How about we honor U.S. Grant on his Birthday...

After all the talk of honors for Robert E. Lee, with birthday remembrances at the Capitol, and various holidays in the South, I think it would be appropriate to perhaps honor the man who, after Lincoln, did the most to preserve the Union.

just mention "Useless" Grant. ;-)

his tactics killed more Union soldiers than they did Confederates.

I thought it was Sherman that the south loved to hate.

Had to do with attacking an entrenched force. Had Lee been forced to attacked entrenched forces his casualties would have been as high (as evidenced by Gettysburg).

The "Grant the Butcher" is a familiar refrain from post war Lost Cause historiography. This characterization of Grant was rejected by Lee himself, who always viewed Grant not only as a great General, but a gracious winner!

and a bit of a drunk apparently who had real troubles keeping the Union together after the war...lots of troops sent into areas that caused a bit of havoc from what I gathered.

On the positive note he was quite a good painter and Twain said some nice things about him...

But of course a reflection of the mythology that has grown up around Grant, largely a concious effort by SOuthern writers to denigrate the man who ultimately defeated Lee. Grant was a brilliant tactician, as his defeat of the army defending Vicksburg proves. My understanding is that knowledge this campaign is still a requirment of West Point cadets. Edwin Bearss, probably the preeminent expert on Vicksburg has no doubt it was the most brilliantly executed campaign of the war.

Lee was an exceptional tactician as well, but suffered strategically as his two ill-fated forays into the north demonstrate. Grant had a clear vision of how to defeat the south, and executed it.

As to his drunkenness that to is overblown. There is no doubt Greant did drink heavily at times, but he was a binge drinker. He would go months without drinking, and never drank during a campaign. In this he was no different than dozens of other war leaders. His alleged drunkenness was publicized as part of a campaign to discredit him by Henry Halleck during the war.

I've always seen Lee's failure and Grant's success as directly related to their supply lines and the Agrarian South failing to keep up with the Industrial North. Lee simply did not have the supplies (and supply lines) that gave Grant and the Union the edge. For what little he had, he did well.

But the North had those advantages throughout the war. Grant was the only one to see that the only way to beat Lee was to keep pummeling him.

were different than Hallack's in that he knew the key to defeating the South was to destroy their armies. As long as men were willing to fight, the North could control as much land as they wished, but they wouldn't win. Consider the difficulty in holding western KY and TN as long as Confederate armies could come and cut supply lines. Hallack was very jealous of Grant and was also known as a malicious gossip.

But in the end, once he had lost the power struggle with Grant, Halleck became a very effective administrator and worked well with Grant.

He drank most when stationed at a lonely military outpost on the Pacific in his early Army career, and was separated from his family.

He is said to have had an aide assigned just to make sure he didn't drink. I don't have my Grant biographies with me here at the office, or I'd look it up and tell you his name. Grant's troubles after the war were that he relied on the Radical Republicans to basically handle things, and they did a poor job imho.

This is true, and it worked. Grant was not inclined to drink during an active campaign. It was during long intervals of inactivity when it became a potential problem.

After the war, Grant opposed Johnon's leninent policies toward the South. He tried to use the military to enforc the 14th amendment. It was a noble effort that ultimately failed due to a skittish northern populace.

I knew it began with "R" and I was going through all the names of Civil War officers I knew, and it was driving me nuts that I couldn't remember!!

The three hardest things to do in combat is, third, join two Armies in face of the Enemy (Lee did this at the Seven days with Stonewall Jackson), Second to do a Amphibious operation against an enemy and the hardest thing to do is a Fighting Retreat. Grant did all THREE in the battle of Shiloh, his army was hit hard by the South but it held long enough for it to regroup on a second line further down the hill, this lasted lang enough for Grant to reform a third line at the bottom of the hill (where the Battle ended on the First day of Shiloh). That night he had the Army of the Ohio join the Arny of the Tennessee by an Amphibious crossing of the Ohio, thus combined a Night move with joining of two Armies with an Amphibious operation. The next day he had 2-1 superiority in men and drove the Southern Forces back up that hill forcing them to retreat.

Grant than tried to use nature to win, by cutting a new Channel for the Mississippi bypassing Vicksburg (the move was destroyed by a Flood in 1863 but finally in the 1880s the Mississippi changed its own course and now flows roughly through Grant's proposed cut). Using nature instead of Fighting is something you do NOT see Lee doing, but Grant thought nothing of trying.

Then you have what Grant did after the flood. He sent one union horse mounted forces to attack Alabama and its railroad (nathan Bedford Forest chased after this force and captured it in the Middle of Alabama, two states over from where his forces needed to be to stop Grant). Grant then sent another Horse mounted force though Mississippi to destroy its Supplies to Vicksburg and to further Confuse the Southern Forces in the Area.

Then Grant had Sherman march NORTH of Vicksburg and make the Motion of Crossing the Mississippi to attack Vicksburg from the North.

As the above three forces were moving, Grant took his Army and marched South, cut off from his own supplies lines, cross the Mississippi with that Force and besieged Vicksburg from the South (Joined by Sherman and the Mississippi Raiders). Maneuver through Four States all at the same time something Lee never attempted.

After Vicksburg you have the Siege of Chattanooga, where the Union Army of the Cumberland had Retreated after its Defeat in the Battle of Chickamaga. Grant prepared the Army, improved its Supplies and Supply lines, brought in his Army of the Tennessee and attacked Lookout Mountain in what the Newspapers of the time called "The Battle above the Clouds". The Army went straight up that cliff-side and Drive the Southern Army from the Mountain. Grant continued to drive the Southern Forces from the Area until he was made Commander in Chief of the US Army and went to Washington leaving the West to Sherman.

In Washington he did NOT replace the Existing Commander of the Army of the Potomac, instead made himself over all commander of ALL of the Forces in the area (In effect inventing what is now called an Army Group Commander, 50 years before the Europeans invented such a position to control they ever increasing armies).

Grant knew the best way to take Richmond was from Vicksburg (as McClellan had tried in 1862) but do to McClellan failure in 1862 such a Peninsula campaign was viewed with disfavor in the North, so Grant Solved the Problem by Marching South, knowing Lee will fight him and after every fight just move east and south till his forces reaches Vicksburg. He even fooled Lee in where his forces would cross the James River (after Lee had Anticipated him at least twice, but then Grant out-Foxed Lee in his final attempt to cross the James).

With Vicksburg as his supply depot and his Forces south of the James River, Grant went after Petersburg, the railhead for Richmond. Without Petersburg Richmond had to fall. Some mistakes were made by Grant but very few. One such failure is the Battle of the Crater but that debacle was caused by lower staff personnel who changed the attack plan for they did not want Blacks soldiers to be the first into Richmond. When underground explosions cause a breech in a line the ground becomes to soft to walk in, thus if you do down the middle you go into the deepest part of the Crater and then can NOT climb out of it, attacking infantry trained to fight through such a Crater are taught NOT to go down into the Crater but cross close to the edges and stay high till you make the other side, the Black units had been trained this way, but the lower staff personnel than changed the order of Battle so that White troops, NOT trained, went through first, they went in down the crater and became struck and the Crater became a bloodbath instead of the breakthrough it should have been. The General in Charge had to be fired (and he was the one who had wanted the Black troops to go first) but the lower staffer were also removed. The Battle of the Crater while it appeared to be a Union Debacle at the time, Lee lost as many men trying to hold the breech as the North did trying to take it, men Lee could NOT afford to lose. In many ways Lee lost the Siege of Petersburg at the Crater for it destroyed his last reserves.

Finally Grant's chase of Lee as Lee abandoned Richmond is a Classic use of interior lines and calling in forces from other areas. Lee was to the North of Grant as Lee Abandoned Richmond. Grant kept his army moving as Lee tried to turn his Army South blocking Lee at every attempt to break to the south, and finally Grant's decision as Lee Left Richmond to have Sheridan have his horse mounted Troops south from the Shenandoah Valley to Block Lee from going any further West. This combination of Maneuver, Chase and attack from the Northwest Forced Lee to Surrender. IT is a master stroke of tactics.

As to His Presidency, Grant saw to many Blacks die for their Freedom to abandoned them once Peace occurred. He asked Congress for the 1871 Anti-KKK Act of 1871 (Which destroyed the First Klan) and the Civil Rights Act of 1875 (Which was struck down as unconstitutional in the 1880s but most of its provisions were re-passed in 1964 as the 1964 Civil Rights Act and is now the law of the land). Grant wanted Civil Rights more than anything else when he was President, but to get Civil Rights he had to accept so much Corruption (Most of which started under Lincoln, as Lincoln tried to keep up the Union resolved for the Civil War). Grant just had the bad luck of being PResident when the Corruption finally became to much (Grant's Brother was implicated in the Corruption as was his Father but NOT Grant, if you studied Grant and his father that is NOT hard to see, his Father was a typical Businessman, anything for a Buck, even if it meant cheating, Something Grant Rejected).

Grant's big Failures was his appointments to the Supreme Court the would later destroyed his Civil Rights Programs, his Margin headaches which caused him great pain solved by his Drinking, and his Drinking (Yes, I know of His General Orders Kicking out all Jews from his Command in 1862, but that is tired in with a Visit from his Father to his Command. His Father wanted to use Grant's Position to buy Cotton Cheap so he could sell it at a huge profit and had brought two Jewish Partners with him. The Order Forbade Jews in Grant's Area and his Father's Two Partners left as did his father. Historians looking over his Career and later Presidency know he had Jewish friends and Jews dinning with him, the Order did come up in the 1868 Election but Grant went to New York City Jewish War Veteran Club gave a Speech (Contents unknown) and then it died as an issue especially among Jews. It just Appears Grant issued the Order while Upset about his Father coming to see him. Grant was upset on how his Father plan to enrich himself based on his connection with US Grant. If you ever lived with a Drunk (I have) you may not be able to see how it could have happened, but I can. I can see Grant upset about his Father getting drunker and drunker and starting to say things about his Father's Jewish Partners. As time went on he gets so drunk he ha an order kicking out all jews from his command NOT THINKING OF WHAT IT MEANS. His Staff seeing him upset issues the Orders hoping it settle him down. Grant once sober could not bring himself to rescind the order but waited for Lincoln to do so (Which Lincoln did). Furthermore I can see Grant in his 1868 Speech to the Jewish War Veterans telling them why he passed the Order and asking the Jews to forgive him for honoring his father, thus the General Order stopped being a political issue after that Speech.) Yes Grant had his faults, but being inferior to Lee as A General is NOT one of them.

send it to the other generals.

Grant's administration started the Republican Tradition of Corruption. Some good accomplishments.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Grant

And he was the last President to actually try and enfoce black rights in the South before the end of Reconstruction. Not a great President, but not as bad as generally portrayed.

:shrug: :sarcasm:

and i'm not aware of grant doing much but preserving the culture of corruption, sorry

we have a jack-off thieving drunk-on-his-ass bum for president right now we can "celebrate" if we're that hard-up for excuses to raise a glass


have to pass on that one

Was the preservation of the Union. His problems as President were the result of being to trusting of subordinates. There is no intimation, even among his opponents that he was in any way personally corrupt. I recommend you read one of the fine biography's of Grant which have been published recently.

Brooks Simpson has some excellent books on Grant. Not hagiography, but a necessary corrective.

c'mon i live in the south, more than that, i live in louisiana

my post was my little joke and my way of saying i couldn't care enough about general grant to piss on him if he were on fire

my state would be better off if we were our own country, they take our oil and they crap on us when we're in need, and as far as the union being so concerned abt the blacks, they're crapping on them more than anybody


it is not necessarily a positive thing for all of us that we are only 3 countries in north america instead of several, some of the states are treated as resources to grab for the nation and don't get a fair share back, and louisiana is exhibit number one

so i won't celebrate the union or the general

the united states should be ashamed to use the word "united" in its official name when some animals are still more equal than others

new york dead are counted respectfully and every scrap of bone dna tested, southern dead are swept under the rug and STILL they haven't given us the final toll

so "united" we are not whatever may or may not have happened 140 years ago

Although he wasn't that good in school, he plugged along, trying, trying, trying. The men under his command in the West felt confident in what he tried to do. He and Sherman were the architects of modern warfare, I feel-no holds barred, tenacious, and brutal. Probably one reason Grant isn't revered the way Lee is is because of these tactics, especially when he came East and took over the Army of the Potomac. Remember how many men died at Cold Harbor, left to suffer an agonizing death from their wounds, because Grant wouldn't cede the battlefield. The other reason Grant is not as well liked is the scandals that enveloped his presidency. But all that aside, when he realized he was dying and would leave his family virtually penniless, he wrote his memiors, which Mark Twain published. If you have a chance to get one of the first or second editions, its worth looking over and reading.

And forever regretted it. But the reason for the high casualties in the overland campaign of 1864, was the necessity for Grant to attacked entrenched troops constantly. No one was better on the defensive than Lee (which probably explains his failures at Antietam and Gettysburg). Grant had trouble getting behind Lee until he finally managed to do so at Petersburg.

I know about Petersburg and the Battle of the Crator. I did genealogical research on my step-father's family and found one of his great grandfathers was wounded in the leg there and sent home. He was called back to service before he was recovered, and he was forced to walk from his home near Leroy IL to Springfield. It was very cold and he contracted pneumonia. I got an almost step-by-step description of his ordeal from his neighbors and others who marched with him; he died when he reached Springfield. His widow, who was illiterate, was never able to obtain a pension. There's a lot of sad stories to read in pension papers.

The best wartime memoir ever published. Grant had a very crisp writing style that flowed well.

who partnered with an unscrupulous Wall Street broker following his world tour and an unsuccessful bid for a non-consecutive third term. Grant lost everything investing with this firm. He was forced to sell most of his Civil War swords, honors and souvenirs, and gifts from his 3-year triumphant world tour following his presidency, where he was honored by world leaders and royalty.

It had fallen into shameful disrepair.

Designed by architect John Duncan, the granite and marble structure was completed in 1897 and at the time was the largest mausoleum in North America. Duncan took as his general model the original mausoleum, the tomb of Mausolus at Halicarnassus, one of the seven wonders of the world. A huge public subscription paid for it. Over a million people had attended Grant's funeral parade, held in 1885 and which was seven miles (11 km) long and featured Confederate and Union generals riding together in open victorias, U.S. President Grover Cleveland, his cabinet, all the Justices of the Supreme Court, and virtually the entire Congress. The parade for the dedication ceremony of the tomb, held April 27, 1897, the 75th anniversary of Grant's birth, was almost as large and was headed by President William McKinley.

As did many of his former enemies...too bad that has been lost somewhat, but there is a needed resurgence in appreciation for Grant recently.

Thanks to all who contributed to this thread. I learned more about Grant in the last few minutes than I did in my previous 62 years. :yourock: