Why Freepers are immune to reason--it all comes back to one argument

Democrats' core beliefs are based on the overriding belief that the goal of humanity is to find a way to cooperate, and coexist peacefully with all the different peoples of the world. Our primary concern is that humanity reach its fullest potential, and that we are good stewards of the planet.

Freepers' core beliefs are all based on the overriding belief that the goal of humanity is for people just like them to dominate the planet, and kill off those who are different from them. Their only concern is the self. All morality is self based--i.e., what do *I* need to do so *I* can get into heaven?

That's why none of these arguments we've made for the last 6 years are taking. We can come up with the most airtight, logical argument you can think possibly think of, and it will all lead back to this main difference.

You can't win an argument with a Freeper by saying something is unconstitutional, or will cause the loss of foreign innocent life. You'll get a blank look, and then maybe a "So?" These have nothing to do with the self.

They think we are crazy and self-sabatoging for not being as selfish as they are. They think we are just grandstanding when we talk about how things will affect others. They think altruism is fake. What's their answer to every argument about civil liberties? I have nothing to hide so why should *I* worry?

And we've all seen how these people try to make their brand of selfishness acceptable. They joke about it. "I'm an asshole, but I'm up front about it." "I can't help it, I love money, can you blame me?" They try to play it off as a big joke how egotistical and selfish they are, to try and mask or soften the reality of how egotistical and selfish they really are.

I know, it's a big news flash--Freepers are selfish. I'm just trying to narrow it all down to the simplest terms possible. I just get tired of seeing fellow Dems working to craft these razor sharp arguments, realizing that it's all for naught. Being "right" means nothing to these people. They can argue with you like a 6 year old for as long as they need to until whatever you're arguing becomes irrelevant.

We're not going to take power back by outlining the logic of why we should be in power for the American people. We're going to have to learn how to WIN ELECTIONS and ORGANIZE. In real, tangible, functional terms. It doesn't have to be dirty. Just tactically sound. Because I've given up on making the perfect argument about how morally inferior the other guys are, and how much more we respect the Constitution. It doesn't take with these people.

I could also make the argument that Democrats lead with the superego, and Freepers lead with the ego, but that's an oversimplification for another time on another thread.

Good post. :thumbsup:

in evolution...
They're stuck in an evolutionary cul de sac.

...do so many of them so consistently vote against their own interests and give blind allegience to people who constantly fuck them over, kill them and steal everything they have?

Answer: Because most of 'em are also dumber than a box of rocks.

• It's why they don't believe in evolution
  
• And why they pretend to be the Party of Values (specialized, selective Christian values)
  
• Why they hate all minorities. All of them.
  
• Why they feel justified in hating Muslims but don't mind invading their countries -- killing tens of thousands of them -- to "liberate" them.
  
• It's why environmental protection is unconstitutional but suspending Habeus Corpus is totally fine.
  
• And, as stated in the OP, why they never listen to any dissenting opinions. Ever.

Great post.

Your thinking matches some of the ideas that have rambled around my head for a few weeks. Rationality as completely ineffectual in budging anyone from a very self-centered worldview. No fact can persuade someone who has chosen to believe what they believe not based on facts in the first place.

Thanks for the essay (and reading my mind).

Recommended.

or the F'n planet.. he was going to make a lot of money and screw em.. yo cant do anything about anything anyway.. except making money.. and im going to make a lot of it.

with dealing with people who just seem to speak, not just a different language, but an opposite language.

And after recently traveling abroad, it's fresh in my mind that it transcends all borders imaginable. It doesn't even line up perfectly along party lines, though I have no doubt that our parties' ideological split is the result of an evolution into those two directions, whether it was manipulated that way or it got there naturally.

It's a humanity problem, and it's the main split that will always confound us. I think it exists within each of us to a degree. We all want to take the best aspects of each side, but it's hard to stay impartial when one side consistently makes so much sense as being the best. Just trying to cope with being surrounded by people of such an opposite mentality sometimes.

Now I'm rambling, but I just wanted to share my feelings about why you just can't seem to reason with certain types of people. It's being exaggerated so much in the spin of the Foley case, that it becomes clearer what seperates us from the Drudge's and Limbaughs, etc.

(and I think Freepers vote against their interests because they believe siding with their leader is ultimately in their best interests. The authoritarian personality syndrome that Dean talked about.)

But the arguments and the reasoning needs to be done to get to the independents. Plus there are probably a small number of Republicans who are just more clueless more than selfish. My husband was one when I first met him but he just didn't follow politics and didn't understand what was going on. (He's a huge liberal these days.)

I think you're so right when you mentioned that their religion is all about them and what they have to do to get to heaven. I noticed that a long time ago. Their religion is all about their own "personal relationship to God" and their own salvation. It's all about how they are "saved" and not so much about helping, caring about or forgiving other people. Unless, of course, you can "save" them as well, because you get extra points when you harvest a soul for Jesus ya know. :eyes:

They aren't as bothered by hypocrisy as normal people are.

NGU.

the glass is theirs" ;) That's just ONE of the bumper stickers on my car. It sums up the repukes in one sentence......and hits it home. I hope it shames them when they read it, but IMCPO they are incapable of shame.

To Democrats, power is a means.
To Rape-Publicans, power is an end.

:hi: in_cog!

NGU.

:hi:

"Democrats would rather see a few people cheat than let anyone starve. Republicans would rather see a few people starve than let anyone cheat."

Elections are about domination.

Governing is about cooperation.

We have to craft our own way of dominating the argument, that plays to our strength. Like Jon Stewart does. Make being smart and moral cool again. Say what you will about his relevance, he's a great politician.

just that we need spokesmen who like Stewart, can lay out the truth in terms anyone can understand, and point out the obvious incongruities of the right's message. Someone who can do it with a smile, who can seem confident, while still being open minded. He also has a talent for nailing freepers to the wall and making them love him for it. They are insecure about being called out, and if you do it, sometimes all they can do is pretend to laugh along.

on their parts because the way to make things better for yourself is for things to be better for others. If others are doing well then you don't need to worry about them taking your stuff away from you, sometimes it's as simple as that...it's enlightened self-interest.

at least the most infantile do. But read this:

http://www.berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2003/07/22_politics.shtml

The ego is too sophisticated for them. For Freepers, it's a raw, reptilian response to every problem.

This is why they are so full of double standards. It is OK to bomb someone else's country, because it will "protect us" but when some other country bombs us, it's evil. I think they want to be part of an elite and actually are angry at those who don't recognize them as such.

Well written piece.

E Pluribus Unum

Most Freepers are just uneducated rednecks who read some watered down "Mcpolitics" book by wack job author and consider themselves fully political aware. Somone that has a firm grasp on Neo-Realism though will have a very grim, narrow, and warmongering mindset from your perspective which I'll likely assume is one of radical liberal or maybe neo-liberal. From a neo-realist perspective though you'd look insane as your policies according their theories would leave you fatally prone and vulnerable.

Lately a line from a W.H. Auden poem has been running through my head when I've been reading DU: "We must love one another or die."

I don't think a Freeper would understand this. I think they are really under the delusion that they can kill off all their enemies without also dying in the process. By the time they realize otherwise (if they ever do) it will be too late for them, and definitely too late for the rest of us.

"Freepers' core beliefs are all based on the overriding belief that the goal of humanity is for people just like them to dominate the planet, and kill off those who are different from them. Their only concern is the self. All morality is self based--i.e., what do *I* need to do so *I* can get into heaven?"

You would have to distinguish there, between two types of wingers - the Military-Industrialist-Corporate Rightwing and the Christian Fundamentalist Rightwing. As for the 2nd part - morality being self-based, the MICRW is amoral. They have no morality except the worship of power and money. It is true that many Franklin Grahams and televangelists seem to fit that morality in practice. However, the morality of their followers (grassroots wingers) and the morality they preach is different from the amorality of the way they and the MICRW operates.

Morality of the FCR (fundamentalist christian right) is not self-based. They want everyone to get to heaven - even Bill Clinton and Richard Dawkins and Janeane Garofalo. And they do not believe anyone needs to DO anything to get to heaven - they would say you have to believe, have faith, rather than actually do anything. That is Protestant theology that is taught to many in this country when they are very young. Catholic theology is a little bit different, if I am understanding it without being raised in it - salvation is by effort, by trying your best to serve God, and being part of the Catholic church.

People who you just can't talk to. The ones who aren't necessarily pulling for you to get into heaven. The ones whose spirituality has nothing to do with the spirit.

Fear is a powerful emotion. It threatens to disrupt societies.

I believe that freepers manage their fear by excluding others as much as possible. As long as there are people who have less, they are safe. The buffer is the poor, sick and minorities - and any other "difference" they can think of. Dehumanization follows.

Most exhibit the authoritarian personality, the ultimate circular argument - "I am right because I am right."

Most of their conclusions are based on slippery slope and undivided middle.

When it comes out on DVD, see "Idiocracy". Funny. Hilarious. But, too, too true.

They want to convert us to their way of thinking, and if we don't, to be able to ignore us. There might be a few crazies that wish to harm liberals, but I've read some crazy comments on this board about various conservatives. Just read the thread about Helen Chenowith's death.

I don't agree with them about many political issues, but that doesn't mean I don't respect people who have different ideas and beliefs than I do. I think abortion should be legal, they don't-I don't think they are bad people for believing that, even if some of them call me a baby killer over it. It is important not to let politics blind you to who people are as individuals- I grew up around conservative religious people, as neighbors, friends and classmates. I was never mistreated by any of them, which is something I can't say about many of my own relatives. Like any other group of people, most were good people and there were bad apples among them. The same can be said about liberals, moderates or any other group of people.

And ask a Freeper how they feel about our European ancestors killing off the Native Americans, and see what colorful answers you get.

I'm not trying to say there aren't good Republicans. I'm trying to examine a personality type that we've all had to deal with, and examine why they're so hard to deal with. Even some of the good people, still will never see the logic in our arguments because they sincerely believe that the only way "good" will come about on earth, is for "good" people like them to control it by driving out all of the bad people. They have no interest in pluralities, and they tend not to believe that there are different ways to be good. They themselves might lead very good lives, and do a lot of great things for people, but their worldview is often very different from ours.

Just my observations. My main point is that we'll never craft that perfect argument that makes Freepers see the light, when our core values are so different at their roots.

by being seeking personal riches they contribute to society.
Greed is good.

One side effect of this ideology is that it makes social service
unpalatable. It also serves to stereotype sex roles.

I consciously avoided "do gooderism" for years before I bothered
to understand my reasoning. It's like this:

The world is run by the movers and shakers who think greed is
good and spend their days getting rich and thinking up ways to
avoid pitching in to help make the world a better place.

Those of us who spend time on social or environmental causes
are reducing our own ability to make money and compete with the
wealthy for desirable housing spaces and desirable schools for
our kids.

Spending time improving the world has the effect of easing the
ill effects of a selfish society. It thus helps to legitimize
the existing system and prop up the status quo.

In the small-town model of society, such volunteer do-goodism
was traditionally done by the wives and daughters of the town
elite. It helps legitimize the rule of that elite and prop up
the status quo.

The movers and shakers' attitude about the do gooders is thus
condescending with respect to women activists and downright
contemptuous with respect to male ones--understandably so.

Of course the present emergency with regard to stolen election,
government corruption, illegal wars, a $500 billion a year
illegal drug industry, and false-flag psy-ops as the basis for
political policy changes the situation greatly. All of us who
know what's going on are duty-bound to fight to bring the Bush
regime down. And those who don't know what's going on better
get busy finding out!

Yeah, right. They will never run out of rationalizations for their selfishness. Even the fundies. Selfishness is a Virtue.

They will look at you like you're crazy for saying things like "What about the poor?" "What about the Iraqi civilians?" Then you'll get suspicious looks, like your empathy for other people is just a big put on to make you look better than them.

The narcissism rampant in Freeperville is undeniable, and it completely dominates their attitudes on government and social order. And really, it IS social darwinism at work. It's kill-or-be-killed, act in whatever way promotes my own best interest, puts another dollar in my account.

What I DON'T get, though, is how the Christian Freepers cannot see that this way of life is completely contrary to Christian beliefs. The hypocracy is so blatant and astounding it's unbelievable.

And because they are completely clueless to their own hypocracy one is persuaded to think that to be a Freeper, you must not only subscribe to the *I* way of life, but you also must be profoundly ignorant. I guarantee you that most Freepers a) have never been out of the country b) would fail a basic geography/world events/current affairs test and c) do not have many (or any) friends/acquaintances that are from demographic other than their own. They, like Chimpy McFlightsuit, live in a bubble, and are terrified to be poked or prodded in any way from the outside world.

The worst part of it all is that I don't believe there is anything we can really do about it. You can't rationally debate someone with a child's mentality. It's a waste of time and energy. So, what do we do? I guess for now we'll just watch their leaders slowly and completely self-distruct. Then....who knows?