lose the Constitution and end up a dictatorship.

One doesn't know what these right wingers who say this "love" but it's not America.
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converted_democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-20-06 06:14 AM
Response to Reply #26
34. I could be wrong here, but I think you misunderstood my OP..
Freeps love to use the term "Love it or leave it.." I was just throwing it back at them, and questioning what their "love" for this country really means..
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L0oniX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-19-06 09:48 PM
Response to Original message
27. I have kicked peoples asses for saying that
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converted_democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-23-06 10:15 AM
Response to Reply #27
37. Thanks for sharing..
How very progressive.. NOT..
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Harry Monroe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-19-06 09:55 PM
Response to Original message
28. Here is a response I wrote...
...to a fellow Union member on our BBS a few years ago in response to the accusation that liberals were not being patriotic because they question this Administration. That same old idiotic refrain "love it or leave it" is addressed as well, but I thought this reply is better posted in its entirety.


"H***, excuse my French here and I'll apologize beforehand for anyone I may offend here but that is pure HORSESHIT!!!! If you live in a democracy, it is only right that we should question anything that stinks in government. I don't care about Democrat, Republican, left-wing, right-wing, liberal, conservative or Ukranian!!! If you see nothing "fishy" with this Administration (look at the headlines every day), keep sticking your head up your ass. The truth, hopefully, will come out eventually. It usually does.

Just remember our "founding fathers" who had the courage to question a tyrannical monachy 3,000 miles away. they were "liberal" as hell; having these funny ideas about a new form of government. Patriotism does not mean marching "lock step" with the party line, but questioning things for the good of the country so as to make this a better country for our children and grandchildren. Hell, by your reasoning, since the German people did not do enough to question Nazism they were true patriots and ditto for good Communists. They did not "question" things but went along with the "party line". I really get tired of that same old refrain when one questions something in this country that you should "love it or leave it." Well, the very reason that I love this country is all the more reason to speak out against injustices and the chicanery of our government, no matter which party is in power. Are you saying that when Clinton was in power and people were speaking out against him and his Administration (albeit for spurious reasons) that they were being "unpatriotic"?? The right seems to be applying a double standard here. Supreme Court Justice Robert W. Jackson once said "It is not the function of the government to keep the people from falling into error, but rather it is the function of the people to keep the government from falling into error." If we fail in this duty, we have diminished our democracy and rights, bit by bit, and then we deserve what we get for failing to keep watch over our government, no matter what party is in office. In the most basic sense, the government and this Administration are our employees and they all work for us, not the other way around. Often this if forgotten. If we see something not right, don't we as employers have the right to question our employees??

Brother C******, it's not Bush's proclaimation that "I'm a Christian" that bothers most people; its the fact that many people believe that the United States is a "Christian" nation, and believe that all other theocratical belief systems should be suppressed such as is done in many Arabic countries, who base their govermental model on Islamic belief and laws and to a lesser extent, Israel, where being Islamic or Christian is akin to being a second class citizen there. Most other countries that are predominately Islamic or Jewish have no system of separation of church and state, which is guaranteed to us by our Constitution. Yes, I'll agree, our population is predominately Christian in its makeup, but to say we are a "Christian" nation, no. Yes, this country was founded on Christian-Judeo values (most of the framers were Protestants after all); I don't believe there was a Jew or Muslim in the whole bunch (with Charles Carroll of Carrolton being the sole Catholic) But the framers had the foresight and wisdom to include a provision for the separation of church and state. Thank God (yes, I also believe in a Supreme Being, but I am agnostic when it comes to specific religious beliefs) we have this Constitution of ours that prohibits an establishment of one official state religion over another, and serves to keep people like this in check. It's worked well for 214 years and counting, despite the wishes and desires of some in the Conservative "Christian" religious right. Their intolerance of other belief systems belies their "Christian" label.

Don't you find it ironic, also, that the great majority of these "religious bigots" are Protestant?? It was the Protestants who first broke off from the Catholic faith, because they found the Roman Church "intolerable". This is not to single out Protestants, mind you; but this serves to point out that their "thinking" is similar to those of the Muslim "far right". And I now consider myself a "Protestant"; having grown up Roman Catholic and fed up with their hypocrisy, I left the Church years ago in "protest".

The argument that the Left loathes the principals of its founders is also a spurious one. On the contrary, it is most often the Left which will speak out when these very principals embodied in our Constitution are being eroded. Say what you will about the ACLU; I'm sure you think it to be an odious organization. But...they are committed to protecting the constutional rights of everyone, Left or Right. And while the cases they take on may not be popular, their paramount mission is protecting these very rights for all, even those on the extreme ends of the political spectrum. The Right, not the Left as you contend is often the first to try to "limit speech and debate that does not correspond to their own belief system, in the pursuit of restrictions on religious expression, circumvention of the law and rougish political discourse".
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L0oniX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-19-06 10:04 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. Amen
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jwdeviant Donating Member (48 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-20-06 05:36 AM
Response to Reply #28
33. Beautiful!
On a tangent, Protestants burned lots and lots of witches and, for that matter, other Protestants. John Calvin was particularly fond of this. What bothers me is that these groups who have fought each other tooth and nail for so long have finally been able to put aside their differences to try to become especially bossy. This is worrying.

To be fair, I suppose that sort of thing is inevitable when you follow a book that tells you not to kill, but that you must also not suffer a witch to live. Oh well.

Pardon my digression ... and my grumpiness.
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converted_democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-20-06 10:09 AM
Response to Reply #28
35. Great response!! n/t
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threadkillaz Donating Member (453 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-20-06 03:01 AM
Response to Original message
30. Got it O'Reilly and Hannity???
If you hate half of America, you hate America.

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Exiled in America Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-20-06 10:22 AM
Response to Original message
36. I don't love America. I don't "love" a country or government.
I love people. Nationalism is a sick and twisted mentality largely responsible for the bulk of the world's historical suffering and violence.

The world is my country.
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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-23-06 10:17 AM
Response to Original message
38. I love it - that's why I *care* enough to want to *improve* it. Duh.
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