CNN reporting all victims of Amish school shooting are females.

All the victims in Colorado last week.....females.

WHAT THE FUCK???

Why? Seriously, why? DU men--any insight into why such hatred of women by some (not all, SOME) men? And why with such violence?

Repressed pedophilia?

Hostility to the idea of educating females?

Too bad he's dead. He'd be fun to pick apart.

I am not surprised actually.. for the environment in the country is now quite fascistic

This is a basic undertone to facism. The woman is basically the "womb" for which they can further the agenda, nothing more. There are a lot of writings out there on the subject which shed some light to this ideology.

If I had to venture a guess about this incident, this guy held some kind of resentment to women and felt that he could stop these girls from becoming women and perpetrating the same type of offense that set him off. Who knows what that might be, but it is clear that this was well thought out before hand.

who WOULDN'T be likely to use birth control or have an abortion or defy the male head of their household.

I like to read about profiling and deviant psychology, so thats about the extent of psych expertise aside from some general psychology courses in college. But I can say that this appears to be motivated heavily upon the sex of the victims and the manner of execution is very telling. This is a very personal act perpretrated by this guy, in his mind he planned this out and selected his victims in order to rid the world of some "demon" that a young girl would likely release on the world. It's too early to tell, but some common reasons for this would be he is acting against woment because he was molested (as we see in some cases with male molestation) or some pivotal moment in his life that was negatively impacted by a female.

It has been said that this guy had a 20 year grudge that he was acting upon. That would make him 12 years old when the incident that started the "grudge" occurred. It's hard to think of anything beyond sexual trauma that would make this guy harbor these emotions for all these years.

If anything, I'd think women in a society that encourages submissiveness would be the more likely targets to the bullying that lies behind hatred of women. A bully won't confront a strong woman.

which set him off to do this awful thing - any word of what this disagreement was about?

He SLAUGHTERED six girls because he was pissed about something that happened when he was TWELVE.

That guy did it last week in Colorado, I am guessing this guy did it as a copycat.

Asking men here at DU as to why a man would kill females is a little strange.

Coworkers, relatives, hopefully not friends.

..is a far cry from what men on DU would know about women haters.

And, it's what the OP said, too -- some men on DU may have insight into a certain mindset because of men they may know. These type of men ARE women haters, and alot are just one step away from doping something like this. Raping a women or beating your wife or daughter is the same behavior as what this dude did.

And I read the OP. I find it insulting that it was seriously asked on DU. Why do some women hate men so much that they kill them? Answer that and you will have your answer as to why some men hate women enough to kill them.

as to why some (fortunately, very few) murder women like this.

Of course, this is only theory, not an explanation of any individual incident, but in a society that not only places a high value on traditional masculinity but denigrates non-gay males who fall short, there can be a lingering resentment. (And yes, there is a distinction made between gay males who fail to meet traditional masculinity standards and non-gay males. Gays are given a pass, to a certain extent, because after all, they aren't "real" men, in this particular worldview. Non-gays have "no excuse.")

Although the resentment logically ought to be directed at the society that labels such men "failures," it is often projected onto the females with whom the failed "man" is compared to, especially females who have taken a place that ought to traditionally have gone to a man, i.e. athletic scholarships for female basketball players, acceptance into an engineering or science post-grad program, supervisory job positions, etc. The rationale is that the verdict of "society" is correct -- society being mostly dominant males of the type the individual wants to be -- and therefore the problem lies not with society but with the evil women who have taken his rightful place.

We still have an American culture that elevates the rugged individual male icon and denigrates the female in many, many ways beyond just the fundamental religious aspects (although that is probably the root foundation for all the rest). Even though many of us as individuals don't think that way, we are very much indoctrinated from birth. (I remember not too many years ago when a friend's young daughter, maybe five or six years old, burst into tears when her newborn baby brother came home from the hospital with a blue ribbon on his little cap. My friend, being an artist, had many paintings with blue ribbons from various art shows, and some red ribbons. The little girl, who had been shown the pink ribbons put on her cap to come home from the hospital, instinctively knew "first place" blue was better than "second place" pink.)

When individuals become so frustrated and angry that they can no longer contain or channel their anger, they lash out, and they generally lash out at someone weaker than they, someone they can control in ways that they cannot control those who are controlling/oppressing/frustrating them. So it doesn't surprise me that a man goes into a school, separates the girls from the boys, and visits his rage upon the girls. Though some of us don't like it or don't want to recognize it, violence against women is still more "acceptable" (meaning, understandable) than violence against men, especially female violence against men. (Men who kill their female intimate partners are less likely to go to jail and/or are more likely to receive lighter sentences than women who kill their male intimate partners. And the numbers of victims and killers by gender are preponderantly male killing female http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/gender.htm.)

There are so many people who just don't want to believe that culture is all around us and affects so much of what we do, think, believe, how we rationalize things, etc. While I would certainly never use this kind of argument to excuse a killer, to say that she/he was right in what she/he did or couldn't help it because "society" made her/him do it, I can understand how it happens. The flip side, of course, is that it's damned hard to change the culture, and rather than do that, we tend to look for easy fixes and easy explanations.

Was the killer a psychopath? Oh, probably. Lots of people get frustrated without going out and shooting up a post office or a McDonald's or a school, and therefore the wackos who do commit these crimes must be, well, wacko.

But just as we're outraged that someone segregates the girls and kills them, we ought to be outraged at the culture, from rap music to tv commercials to whatever, that glorifies violence against women and dismisses women as only valuable for their sexual capacities.

In the minds of many men, including some I know (and wish I didn't!), women are expendable.


Tansy Gold

That's all. Just wanted to bring attention to a wonderful, well-thought post. Thank you for taking the time.

...and I say that it is time to resurect the "It's really all about the women" thread for a repost.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4067158

This thread needs to be reposted.

15 or 16 years old.

This is so incredibly horrible.

Anybody who thinks we're even close to equality needs to step back and look at the just-under-the-surface anger that women have to face (and too often violently). I don't understand it.

Some of it is truly sociopathic behavior... but not all of it. Scary.

undercurrent in the country today, and it expresses itself in different ways. Abu Ghraib, Gitmo, torture, school shootings, Katrina, even Mark Foley. There's a common thread of callousness, sadism, & violence behind all these different incidents. It's like there's a fundamental change in the national character - this whole country is becoming like Bush!

And like the Taliban. That is because the neocons and the Taliban (with bin Laden) are fundamentally the same. Mirror images.

I hope this SOB at least didn't sexually assault the little girls before killing/shooting them.

The State Police has just finished a news conference. They said the guy was 32. That he was a milk tank driver. He wrote notes to his wife and his kids, borrowed the pickup truck and went to the school house.

He said in the notes that he was getting back for something that had happened to him 20 years ago. His wife when she got the notes tried to find him. Instead of notifying the police until to late.

Then the guy went to the school house, told the boys to leave.Let a pregnant woman and two others who had children leave. The teacher slipped out and ran to a neighbor and called the police. He then lined the girls up and started to shoot them. One was only six years old.

There's no words. :cry: What is wrong with this country??

cause some sicko slob sitting in his basement sees one on TV and gets the nerve, or loses his mind enough, to go out and perpetrate his own episode of madness.

was the gender? of those who left?

Police said earlier the gunman sent the male students outside while keeping the girls in and blocking the doors.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061002/ap_on_re_us/amish_school_shooting

They were just little girls, not what/whoever it was he hated so much. :cry:

I'm old enough to have heard too many times how some 'men' use the word 'female' - and it's not flattering. There is an undertow of dismissiveness and scorn.

My ex-husband used to say the word "female" with such bitterness in his voice that it was like hearing him say a cuss word. He was military and had "female" superiors and he hated taking any orders from them.

but then why should we have any? Why would we? Jack the Ripper was male, and didn't seem to care too much for women, and I have no insight into HIS thought processes, either. I wouldn't expect YOU to be able to tell us why Queen Ranavalona of Madagascar was a bloodthirsty murderous lunatic, or to explain why, say, Valerie Solanas was such a violent misandrist, just because you happen to be the same gender. (To be honest, that's really kind of ridiculous, to say nothing of insulting.)

If it were a few isolated cases I were asking you to identify with, that'd be entirely different. But what I'm talking about is a pattern of violence against women.

It's just as stupid and insulting to assume that men are going to know why some other men engage in violent acts aimed at women as it is to assume that an average Muslim will have some special insight into the mind of a suicide bomber, or that an average German will be able to explain the thought process of an SS prison guard, or that an average Russian could tell you what made Stalin's torturers tick.

You go be insulted, and I'll continue to wonder why the fuck women have to deal with this.

why HUMANS in general are the victims of violence directed at them by OTHER humans. The only answer to your question is that humanity is collectively fucked in the head, to phrase it inelegantly. No reason, no pattern, no real 'why'. Just a lot of individuals with heads full of bad wiring, each with his own twisted motivation.

Men killing people vs. women killing people -- the tally is not even close. In the history of the planet women have killed a small fraction of the humans that men have.

Humans are primates ("great apes", technically). In most primate species, males tend to be aggressive and violent (and always significantly more so than females). Whatever we may like to think, we humans aren't significantly different to chimapanzees in most respects; we have language and material culture, yes, but most of our social organisation and instinct isn't so advanced as we tell ourselves. (Also, it seems that our larger brains and the capacity for speech lead to quite a few more psychological problems than our less evolved primate cousins are prey to.)

This kind of crap reminds me of the horrid actions of the Taliban men who allowed girls to burn to death in a school in Afghanistan because they were not properly covered up to leave the premises.

Of course, if You ever point out it is Men perpetrating these crimes and murders upon ONLY females You will be burned at the proverbial stake here at DU.

Thanks for trying anyway. :(

And regarding being attacked? I don't give a fuck. Attack all you want--my question remains.

it was our good friends the Saudis who allowed the little girls to burn to death.

Thanks.

which is almost as bad as Afghanistan. The Taliban didn't allow girls to go to school at all.

You are so right. There are just so many damned men in damned countries that treat girls and women worse than they treat their dogs, I was temporarily confused. I guess for a moment there I was channeling Laura, who tells us that they Love girls now in Afghanistan. Didn't she plant a tree there last year to Prove it?

I see she planted another tree today. In honor of the underage boys creeped upon by a Congressman?

the Taliban get into the government, as Mr. Frist suggests ought to be done, will Laura be planting trees then? :sarcasm:

Oh, maybe she will. But she'll be doing it wearing a burqa and digging the hole for it with a wooden spade. . . ..

After all, wasn't it the government's intent, back in Oct 2001, to bomb Afghanistan back to the Stone Age?

Tansy Gold, trying not to rant

After all that happened enough (twice) to establish a pattern in your mind.

documented for millennia. And there are theories that I'm open to discussing about why it happens. AND you know what? It doesn't offend me in the least.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

1,) Because some women are just plain greedy;
2.) Because some women are raised to think that money and status is more important than self -- including THEMSELVES, so that's what they look for in a mate;
3.) Because some women are afraid of not having money because of their low income upbringing;
4.) Because marrying a man with money and status will thus raise themselves up in the eyes of judgmental family members.

Many of the same reason why men want a women with big breasts, a size 2 body, and no thoughts in her head.

(and, I bet that post wouldn't be deleted -- I've seen posts WAY worse than that about women allowed to stand.)

who are most likely to provide for protect them and their offspring, thus assuring their genes live and are reproduced. This same theory holds that men seek women whose bodies promise fertility, again passing along their genes. It's a biological evolution thing (I'm no scientist).

:toast:

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

I agree with Spider Jerusalem.

I have no insights to offer into the thinking of this sick psycho, I doubt there's anyone here who does.

into this "psycho" behavior. . . .. but anyone who automatically thinks such insight is impossible wouldn't listen to those suggestions anyway.

:::::sigh::::::

Whenever I let myself get suckered into one of these threads, it's because I have the irrepressible hope that there might be a few -- just a few -- reasonable souls who will discuss the issue without going off half-cocked (pun intended, my bad) and turning it into some silly "gender war" when it's nothing of the kind.

There are theories put forth on why women kill their children, and those theories are generally based on "patterns," just as the theories that attempt to explain the behavior of men like the Pennsylvania shooter or the one in Colorado or the kid in Wisconsin or the Columbine killers are based on patterns and evidence and research.

So one poster poses a question, asks if the male DUers have any insights, and instead of the reasonable, rational responses such a question might have sparked, she gets vitriol.

What could people have said? How about,

"Y'know, I'm a male DUer and I don't have a clue. I wish I did, because maybe then I could help stop the next one of these nut-cases, but I just don't know. Sorry."

or

"I'm a male DUer and my best friend's brother is kind of like that. He's always bad-mouthing his wife and I think he slaps her around too, but he's not the kind of guy I'm ever going to sit down and have a heart-to-heart with about his behavior! I'd like to help, but no can do."

But no, instead of reasoned and intelligent discussion, we get bullshit. It's almost as if there are men (and I use the term loosely) around here who are too afraid to examine not only the behavior (and behavior PATTERNS) of other men, but of themselves, too. So instead of discussing it, they distract, they posture, they make the process of discussion so impossible that no discussion takes place.

I wish I were a psychologist, because I suspect there's a name for that kind of behavior. . . . or behavior pattern.


Tansy Gold

asked female DU'ers for their special insights into the mind of Andrea Yates, "because her actions are part of a broader pattern of behavior reflective of misandrist society."
... then I'll retract what I said and apologize.

Her actions, like the guy today, were the actions of one person.

And there is a word for the kind of behavior you observe in your next-to-last paragraph. It's called "taking offense".

I've read most of your posts here and plan to read all the rest. I'm in awe - you nail the argument without being argumentative. If the people you are talking to would just let down their defenses (if you're not guilty then you don't have to defend yourself!) and listen, and talk to you.

Alas, it seldom happens. But man, THANK YOU for trying. Serious :hug:-age heading your way.

To: areafiftyone

Pervert. Utterly perverted.

THIS IS WHAT THE ISLAMICISTS WANT TO DO TO AMERICA, PEOPLE!!

Every freakin' day this would happen if Osama's world view came to hold sway in the world.

I know it might seem a stretch to relate this Pennsylvania shooting and the War on Terror. No matter WHO this shooter is, he exemplifies what the hate of the Islamofacists. If anything good comes from this, we need to help these poor people and remember the reason we are fighting for freedom in the Middle East.
8 posted on 10/02/2006 2:42:28 PM EDT by Recovering_Democrat (I am SO glad to no longer be associated with the party of "dependence on government"!)

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1712245/posts



Um, WTF?

Not really surprising, since this is the mantra that the Bush administration wants imbedded in the thought process of the people of this nation. We see a fine specimen that the brainwashing has been effectively accomplished.

And there have been **three school shootings*** in less than one week, all of them here, in the United States.

Are there certain individuals around the world who would like to see the U.S. taken out? Of course! The crap that's being spread about "liberals have their heads in the sand," or "liberals love terrorists" is all a damned lie.

That said, who poses the greater internal danger at the moment? Some disgruntled American male with control issues, or the Muslim family who worships at the nearby mosque???

If Islam is the source of all violence directed at the U.S., why aren't American Muslims killing children at our schools? Why?????????????????

Please try to think about it for a moment, without consulting Rush ar Hannity.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061002/ap_on_re_us/amish_school_shooting;_ylt=Apf3FDMA9If9YUFHPIukuVus0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTA2Z2szazkxBHNlYwN0bQ--
Police: Pa. school gunman a truck driver

By MARK SCOLFORO, Associated Press Writer 5 minutes ago

NICKEL MINES, Pa. - A 32-year-old truck driver took more than a dozen students hostage in a one-room Amish schoolhouse Monday, barred the doors with boards and fatally shot at least six people including himself, authorities said.
ADVERTISEMENT

The gunman, identified as Charles Carl Roberts, had been in the school about 45 minutes before police got the call, State Police Commissioner Jeffrey B. Miller said. Officers had to break windows to get into the school. By then, three young girls and the gunman were dead, he said.

Police said earlier the gunman sent the male students outside while keeping the girls in and blocking the doors.

It was the nation's third deadly school shooting in less than a week, and one of the deadliest in U.S. history.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20061002/ts_nm/crime_schools_dc;_ylt=AoJM35sVc3P_itAlR6gDMGis0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTA3b2NibDltBHNlYwM3MTY-
He began shooting an automatic handgun, and police then charged the schoolhouse, Miller said.

The gunman had tied up the girls, while letting the boys and some others leave, Miller added.

He said the three dead girls appeared to have been two students and a teacher's aide -- an older girl. The school teaches students aged about 6 to 13.

"It's a horrendous crime scene," Miller said.

....Three girls were confirmed dead and seven people were injured, state police said. He shot the victims "execution style" in the head, police said.

Terrible all the way around, but what would happen to a guy 20 years ago that would make him snap like this today, and at this target? He was 32, that would have made him 12 at the time the event that started the "grudge" occurred. Some type of sexual trauma is suspect of course, but I would like to know more. He had a wife and 3 kids, so it appears he overcame his demons enough to raise a family and operate with some normalicy for some period of time.

Tragic. But it's going to be very interesting to find out what the motivations were behind this.

Was getting 'revenge' for somethat happened 20 years ago...:wtf:
32 years old truck driver, left notes telling what he was going to do.
Yikes.

The one last week was clearly a perv who was hung up on these girls from Facebook. We know nothing about this guy or the circumstances.

This "THING" is an aberration and not a typical human by any means.

all girls and women to be escorted by male relatives in public, kept at home - no school. No birth control, no abortions. must obey for their own good.

what have some people become?

They may wish they were female themselves. Others have been abused by females when they were children.

I'm no psychologist, and I'm only speaking anecdotally- but I knew men who fell into both those categories and ended up going to prison for violence against women. Two of the worst were brothers whose mother had been a prostitute and seriously neglected them- to put it kindly. Anyway, they both harbored very real hatred for women and I have to assume that's why.

But really, it seems to me that such resentment could come from a million different things. People are complex, society is complex, and the way society shapes people is infinitely complex.

But it's a pattern, and it's pervasive. And you don't see the inverse happening (women v. men, and yes, I know there are exceptions, but the pattern just isn't there). It absolutely horrifies me--and just makes me want to know why some men could hate women THAT much.

say that men tend to direct their anger outwards, while women tend to direct it inwards. Men hurt others, women hurt themselves, in other words.

He said that if you go to any given area and look up children who have been victimized 20 or 30 years ago, then look to the present files, the males are usually in prison for violence and the women are there for drug abuse and prostitution.

I overhead some dialogue from a tv series called Deadwood. Wild bill Hickock days, old west. Didn't watch it but what I heard of it - wow - what pure hatred talk about women on that show! I've never heard anything so full of venom.

filthy C's, your mouth moves like a dirty C... whore, whore, whore, etc. over and over.
I'm quite hardened over rough language and usually doesn't bother me but was way over the top. It really gave me the willies!

Jeebus. And, some of the stuff that gets posted on DU...

I used to love that show...but now I think that I'll pass. :thumbsdown:

.....The gunman arrived at the school in the late morning and took hostages, Cmdr. Jeffrey Miller of the Pennsylvania state police told a news conference at the scene in Bart Township.

He began shooting an automatic handgun, and police then charged the schoolhouse, Miller said.

The gunman had tied up the girls, while letting the boys and some others leave, Miller added.

He said the three dead girls appeared to have been two students and a teacher's aide -- an older girl. The school teaches students aged about 6 to 13.

they just don't for personal uses.

and they don't drive. They allow others--non-Amish--to drive them to places too far to go by horse, but they don't drive themselves. Maybe they do in some orders, but the Old Order Amish I know never drive, not even for business. Driving would make it too easy to be in touch with the larger world. It's not done.

Others can drive them, and they can take public transportation, but they aren't allowed to drive. Mennonites do drive, however.

will own trucks for their business. There are Amish construction companies, and they can drive a big crew cab pickup to take their crew to a job site -- just not to get the groceries after work.

"Yet there is some room for disagreement; consider how the bishops judged the automobile in the 1960s. Typically, the Amish have large extended families; most have dozens of cousins within walking or buggy distance. Every other Sunday, instead of attending church, the Amish are encouraged to visit relatives and the sick. Over time, it was felt that the automobile was enlarging people's traveling radius too far beyond their extended family, to diversions and recreations not related to the community, decreasing the social cohesion and personal connection the Amish so cherish. Some bishops accepted the use of the automobile under certain conditions, while others rejected it outright. The Amish are now split into traditional "Old Order" Amish who still stick to horse and buggy, "New Order" Amish who approve use of telephones and powered farm equipment but shun public electricity, and "Beachy Amish," named for the '20s liberal leader Moses Beachy, who permit both public electricity and automobiles."

http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/7.01/amish_pr.html

If what I'm reading is true...

This is incomprehensible. The demons beneath the surface are coming out. Sickos triggering sickos. This is partly a copycat killing of the Colorado shooting, I suspect. An angry twisted monster hears about one way to lash out at his powerlessness--by destroying school girls like that other shooter did.

But no, I have no special insights as a man into this. This is just the cost we pay for living in a well armed society.

Maybe it's not "females" at all. Maybe, just maybe, if BushCo can encourage terrorists abroad, maybe something similar happens with home grown terrorism. That would not have to be misogynist at all, though it could be for some. Maybe, like be-headings and bombing innocent people, often children, it is for the shock value, as all terrorism is.

For example, in addition to the new news reports, there is this on the question of pushing people too far and grooming them, so to speak, for recruitment of terrorist acts:

http://www.sexcriminals.com/forums/101/16640/flat.html

Is it possible? I thought not, but these stories lately have me wondering.

And there is this story, in which, fortunately, no one was harmed.



I don't know if it is possible to brew home grown terrorists or not, but it is something to think about. If it can happen in the Middle East, maybe it can happen here. Thinking of it in terms of misogyny may miss the point, and the solution, if there is one.

(not all) feel insecure and they look for ways to overcome that and control people and things. I've encountered many men who interrupt me constantly while I'm talking yet let men finish their sentences. Message: my (women's) voice doesn't count and he'll decide who gets to be heard. Looking back, I had at least two boyfriends who were mildly to moderately controlling. Almost every man I've ever known has had some degree of that, including my father.

Killing of females is at the extreme end of this spectrum.

Lots of examples of that in my family and friends and co-workers circle over the years.
A man can drone on and on about absolutely boring nothingness and usually have rapt full attention, but when a woman speaks it's too often interrupted, or a second conversation takes up ignoring hers.

I once brought the subject up to one of my sister's who I thought was enlightened on these kind of tactics, and she said that never happens to her, like it was my problem.

When I fairly young, I was sitting in the car with my father and saw a young boy and girl talking. The boy was doing some rude type of things, I can't remember exactly what, maybe swatting at her hat or pushing her bike? And I asked my father why the guy was acting that way. And he said, the guy probably feels some deficiency in the situation and is trying to even the field.

I was like what????? Did not make sense to me.

I have begun to wonder about the loss of power some are feeling in the world right now. Some uneducated, unenlightened men have had the priveledge of their "white male status" to bolster their low self-esteem even if it didn't really afford them anything tangible. (They don't realize that just because you're white and male doesn't mean you will ever be allowed to run in the same circles as shrub.)

But in today's world, they are losing even that "status". They are powerless and there is a great deal of talk now on conservative radio, in the churches, and all over the world where some people say women are the problem. Some of these very powerless men are listening. And some have reached the tipping point.

Oh and for the record, I'm not a guy.

Hi Friend! :hi:

It is so sad to see the defensiveness of Men when something awful happens to females. Instead of banding with Us and trying to stop the mentality and propaganda that encourages this mentality, they get incensed and rail at us.

Screw the fact that this fucking asshole went in to a school with children and shot little kids in the back of the head execution style, it is all about the fact that he hated women. THAT is the important thing here, not the little kids. He let adult women leave and shot 6 year olds. I think this guy had a little more wrong with him than not liking women. :eyes:


My "white male anger" comes from the fact that no matter what happens, some people have to turn it into some personal pissing contest.

1. He lined up and shot and killed six little girls (one as young as 6 years old).
2. Who said he didn't have something MORE wrong with him?
3. Personal pissing contest? Um, I believe yall do that shit.

Why can't You recognize that there is a serious dysfunctional problem with a lot of MEN and much of it is institutional and mass media condoned and if You ain't participating in it, NOBODY IS ACCUSING YOU?!?

"Why? Seriously, why? DU men--any insight into why such hatred of women by some (not all, SOME) men? And why with such violence?"


All I said originally is that I hope no men here can answer that question. Sorry, I am looking at this as a sick fuck who went and killed children, not to mention the others he let go. This was a crime against children in my opinion.

A sick fuck killed children. In an Amish community of all places. It blows my mind. I grew up in an area close to an Amish community and respected their lifestyle off the grid and they sold the best, cheapest pies ever.

But You seem Hell-bent on denial that the Man chose girls to kill. Can You not take one moment of time and think about how Women and Girls in America feel about this type of attack?

Many men seem to believe that bad things like rape, physical assault and murder only happen in *bad* neighborhoods or by *bad* people in unusual situations. Perhaps yall need to learn some statistics on how often these things occur. I don't have them handy, but they have been posted here quite often, trying to educate men why women See this as a larger pattern of aggression and dominance.

No. I am not blaming You personally for what happened. So, why do You take it so personally?

Hi yourself, friend. Yes, I know I owe you an email. This weekend, I promise. Happy belated birthday. ;)

I can't really imagine a pack of girls "molesting" a boy. Maybe picking on him or bullying him.

lots of negative replies. I'm relatively new here, but I've seen enough to know that any questioning of sexism and such will garner much in the way of putdowns. That doesn't mean you shouldn't ask the question.

It's been really discouraging to me to see the amount of sexist stuff that goes on here, and is tolerated. And, yes, I think it's directly connected to your question. Do you know how long it took for the "c" word to be banned here??? There has been a continual struggle against sexist terms here, and when a "liberal" site has that much trouble keeping sexism down to a dull roar, imagine what what a guy who has no compunction at all in seeing women as objects of his rage can find.

I was involved with the second wave of feminism in the 60's, and of course, we had our hecklers (wassa madda, can't you take a joke, bitch?), but now it's even worse... (HEy! You're trying to stomp on my free speech rights!) Gak. I like Jon Stewart, but his sexist stuff gets on my nerves from time to time. It's so very unnecessary, and, yes, it's hurtful. But, we're told to stuff it.

So, these guys who don't have *any* influences that would mitigate their rage, and turn it in another direction will obviously feel more free to blame and punish women. It's so much easier than to deal with their own stuff.

So, it's all a matter of degree, and some degree is tolerated here on DU, and there's higher levels of it in entertainment, and it goes from there. Same stuff, different levels of it. But it's all unnecessary, and violent.

And, mentioning it will get me attacked, also. So predicatable.

Thanks for your question. Forty years ago I never would have dreamed we'd still be fighting all this. :cry:

Quite a few of us here decry the sexist and misogynistic tripe allowed to be posted here... *sigh*

I really thought all I"d get from that was blasted.

Many really fine women have left because of the sexism here. :nuke:

It's just one step in the whole line of violence.

Thank you--I appreciate your willingness to say it aloud. :hi:

Yeah, DU men all suck.

in between my sentences???

NO???

I'm series... it was *there*!

geeez, maybe I didn't get the font HUGH enough...

:silly:

Sowwwy... I'm just a little punchy from the Foley Follies today..

:rofl:

If you are not among that number, no problem!

And speak my mind. Actually, I mainly do that...

I do want to say that there are some great DU guys that also "watch our backs" in those threads: ThomCat, Random Australian, Fred Scuttle, Stepnwolf, others I can't think of right now...

Insanity *is* communicable... :hi:

I hadn't noticed, so I'm glad you gave credit to some who have joined us at the barricades. Thanks for that.

I remember in my dirtyhippiecommiepinkobum days, when we'd have a big women's gathering, there were always the men who would provide childcare, bring the brownies and cupcakes, etc. THat's why it's such a big shock that 40 years later, it's "you're stepping on my freedom of speech" crap!

Verbal violence towards women is the start of accepting violence....

These posts... we also have a Men's Auxillary...

I started it during the Cynthia McKinney thing -- when posters were calling her every name in the book, including skirting around the "u" word.

OF COURSE you're in it! I know you're one UPPITY chick!

The only rule is this: UPPITY always has to be written in caps.

Was it something I said?

Or didn't?

:hi:

I'm series, that's really great. Pro-activity, and all that. It's much better in the context of a supportive group!

BTW, did you ever hear of the San Francisco group, the Red Stockings?

Now, THEY were *UPPITY*!!

Wait... is there a secret handshake? :)

ALmost 40 years ago, I got this really neat pin in Berkeley, that is enameled copper. White background, big red "UPPITY WOMAN" letters.

Still have it.

Will wear it tonight in your honor.

~~polite curtsey~~

before all this?

Seems like a lot of these shooters at schools, serial killers, etc. turn out to have been "Conservative Christians." Sort of like the classic "repressed" person all of a sudden "explodes."

Figures...

I am, so I'm curious--and a little scared to learn the answer.

But, he obviously held some sort of resentment toward old-order religions, stemming from some slight which happened to him when he was 12 yrs. old.

That is actually fairly common in areas where Anabaptists have settled, their lifestyle is seen by some neighbors to be holier-than-thou, while their successes in agriculture despite using simple methods is seen as almost a threat to those who aspire to the "modern ways".

Then there are the wild fundies who deeply resent the piousness of such people who actually practice what they preach. For the Amish to be living a truly fundamentalist ideology puts a crimp on the caterwauling of these new "fundamentalists" and they despise them for it.

some of my family have really amazing stories to tell about what it was like being pacifist during WW2.

And there are some "Christian" novels out there--by Beverly someone--that always have Amish people leaving the order to become "real Christians". :puke:

We have handed-down lore in my family of the incredible lengths that some Anabaptists went to, in order to hide and protect the Indians from slaughter, and also the bravery in defying slavery and work on the Underground Railroad.

I doubt I'd even be here, typing, if it weren't for the convictions of some of those persecuted souls, back then. And I'm not even a Christian!

That is just as dumb a question as the one you posed.

Of course I don't know. Yes, I'm a male (the horror!), but that doesn't make me a fucking murderer, or a hater of women....

Only here will you find people who will take the murder of innocent little children and twist it into some "battle of the sexes". Sick.

And no, it's not "sick" to ask the question.

The majority of men here at DU are liberal and support equality. To ask in a forum like this for insight from the "men" here to explain why men hate women is just weird to me. Sure there are some men who might not support equality of the sexes here at DU, but they are very few and I hardly ever see it.

It might be of some surprise to many of you women here, but many of us men don't enjoy being treated like we are all the same and are the cause of thousands of years of misogyny. We have absolutely no leg to stand on to stand up for ourselves.

This thread was started because of a horrible horrible act committed against children and the question was for the men at DU to try to explain why some men hate women. Originally I stated that I hoped that no man here would understand the working of a mind of a man who would do what this guy did today. The thread quickly turned into a battle of the sexes and not only that, someone even mentioned "white men". So not only can people here get away with misandry, they can also be racist as long as it is against white men.

I seriously find that wrong at a place like DU, but it happens all the time. I had no choice in being born white or being born male. No matter where my heart and intentions are, I am grouped into being a white male and because of that, I can't come out and stick up for myself because at DU it is fine to bash white males as much as people want and to defend myself would be worthless.

Once again, I think this guy was a fucking nut and my heart goes out to the victims, not because they were female, but because they were little kids who had no chance whatsoever.


Now I can get bashed. Thanks. :)

...is NOT the same as equating all men. I'm able to understand the difference when that's turned to me ("can I get a woman's perspective," of which there have been many threads here). "I am grouped into being a white male." Well, ya ARE. And I'm a white woman. And I understand that when somebody asks for my insight, they're not implying necessarily that I am part of a SUBSET of that group.

I'm not bashing white males. I sit here as a woman, horrified and angry and on some levels terrified, because there is an undeniable undercurrent of rage and sadism that gets directed at my gender by your gender. Really dangerous, sometimes deadly rage and sadism. A hundred years ago, even fifty years ago, I could write that off to paternalism and societal ignorance. But it doesn't go away.

And yes, it is still significant that the man separated them by gender, even if they were children.

I understand that YOU are not like that--but I'm not a man, and can't get inside the mind of a man. THAT is why I ask.

Could you imagine these threads here at DU?


"DU women, please explain to me how Susan Smith hated her sons so much that she put them in her car and drove them into the water for them to drown?"


Or:

"Can you women here at DU tell me how Andrea Yates hated her sons so much that she killed all 5 of them?"

Or:

"I need some insight from you DU woman as to why Aileen Wuornos hated men so much that she killed 7 of them. Maybe some of you know women who are close to going out and killing men like that, and I would really like some insight from you".


I can go on, but you get what I'm saying. I understood where you were coming from on your OP, and I just answered it the best I could with my brain of a man, but of course this turned into another battle of the sexes. Honestly Shakespeare, I really don't think any man here can give you the insight of a mass murderer be it women, men or children. None that I know of anyway.

Want some info from a male serial killer? You can write to the Whitehouse anytime..lol. :hi:

and it's just a lot of women's internalized anger at specific men in their past -- that they are probably NOT allowed to hate (like family members), that leads them to indict half the human race anytime there is a tragic crime.

And I in no way implied that all men are like that. Nice straw man, though.

If anyone brought the straw-"man" to the post, it was you...

I'm asking about a trend in violence that crosses all societal lines. There's some common link there, and I'm asking for insight. Just because I ask for the male perspective in NO way lumps all men in with those monsters.

I appreciate your patience.... mine has run out.

It's really a simple question.

Thank you.

~~insert flower emoticon here~~

He had a beef with the mother of one of the girls, and was trying to "get back" in some sort of way. So apparently he knew one of the girls was the daughter of the mother, and was unsure which one. So he just killed them all.

Who is more likely to be the victim of violence? Boys or girls?

Statistically, males are more likely to be victims of fatal violence. Females, however, are more likely to be victims of "intimate partner" killings.

****************************

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/gender.htm

Male offender/Male victim 65.2%
Male offender/Female victim 22.6%
Female offender/Male victim 9.7%
Female offender/Female victim 2.4%

Both male and female offenders are more likely to target male victims than female victims.

Males were almost 10 times more likely than females to commit murder in 2004.

Homicide Type by Gender, 1976-2004
Victims Offenders
Male Female Male Female
All homicides 76.5% 23.5% 88.7% 11.3%
Victim/offender relationship
Intimate 36.5% 63.5% 65.3% 34.7%
Family 51.7% 48.3% 70.6% 29.4%
Infanticide 54.5% 45.5% 61.8% 38.2%
Eldercide 58.3% 41.7% 85.3% 14.7%

*******************

Please note that even under the classification "Infanticide," men do almost twice as much killing of infants and children as women.

These are reported statistics from the Department of Justice. I'm not drawing any conclusions or making any analyses. Just putting the numbers out there. Do with 'em what you will.


Tansy Gold

My mind cannot conceive any reason to line up a group of innocent children, whatever their gender, and execute them. This person's choice was obviously grounded neither in logic nor sanity.

This was an atrocity, plain and simple. I must assume that there was some connection here. The Amish are pacifists and distant from the outside, they've done nothing to anybody.

This has turned into a flamewar....