That Amish school shooting

This shooting was not just some asshole with a grudge he was a pedophile/psychopath ,who bound,and raped the little girls before he killed them. What kind of grudge is so bad,that it excuses killing raping little girls? It makes no sense unless the girls were telling an adult what he did to them previously,as he was a driver,who knows if he had time with those girls alone in the car..and he he told his ditzy little wife he had a grudge before he killed, Was it a grudge with the girls for DEFENDING THEMSELVES and SPEAKING UP??The Girls should NOT have been abandoned by those compliant adults the teachers and all,why on EArth did they OBEY this creep's demands...Those fucking adults..cowards.. This pig was an enraged pedophile in fear of swallowing his own shame,the traumas he put into those girls he deserves to have to face and feel the shame of his choices.And that truth that he cjhose to abuse those girls,and he was gonna be pilloried for it,that is why he killed himself ,he knew he could not escape the truth of what a mysogynist pedophile scumbag he is with the cops out there..If the cops had not surrounded the place I bet the piece of shit would have ran away and hid.Because that's what these degenerates do,they hide to get away with it,because they have no consience. So,frankly I would kill off every one of these perverted sadistic pedophile rapist shits if it was possible.

I hate psychopaths and pedophiles.I HATE them for the harm they cause.They have no right to exist if all they want to do with thier sorry lives is abuse power,violate trust,rape and traumatize people.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/nation/4230654.html

You may be confusing the Bailey, Colorado incident...

While to many, it may not make a difference, I truly want to understand WHAT happened and how we can prevent it. This incident may have similarities to Bailey, but from what I can tell, the sexual assault aspect is not one of them.

The implication from the paraphernalia he brought along was that he was prepared to begin sexually assaulting these girls, but got into a panic when the cops showed up fast. He may've picked the Amish thinking that they'd get word to the cops slower. Disgusting scum who died 21 years too late.

Had not heard any updates either, those poor babies...:cry:

There doesn't seem to be much info available yet, but he was married, had three children, no criminal history, no one apparently saw this coming at all, and yet he carried some as yet unrevealed "grudge" for over twenty years, i.e. since he was a child himself? This just does not add up. I think he was insane, as in suddenly eratic and delusional. A brain tumor or something along those lines? I don't know, but his behavior today just does not jibe with what he seemed to be before today. I do think it's a bit premature to call him a psychopath.

which stated that Miller had evidence that sexual assault had taken place. Within the past few minutes, that sentence has been corrected to add the "no". It was a mistake on the part of the paper.

"Miller said Roberts was apparently preparing for a long siege, arming himself with a 9mm semiautomatic pistol, a 12-gauge shotgun and a rifle, along with a bag of about 600 rounds of ammunition, two cans of smokeless powder, two knives and a stun gun on his belt. He also had rolls of tape, various tools and a change of clothes.

Roberts had left several rambling notes to his wife and three children that Miller said were "along the lines of suicide notes." The gunman also called his wife during the siege by cell phone to tell her he was getting even for some long-ago offense, according to Miller.

From the suicide notes and telephone calls, it was clear Roberts was "angry at life, he was angry at God," Miller said. And it was clear from interviews with his co-workers at the dairy that his mood had darkened in recent days and he had stopped chatting and joking around with fellow employees and customers, the officer said.

Miller said that Roberts had been scheduled to take a random drug test on Monday. But the officer said it was not clear what role that may have played in the attack.

Miller said investigators were looking into the possibility the attack may have been related to the death of one of Roberts' own children. According to an obituary, Roberts and his wife, Marie, lost a daughter shortly after she was born in 1997."

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/nation/4230866.html

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The mistake was in the original newspaper article, NOT on the part of the poster. I read the same thing that they did, which stated that, "Miller said he had immediate evidence that the victims were sexually assaulted." That has since been corrected, to say:

"Miller said he had no immediate evidence that the victims were sexually assaulted."


Such mistakes are common in breaking news stories.

I thought for sure I had seen it there.

I hate it when that happens.. I still think the shooter was a pedophile,and that's why he killed the girls, that's what the"grudge" was.

was to be found in that area and when I finally clicked back to the original article, the page wouldn't even load. After several refreshes, this new and updated article appeared.

I can vouch for you, it most certainly DID say that. Rule I use when posting links, always copy and paste snips of whatever pertinent part is relevant to the comments in the post you are making. That way when the media screws up so blatantly, we have mighty good proof, right here.

:)

while I question your definition of psychopathy and disagree on what needs to be done about that element, the shooter in PA does appear to have been a predator.

killed them.

There is no indication the Amish school killer did the same.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/10/03/miller.tues/

State Police Commissioner Jeffrey Miller: On the bottom of one of the boxes that Roberts brought into the school, after we photographed everything at the scene and we began to remove the contents of all the items that he had put in the school, we discovered a bag of nails, chains, small clamps, and two tubes of KY Jelly.

One of the 2x4 pieces of wood had 10 large eye hooks in the boards, spaced approximately 10 inches apart. It's important to note that we had 10 victims at that time that were in the school. ...

had the girls face the chalk board and bound their hands and shot them execution style. The young women in Col. were raped. So sick and sad. Can't imagine what kind of "universal thoughts" are going on that both of these freaks did the same thing days apart.

I think they both were pedophiles.

Seven other victims were taken to hospitals. Most were badly wounded; most had been shot, execution-style, at point-blank range, after being lined up along the chalkboard, their feet bound with wire and plastic ties, authorities said.

Why did he bind them? Trapped terrfied little girls,frozen in fear could be shot dead as easily unbound..He bound them for a reason....CONTROL. Like a rapist who puts a knife to a victim to control her..
The cops were there fast,so he only had time to kill them.
That's what I think. If the asshole had more time who knows what he would have done to them. And what adult has such grudges and this compulsion to be such a threat to little girls for? What information did those girls have that he went in there and KILLED them over it? Note he did not shoot the boys,the babies or the adults.. WHY? Why target JUST the girls?
I think it was because he was a molestor and he was scared of the girls telling any adults the truth,and I think there was a mention of him arguing with a mother ,before the whole shooting....If this is so,it adds up for a definate motive. If any of the survivors tell of molestations,than we know what the"grudge" was about.

In fact, that's kind of the definition of crazy.

This shooter wasn't crazy.He was sane,he planned it out,he did it ,and knew it was wrong,and killed himself to avoid jail. He was a psychopath and psychopaths are NOT mentally ill.They do NOT have a mental illness. They have no CONSCIENCE.

PLEASE Don't lump mentally ill people like me and many others on this board saddled with depression,PSTD, schizophrenia or panic disorders in with the PSYCHOPATHS and child rapists..

Mental illness does not cause a person to do crimes like this routinely. But ,psychopathy does, Psychopathy it is the perpetrators personality form,it is WHAT he is.

A mental illness is something that afflicts you or it is a psychological injury. Having mental illness does not erase your conscience.

Only Psychopathy and it's related personality types have no guilt,shame or remorse when they hurt others, and those psychopath people are SANE and fully aware of what they do and know it is wrong and do not care.

BIG DIFFERENCE.

A disorder listed in DSM-IV. And that can disqualify them from owning a firearm, if they are diagnosed. The resulting behaviors include things that seem insane to many people (in common usage of the word). No truly sane, whole person would do what he did.

Sorry to learn of your affliction, whatever it may be, but the fact that your diagnosis is defined in the same book as many unsavory things doesn't lessen you as a person in my mind.

I own a few firearms that were classified in 2000 as "assault weapons" here in California. I had to register them. The Department of Justice registry for owners of restricted firearms is in the SAME DATABASE as the registry for sex offenders. The data elements are almost the same. I could be offended by that fact if I chose to be, but it's low on the priority list of battles I choose to fight.

Antisocial personality is still a form of mental illness. I don't pretend to compare you, and whatever your challenges may be to this person, but it is still a form of mental illness none the less.

Whether he planned it out or not is NOT indicative of having a mental illness or not. That goes to proving sanity or insanity in the legal arena, which is a different critter all together.

Usually psychopaths, to use the terminology you put out there, are damaged emotionally and psychologically. It just takes a much different form than others.

He may have been judged sane in some court, we won't know now. But like I said, sanity/insanity and mental health/illness are two completely different things.

I certainly would not want the stigma of having anything in common with this man. It would be disgusting and frustrating for me. But that does not make this not a case of a mentally ill person striking out. It just means the public needs to get an education. Again.

Because when you treat a psychopath as if they were not a psychopath you or others will get hurt,conned,beaten raped,abused somehow. You cannot negotiate with a psychopath like you with would someone else.
You cannot pretend a psychopath senses or relates to you with empathy like non sociopaths. They are without a conscience they don't feel shame ,empathy or anything that would REGULATE how a non sociopaths interactions with others are..Psychopaths see NOTHING wrong with themselves or with what they do to hurt people.They don't care about anyone.. they don't process trauma like non psychopaths do they are not injured the same way by abuse as non psychopaths OK. WE cannot trust them,we cannot live with them or make a culture that tolerates their actions, if we want a world where you can raise a kid and the kid is not molested or killed or whatever ,or we want a government that is not corrupt,or a corporation that cleans up and does not manipulate and hurt people,ok? If you want a society that is relatively safer, the sociopaths,authoritarians, psychopaths authoritarians must be banned from holding any position of power or authority,or they must be kept locked up or eliminated if they commit a crime.IF there is no way to implant a conscience into them what can you do to protect from them? Sadly nobody has figured out how to fix sociopaths yet.And we are running out of time because these thugs control too much of our society and dominate it's processes and power structures and our planet is dying.

No offense intended, but you're getting like real strident here...

And not be a threat to anyone.. How come my intensity scares you.Intensity is someytimes a good thing. I think this habit of medicating away a human beings intensity at injustice or wrong..is one reason why we have such a complacent populace too tolerant with the abuses of the * admin..
I am intense, it's part of who I am..Intensity has nothing to do with needing meds..The problem with my intensity is YOUR problem dealing with intensity.I do feel strongly that's not bad.Maybe that is why I care deeply and do look into this stuff,I want to solve the problem of the people who traumatize other people.Instead of medicating it away or petending it isn't there.

mania on steroids and I'm worried about you, that's all. Try to calm down before your hormones gyrate
you clean off the planet! :D

Have you EVER felt strongly about something before?
Than why does what I feel strongly about upset you so? You are the one upset not I.You read alot into typing..
Go ahead keep making these pointless statements that you assume,have any relevance to what I am trying to present here,to convince people I am too nuts to be listened to,I know that game. It's a game to silence an intense opinion you don't like being posted.. Whatever, you Do a great service to the enablers of this world with it..
Hopefully people will think for themselves here and decide if my intensity bothers them or not. They don't have to click any of my posts, they can even put me on ignore if I get too intense for them, that's what responsible people do when the heat of a topic is too hot for them..They don't pull the loon off the meds card like an asshole .I think people reading this thread can figure that out for themselves whether I'm too intense, without your armchair shrink like "guidance" and self serving opinions about my mental states which is all just a disguised insult and quite rude of you.

Thank you.. :)

I won't be seeing any more of your posts...fell free to return the favor.

There is just truth and information that we should ALL be aware of, especially given the bill that was passed last week by those in power who DO NOT give a damn about any of us and whether we live or die.

than acute mental disorders. Mental illnesses like depression, anxiety disorders, etc. are coded on Axis I, while personality disorders like psychopathy, borderline personality disorder, etc. are coded on Axis II according to the DSM-IV. The distinction is made to underscore the difference between an acute mental disorder and an enduring condition, such as a personality disorder or mental retardation. Mental retardation isn't a "mental illness," either, but it is coded right along with personality disorders on Axis II of the DSM-IV. It is coded that way for the reasons Undergroundpanther states. These "diagnoses" are an entirely different animal from what most people think of when they think of "mental illness."

Whether or not the shooter was diagnosed with a mental illness wouldn't even be the issue if he had survived and faced legal action. What matters is cognizance of right and wrong and evidence of acting despite that. The News Hour with Jim Lehrer is now reporting that the shooter brought with him to the schoolhouse materials suggesting that he had a plan to molest the girls, possibly in multiple ways and over an extended period of time, before killing them. This, along with the phone call confession to family members, would have been a slam dunk as to the issue of legal guilt and responsibility.

It is a dangerous enterprise to leap so quickly to the issue of mental illness at all when faced with a heinous crime like this. The rate of diagnosis of "mental illness" is extremely high in this country. Look at the threads on DU polling about use of antidepressants, anti-anxiety drugs, etc. Every DU-er who takes such medications has probably received a diagnosis of a "mental disorder," yet the vast majority of DU-ers will never be so mentally disabled as to lose sight of the difference between right and wrong and commit a heinous act. MOST people who have been diagnosed with a "mental illness" are still capable of knowing right from wrong and choosing their actions.

Of people with diagnosed mental illness who DO commit crimes, the vast majority would not even come close to meeting the legal standard necessary to absolve them of responsibility for their crimes. In other words, they knew right from wrong and made a choice, just like any other person. The law sets the bar for defense based on mental illness very high for a reason. To leap to the issue of mental illness in this case is completely misguided, IMO.

Wonderful clear post...I hope the people understand the differences now.

I really hate it when people with depression,anxiety,or like me PSTD, get lumped in with psychopaths ,this designation of mental illness HAS to be defined clearer,because I am sick to death of people assuming because I see a shrink take meds,and all that I am DANGEROUS or that if I get emotional or passionate that I am off my meds,that just pisses me off.

And I know alot of mentally ill people being a consumer advocate and most of them I have known would NEVER do anything like that psychopath molester piece of shit did.I met one guy who was a convicted pedophile,he showed up at a consumer conference I was at and as soon as he said what he was,he was bounced out,because he was not mentally ill.He was a danger to all of us.He was not a peer to us.That is why the places for treatment for these psychopaths and pedophiles is SEPARATE from the general mentally ill populations.

A psychopath or pedophile would cause havoc and terror in a regular general mental hospital mileu ,if he was left in a room full of vulnerable hurting and traumatized people who are sick with symptoms and falling apart..A psychopath or pedophile is not a peer to a mentally ill person. Mental illness VS the issues molesters and psychopaths have are as different as sunshine and shit.

were already very well put, but thanks. I think it is a liberal tendency to try to give people the benefit of the doubt and attempt to understand why they do what they do. Usually that is an honorable trait and sorely needed in this cold world. However, in this case it is just misguided and, as you articulated so well, frankly dangerous to the rest of us.

Did you actually intend to write that?

And this is why..If society decides to let psychopaths off the hook,for thier crimes,which they KNOW are wriong and don't care,why should we have any sense of a ethical right and wrong,and enfoce it than? Why should we have these social responsibilities to protect or nurture each other at all if we are not responsible for the kind of society we tolerateand we let it fall to the psychopaths to regulate how good or nasty we treat one another??
If sociopaths are exempt from the responsibilities of the laws and conduct that enable human beings to exist together in relative safety,and they know what they do its wrong and do it anyway,and don't care..why should non sociopaths be forced to live around sociopaths and suffer for the sociopath's lack of social responsibility and the psychopaths abuse ?
In other words why should non sociopaths who have a consience,be forced to suffer the traumas,and abuse these psychopaths do to anyone they choose to target to destroy,just because they are fucked up somehow? There are plenty of people with real mental illness that need our help and protection from psychopaths,and the real mentally ill can get better.A psychopath will never get better because they see nothing wrong with themselves.Psychopaths are well,too sane..
Here are some arguments..
http://www.hare.org/links/saturday.html
http://www.philosophy.umd.edu/Faculty/PGreenspan/Res/rp.html
http://ranprieur.pitas.com/020702.html
http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0031-8094(196504)15%3A59%3C135%3ATROP%3E2.0.CO%3B2-K

psychopaths are calculating predators whose behavior must be judged by the rules of the society in which they live. They have an intellectual awareness of these rules but do not follow them unless it is in their own best interest to do so. As the Innuit of northern Canada put it, "Their mind knows what to do, but they do not do it."
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh//pages/frontline/shows/execution/who/psycho.html

And I learned the Innuit would kill the psychopaths in thier midst as soon as one was detected in the tribe and victims were hurt .They'd take the asshole on a hunting trip and toss him into the ice water.And that would be that. Ironically The Innuit had a very egalitarian peaceful tribe.That's how they did it.Thier society had no tolerance for psychopaths.
http://www.animalbehavior.org/ABSNews/1081879873/index_html
http://ranprieur.com/readings/jensenbox.html
http://www.rainbowbody.net/Finalempire/FEchap15.htm

Other kinds..
http://www.internetidiot.net/socially-dangerous-psych

opathy-links.htm

You said

"And this is why..If society decides to let psychopaths off the hook,for thier crimes,which they KNOW are wriong and don't care,why should we have any sense of a ethical right and wrong,and enfoce it than?"

If you believe someone who "knows" some things are wrong and does them anyway isn't mentally ill, we
really don't have anything more to discuss. It's one degree of separation from the classic definiton,
doing the same thing over and over expecting a different result.

I don't deny that there are actual living people who are truly evil in the most literal sense but
conflating that condition with psychopathy is really an ignorant and intolerant cop-out...and a lie.

Your tolerance of the intolerable might lead to someones death or traumatization ,if a psychopath is trusted at the wrong time,you know..and abuses your piity..with that rationalization of yours, you know.

We cannot function as a society if we throw out our own consciences,nor can we let one part of society be exempt from the ethical conduct that helps us be able to live in relative peace together, and expect to have a society worth living in anymore.
There comes a point where chicken egg arguments are moot.

We are locked on a planet with psychopaths in our midst,what are we going to do about it? Should we just let them prey upon us and our kids and say,poor little bully he has no feelings pity him as he kills and does not care? And should we pretend his ruse of remorse let him go free and pretend he's like us deep down? Is that what you want? Than I do not want to live in a society like that, there would be no trust,peace or love there..because the bullies would dominate it totally.I don't know why psychopaths are the wayy they are, all I know is they harm and they have hurt too many people to pretend they are not a danger to us all.

and how strongly you want to protect those weakest among us. Those are admirable things. I would caution your hate against the adults for leaving when directed to leave by this guy. I am sure that unless we have been under the gun ourselves, literally, we do not know how we would act. And for all we know, he could have held a gun to one of the adults and said leave or die. One of the adults was pregnant after all.

He was clearly ill, and that left him weak to having fantasies of vengeance, in my opinion. They were nursed for a long time, although I have heard varying amounts of time, and am not sure what it was that he was angry at. I suspect that Colorado incident was the spark to set him off.

I am sorry to tell you this, but I am not sure he was a pedophile, unless some news has come out that I have not seen yet. I am sorry, because I think the young girls were just a means to an end to him and nothing more. I can imagine that is shocking, but I suspect that was all that was, and he got the idea from the incident last week. It is sad, awful, and disgusting, but I suspect that described him as well.

I don't mean to be rude with this, and hope I did not come across as such. I just wanted to share my thoughts on your statements.

<..and how strongly you want to protect those weakest among us. Those are admirable things. I would caution your hate against the adults for leaving when directed to leave by this guy. I am sure that unless we have been under the gun ourselves, literally, we do not know how we would act. And for all we know, he could have held a gun to one of the adults and said leave or die. One of the adults was pregnant after all.>

I would have died trying to protect those girls and defy that asshole,,because I have been hurt by a thug like him and I have sworn to the core of my being to NOT BE A BYSTANDER. My mom had a Gun in her face,my father was holding it. I did not by-stand that time,I was the only other person there,I had the responsibility to save my moms life,I was 14..I slammed into my father and the gun discharged into the hall,my mom and I took off in the car as he shot at us. I have faced these sorts of cowardly scumbags before and I refuse to be intimidated again.
You see by-standing happens when a group of witnesses chicken out,and nobody stands up ..the people witnessing the crime all shift responsibility around and around each other ,hoping someone else will stand up first,and no one does.The victims die.Then the bystanders whine ooh I wish I would have.. Yeah criminal negligence exists people.. I will stand up.I made that commitment to myself years ago.I have acted on it many times while other capable people did NOTHING..I will not by-stand.
*I will NOT do as others did to me long ago*.
There are no heroes among us when everyone is too scared to take on the job of helping others themselves,and instead wait for someone else to do it and lead them.

That's why people get killed while bystanders stand and wring their hands..and bystanders always lament after the fact they coulda shoulda woulda,all too late.It's easy to see in hindsight.And to act,in the heat of danger ,one must decide in advance like a ethical commitment,to stand up and face the danger even if nobody else will. If no one stands up you are guaranteed a situation like this Amish Shooting,if someone had stood up there may be less dead bodies and the fucker would be detained.

That is my experience in my life dealing with violent situations when I do not by-stand.Standing up changes EVERYTHING. In school bullying incidents 95% of the altercations that would be ugly,are defused and stopped if someone steps up and defends the bullies target.Fancy that. So, yes I DO rag on bystanders, they need to feel a little shame.Maybe not the pregnant woman,but the others should feel guilty.


<He was clearly ill, and that left him weak to having fantasies of vengeance, in my opinion. They were nursed for a long time, although I have heard varying amounts of time, and am not sure what it was that he was angry at. I suspect that Colorado incident was the spark to set him off.>

The guy was NOT mentally ill. HE WAS A PSYCHOPATH,psychopaths are ADDICTED to fantasies of their own power,they want to act it out,it lives in their heads and they get off on it,over and over that way until they are ready to act it out in real life and they got the best chance of it going as planned.They have no conscience.

Billions of people everywhere have all kinds of fantasies in their heads some quite nasty,myself included but they also have a conscience ,that's the inner cop in the head that says doing that would be wrong.. But only the psychopath can nurse a grudge like that as a rationale to kill people in the name of a fantasy.He was not sick he knew what he was doing he planned it for years.

<I am sorry to tell you this, but I am not sure he was a pedophile, unless some news has come out that I have not seen yet. I am sorry, because I think the young girls were just a means to an end to him and nothing more. I can imagine that is shocking, but I suspect that was all that was, and he got the idea from the incident last week. It is sad, awful, and disgusting, but I suspect that described him as well.>

Ok How could he be planning it for years and get the idea from an incident last week. which was it? And if the incident last week exited him enough to want to do it himself,couldn't he already be a pedophile? Why is he copying a pedophile crime unless he is turned on by that shit to begin with? Explain that?

<I don't mean to be rude with this, and hope I did not come across as such. I just wanted to share my thoughts on your statements.>

My thoughts reply to yours and we disagree.

speaker said that the time to stop 'cooperating' with a gunman is after he kills somebody. If he kills one person, he has it in him to kill everybody, so that's when fighting back gives you--or somebody else--a chance to survive.

He cited the example of Richard Speck killing the eight student nurses. Speck took them out of the room one by one and shot them, and even after they heard the shots, they went with him without a struggle. Only one young woman had the presence of mind to hide under the bed and hope (correctly) that he would lose count.

I, too, am appalled that the teachers left the building without a fight. What did they think he was going to do with a roomful of young girls? Nothing good, that was obvious.

to handcuff you or similar. after that you have no recourse.

I understand what you are saying about the teacher & other adults leaving...
I thought the same thing initially, but the teacher was pregnant and I think some of the aides who were allowed to leave had their own young children with them.

The Motherhood instinct really does kick in if you have your own kids involved in a crisis situation.

I was also disappointed that the adults didn't stay and fight but I don't fault them for wanting to protect their own kids because I think that gets into instinct territory--JMO

If we are better,lets decide to be better.That's my attitude.
I have defended people in violent situations that were strangers,why? Because I care because I vowed to myself to never by stand,because if I don't care who will?

Just curious...most people haven't encountered an armed whack job with guns in a hostage setting.

I would imagine that if you have done something so dramatic that it must have been written up in a paper somewhere?

Gotta link?

when I was 14, from my father, the crazed gunman,in his case it was a rifle.My mom left him. but she had to get a paper signed for legal shit,when we walked in my father had a rifle ready.I didn't see the gun until he had my mom by the throat.She was croaking for me to leave, he was screaming at her"you killed me" over and over,I was shocked,I saw/heard him draw the rifle hammer back,it was all in slow motion ..but instead of sitting there,I lept over the coffee table,I slammed into my father in a head butt,he was drunk,lost his balance and dropped the gun on the living room floor it went off into the hallway there was a big bullet hole there I saw years later when I came to that house after the asshole was dead,,and my mom and I used that bit of chaos in his plans as a way to take off out the back and front door and we got into the car and sped out of there.Mom crammed my head so far under the dash as we sped out the back bump on my skull got scraped..She had bruises on her neck,And dammit after 2 years she was stuck in the abuse mindset of an enabler still,She went back to him and so I freaked out and ran away,the only time I did something like that,I climbed down three stories rappelling out my bedroom apartment window late at night with tied sheets,and ran for my life,I begged my therapist to put me away rather than go back to him.I had cut my arms to hamburger And that "help" let to all sorts of abuse..

Never make headlines dude. Alot of domestic violence happens and nobody knows.That is reality.

thats from your link

I was trying to find where the part was and it went poof as I was posting... See this whole thing upthread where Country Jake found out what it was all about.I saw it written there,by time I sought it again, it was changed.I got the paragrapgh,but it was not the same one..
Because the news was breaking. The story changed.
I still think the guy was a pedo.His MO is a giveaway as far as I am concerned.Why would he imitate a pedophile crime if he wasen't excited by that shit to begin with?

Maybe they were trying to avoid getting people shot.

like cowards,They were submitting to the bully, they were standing by.
And I for one have chosen to NOT stand by anymore.If I got shot at least like Bill Clinton said in the woodward interveiw with the question about what he did about Al Queda I can say ,I TRIED..

How many do not even try..THEY are part of the problem.Not the main one which is the psychopath,but they in thier bystanding,and refusal to resist the beginnings,helped him.

don't know what I would do. The women who left were either pregnant or older girls with small babies. I'm not sure I wouldn't have made the same choice.

Remember after wards what you did or didn't do is a reflection of your choices,and conscience at the time regardless. Maybe that's why after the threat passes bystanders often feel ashamed for thier inaction.

Redstone