Oh my GOD, literally

do not follow literally what the Bible says! Hypocrites!

yuk.

Because I'm going to have to "drive around" those states... }(

It's almost like asking "Do you believe America is a great democracy?"

Well, if you look at our history, we've had great moments, and not so great moments. Do we look at the big picture, or do we focus on how awful things are lately?

I wonder if some of those kneejerkers just felt the 'right' answer to the question was YES, but if you actually got down to specifics, about snakes, apples, gardens, and an old dude building a boat and shoving animals into it...I just cannot believe that many people are that dumb.

But perhaps I am overoptimistic.

http://moses.creighton.edu/JRS/2005/2005-11.html
Cross-National Correlations of Quantifiable Societal Health with Popular Religiosity and Secularism in the Prosperous Democracies

"In general, higher rates of belief in and worship of a creator correlate with higher rates of homicide, juvenile and early adult mortality, STD infection rates, teen pregnancy, and abortion in the prosperous democracies (Figures 1-9). The most theistic prosperous democracy, the U.S., is exceptional, but not in the manner Franklin predicted. The United States is almost always the most dysfunctional of the developed democracies, sometimes spectacularly so, and almost always scores poorly. The view of the U.S. as a “shining city on the hill” to the rest of the world is falsified when it comes to basic measures of societal health."

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

That rings true. The fundies are so screwed up in one way or another that when someone rebels, they do it with a vengeance. Gotta figure, when they break loose, they really go all the way. They're so repressed that there is little or nothing that will not set them off, and that secular folks have a more creative, fulfilling lifestyle that judges not nor imposes restrictions as heavily upon its followers.

No wonder we are so loved around the world.

BushAmerica:A Step Back Into the Dark Ages

why Arkansas and Alabama are perennially near the bottom of the list when it comes to education. You don't need education if you have belief. The lord will provide, no need for all that 'book larnin'. :eyes:

the South doesn't have to spend as much on books, resources and teacher pay because the cost of living is cheaper here.

I grant you that our schools could be better, but when one measures spending on education between the North and the South, it really is like comparing apples to oranges.

there are probably more homeschooling fundies in those areas, and thus the sciences are short-shrifted along the way. But let's face it: we still need janitors, fast food restaurant employees, sanitation department workers and other jobs which don't require scientific knowledge.

and generally poor states

Living in Arkansas isn't as terrible as you imagine

and aside from your snarkiness, Arkansas is a beautiful state, we have good schools, but we have a chronically underfunded school system.

In fact, the state has been habitually in violation of a court order from the State supreme court to improve education and funding.

Lots of the problems involve the historical idea that every berg and village in the state has tended to have their own school district. They have resisted consolidation strongly, and have created co-ops to try to share their resources among small districts instead of consolidate.

My opinion on Arkansas schools is that we need consolidation of administration, and districts in order to create an equal playing field for schools whether they are in the middle of the Ozarks, downtown Little Rock, or in the heart of Wal-Mart territory Bentonville.

We've had a Repuke governor who along with a Dem legislature, have failed to produce an education plan that has satisfied the court order. It is politically more expedient to give it to the courts under a special master to oversee the school systems revisions. However, even that hasn't been enough.

Our teachers have gotten raises over the past couple of years and the schools are doing better than they were, but they still aren't equal in all areas of the state.

Bu*h's NCLB hasn't helped the situation one iota.

Rural and agricultural communities doesn't equal ignorance, and Arkansas has moved up the list some!

they have no right to force that belief on others.

ever been there?
My ex is from Alabama - his whole family are fundies and they are educated, well-off types. It's pretty weird. :shrug:

...I have come to the conclusion that some people remain conscientiously ignorant. This is a way of pretending something does not exist.


I do have sympathy for people who have been purposefully kept from knowing things ~ but I would still say in some cases, if you can read, you can learn anything, therefore if you refuse to learn anything, you might as well be illiterate because that skill is a waste for being ignorant on purpose.


My 2 cents

Cat In Seattle
Edited for clarity

The problem is when their superstitions cause them to write laws that affect others.

I'm not trying to diss anyone's religious beliefs, but this blind faith in the literal Word is scary.

I love the irony of some of the folks using the internet to promulgate these bass-ackwards views.

The earth is only 6000 years old! Science doesnt have all the answers!! Be sure to register with your email so I can spam you more truth about how technology is all based on lies! Check out our weekly Podcast sermon where I Reverend NutJob J. McFundie rail against Hollyweird and the perils and pitfalls of science!

When someone ignores the truth or facts, especially intentionally, they need to be horsewhipped.

...you go straight to hell.

My Pastor always tells me how to vote!! The Good book is good for lots of stuff, especially getting rid of warts!

Whammy!

Fundies believe out of fear — not so much of eternal damnation, I think, but the fear that what they believe in may be false. They follow blindly, afraid to question The Word because to do so would be to call into question their entire belief system. And that's a frightening concept for anyone.

Didn't their god say, "Without faith, I am nothing"? And without their god, they are nothing — or, so they think — so their faith is not to be questioned.

That's an excellent point. Did the survey explain that? Quite frankly, I skimmed the article and didn't delve too deeply in it.

"I literally died!"
"My jaw literally hit the floor!"
"I literally had, like, a million e-mail messages!"

Some people seem to use the word for emphasis.

I don't think anyone who answered "yes" to that survey would agree with a statement that the Bible was false. But if they were asked specific questions about things in the Bible (I don't know what exactly, maybe "Do you think God actually took out one of Adam's ribs and used it to make Eve?"), I don't know that 75% would say "yes."

If you think the bible is a literal history, you are a dumb ass. Period.

Simple as that. The Catholic Church does not teach the Bible as literal truth. This is why the states, like Massachusetts which have a large Catholic population, say they don't believe in the literal translation of the Bible.

I guess a lot of people don't realize this. It is has nothing to do with "heathen" liberal states. I am sure the Fundies will try to spin it as such.

is a big stumbling block with the uneducated. To maximize it's appeal and spread, fundies just don't bother with that distinction and just stick to their guns. 100% factual! Every page!!

Yeah the bible is so factual that it's more accurate than a video tape of the events. No way that there has been any non-literal truths within those pages. Over the millenia the text itself was protected from drift of meaning and sloppy translations by its inherent holiness. :eyes:

As I said below, I'm a Tennessean and was never taught the Bible was the literal truth - but, I'm also Catholic.

who believes in a literal interpretation of the bible.

I can find you LOTS of Catholics who believe in a virgin
birth and a flood that killed "all the people on earth".

Simple as that?

I think not.

there was a talking snake in the garden of eden?

... a talking jackass in the WH??

I am in the 25% on the other side in Arkansas...

Christian, I was never taught the Bible was literally true - that is was a series of stories and parables set out to explain the word of God.

Again, I ask, who do they poll when the pollsters conduct polls? I never get asked about who I would vote for. I never get asked about crap like this, either. The only polls I get are spam emails asking if I like Coke better than Pepsi.

And I'm from Arkansas, a southerner, and a Christian
and I know few that are really bible literalists

it is possible that people say what they think they are "supposed" to say.

I'm really skeptical of this

it also says that 54% nationally think it is true literally

I say bullshit

I think there is an amazing amount of wisdom to be found in the Bible and have learned much from it. I do not share with them, however, a belief that much in there is to be taken literally. But if they choose to do so, based on religious freedom, they have every right to do so. As a Democrat, I believe in tolerance of others and their beliefs and I believe that applies to this as well.

It constantly amazes me that there is so much bigotry on a progessive board. Most of the bigotry seems to be centered toward those with faith and Southerners. This thread is a double whammy.

It's like people here don't understand that most Christians aren't fundie nuts and anywhere from 42 to 48 percent of the Southern population didn't vote for the jackass in the white house, either. It's just that there are slightly more Republicans than Democrats here - that's all.

If people were saying they hated believers for BEING believers, then that would be bigotry.

There is no bigotry involved in denouncing someone's chosen beliefs, unless you are denouncing them for having beliefs, period.

Please stop misusing the word "bigotry" when it doesn't apply.

Firstly, let me state that your level of intolerance towards others and their belief systems is at the least shocking to see on a board such as this. Your opinion on religion is no more valid than anyone else's, so the fact that you can declare things that aren't consistent with your beliefs as idiocy shows a sentiment rooted in intolerance and ignorance.

As far as preaching ignorantly goes, you preach about bigotry as if you are well versed in its definition. Yet you proceed with statements that are simply inaccurate as they apply to the definition of bigotry. In fact, it seems that you don't know the real meaning of bigotry at all. Allow me to share it with you:

big‧ot‧ry  /ˈbɪgətri/ Pronunciation Key -
1. stubborn and complete intolerance of any creed, belief, or opinion that differs from one's own.
2. the actions, beliefs, prejudices, etc., of a bigot

—Synonyms 1. narrow-mindedness, bias, discrimination.

big·ot·ry (bg-tr) Pronunciation Key Audio pronunciation of "bigotry"

n.
The attitude, state of mind, or behavior characteristic of a bigot; intolerance.

And in case you need the definition of a Bigot:

big‧ot  /ˈbɪgət/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
a person who is utterly intolerant of any differing creed, belief, or opinion.

big·ot (bgt) Pronunciation Key Audio pronunciation of "bigot"

n.
One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.

Believing that the bible is literally true, when reality itself has demonstrated that it can't possibly be literally true (see my example about rabbits above) is idiocy.

I will never apologize, or suffer one iota of guilt, for viewing things that way. I have no problem with believers being believers, or even believing stupid things. But there's no requirement that I respect their beliefs, and I won't pretend to do so.

If you dislike that - tough. You'll get over it someday, I'm sure.

Good day to you.

to believe in whatever entity or belief they wish to believe in. I draw the line on their influence in the white house, their attempts at subjugating the beliefs of everyone else who does not believe in the same things they do, and their insistence that "under god" remain in the Pledge, the words "in god we trust" remain on currency and that the U.S. is supposedly a "christian" nation.

Or, most of us, anyway. It's a given.

That doesn't mean that their opinion is correct, though, and it doesn't mean that we're not allowed to say that it isn't (see our own 1st Amendment rights).

I tend to agree that one can find some great stories in the Bible. Jesus himself was quite the role model. But believing every word in that book- literally- is ignorant, and ignorance is dangerous. They have every right to their opinion, but we also have a duty to counter ignorance- through productive discussion- where we find it. The right to one's personal opinion was not conceived by the Founding Fathers, who believed in the rigorous discussion of ideas, as prohibiting criticism where it is due.

and its legal because they passed a law making it ok, based on a Bible passage they found.

the fucking fundies are doing their best to take over the world. Assholes need to be strung up--in whatever manner that hurts the most--and left to rot. Then let's see their precious, vengeful and intolerant "god" come and rescue them. I have absolutely NO SYMPATHY for any idiot stupid and dullwitted enough to believe that the bible is a non-fiction document. They're the REAL whackos in our country. Fuckers will do just about anything to justify their hatred, their intolerance and their own failings.

history, a wealth of obscenity, and upwards of 10,000 lies." Mark Twain

My father said that the bible was a book of contemporary novels of those times. He was an atheist (as I am), had a genius IQ and had read the bible cover to cover 7 times. And he said it was the most obscene book ever written.

archeology has shown that many of the places mentioned existed, and some of them met calamity that could have been described as in the Bible.

Just as Homer and the Iliad have some basis in truth, so does parts of the Bible.

My point is, I doubt it is all myth and fairy-tales. I would not spend any time looking for Noah's Ark, or the Garden of Eden; but I would spend time looking for the Ark of the Covenant, and I wish I could grow a garden w/o the usual pests.

There is some history in the Bible, embellished...yes, I'd say so, but no more than what we read today in school about the Revolution. People seem to just 'forget' that Washington lost far more battles than he won, he was the CIC when the Continentals won some very important ones. History is too often written through well used and colored filters.

Hey, literalists? Rabbits don't have hooves or chew cud. 'Nuff fucking said!

(One small example out of many of why the bible is not literally true.)

and I think it is really suspect

I live in Arkansas

I'm a Christian

I'm not a literalist

I know literalists, but I don't see 3 of 4 people being that way.

That happening in two of the dumbest states around? Not surprising. So you may be right, this poll could be erroneous (ironically based on the respondents' ignorance).

However, my point still stands: people who believe the bible is literally true are, at best, woefully ignorant of reality.

(And I know you're not a literalist, so you're not dumb in my view!)

I don't agree that Arkansas is one of the "dumbest" states

I may be biased living here and all, but I haven't lived here all my life.

My impression of Arkansas before going to grad school here was that it was a state of dumb hillbillies.

However, it is a state with a wide array of "types" of people, from well educated, to poorly educated; from literalist fundies, to non believing atheists.

This is why I doubt the poll, I don't think Arkansas is "dumber" than a lot of other states.

My bad!

(And sorry to the intelligent inhabitants of both states.)

prejudice regardless of which state you were referring to.

I'm in awe of your level of intolerance and bigotry towards others and how readily you spew your hatred. I'm sure there are many DU'ers from those states. To offend them in such ways, while offering apologies in the same breath, is quite disturbing to find within our DU community.

I hope you will reconsider using such prejudiced rhetoric so readily.

...

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

Now, I'm not so sure it wasn't warranted.

Regardless, good day to you.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=1992081&mesg_id=1994390

Maybe I'm being a bit harsh on you, maybe I'm not. If I am, than you have my apologies. Just understand that I do believe very firmly in trying to be as tolerant of other's beliefs as possible, even if they may border on the absurd when judged from my perspective. I also know there are plenty of intelligent and decent people in those states you condemned and I generally react harshly to broad brush generalizations that result in an attack of some sort.

But maybe I'm overreacting. It's all good.

Peace.

OMC

I think you may have a reasonable point (don't hate on people who believe in stupid stuff) that you expressed unreasonably (you're intolerant/bigoted).

Here's what I decided: if you meant to warn me not to let my refusal to brook nonsense lead into hating people who believe such nonsense, I agree with you. It's tempting to conflate believers-in-stupid-shit with their stupid beliefs (and yes, I consider biblical literalism stupid, and won't apologize for that stance), but it's wrong.

So I will try to remember in the future that, whatever stupid beliefs they hold, they're still human like me and deserve to be respected as human. That's not to say I'm required to excuse or condone beliefs I find repugnant, but I would be lying if I said I'd never held a couple of such beliefs out of ignorance myself, long ago.

I'd like to thank you for the exchange. I think we've both gained something from it. When I say good day here, I say it with a smile. I wish you well, even when we snarl at each other.

There are always going to be passionate discussions or disagreements on DU. What I always appreciate and enjoy seeing is when those disagreements can end in a civil manner with mutual give and take. I have admiration for this post of yours and I'm glad we were able to come to some sort of middle ground. I'm going to try harder in the future to seek that more often when involved with disagreements.

I think you just did a tremendous job framing your position in this last post. I appreciate your position and agree that we both gained something from this exchange. Thanks for the reply, and if there comes a time or place when we find each other face to face, beers are on me.

:toast:

Oh, and sorry about that "you're not a liberal" stuff on that thread a ways back. We could have had a better discussion if I hadn't gotten annoyed.

We may disagree again, but I will strive to make it an agreeable disagreement!

:toast:

I don't know for sure, but I've had interactions with this poster before and I don't consider s/he to be intolerant or prejudiced.

I think it is not true that all people from any state are "dumb" or "idiots" and I hope that they were really just referring to the level of ignorance that drives people to reject scientific advancement and knowledge, and to believe what is in all probability a creation myth (Genesis) that was figuratively an explanation to people of the time of the process of the development of life, etc.

Now, as a Christian, I can stomach that kind of explanation.

I may have the poster wrong, and in that case, your going off on them would be a justifiable thing IMO.

I do see where you are coming from in a post above. The idea that people are "stupid" because they are Christian is not a tolerant one. However, I don't think this poster believes that. If they do, that's unfortunate, but I'm inclined to believe that they are less tolerant of ignorance, regardless of the geographic location.

JMHO

attest to that. I just have a sore spot for any type of intolerance and prejudiced towards others, even when I agree in certain ways to the sentiment expressed. I've always held firm believes that intolerance, prejudice and bigotry towards others is pound for pound the concept that is responsible for more ills in the world than almost any other concept. That is why I take it to such heart when I see displays of it. If those things were wiped away forever, I think it would be one hell of a huge leap towards a utopia type society.

But maybe the poster was just offering more rhetoric than true animosity, which can be understandable in certain ways in our current environment. If that is the case that poster has my apologies, at least to some degrees. But I do hold firm that if the poster truly believes that strongly in condemning others for even their hard to believe beliefs, than I stand behind my words.

If you look just above, I think you'll be able to rest assured that I'm truly not an intolerant person.

:hi:

I am suspect of the way the question was asked

Yes, there are a lot of bible literalists around, but 75%? No, maybe 50%, which is too many.

I believe parts of the bible may be true, but I don't believe that the bible is meant to be taken literally.

I'll remain skeptical that I'm among that many (3 of 4) people that believe the bible is literally true.

No way.

Rasmussen is a Repub tool isn't it?

What benefit will it be to you
if you gain the whole world
but lose your own soul?
(Mark 8:36)
"For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all." (James 2:10)
Jesus warned: "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." (Matthew 10:28)
"When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it." (Ezekial 33:13)
All these idiots believe it's ok to kill for your beliefs, as if defending your way of life is an excuse for not following Gods word. To believe that it's ok to kill in any war is to believe that God gave your leaders a pass they than gave to you. What makes the story of Christ so compelling is he could have destoyed the Romans at any time he wanted. But he didn't, he held to his faith that God meant what he said in the Bible. He knew it was better to die on the cross than to live a few more years as Mans Glorious Victor over the Romans.

They have faith in their religion and it's teachings. It's not a big stretch.

anyone, why is it an issue?

There are folks who believe in ghosts, no one has empirical proof they exist, but why waste my time arguing w/them?

There are folks who believe in a Rain god, I don't, but why should I worry about what they believe?

There are folks who believe the sun moves across the sky of a flat earth, it affects me in the least.

None of this harms people; but there should be a middle ground where people, all people, can make a choice. Regardless of what side of the fence one is on, the other side should show tolerance.

There is something to be said about an old Biblical thing I read a long time ago: "even a fool can appear wise, if he keeps his mouth closed".

I guess that some people will fail to see that science and religion can actually move together in a fine fashion if given the chance. The Believer must make way for truths that become apparent, and the scientist should leave all options open, no matter how odd they may seem. Literal interpretations of the Bible, or any other dogmatic tome should be seen in the light of science, but that does not mean that everything in said tomes is "wrong" or "bad". There should always be some give and take...looking for answers is an art and it requires an open mind.

Who knows, there might be ghosts, and I don't want to get caught off guard...:)

Couldn't quote you two lines from the Sermon on the Mount.

The reason so many of these people are blind followers is because their alleged "Biblical knowledge" is limited to the cherry picked passasges that their pastor chooses for them in the Sunday sermon. And if they have a pastor like John Hagee, Rod Parsely, Jimmy Swaggart, or hundreds of less famous idiots with the same mentality, then they aren't getting an accurate view of the Bible, "literal" or otherwise, because they simply haven't read the book themselves.

...from the responses within the thread. Please, there are many of us who are using dial-up and need a clue to know whether or not it is worth our time to follow your link. Please, in the future, be a good neighbor and give us some info in the OP so that we will be inspired to click on your link. TIA.