DUers attacking Democrats

Here we are , six weeks away from what may very well be the single most important Congressional election of our life times and we have post after post after post of DUers (or maybe freeper infiltrators) ruthlessly attacking Democratic candidates. I find this to be not only disheartening but down right stupid. Those of you out there railing against Democrats don't seem to understand that this bill, that you're so upset about, wouldn't have seen the light of day if there was a Democratic majority. Many Democrats are in close races in areas that lean to the right. In some (maybe many)cases, to vote against this would be to ensure a loss.

This bill would have passed in the House even if every Democrat voted against it. The only thing that is important at this point in time is making sure that the Democrats regain control of either the House or the Senate. Everything else is secondary.

If the Democrats do not regain control of the House of Senate , those of you attacking Democrats here to today can feel proud that you helped give Bush two more years of absolute control.

nt

The world needs more "lerts"

and yesterday and yesteryear.

The party of no spine will not undo anything.

Retroactive grants of immunity legalizing criminal behavior cannot be undone.

.

The same logic that brought the 34 to vote for torture and starchambers and domestic warrantless spying will lead them to not support repeal of this crap.

And when the powerbase is Democratic, then those current center right Dems will find the allure of voting center left.

can strike it down.

We just have to keep clapping three times over and over hoping for Tinker Bell to arrive. :-(

CAN strike it down. They can also uphold this legislation.

But it's not a done deal until then.

regardless of party affiliation.

We are the Loyal No Position Party. I refuse to support tyranny and I refuse to support those who vote to enable tyranny.

What is your line in the sand?

I don't draw my line in the sand at members in marginal districts supporting legislation that would've passed overwhelmingly anyway.

Because that's fuckng stupid.

"Sherrod Brown ahead of incumbent Mike DeWine by 52% to 42%"
http://www.electoral-vote.com/

Yes indeed I see your point. Brown is not even running for re-election in the house, and he is comfortably ahead of DeWine in his senate race.

Our Loyal No Position Party NEVER TAKES A STAND ON ANYTHING. And that, my friend, is what is fucking stupid.

Do not underestimate DeWine.

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It's certainly marginal for the Republicans. And I'd definitely call this race "close."

its a morals issue. some things are WRONG.

Show me a successful politician who's voted his conscience 100% of the time and I'll show you one in a really safe district.

But feel free to hand bush two more years of rubber stamps.

That the same old line the pukes use. "You're either with us, or against us".

Hogwash!

If you do NOT have the power to enforce it?

Why exactly are people supposed to vote FOR Democrats?

Will we be better off with a Republican controlled congress or a congress where at least one house is controlled by Democrats.

If you can't see the difference then you haven't been paying attention.

If this saviour Democratic chamber has no spine for a fight will it actually oppose anything the cabal is doing?

I think you are in for a massive let down if you think the flock of spineless democrats is going to suddenly grow spine if they manage a victory in november. I predict they won't.

I refuse to go along and support Democrats who have voted for tyranny.

You have got to be kidding. It's no wonder we never win elections.

by default. Think about it!

I do not expect our spineless party to oppose or undo anything. That you still cling to your fantasies is your problem.

The strategy that might win this upcoming election
might not be the same strategy that would establish
long-term progressive control of the United States
government.

Tesha

Paying attention to what our leaders actually do, or not do has made me less interested in supporting any political party. Hell I think I will not be voting this election. Maybe never again. It seems rather pointless for a plethora of reasons to broad to even bother getting into.
That is what paying attention has done for me.

When I first found DU I really thought it was as simple as getting Dem's in power. Now I understand that is not the solution. I am not sure what it is but being here has taught me not to hold my breath waiting for a political party to do anything I can really support. It's mostly DUers who refuse to hold our own party accountable that have put me off politics altogether. The past few years of this disappointment has been consistent enough to successfully make me lose hope for change by working within the political system.

These days I focus more on things I can control in my own life. When I see places like DU full of people who don't just care about getting people elected and actually care what they do when they get elected I may start giving a shit again. Until then enjoy the pols people, I will use election day for something that actually matters to my life.

PS fix the machines as well. I don't see myself participating in another election until the BBV issue is dealt with in a meaningful way. I don't really see why Dem's did not attempt to deal with this sooner? It's like they don't give a shit. Kind of like everything else I care about, the party is out to lunch.

If we have to hold our noses while we vote this time then so be it. If we do NOT get back control of at least one house we are fucked and future elections may just be a pipe dream.

How compelling. I concede victory. I bow to your superior logic.

Hell yes - I'd like it all to take a 180 turn right now - today. But a sense of reality knows we're not going to be able to undo all this crap in an instant.

Regaining control of both houses is the biggest issue right now. We will not be able to come up with anything to fix things until we do. So, that's my point. If some of those asshole Dems that voted for it are running against someone with an (R) after their name then they must get the vote.


The primaries are over for this election - we have to put the (D)s in charge or it's over.

THEN and only then we can get to work on weeding out the Dinos.


Sorry, but right NOW there's no other option.

one more lecture from someone who thinks that it's best to just get in line, shut your eyes, close your ears, and just let what is truthfully WRONG go by without criticism or remark.

Toss out any and all scruples and reservations you might have on torture and shut your fucking mouth and vote the party line. Is that what you mean?

edit: I forgot to add roll over and let them take away some of the most fundamental rights and protections from despotism that we have. Gut the Constitution. Apparently people don't understand, or possible care, that it's frigging easy to give up something. It's a hell of a fight to try to win it back.

Who needs habeus corpus and due process anyway?

Do you really think that your intresets will be served by two more years of a republcan controlled congress.

You're just proving my point. Thank you.

And you know it.

Anyone who votes for dictatorial powers for the president does not understand our constitution, and does not deserve to be in office. But that doesn't mean any of us are going to vote for the republican candidate instead. It just means were PISSED, and rightly so.

And while I'd like to think that that's a bunch of bullshit, our experience in 2000 says that enough of them might do it to really fuck things up.

Fortunately, I don't really think there are that many of them.

They're not all clustered down in Florida or Ohio thinking about voting a straight Libertarian/Green/Loony party ticket.

VOTE QUIMBY(D)!

Let your anger help to validate bushes presidency and continue the republican majority..

Are you an absurdist, or what?

Complicity in torture is a War Crime.

Anyone who votes for this "compromise" is a War Criminal.

And the moment that The Hague or an International Tribunal issues an official opinion to that effect, I pledge to take direct, physical action to aid in the arrest of those War Criminals-- be the Republickers, Democrats or Independents.

is no friend of humanity and no friend of mine.


Any democrat who wonders why their people are discouraged should look HARD into the mirror.

Do you think that 2 more years of a republican controlled of congress will will serve humanity? Do you really believe that we will be better off if the Dems don't regain control of at least one house of congress? Are you willing to give bush 2 more years of a rubber stamp congress because you're offended by the way a particular candidate voted?

there is little to differentiate you from those who planned them.

if some democrats dont have any morals either why are we supporting them?

What greater good is served by giving bush a blank check for the next two years.

If you want to take responsibility, then take it. Don't do it half-ass.

I'm a bit conflicted now that Sherrod Brown vote yes on "The Torture Bill". I hate Mike DeWine though.

as much as I dislike Brown voting for this, I refuse to NOT vote for him. We need DeWhine out of Ohio, and fast!

I say let's take back Congress from the NeoCons while we still can (maybe).

Because a bill wouldn't have "seen the light of day" were there a Democratic majority is still no reason to give a pass to Dems who VOTE for it in the absence of a majority. EVERY Dem should vote against the monstrosity--House and Senate.

Who's freaking "attacking" Dems? I'm demanding that my Democratic Party elected officials DO THEIR JOB and defend the Constitution and the law. They don't need to be assisting the Republicans in the total destruction of the nation, do they?

No, I don't give them a pass.

And reading it only pisses me off more.

They're laughing at us now.

and against habeus corpus, you're for republicans that vote for torture and against habeus corpus? What a stretch. What a negative inference.

"You're either with us, or against us". It's bullshit allright.

What gives you the right to go around defining what people should feel and what they should do, and what they are if they don't follow your decree?

FOAD

What the hell do you expect to do then???

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Go Broncos!! Go Broncos!! or whatever.

Its our country we're talking about.

I don't care who voted for torture, they deserve to be at the Hague, whether they're on 'our team' or not.

This sports mentality with politics has GOT TO STOP

will accomplish that? You're right, it's our country we're talking about and if we can't stop bush from carrying out his agenda for the next two years we may not have a country left. The only way to stop the bushies is to regain control of congress. It's very simple but some folks are so blinded by their indignation that they are will to 'toss out the baby with the bath water' (wow, never thought I'd use that analogy).

Call me silly.

We've seen what the enablers in this party do. If they will codify torture, they are beyond any redemption. If they will codify torture, why do you think they would vote with dems if the dems got the majority.[]b]

YOu know what? I'm tired of all this "well just ignore what they do and vote for them because of all the nasty things republicans do"....I've had it up to here and I will go no further. If they want to be the opposition party, then fucking act like the opposition

They are simply crazed, sadistic, sycophants who belong in a prison not in congress.

They should've filibustered. They should've made a stand.

Would you say the same thing if they were passing a bill to legalize slavery?

It's ridiculous to give up congress because a few Dems made a bad vote. This bill will not have made it to the floor for a vote if there was a Democratic majority. You seem to be willing too sacrifice everything that could be accomplished to make a point that will be irrelevent if the republicans continue to control congress.

How did he pass a law? Funny but Godwin does not really have jack shit to say about what anyone thinks abut what is happening in the world today and unfortunately unlike what you apparently believe, we are all LOSERS when our pols are a bunch of spineless cowards.
I am not sure what kind of "contest" is going on here, I am not sure what you are trying to "win".

If it makes you feel better to site godwin or oscam or whatever irrelevant tired logical crutch you may need and claim you have "won" something go on pretending you are making things better.

Is there a law that claims when people site Godwin or Oscam as the basis of their argument they "lose"? Well if not let me be the first to coin the term "Sterlings Law".

We aren't attacking Democrats here. Those that 'ayed' that travesty yesterday, are attacking US. Democrats regaining control can't be the only thing important. I am a life-long Democrat. I work hard in my community early single election year, and in-between. Today, I know we have to clean our house. It disgusts me to try to focus on John Salazar's re-election committee meetings happening here, now, and his horrible vote yesterday. And I believe his brother Ken will follow in the Senate action. I'm not able to encourage others to be involved and keep a straight face, anymore. If not me...who? If not now...when?

that our country and the world will be better off with two more years of a rubber stamp republican congress?

if not now...when? How about when we actually have a majority in Congress and are able to actually accomplish something other then pretty speeches.

Two years ago, I said those exact words - working for, and encouraging others to work for Mr. Salazar's election. Ohhh, lots of pretty, pretty speeches then, and now. Seems like a Republican passed him a rubber stamp and he willingly used it. I understand your belief, though. I admire and respect your passion. I was there, too. Just yesterday morning.

and see the big picture.

Besides, everyone knows the damn thing would pass the house, its the Senate where it has a chance of stopping.

or we should just shut the hell up.

Well, today is the last election cycle's 'Big Picture'. Each election, or non-action time we cave a little, thinking we just need to ultimately jockey for a position that will allow us to turn it around. We have to obstruct this kind of legislation now, not later. We need to stop supporting just the part of a candidate that represents the 'D' behind their name. The rest of my life, I will be trying to turn this past 6 years around. I wanted to spend good , simple time with my kids and their kids - now I have to work on this. Appeasers and enablers are endangering everything that ever mattered to me. I respect your opinion, however. I understand your passion about electing Democrats to office. I have felt that way all my adult life. Now, I feel ... a bit guilty for helping some of them get where their at.

The Supreme Sacred Congregation of the Roman and Universal Inquisition seems to have remnants even here.

:puke:

be more in line with your 'CONSCIENCE'? Do you want to see this bill strengthened? Do you want to see more like it? Do you want to see bush handed even more power?

Our only chance to stem this tide is to control at least one house of congress. You seem to be willing to sacrifice our country to make a point. That's sad.

people who value party loyalty above integrity and attempt to brow beat others into doing the same.

You seem to be willing to sacrifice any principle at all for the faint hope that the spineless Loyal No Position Party will actually stand and oppose and undo anything if they manage to win one house in november. No thanks.

... appalling. It fits absolutely no defnition of 'democratic' that I know of - and isn't even in the same hemisphere as 'liberal.' To accuse another of "sacrific(ing) our country" if they don't fall in line is right out of Big Brother's manual. Such rancid authoritarianism is despicable to me.

Instead, as the party has weakened and foundered in so many cases the number of OPs like the above have proliferated like lice.

... - not accidentally an autocratic position - can be found in almost any organization. The proliferation of such vigilantism betrays an absence of core values and an absence of unifying principles beyond mere power-seeking.

What I'm saying is that we need to regain control of congress to stop bush. If it takes electing a few dems who voted the other way so be it. The greater good is served by stopping bush. How many more soldiers and civilians are you willing to sacrifice to make a point? How many of these types of anti-american anti-freedom laws are you willing to see passed to make a point? If bush gets two years of rubber stamps he's going to go nuts. He's going to think he has mandate from god. Is that what you want? You don't have to support them but you sure as hell should help get them elected if they're the candidate selected by the people.

what a the tortured and bankrupt spiel in support of those who have failed us.

Or do you think it is valid to attack those Dems?

The supreme delusion that there are any 'ends' other than the 'means' so-rationalized infects many, particularly partisans. If corruption were self-diagnosable, I doubt it'd be called corruption. Partisanship, imho, is such a corruption - a delusion that principles and values can be neatly converted into mere chips in a political poker game and matters of conscience subordinated to the faux virtue called 'loyalty.' Hear me well: loyalty is no virtue. When integrity, honor, courage, and compassion - true virtues - are subordinated to the hypocrisies of partisanship, that partisanship becomes truly and profoundly blind. (I merely need point to the history of the GOP to prove that point.)

take care of the individuals at a later date.

Republican control, NEXT we rid the party of those who voted for this bill if need be. The later will take a couple years, but we needn't forget.

Peace and here's to taking back the country, and later, our party.

I do not condone what these Democrats have done but the greater evil is two more years of Republican control. Get the control of the house and then get these guys in line or ignore them. The important thing is gaining control of the agenda. Controlling which bills come up for a vote. Senior Democrats will be in control of the committees.

unprecedented powers that conflict with our constitution and the principles of the democratic party helped the republicans, not us who complain about those that helped them achieve their objectives.

or urge others to not vote for the Democratic candidate then you are voting to give this republican executive branch unlimited power.

That is the core fallacy of teh Democratic Party for far too long.

Too many Democrats seem to believe that doing the right thing and winning are not compatable.

I believe it'd be just the opposite. We can win by doing what's right.

I'll amend that to "We can only win by doing what's right."

What gaineth a man if he inherits the entire world but loses his soul?

I don't know what the denial of one's own conscience could be called other than the loss of one's soul.

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if they vote for the same bills, it doesn't matter which party is which.

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I have no doubt that is why Chet Edwards voted as he did after speaking so eloquently about the establishment clause during the Judiciary committee meeting on the floor the proceeding day. He impressed me mightily with his Constitutional knowledge, the scope of which I was unaware of.

To say I was disappointed is still an understatement. I realize that Chet resides in a tough and Conservative district and is running against a littler dipshit so he has to be tough on terror, but damn! It just kills me. I haven't been running around here pissing on any of the democrats that voted against, it just infuriates me when people get on the stump and start blaming people who exercise their rights for a loss that hasn't even yet transpired. It is unfair and beneath any DUer, IMHO! I am sorry, but that is the way I feel about this and about cussing any Green who exercised their Constitutional and American privilege to vote for Nader. Don't like-that is one's right, but no one has absolutely ANY business badmouthing anybody for how they voted-at least they got off their ass and did so!

I didn't know that was allowed here on DU. So whenever I disagree with you, you'll call me a "freeper infiltrator"? OK--if you're saying it, so will I; calling us freeper infiltrators is a very freeper thing to do.

the habitual passivity and cowed behavior and rubberstamping of the most egregious of the Bush agenda is what costs them elections (questions of election fraud aside). Sometimes you know in the course of history we come upon these certain junctures when it's time to just get down to it and fight the good fight with all one's heart and soul... to grab hold of it and try to shape the future for the better ... petty concerns about one's future career be damned.

Me, I find some of these posts which express utter passivity, powerlessness, and hopelessness ("its no use to stand up to the Republicans, they're too powerful, they control all the media, etc.") more depressing than anything. And in a way, destructive. I think that view is not healthy and does not accurately reflect reality--our communication is nowhere NEAR as repressed as in say China (although even there the truth of uprisings did manage to get around on the internet).

I think we all want to see the Dem party successful in their role as opposition party-- we just have some different ideas about how that is accomplished, obviously.

It's a moot issue, until they vote, we should be PISSED and let them know it.

Good thing you said that

:eyes:

I think most have us have made up our mind as to who we are voting for. If we want to constructively criticize our own party, good.

While I have been and always will be a Democrat, I will not mortgage my principles aon important matters.

After Congress caved into demagogery and rubber-stamped the "Patriot Act", I said that I would never cast a vote for anyone who voted for that abomination. That includes our own Indiana Senator Evan Bayh (D?R? -- IN). I'm not running around town bashing him, but I will vote against him in his next election, even if he is the Democratic Nominee for president in 2008.

I feel the same about this torture bill. I cannot in good conscience cast a vote for anyone who supported this Fascist legislation. I understand that there are Democrats in very conservative districts who voted the way they did in order to keep their seats. They have that right. (My Congressman is a total Bushbot, so it has no bearing on my actual vote for Congrees anyway.) I just think that the American people are repulsed by the idea of torure, except for the inbred Repuke crowd who probably want it on pay-per-view.

By nature, i am fairly conservative in my outlook. Guess that's just my Hoosier roots showing through. I also have the deepest respect for law and know what happens when regimes are allowed to pervert "The Law" to serve their ends. Relatives of mine experienced first-hand the brutality of the Nazis, who were upholding their regime's "Laws". My grandfather made a trip back to Europe after World War 2 to try to locate some of his relatives. They were all gone, disappeared into the death camps. His entire village was gone. Do I think that America has sunk to the level of Nazi Germany? No, but we are slowly starting down a very slippery slope that I don't want to be on.

It's certainly shouldn't be a test of the character of those we elect to represent us.

Too bad about those maimed, screaming, imprisoned, folks. Just practical politics, ya' know. Tsk. Tsk.

Not.



Not interested in strawmen, at least until November.

I don't. Unlike the politicians who voted in favor of it.

because the Republican incumbent (Jim Leach) was one of the tiny handful of Republicans that voted no on the torture bill...that pissed me off.

and I had a choice between some spineless gutless Democratic idiot and a libertarian who votes his conscience, I would have to vote for Mr. Paul. I don't vote Democratic because they are 'my team' I vote Democratic because they supposedly represent my views. When the Democratic Party ceases to represent my views more than some other party, I will have to make a different choice. This issue, like the related Iraq War issue, and the related Terra Laws, are beyond party loyalty.

If I don't like the way that my Democratic representative voted, and that rep is unresponsive to core Liberal values, then I will definitely vote against that representative. I do not buy the unadulterated bullshit that an unreliable Dem is better than a Repuke.

You want my vote? Represent my values.

Sorry, but there is no excuse to condone torture. And while the Dems are in the minority in Congress, there is still plenty that they can do in order to stop this legislation. For instance, they could filibuster and talk this thing to death. They could all leave, make themselves unavailable, thus denying a voting quorum. And they could take to the bully pulpit and rally the people. Instead, they're either debating minutia, or voting for torture.

And frankly, this is an issue that goes beyond party politics. It is morally reprehensible to vote for torture and the suspension of habeus corpus in order to retain your comfy Congressional seat. Each and every member of Congress took an oath to defend and uphold the Constitution. Yet here we see, once again, many Dems gleefully ripping it apart, all in an effort to get re-elected.

And once again we see the apologists out in force here, urging us to suspend our morals, suspend judgement, all in order to advance party politics. How damn despicable that you can overlook torture and shred the Constitution in order to play partisan political games. Have you no shame? Where do you draw the line, when do you say enough is enough. Obviously they haven't gone far enough with the torture bill, you're willing to overlook that. Will you be willing to overlook American citizens getting rounded up and shipped to Gitmo? How about overlooking suspension of the First Amendment, or the entire Constitution. Or will it take government santioned death for you to finally wake up? Or will you simply continue to play the same ol' political game and make more excuses while our country goes down the tubes?

A line has to be drawn somewhere, sometime. Frankly the time and place have long since passed in my opinion, so we'd better start doing what's right now before it's too late and we can't do a damn thing.