Do you believe Bush suffers from schizophrenia?

Here's Wikipedia on schizophrenia:

Schizophrenia is a psychiatric diagnosis that describes a mental disorder characterized by impairments in the perception or expression of reality and/or by significant social or occupational dysfunction. A person experiencing untreated schizophrenia is typically characterized as demonstrating disorganized thinking, and as experiencing delusions or auditory hallucinations. Although the disorder is primarily thought to affect cognition, it can also contribute to chronic problems with behavior and emotion. Due to the many possible combinations of symptoms, there is ongoing and heated debate about whether the diagnosis necessarily or adequately describes a disorder, or alternatively whether it might represent a number of disorders. For this reason, Eugen Bleuler deliberately called the disease "the schizophrenias" plural, when he coined the present name.

Full Wiki page entry:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schizophrenia

Here's what Professor Justin Frank of the Department of Psychiatry at George Washington University thinks:

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/tm_objectid=16974701&method=full&siteid=66633&headline=bush--is-suffering-from-serious-mental-illness---name_page.html

I would have to say, definitely not.

as I am also a sibling of a schizophrenic.

...in 8th grade (long time ago, 70s)who was known to be a schizophrenic who received treatment for it and managed to continue to working, he also taught driver's ed. Bush reminds of him in many ways.

I spent many hours talking to them while I was bartending in college, because many seem to enjoy hanging out at the bar during the day and drinking coffee, and talking either with me or with themselves.

I was a sociology/English major with a Psych minor, so I found the conversation fascinating.

My sister is schitzophrenic. Bush does not display the symptoms of a schitzophrenic. A sociopath, maybe...

the sweetest, kindest and most caring doctor I have ever met. Unfortunately, he missed some of his medications over the Xmas holidays and killed himself because his girlfriend left him. It was really tragic.

And I believe that "armchair diagnoses", particularly performed by non-professionals, are disrespectful to the "diagnosee" but even more to real people who live with mental illnesses. They can also be potentially dangerous.


Attaching the label of a mental illness to an undesirable person insinuates that having a mental illness is bad or undesirable, and only adds to the stigma that people with mental illnesses face on a continuing basis. It also belittles the struggle they suffer when such labels are thrown around so flippantly.

Mental illness is not a laughing matter, nor is it something to use as a means of insulting people one does not like. Diagnoses of mental illness also is something that is best left to professionals in the proper setting and context. I have a degree in Psychology and work in mental health and still would not consider giving an armchair diagnosis.

...the most powerful nation on the planet, and seems determined to take over the Middle East by force, which has so far cost over 2600 American lives and tens of thousands of Iraqis, I find it wholly understandable why a professional, as Mr Frank is, might reason it justifiable to make an exception in this case and share his opinion/diagnosis publicly.

I for one appreciate him doing so.

If Mr. Frank or one thousand professionals provide armchair diagnoses of President Bush, what purpose is served? :shrug:

for leaders of countries and businesses to be functional but deranged. For example, people often don't understand the destructive nature of Narcissist Personality Disorder (NPD) until it's too late. In the case of our fearful leader, it's too late. Great damage has been done.

We need to be able to discuss the mental health of the president. We SHOULD have been open about the mental health of Ronald Reagan while he was in office instead of propping him up for brief appearances and pretending everything was just fine. Same goes here. Whatever you believe about the pResident's mental health, intelligent people should be able to discuss it. Label him whatever you want but bottom line is that he's not mentally competent. A combination of NPD and serious alcohol & drug damage can lead to some very bizarre behavior, even though it is not classic shizophrenia. We need to be able to take advantage of the advances in psychology and medicine to understand how leaders can go bonkers.

You, as a mental health professional, should ALSO be concerned with the VICTIMS of deranged individuals--in this case our country and others around the world. It is not healthy to hide from a reality that is obvious to so many people. "What does it serve?" (I can't believe you could ask that question)...it serves the mental health of the millions of abused who suffer from this administration's insanity. What about OUR anger, OUR frustration, OUR trauma?

We have to realize we have a BIG problem. This country has elevated and promoted a group of people with a very anti-social agenda. Hiding from the problem gets us nowhere.

let alone a particular disorder, unless they perform a thorough clinical exam and tests with him present. Diagnosing a person by watching videotapes and reading transcripts of his speeches is by no means accurate and could be dangerous. Remember when Bill Frist tried to do this to Terry Schiavo?

When I ask "what purpose will it serve" I mean "what will it do to change the current situation". Every psychiatrist in the world could perform an armchair diagnosis and the powers that be will still ignore it. Bush will ignore it. Nobody in this administration is going to say, "Hey--all these people think Bush is off his rocker so we'd better make him step down and get him a suite at a mental hospital."

The only purpose it's serving is to continue the trend of using mental illnesses as a weapon against disliked people, and increasing the stigma against those who suffer from mental illnesses.

...who would choose to share their opinion, but I think the purpose is to alert people that a sitting President is, in his/their opinion possibly mentally unfit to serve. It seems like an effort to raise awareness in the public of a potentially very dangerous situation.

and what I'm saying is...telling people they should not call the pRresident (any kind of) insane because they are not 'professionals' is a silencing tactic.

The American public desperately needs to stop this ridiculous self-censorship (or is it more just wishing for it all to go away like ostriches)? Clearly Our Fearful Leader is pathological and it's perfectly OK to speculate about it and ask the professionals for their opinion.

One thing is confusing this issue. People don't want to discuss Bush's mental condition as this seems like diagnosing him, which people feel unqualified to do. HOWEVER when a leader exhibits pathological behavior it is our duty to question it. You have to see it in larger Social Psychology terms. You can't diagnose the person, but you CAN diagnose the society that put such a man in power and you CAN have an opinion about how such behavior affects large numbers of people. The man's individual pathology
(and of those around him--Rummy, Cheney et al) is now impacting on all of us in profound ways. You can't just sit back and say, "we don't know if he's insane or not." LOOK at the effects.

who have been shouting that Bush is ignorant, incompetent in countless ways, the worst President ever, leading the nation in the wrong direction, completely wrong about the Iraq war, has a God complex, etc, etc. Bush has stated again and again that he doesn't give a darn about polls. Do you really think that he or anybody in his administration is going to care in the least that some psychiatrist (or even a hoard of psychiatrists) who never met him claims he is mentally unstable?

If so, you are sadly mistaken.

...mental instability/illness were for the purpose of swaying members of Bush's administration. Where did you get that idea? I believe I indicated they would be for the benefit of the general public.

As many armchair diagnoses as he's received over the years, people can't even agree on what he has. He has Schizophrenia! He has Antisocial Personality Disorder! He has Narcissistic Personality Disorder! He is a Megalomaniac! He's an Alcoholic/Dry-Drunk!

Look how easy it is to play armchair diagnostician. I used an online personality disorder test and just look at all of the disorders he appears to have:

Disorder Rating Information
Paranoid: Moderate
Schizoid: Low
Schizotypal: High
Antisocial: High
Borderline: Low
Histrionic: Moderate
Narcissistic: Very High
Avoidant: Low
Dependent: Low
Obsessive-Compulsive: Moderate

http://www.4degreez.com/misc/personality_disorder_test.mv?stat=1




OMG! He's Schizotypal, Antisocial and Narcissistic ! He may even be Paranoid, Histrionic and Obsessive-Compulsive! We have to do something! :crazy:

...I'm sorry that you're either unable or unwilling to understand/comprehend why it's important that a sitting President be mentally fit, and that if he's exhibiting behavioral indicators otherwise, that it can and should be a legitimate area of discussion/speculation. I should think the important benefit of calling attention to such a potentially dangerous situation would be self evident.

I think it's far, far too easy to dismiss the person as suffering from A or B or being stupid or what have you. I don't know if he suffers from a mental disorder or not, I don't think we are in a position to judge that. And as much as I dislike what he has done to this country and world, I sure don't think he is stupid. (I am sure I will get blasted for that opinion once again).

Dismissing Bush as something intrinsic to him is more than just foolish - we need to makes sure the likes of him don't happen, and requires good knowledge of causation.

It's pretty obvious to me that Junior suffers from NPD. It's NOT just the personality disorder, it's having such a condition while piloting the "ship of state." I have nothing against people who drink and regard alcoholism as a medical condition, NOT a character flaw. At the same time, I don't want to be a passenger in any vehicle being driven or piloted by someone who has been drinking. The SAME applies to POTUS - it's not the psychological malady per se; it's the fact that someone encumbered with it is in that job!

There's a point at which the 'sensibilities' of not demeaning people who suffer from mental illnesses (which one might regard as me when I was under the care of a psychiatrist after Viet Nam) goes over the line of rationality to jeopardizing public safety. This is one of those times.

and if we don't talk about the "family problem," it will never get solved.

Maybe if we family members talk about it enough, more professionals will get involved.

It's a simple explanation, but one that covers his entire spectrum of odd behaviors.

Schizophrenia is not a joking matter.

...there are people, some professionals, who think Bush displays characteristics of schizophrenia.

I think he displays characteristics of some kind of progressive mental disorder. If you listen to his speeches from when he was Governor of Texas and compare those to his public speaking today, it seems clear that something is wrong.

combined with being a sociopath.

On an off topic note, may I ask the meaning of your sig? Did I read it too fast and miss something?

I don't believe what he has is schizophrenia either but what ever problem bu$h does have is dangerous for all of us and the world.
This man is sick and needs treatment before he kills us all.

but schizophrenia? Unh-uh.

Wasn't up to the job and what happened on his watch...made many mistakes...won't admit them...now under much stress...and deals with it by being closed minded and resolute...making no really new decisions.

(But there is a obvious underlying pattern of previous decisions...of a fascist nature).

Resents peoples negative opinions of him...and might just blow up the world and declare martial law...cause he's the DECIDER...and you're not.

Will hopefully wait until AFTER the election to start WWIII. We can only hope....

So if you think things are bad now...wait for the next 2 years.

Which is precisely what this is, unless the good proffessor has been doing sessions with Bush.

Armchair diagnosis is bad on it's own, but here we also see mental illness bieng used in two unacceptable ways:

1) Using schizophrenia, or any other form of mental illness, to demean, insult or otherwise demote someone's person implies that the mentally ill are not as good as normal people - in other words you are bieng insulting to those with mental illness.

2) People using mentall illness to not believe that someone just like them is doing this sort of thing may be comforting, but it means we won't remove the things that REALLY make normal people act like this. In other words, we expend long term viability for short term gain.

Dx has its uses, and must be carefully wieghed. Armchair Dx is not particularly helpful to anyone.

...the public to the possibility that we may have a President with a serious mental illness. I don't think his intent was to demean or pay an insult. Bush makes decisions that affect peoples lives, and most people believe he has made horrendous decisions that have unnecessarily cost thousands their lives.

You may recall that President Reagan suffered from the mental illness Alzheimer's in his last years as President, which was not shared with the public at the time.

Does the public have the right to know if the President of the United States is mentally ill? Do you think Bush's doctors would share this information if he is?

For people (professional or not) to speculate about Bush's mental health, particularly in light of his noticeably odd public speaking mannerisms and behavior compared to what they were when he served as Governor of Texas, and in light of the fact that he misled us into an illegal and unnecessary war that has cost thousands of lives, does not strike me as improper.

1) The professor may have noble goals, but in reality armchair Dx adds nothing to a debate - Why? Because it is freaking unfounded! What part of that is so difficult to understand? Zero credibility, no reason for anyone to believe it.

2) Do I think any doctor would share personal information against their clients consent? I fucking hope not. Do the public have a right to know? Lemme think - do the public have a right to know about the sex life of a president? If it meets the DSM-IV it would carry itself outward in behaviour in a way that, while not seen as sign of illness, would make him ineffective as even a puppet leader.

3) Right - I hear you loud and clear.... if a president lies, it is fine to speculate about anything at all to do with them, in fact it is proper to engage in rampant, unfounded speculation. Wait - run that past me again? I could have sworn you just said
"For people (...) to speculate about Bush's mental health (...) does not strike me as improper."

I heard Bush had an affair! You can tell from his "odd public speaking mannerisms" that he has! And what's more, you would actually use "odd public speaking mannerisms" as evidence for mentall illness? Run that one by me again, would you?

From here, it looks like:

odd public speaking mannerisms = mentally ill

and

lied = mentally ill

And do you know what that looks like? Someone not wanting to believe that they would do the same in the same situation.

...health based on observations in their behavior, even when that someone makes decisions that profoundly effect our lives? I don't see anything improper about it, although I'd certainly agree that it doesn't count as a professional diagnosis and shouldn't be used that way. The poll doesn't ask for a professional medical diagnosis---just what people believe based on what they know and/or have observed.

I have to disagree with you that the public doesn't have the right to know if a sitting President is mentally fit to serve. I think we do have that right.

If you compare his speech during his years as Governor of Texas to his public speaking and mannerisms today it appears there's something wrong with him to me. No I wouldn't set that forth as conclusive evidence, but I do think it justifiably raises the question of his mental health. I don't believe I equated odd public speaking mannerisms with mental illness as you suggest.

Sorry, my browser just wiped my post after me spending a long time editing it and making it good. It would have been special.

FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK.

That was annoying.

Ok, I won't retype the whole thing, so here is the tail end:

If you don't suggest that odd manners are an indicator of mental illness, then why do you suggest that people speculate about his mental health because of them?

I don't believe I used the word "equating" but who cares - I am tired and annoyed at computers. In fact, good night. It is bedtime here in Aus - will be Friday very soon.

...symbol for equals (=): "odd mannerisms = mental illness," which I felt was a mischaracterization of my remarks. Maybe you didn't intend it to mean equate.

I do think Bush's odd mannerisms and broken speech, particularly compared to his public appearances 10 years ago, may be an indicator of mental illness. I do think it's a legitimate basis for discussion and speculation about the man's mental health, given who he is and the importance of him being mentally fit.

rational intelligent people are told that they cannot see or say that the pResident is mentally unbalanced. To act like the mental health profession is the only entity qualified to even SPECULATE about the pResident's mental health is demeaning and pompous (and very convenient for right wing extremists). We have a right to armchair diagnose as much as we want. And it looks like we should, because nobody else has the guts to say what's right in front of their eyes. The pResident and his cronies are mentally outside the range of what we expect and deserve as leaders. They are heavily armed and dangerous.

I don't think that anyone on DU would say Bush isn't an unbalanced person. However, he has absolutely no signs of schizophrenia. The misuse of that word is simply wrong, as it creates a false impression of what that disease is, and is unfair to those people who suffer from schizophrenia.

If Bush has any organic brain issues, they would most likely be the result of his previous years of substance abuse. However, almost without any exception, his unbalanced behaviors fall into the category known as "personality disorders." In other words, he's inflicting the basic "skills" he learned within the context of his early family life, on the rest of society. He's the kid who never had to work to get not only his basic needs met, but to havbe every whim catered to. He was raised to believe he is from a superior breed of humanity. And he never learned that he has the capacity to be wrong. Add to that a cruel and hostile view of the "under classes," a cowardly nature, and some really unhealthy conflicts with his image of his father, and you have the president.

I'm NOT saying he's schizophrenic. I have NEVER in this thread said I think he is schizophrenic. I DO know what schizophrenia is. Good Grief. :shrug:

What I am responding to is the view that he is not disordered, or that we can't discuss his mental condition at all (because we "do not know" or we are not professionals). I do see that view here, although I'm sure most would agree that he is unbalanced, even pathological or some form of mental illness. If you look down this thread you WILL see the idea expressed that Bush is just misbehaving, or somewhat aberrant, or "bad" or "evil," rather than mentally deranged. And a lot of people do not understand that "personality disorders" can be quite severe and destructive. Otherwise I agree with you.

Please don't make assumptions about where I'm coming from without understanding where I am coming from.

are responding to that - it looks a LOT more like you are responding to someone who said "a degree does not give you the right to armchair Dx" with "How dare you say only people with degrees can armchair Dx!!!!"

I never said I diagnose B* as schizo--I said we can, and should, talk about (discuss, comment on as intelligent humans) his mental state without having 3 degrees in psychology. This is hardly a controversial statement.

Here's a well-researched article I found that you might appreciate, written by a psychologist. I'm more interested in the EFFECTS of living under a repressive cult-like regime than I am about the exact diagnosis of Our Fearful Leader. He's on the fringes of sanity, for whatever reason. But so are the NeoCons in general, so this isn't about B* alone. This article makes that connection. It also mentions schizophrenia (disclaimer--I never said I believe he is a classic shizophrenic, although some of his behaviors may overlap at times).

http://www.metaphoria.org/ac4t0509h.html

September 2005, Volume 13 Nr. 8, Issue 176
Dr. Bush and Mr. Hyde:
The Fundamentalist Shadow of George W. Bush

John D. Goldhammer

Excerpt:

"Like it or not we are stuck in a psychological dilemma fueled by the collision of two toxic groups—groups with deadly shadows created by literalized Christian monotheism and literalized Islamic monotheism—both fundamentalist, both virulent strains of group-think, both after mental territory, economic and political power. When one group’s god is the only god, all other gods must be inferior. When one group’s political view is the only view, all other political systems must be inferior. Consequently, intolerance is one of the chief characteristics of the fundamentalist political shadow. In this manner monotheistic religions, like a contagious disease, spread violence and immoral behaviors. The fact that fundamentalist cults, whether Christian, Islamic, or any other denomination are able to recruit and brainwash legions of followers illustrates a confounding global illiteracy about rudimentary group dynamics.

One of the symptoms of fanaticism is the belief that one’s mission has been “blessed or even commanded by God,” says Dr. Norman Doidge, professor of psychiatry at the University of Toronto. George W. Bush, according to the Israeli newspaper Haaretz, told Palestinian Prime Minister Mahmoud Abbas, “God told me to strike at Al Qaeda and I struck them, and then he instructed me to strike at Saddam, which I did, and now I am determined to solve the problem in the Middle East.” For most psychologists, Bush’s “God made me do it” sounds a lot like schizophrenia, a malady defined as “a group of psychotic disorders usually characterized by withdrawal from reality, illogical patterns of thinking, delusions, and hallucinations.” In every sense of the word, destructive, group-based beliefs are the real weapons of mass destruction that we all need to be very worried about.

“God wanted me to be President,” said George W. Bush. “God is my co-pilot,” went a World War II slogan. In World War I, “Clergymen created posters showing Jesus dressed in khaki and firing a machine gun.” The bishop of London urged his fellow Christians to “kill the good as well as the bad… kill the young men as well as the old… kill those who have shown kindness to our wounded as well as those friends…” —Christianity’s militant shadow! Regarding Iraq, Lieutenant General Boykin declared that our “spiritual enemy will only be defeated if we come against them in the name of Jesus.”

“We are in a conflict between good and evil, and America will call evil by its name,” Bush declared when announcing his “strategy” for his evangelical crusade” Thus, warfare is applied theology. And from either side of the bloody plain, “every war is a just war, a battle between the forces of good and evil,” a ghastly, incurable, repetition—the darkness of utter evil created by what appear to be the noblest of ideals." (snip)

1) I said that having a degree in psychology does not gave you magical knowledge about how another person thinks.

2) You said "NO! You can't say that only people with psychology degrees talk about mental health!" (Which I take to mean that we have a failure of communication somewhere)

Which is not what I was saying, nothing to do with what I was saying. I said that degrees does not equal magic powers, not that only people with degrees can talk about mental health. Sheesh!

Do we now understand each other?

Edit: Quotes:

You: "I said we can, and should, talk about (discuss, comment on as intelligent humans) his mental state without having 3 degrees in psychology."

I said: "Degrees don't qualify a person to make an armchair diagnosis."

I never had ANY "conversation" with you mate. I replied to someone else and you parachuted in. So I responded in a general way. But I see you're only interested in diversion.

Sheesh. No need to respond.

Unless I am misreading names again. :(

Eh. These threads come and go. We'll talk next time - I gotta go for a while.

I say that even people with degrees don't have the right to give a Dx when they have not had sessions with the patient, and you tell me that I say "people with degrees ought to speculate about his mental health, and no-one else should"

I'd love to see you back up your little assumption.

smart and confident.....its all BS guys,,, this Bush is Brain damaged beyond repair.

Surviving because of his Daddy.

auditory hallucinations often are indicators of a psychotic break.

he may have some kind of schizotypal personality disorder.

the RW fundies on his side. I don't think he believes it for a minute, unless he's been playing it so long that he's bought the lie himself.

Even lay people can see many red flags in this thinking and behavior. And his substance abuse history is well known. He is exhibiting some signs of psychosis, and other mental illness. And he is the most powerful man in the world.

We should be asking many questions. (And while we are at it, we should also look at the VP too, who looks like he has narcolepsy related to his chronic heart failure, and now Rummy is ranting about Hitler. Something is very wrong.)

Many employment settings require drug testing, psych evaluations. Why not for the people who run the country?

know that my aunt who had Alzheimer's started showing symptoms when she was younger than Bush is now.

He seems to be advancing in some type of problem that is affecting his mental capacities.

I don't think the public will find out about it in his lifetime - unless it is something that cannot be hidden re: Reagan.

History may tell all, unless it can be covered up even that well. Of that, I'm not sure.

He is arrogant and spoiled. He's the Decider! Nothing is as important to Bush, as Bush himself.

and he acts accordingly.

Spuffet's disease...

When one's face, looks so much like one's ass, he or she, don't know which way to turn.

And shrub's about as acute as it gets!

1. sharp or severe in effect; intense: acute sorrow; an acute pain.

I've thought that since the "pretzel" incident. They are keeping some heavy secrets from the American people, in my opinion.

he suffers from what they all do; evil.

on this scale within the normal range of human behaviors? So should we see sadistic behavior as "evil" and treatable mainly by exorcisms?

You are implying that labelling behavior "evil" makes it appear more normal and natural, and something we should expect in leaders and can do nothing about. I don't believe that is true.

Why imprison murderers and rapists and the like then? Afterall, they're normal. Antisocial authoritarian behavour I suppose is perfectly normal as well since there have been these people in the past? I don't think he suffers from schizophrenia but I'm not a doctor.

you are making the distinction that sadistic, exploitive, antisocial behavior is "evil" as opposed to pathological. I am questioning the use of the term "evil" as it implies that the devil is in him and all we need is a good exorcism to drive out the demons. I am saying that the term evil is nebulous in this context.

schizophrenia is a diagnosis. One can exhibit evil behavour by normal standards and not have schizophrenia. One can be dishonest and power hungry without being schizophrenic. One can be calculating and have false and authoritarian beliefs without schizophrenia. I can call them evil if they are that to me. I can't make an accurate diagnosis as to the other but it would seem someone could and pass that information along at some point in bush's life to others.

is "evil" pathological?

Or as somebody says below, "Is the Devil sane?"

Is Saddam sane, is Bin Laden sane, is Kim Jong Il sane? is Stalin sane, is Hitler sane, is Mussolini sane, is the Bush administration sane, are any despots sane?

You seem to be saying that the pResident is "evil" but not insane. At what point do they intersect?

----------------------

Here's an article (excerpt) about Kim Jong Il, a man you might clearly define as 'evil.' (And so isn't he also insane?) :

"There are countless behavioral clues to alcoholism in Kim Jong Il. He inflates his ego at every opportunity, from statues of himself in practically every public place to the required picture in every home. He feeds his ego with a perpetual threat of war against far more powerful nations. He fuels it by threatening to bathe Japan in a sea of nuclear fire should the big, bad U.S ever attack his small country. As "The New Yorker" points out, Kim Jong Il exploits his country's secrecy by keeping "the outside world uncertain and off kilter while he stage-manages the crises he creates." Ask anyone who's ever lived with an alcoholic and you'll find this is a classic alcoholic tactic.(snip)

The production and dissemination of worthless ideology in Korea, a brand of totalitarianism, nationalism and self-reliance termed "Juche," has exceeded even Stalin's and Mao's wildest expectations in its power to control. Wrapping socialism in an outer cloth of Confucianism, under which the Koreans have been ruled for centuries, has enabled the ruling elite to use both as tools with which to glorify the Kim family. The consequences have been disastrous: a fourth world economy with access to weapons of mass destruction, a populace that mostly believes there is no better place on earth and a megalomaniac ruler. (snip)

One character attribute important to rulers of totalitarian states is charisma, or charm used to personally influence. Stalin had it; so did Hitler until his amphetamine addiction progressed. Kim Jong Il is said to lack charisma, a character trait often used by alcoholics to wield power. Therefore, Kim is rarely seen in public; his propagandists appear to do all the work, attributing all progress and goodness on the planet to him. However, he shares a number of other traits common among practicing alcoholics: he is arrogant, lacks respect for seniors (a serious breach in a Confucian society) and displays a superiority complex. He is described as conceited, haughty, reckless, impulsive, quick-tempered and violent. He is clearly erratic, unpredictable and capricious in wielding power.(snip) http://www.preventragedy.com/PAGES/TAR/003.oct04.html

wicked or depraved.


Since many people recognize this nebulous term whether or not they believe in the existence of a devil or not, I thought I would use it thusly as a descriptive term. I wasn't seeking a battle of semantics. I don't think he has a diagnosis of schizophrenia nor do I think it would escape all who have a more intimate relationship with him including all the doctor's he's seen in his life. I think we are dealing with greedy (nebulous?) ideologically bad (nebulous?) power hungry (nebulous?) people who have the reins of power in this country.

Do you actually trust the pResident's doctors to tell the public anything...(!?) Management of pathological conditions in leaders is commonplace in this country.

Getting away from the term schizophrenia...OK just what IS wrong with him, is it really just garden-variety evil, as in Garden of Eden? Or can we agree on a more neutral word--pathology? (And alcohol syndrome).

The pResident's problems are worse than "greedy, ideologically bad, power hungry." Kim Jong Il is all of these, and isn't he also CRAAAZZZY?

Of course people don't want to say the pResident is nuts. Big resistance to that. But why does he do those bad behaviors then?

"Is the Devil sane" really is THE question of the day.

could he have become schizophrenic before public life? Maybe. I don't think people that behave badly and ruthlessly necessarily have to have a mental illness. What makes him more terrible than many very destructive and mean leaders that have come before him? Or is there another more revealing trait that exposes he may be mentally ill? Are you talking about tics? I'm not saying he couldn't be mentally ill. I'm just saying I need something to see other than being mean, greedy, or whatever other bad behavior as we judge him having.

What is your point?

...one enters the realm of morality. care to define "evil" without reference to a religious or quasi-religious paradigm? "the devil" is shorthand for "evil" (d'evil, hee hee).

Maybe mean? I think everybody understands evil even out of a religious context. That being said, I don't he is schizophrenic. I think a person can behave badly and deceitful and damaging to people without having a mental illness. That was my point.

But we don't go around lying an entire nation into "war" and profiting off of that war, while our people are "left behind." Sorry, that's pathological.

When criminals perpetrate the crimes against humanity that the current administration has done, how can you NOT consider the possibility of illness?

You asked the question and evidently, you don't like the answer I gave. We've been lied into wars before though. Could he be ill? Yes.

The time has come
To say goodbye

Bye bye baby bye bye
Au revoir
Danke schoen
Have a nice day
Hasta la vista

I’m sad
To say goodbye but
Goodbye

Sayonara soshite amen :hi:

If he was diagnosed as schizophrenic and removed from office and Cheney took over, would he be schizophrenic? You would get the same ruthlessness and policies.

Chick chick here
Sick Dick there
Here a sick there a sick
Everywhere a sick chick
-----------------------
Sayonara ne
Totziens
Arrivederci
Merci beaucoup
Te quiero
Ciao

Sayonara soshite amen
Jaa ne
Sayonara soshite amen
Hasta luego
Sayonara soshite amen
Bye bye

(repeat)

n/t

do i think bush hears voces, the voice of god? no. i think that's total bull made up for his christo-fascist base. do i think anyone who could lie and kill without apparent care or remorse is mentally ill? you betcha, no other explanation.

According to normal statistics about 25% of Americans will be affected by mental illness in a given year. By your standards that would add every Neocon and hardcore Fundie in the nation. That adds up to much more than 25%.

anything else?

...outside of one of two concepts: mental illness or demonic possession. when we talk about evil we're talking about behavior so "bad" that we are hard pressed to explain it outside of one of these two concepts. (my personal opinion is that they are essentially the same, anyway.)

do you have a concept besides one of these to explain the level of evil in this administration or historically in others cases?

Schizophrenia maybe some sort of personality disorder, also account for his alcohol and drug abuse, and if both were untreated, it does probably play into his current mental status.

Here's another interesting interview with Dr. Frank, this is what we are dealing with.

http://www.larouchepub.com/other/interviews/2006/3314justin_frank.html

think it is schizophrenia.

I think those around him are keeping a heck of a lot from the American public.

I'd love to see the results of him having his head examined. LOL! I should live so long!

Bush is nowhere near schizophrenic. If you've ever known a schizophrenic person, there's absolutely no comparison. I don't like that people want to assign Bush the most serious mental illnesses because they don't like his personality - it's a backhanded slap at all the intelligent, good people that can suffer from schizophrenia. Didn't Franks at first say that Bush was narcissistic? The two are completely different.

I won't insult those who deal with legitimate cases by suggesting Bush has it to, as crazy as he is.

Just because of the way he talks. His speech patterns are a lot like the dyslexic kids I've worked with. I think that's why people think he's dumb-because he is not always articulate.

that problem also, you also notice how he delegates everything to someone else, and he is protected by an inner core of friends and loyalists. I just wish someone would call him out on this that he does have a mental problems.

This is just a layman's opinion, but I'd say Bush shows signs of being a sociopath and a narcissist, and I'd also say he's probably on a bunch of mind altering substances. Most likely, alcohol's on the top of the list, but there may also be heavy stimulant usage (cocaine? meth?), and maybe also other drugs such as Valium, or even badly dosed psychiatric meds. He could conceivably be as doped up as Hitler was in his last days in the bunker (meth in the mornings, barbiturates in the evenings, a huge cocktail of other substances as well.)

they are managing him....and probably Laura as well.

Things are going very badly. He needs medicating I'm sure.

that's why he can manage to walk around and pretend to be president and people don't notice the trail of dead puppies.

He's got NPD, it's obvious.

There are a lot of things wrong with Boy George, but I don't think schizophrenia is one of them. (I'm not well versed enough in mental illnesses or disorders to comment further.)

drugs, lack of conscience, disregard for others & self-aggrandizement, I think it's safe to say he doesn't suffer from anything.

And I might be being too generous.

Maybe. Major A$$HOLE? Definitely.

my vote is wernicke korsakoff syndrome

assuming that everyone who deludes himself or who confabulates is a schizophrenic is very sloppy, very 1950s/60s to my humble mind -- ronald reagan was delusional and a confabulator and he turned out to have alzheimer's (as i believe most people familiar w. this disease easily recognized from their "armchair")

he is an untreated alcoholic.

he has the psychology of a cult leader...especially re. the NeoCons' exploitation of the Fundy Christian constituency. But the NeoCons also roped in a lot of non-fundies with their Politics of Fear.

Cult Leaders:

"Cult leaders are often charming, charismatic figures with above-average intelligence. The "charismatic charmer" is one of their personalities -- a pseudo-personality. The cult leader(s) is prepared to lie blatantly and obscenely about other individuals or organizations, with total disregard for the truth or any sense of moral objectivity. A frequent tactic by cult leaders is to divert attention from their own sins by accusing others inside or outside their organization of the very crimes of which they themselves are guilty. (In psychology, this is called "projection.")

Only those who are group members are truly good, sane, wise or sober. Since members lose the faculty of critical judgment and the ability to think for themselves, they never question the lies and distortions of their leader(s). Members feel total loyalty to those who have "saved them" and follow in blind obedience." (snip)

"Many cult leaders suffer from borderline, disassociative or multiple personality disorders. Members feel honored to be with, and be seen, around them. But their personality can change dramatically in a flash. Cult leaders are always very disturbed individuals. They are usually victims turned persecutor, having a history of involvement in other social, political or religious cults and/or suffering the effects of a traumatic childhood. Behind their strong and confident exterior (pseudo-personality) they need their leader position to compensate for a very fragile sense of self-worth, self-esteem and self-identity."http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-cult-sos.html

Generally, the onset on schizophrenia occurs in late adolescence to early adulthood. There seems to be a genetic component. You'd see possibly bizarre delusions and hallucinations that would be difficult to misconstrue.

This isn't about Bush's delusion that we're going to win in Iraq.

Oh, and if you saw a family member who had obvious mental health issues, you'd want to alert someone who was in a position to do something about it. This isn't about making a joke of mental illness.

It's about seeing the POTUS deteriorate before our eyes and trying to get some damn person to listen before he manages to unleash the four horsemen of the Apocalypse.

Probably depressed and definitely delusional and narcissism is a character defect.