Health Police

Elsewhere in Europe in the 18th century other types of coercion in health policy were beginning to develop. In Germany for example, many medical journals included in their titles the term Medizinalpolizei,(medicine police), and later Gesundheits-Polizei (health police). The medical historian George Rosen has argued that the concept of medical police was part of a broader political force which sought to secure greater wealth for the merchant classes and the aristocracy by ensuring that workers were sufficiently fit for their semi-slave roles.

This trend, according to Paul Weindling at the Wellcome Unit for the History of Medicine led to more far-reaching consequences:

"Medicine was transformed from a free profession, as it was proclaimed by the German Confederation in 1869, to the doctor carrying out duties of State officials in the interests not of the individual patient but of society and future generations."

This convergence of state and medical interests was also reflected in Britain in the rise of the eugenics movement in the early 1900s, following publications by Francis Galton and others. The philosophy enshrined the belief that the quality of human stock could be improved, as in the case of other animals, by preventing the reproduction of those of lesser quality while encouraging propagation of the superior variety. The term 'social hygiene', which quickly followed the development of eugenic ideology, incorporated notions of genetic selection with concerns for sanitation, diet, personal lifestyle and child care. While previously ill-health had been seen as an unavoidable misfortune, it now became (at least in part) the result of bad habits.

The fact that such dangerous philosophies were seen as persuasive by health reformers was due in large part to the pressures to achieve 'national efficiency' prior to the First World War. From the point of view of Charity Commissioners and the medical profession, the number of 'undeserving' poor in society had become unacceptable and radical steps were needed to reduce such a burden in times of economic recession. The eugenic ideology, therefore, found favour across the political spectrum, with 'left', 'right' and 'new liberals' all in agreement that control of breeding and lifestyles was a legitimate role for the State.

These patterns of convergence of the state and medical professions were the direct precursors, according to some historians, for the ultimate expression of lifestyle and health prescription which lay at the heart of the philosophy of the Third Reich. And comparisons between contemporary healthism and that which developed in Germany in the 1930s are, I'm afraid, so striking that they cannot be ignored. The philosophy of Gesundheit ist Pflicht - health is duty - initially took on forms that are disconcertingly familiar in modern health trends.

http://www.sirc.org/publik/bad_habits.shtml

Violated Godwins law, right off the bat.

Currently, I'm involved in a panel trying to devise ways to get Americans more health conscious.

Party to your hearts content. Don't come crying to me with the bill. Don't expect me to subsidize your lifestyle.

There's something to this "sustainability" concept. I'll let you reconcile it with your own behavior.

It was Mark Twain, of course, who also urged us to be careful when reading health books. "You might", he warned "die of a misprint."

as far as whatever vice people have, as long as it doesn't affect me.

That said, I don't think trying to encourage a nation with a documented obesity problem to try to at least be aware of their diets and activity levels is being a "health Nazi" in that no one is forcing anyone to exercise (gasp!).

I'm not in perfect health and never will be, but I am in decent shape and can be active without undue stress and try to eat well because I feel better doing so. And frankly, I'll help anyone who wants to do something to improve themselves if they are the ones initiating and asking for help. Otherwise, it's their own decisions.

But do nOT discriminate do not play favoritism do not tell others how to live and add an OR ELSE..we will do THIS to you.. Bullshit. That is not education it is a coercive threat change or suffer because the STATE don't like people like you.While they IGNORE the pollution and contamination of the food supply . Humans rather beat themselves down and each other than take away unaccountable corporations rule, and control over the food supply and land usage and THAT is the problem.Fuck corporations THEY are making us sick.
http://www.scienceagogo.com/news/20020628213420data_trunc_sys.shtml
http://www.ourstolenfuture.org/Commentary/News/2003/2003-0401-BBC-inuitthreat.htm
http://www.healthandage.com/public/article-home/3131/Thyroid-Dysfunction-and-the-Obesity-Epidemic.html


So easy to blame the individuals who look unattractive and bully them isn't it.. rather than STOP A CORPORATE THUG MACHINE Ruining the planet isn't it. People are such COWARDS!In such DENIAL VIce police instead of forcing greedy Ceo's and psychopathic corporations to clean up their act and be ABSOLUTELY transparent about the sHIT they are doing with the food supply.

As someone who was pretty big growing up, lost a lot of weight (because I could not afford a car and rode my bike everywhere I had to go, and could not afford to eat processed food very often), and is now in the middle somewhere, I have NEVER made fun of someone for their weight or coerced them, and I agree that the food industry sucks - as a vegetarian/near-vegan I know it's been hard as hell until recently to get an honest food label - some companies are starting to get better about it though.

It took years for me to lose weight and to feel healthier - and I did it because I wanted to. Sure some people made fun of me, but they also made fun of me for wearing glasses or my teeth or any number of reasons. Screw them.

i will assume you are just being angry, but it sure came across as attacking me even if you didn't mean to.

Seriously, good for you.

I am attacking the concept the state has any business telling me what weight I should be,wear,speak look like or whatever. I really don't want to ever see a for your own good intentions movement made into a force of the state to control lifestyles . And that's where these attitudes telling fat people they are inferior or stupid because of the way they eat food being expressed here can lead to a very dark side of that "can do" fixit" when Utopianity gets started and the state gets involved beyond information distribution..

And the thing that gets me is this blame the individual response while the IGNORE the corporations that control the food supply denial response going on in these lets educate poor people who can't afford nutritious food than lets penalize them for being fat from the bad food which is what they can afford. It is an UNTENABLE catch 22. It's evil...

That is where this type of reform people that you think are not good as they are type of thinking and asking for 'state assistance' to force people to change eventually goes.

Granted that obesity is a health issue(for SOME not all),So why is it a public health issue now? ..Moral panic like when there was witches to burn the hysteria rises.. and here we go..

http://www.today.ucla.edu/2006/060523voice_obesity.html

http://home.comcast.net/~bkrentzman/articles/krentzman.obesity.newsletter/newsletter.2.00.html
http://www.obesitymyth.com/pressrelease.htm
http://www.hungercoalition.org/hungerinfo/newsandmedia/archivedarticles/archivedobesity.html
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2004/01/040105071229.htm

We don't need a vice squad to control people's waistlines we need a squad to control what corporations do with OUR food supply .. We need to make corporations be accountable to US, to be fair and to make them clean up the crap and make food that is healthy to eat affordable to all of us.WE need to make food that is nutritious a BASIC HUMAN RIGHT FOR EVERYONE. And we need to quit being BIGOTS to one another over bullshit like size, race, gender ect..ect,and grow up.Daddy corporation and daddy sate is an abusive motherfucker if he is not restrained by human rights and human dignity and equality.

Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.

http://www.unhchr.ch/udhr/lang/eng.htm

DO WE CONTROL WHAT CORPORATIONS PUT IN OUR FOOD? In our AIR? In our SOIL ? In our WATER?? NO! We do NOT control any of that as of now. Regards to food,we can only pick among what THEY offer us or support independent farmers markets in some areas and like the corporation we do not have any control over what those farmers do with regards to pesticides ect..We just take them at their word like a corporation that says MSG won't make you fat.

MSG DOES make you fat this is what is used to fatten lab rats for obesity studies...

On corporate food labels all the ingredients are NOT listed there and NOT in clear language,there are chemical names that laypeople have no clue what it is and some food carries a PRICE TAG out of the reach of SOME people..That's reality. This is not an effect of free or informed choices at all on part of individuals and with a contaminated food supply a high price tag and opaque corporations and the FDA in corporations back pockets,education does not change a damn thing.. We find out after the fact when rice is contaminated or mad cow breaks out..Because corporations are about profit not public good. Our human rights are being violated by the food industry.

I'll try to help if possible and able, if invited. One time a schizophrenic brought up some issues, and all he really needed was some reassurance he could trust. One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest was filmed in a real hospital, and one of the things that surprised Milos Forman is all the energy the patients put into trying to be normal. And that begs the question, is that what drives them crazy? In like manner, all the media and politician generated "collective insecurity" could be what is driving obesity. There could be a Catch-22 operating: the more fear mongering by the intuitions, the more we need institutions.

The fourth double-bind. The bizarreness of the three double-binds described above can lead to a fourth. The sequence of mixed messages that throw supposedly schizophrenic people into a living nightmare goes as follows:

1. "You must accept into your mind our assertion that you are mentally ill because you believe that people are trying to force thoughts into your mind."

2."You must believe our self-deceptive statements that we are not acting selfishly when we force you to submit to treatment that you don't want. You must believe we are doing this to you only for your own good."

3."You must believe that we are acting out of love and compassion for the undesirable thing you are."

4.If a person protests about any of the above and tells the therapy staff they are the crazy ones, the fourth double-bind message is: "Your claim that we are crazy and harming you proves how really mentally ill you are. You are so sick you lack insight and don't appreciate the help we are offering to you."

It's real easy to see how the fat police also use this double bind game..

http://www.successfulschizophrenia.org/articles/dblbinds.html

"...trying to devise ways to get Americans more health conscious" (if, in fact, that is the true goal of your panel) and the employment of the mechanisms available to a government to enforce your parameters of "healthy" behavior.

Sinistrous

Single payer / universal health care.

http://www.archimedesmovement.org/

"The Archimedes Vision:

To maximize the healthcare of Oregonians by creating a sustainable system which uses the public resources spent on health care to ensure that everyone has access to a defined set of effective health services."

Pretty subversive, huh.



"You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model which makes the existing model obsolete."
– Buckminster Fuller

and I shudder at people who use the word "lifestyle" in a sentence these days.

Name one place where anyone gets free rehab. Name one hospital where people get to come in and get free medical care for their "partying lifestyle".

Being fat is far more costly to society than any other set of ailments or addictions combined.

Finally, just as soon as medicine pays the bills equally for everyone, regardless of their medical history or loss risk, they can start making demands about how people take care of their bodies.

But until that day, most ideation of "health policing", including UA's, stool samples, hair snipping, semen samples, other DNA analyis is a fucking invasion of privacy. And I don't participate in "that lifetyle", whatever it is and still feel that strongly.

I also find it DEEPLY ironic to see an advocate of "health" equate it to "behavior" in your last sentence. You can be an advocate for privacy without being a dilettante.

I'm on the personal responsibility sub-committee. All of the things you mentioned have come up.

The general consensus is that the "health police" model is neither desirable, nor workable, as the cost of enforcement would quickly surpass the cost of services rendered. Plus, this IS America.

We do however have a serious health care crisis in this country. Screams of "Gesundheits-Polizei" are in no way helpful to the process of constructive dialog.

Actual belief in the concept of personal responsibility is just my own peculiar quirk. Don't read too much in to it.

On edit: You'll not like the other general consensus, Sin tax seems the way to go. A point of use tax on alchohol and tobacco is the most obvious. I like the idea of a fat tax on packaged foods too.

Double edit: "Lifestyle" was a poor choice of words. I forgot that the term has strong connotations, I was using it in a very narrow sense. My bad.

I have eaten. I have blood sugar again. Everything is golden.

I'll try not to bite anyone or give them rabies ;)

What you said: I'll go for that.

Here's my take on "sin taxes" though - the revenue from those taxes does nothing to pay for the costs associated with those luxuries. When those "luxuries" are no longer chic or affordable, the revenue base declines, but the budgets predicated on that revenue do not.

So I think we need an "honest" income taxation system. Everybody pays in fairly, according to their relative means. A portion of that goes to federal, a portion to state, and a portion to local/muni.

Law enforcement exists to guarantee public safety, so it burns me up to see the caravans of radar guns every month for quota; like they're hunting in a herd. They have no real interest in making traffic safer, just harvesting it for revenue.

Homeowners in Texas pay outrageous taxes on property, some of which goes to the hospital and educational districts, yet the hospital districts operate at a profit and can place a lien on your home for emergency care if you show up without insurance. If you benefit from "free" medical care when in actuality you earned more than 12,500 a year, you can be charged with felony theft of services, at the COUNTY hospital.

We have a state here that doesn't want to raise the sales tax a hundredth of a penny or tax income, yet complains bitterly that there isn't enough money in the education budget to pay for schools that aren't 80% unheated corrugated annex in the poorest districts.

We have fatcat republicans tickling greed and selling tax cuts for political gain. We have a thousand places in our current system that require shoring up, pasteurizing, and real budgeting but we have a real way to build a universal health care model too, all external factors considered.

Those external factors that would actively oppose it are the administrators of HMO's and insurance and HMO shareholders and investors. The policy underwriters who are paid fee basis according to their reduction of risk push more and more aggressively to find a way to only insure no-risk people (in everything), because apart from randomly raising premiums there is no other way to build margin and increase growth, and share value. We have to dispense with that. Actuary should be a dry statistical exercise, and HMO's should be heavily regulated fee-paid records administrators completely outside the line of medical decision, where they belong.

Doctors step out of medical school General Practice with a minimum of $250K in debt - a large chunk of their "income" requirement goes to reducing that debt as quickly as possible, but surgeons and specialists can be in hoc for over half a million. Until we reduce the costs of medical school and the profiteering of publicly traded medical labs, HMO's, and secondary administrators, plus regulate pricing in pharmaceuticals by trading for longer patent agreements (or something fair), we can't reduce what Universal Healthcare would REALLY be paying for, which is not our health or disease but the administration of it.

Incentivize the medical profession - put doctors that do more than 90% of their caseload on Universal into the senior executive retirement program, retire their school debt, and give them debt guarantees on practice development borrowing. There are dozens of things we can do to bring people into the fold and agree that we're all pulling together before anyone wakes up and says "hey I don't want my uppity tax dollar to pay for someone's drippity dick", because treating those things should be no more expensive to the taxpayer than treating bursitis or a sore throat. We shouldn't be paying for heroic lifesaving measures in Stage 4 when regular Universal Healthcare preventative healthcare should catch most cancers and other tragic soap opera diseases early and begin early treatment.

Selectively taxing a few people to treat a few people will never work, and historically hasn't worked. Neither will half measures. If universal healthcare is a value and goal of our society, it has to be one that can be shown not to cost the naysayers significantly more, AND one that everyone else can be excited about participating in (except maybe Wall Street for those publicly traded providers).

Just what the movement needs! Seriously.

Can you agitate and/or organize without risking your professional position?

Are you sure you didn't miss your calling?

Can I buy you a cookie?

:hi:

I work a lot behind the scenes - but in real life am employed by Wolfram & Hart (aka Angel) for other talents. I get to bring a voice of reason to the "senior partners" there too, and we do some good that way as well.

fat is more costly than the other ailments combined. In fact, I think that is a serious overstatement. When you look at substance abuse, cigarette smoking, alcoholism, heart disease (not all heart attacks are in fat folks), car accidents..

I am not looking at the data, but that's my impression.

but there is a cost to society if society measures such things, and end of life care and shortened life spans are part of that too.

I know that in a non-ambulatory society where we take elevators and drive to the corner store and are surrounded by available food, holidays, special occasions, late night eating after long commutes and stress from inadequate sleep it really is hard to NOT be overweight.

TG you know I'm not totally off my rocker :hi:

but when the comparisons of "indulgence" start flying it is fair to include that too, however it happens.

I really really want universal healthcare though, and the real thing. It can only make us a healthier and happier nation and if we do it right nobody will really lose (except maybe outrageous profits on wall street).

And who decides who's lifestyle is not worthy.. Some people think gays carry aids and want them to be subjected to EX gay ministries for changing their unhealthy "offensive"lifestyles.. WHO DECIDES what lifestyles are evil here? ..The Lab coats ,The Churches, some "experts",the bean counters..WHO?

And who has the right to DOMINATE my life that way.

Saudi Arabia has VICE police too enforcing a strict lifestyle just because it's not about food you can see how sick it is.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/undergroundpanther/18
But apply it too food in a fat phobic diet neurotic nation where corporations pollute everthing..it's stupid.Go after the corporates not the people forced to eat the shit they sell DAmmit. We don't need VICE POLICE.

I am a grateful slave.
My master is a good man.
He gives me food, shelter, work and other things.
All he requires in return is that I obey him.
I am told he has the power to control my life.
I look up to him,
and wish that I were so powerful.

My master must understand the world better than I,
because he was chosen by many others
for his respected position.
I sometimes complain,
but fear I cannot live without his help.
He is a good man.

When I see shit pushed under the banner of public health..Items like women must live like they are"pre-pregnant forever ,Or the FDA wants to control portion sizes in restaurants, All the junk science about weight and fat.. I can't help but think back to the NAZIS and their obsessions with public health,appearance"purity"and reproduction..

Nazis were "health obsessed" among other sicko things ... and the shit I see being touted by the FDA and some self righteous fat phobics is too similar to what the NAZIS tried to push onto germans for their own good years ago.

Notice in particular how the elimination of homosexuals and other forms of sexual deviance is treated as a matter of*** public health*** This isn’t just a moral issue, it’s a question of medical science: elimination of sexual deviance is like the elimination of parasites, viruses, and bacteria. In this way, its’s no longer necessary to feel any human compassion for those who are targeted by the state. They aren’t people, they are a disease. Their suffering is necessary for the greater good.

Yes fat people poor people who can't afford organics are a disease.. FUCK THE LIFESTYLE/VICE/FOOD POLICE! It's for your own good fascism! Wake up little foodie neurotics!First they came for the fatties...

We haven't talked in awhile!
I know the extraordinary place your in, and understand your defensiveness.

In solidarity. Syncro.

Purrs to you..

Maybe someday the foodie neurotics and other meddling control freaks and dominator types will stop wanting a vice police to make everyone be like themselves and never offend or cost any money or whatever excuses they dredge up out of their narcissistic little egos..to tell someone how horrible or inferior they are,a drag on the economy making the state unhappy or whatever.. ..One can hope people won't be so damn shallow myopic self absorbed and stupid..But I ain't holding my breath ..seems like denial and elitism and bashing the poor weak or imperfect are the way most people deal with the stress of this rising fascist mindset on the right and the left anyway.I think they are too hung up on themselves and insecurities and pleasing others to face it honestly.So many people cannot deal with uncertainty and shut off empathy that scares them too they just gotta make believe and defend the fantasy.. ..as the world crashes down... Oh well I try to get through the bullshit.. I got nothing to lose.
Thanks for being here Synchro..Puurs and hugs for you ..!

Do we care about having free will or just having the illusion of free will?
http://www.optimal.org/peter/freewill.htm