Some Food for Thought for Bigots (of the homophobic variety)

But then if you were capable of actual thought, you wouldn't be a bigot. Sigh

Something to share with the bigots in your life. (and we all run across bigots from time to time)


Facts About Homosexuality and Child Molestation

http://psychology.ucdavis.edu/rainbow/html/facts_molestation.html

"Using the fixated-regressed distinction, Groth and Birnbaum (1978) studied 175 adult males who were convicted in Massachusetts of sexual assault against a child. None of the men had an exclusively homosexual adult sexual orientation. 83 (47%) were classified as "fixated;" 70 others (40%) were classified as regressed adult heterosexuals; the remaining 22 (13%) were classified as regressed adult bisexuals. Of the last group, Groth and Birnbaum observed that "in their adult relationships they engaged in sex on occasion with men as well as with women. However, in no case did this attraction to men exceed their preference for women....There were no men who were primarily sexually attracted to other adult males..." (p.180).


Other Approaches

Other researchers have taken different approaches, but have similarly failed to find a connection between homosexuality and child molestation. Dr. Carole Jenny reviewed 352 medical charts, representing all of the sexually abused children seen in the emergency room or child abuse clinic of a Denver children's hospital during a one-year period (from July 1, 1991 to June 30, 1992). The molester was a gay or lesbian adult in only 2 of the 269 cases in which an adult molester could be identified – fewer than 1% (Jenny et al., 1994).
In yet another approach to studying adult sexual attraction to children, some Canadian researchers observed how homosexual and heterosexual adult men responded to slides of males and females of various ages (child, pubescent, and mature adult). All of the research subjects were first screened to ensure that they preferred physically mature sexual partners. In some of the slides shown to subjects, the model was clothed; in others, he or she was nude. The slides were accompanied by audio recordings. The recordings paired with the nude models described an imaginary sexual interaction between the model and the subject. The recordings paired with the pictures of clothed models described the model engaging in neutral activities (e.g., swimming). To measure sexual arousal, changes in the subjects' penis volume were monitored while they watched the slides and listened to the audiotapes. The researchers found that homosexual males responded no more to male children than heterosexual males responded to female children (Freund et al., 1989).

Science cannot prove a negative. Thus, these studies do not prove that homosexual or bisexual males are no more likely than heterosexual males to molest children. However, each of them failed to prove the alternative hypothesis that homosexual males are more likely than heterosexual men to molest children or to be sexually attracted to children or adolescents."

because the lynch mob can be counted on to come after the GLBT community. They would rather nurture their hate than to actually protect children.

As a member of a minority (African American male in my case), I can definitely relate. When I turn on the news and see black suspects in any crime, I get that knot. When you're a minority, your group is always judged by the "worst" members. Nobody assumed all straight white Christian males were going to blow up government buildings following Oklahoma City. Minorities don't get the benefit of that doubt. It's hurtful, and it's very damaging, and I'm sick of it.

how the hatred directed at other people for being "different" affects us all.

But so many people can't see how badly a group of people are harmed by the prejudices of others.

Maybe it's because they aren't a minority...and it doesn't directly affect their everyday lives...even though it does affect them overall. Hate spreads and it taints everything it touches.

A society so conditioned by ignorance, prejudice, and fear so much so that misinformation premised on a prejudice becomes common belief, is not an easy society to be "different" in...

I could have just said "stereotypes" but I want people to know exactly what a stereotype is

He and his friends were WAY ahead of me.

As a mother, it SUCKS to think that there are people out there, in their narrow world of self loathing and hate, who would, if given the opportunity, beat my son to death...a total stranger...because of what they judged him to be, without ever having said a word to him.

Every day I think about and worry about this dozens of times. Not just for my son, but all of his friends...good kids all of them, the kind you want other kids to hang out with, and for all those I do not know personally. (I am saying kids from the perspective of myself at nearing 47 and my son who is shortly to be 26)

BTW for the haters who may be reading - EVERY one of these young men think Mark Foley is sick in his "desire" for teenagers. Gay does NOT equate to pedophile, just as heterosexual males do not always equate to rapists or serial killers.

Now, I need a hug...or some more coffee so I can become more cutting and biting for this day.

Your son is lucky to have a mom like you.

That we live in a world where "different" can be a death sentence..all of us need all the hugs we can get.
Coffee never hurts either :)

with chocolate, caramel and whipped cream, whole milk, extra hot, screw the calorie police! Oh, and a small piece of Dagoba extra dark 68% cacoa imported from Peru chocloate...just a little tiny 1"x1" square. And a big hug from you....Life can be good too.

You be careful also...

linking for reference of some, bigots.

:toast:

why is it that there is so little thought put into cause and effect regarding all the ills of society? Oops...nevermind...I forgot about capitalism.

as in punishment...?

Retribution--it's as Murkin as apple pie.

Understanding what the actual problem is forces people to change their thinking...they hafta let go of their prejudices if they want to do something helpful.

for that matter, we tend to misunderstand and often mistreat the "symptoms", so it gives me little help in us understanding the roots of problems.

and cause there's no cash in it.

would force people to change their thinking and well nurtured cherished notions

and the reason we don't cut out the cancer is because we get the cancer as a result of our relationship with the company store. Poverty, neglect, incarceration, war, and the psycho-drama of false images built on false realities provide the best fertile breeding ground for every mal-adjustment one could imagine. And, since the company store always needs the body's...the cancer mutates and spreads. I am so depressed....

Good thing I'm normally one of those perky people ...it's not denial..it's self nurturing. :)

Otherwise, I'd go insane.

slowly but surely. Sometimes it needs adjusting.

far easier and more comfortable to hang or imprison the effect and go off satisfied that an evildoer is out of commission than it is to ferret out and admit to the causes. People have always preferred witches and devils to complicated, gray area, usually very common, forces that converge to sometimes cause problems.

Just as an example, look at Hitler. It is practically sacrelige (sp?) to imply that Hitler was caused by anything. Nope, he sprang spontaneiously from the earth evil and was therefore inevitable and (key concept here) uncontrollable.

This deserves a good discussion!

Thanks. :hi:

I just had to get it off my chest more than anything. :)

~~chortle~~

I've been thinking about this, and trying to think if I have any issues that I'm stuck on and not so amenable to research that would disprove what I think.

Hmmm.... can't think of much.

Maybe my belief that anti-depressants and the like are more for the Pharmcos than for any actual therapy. :hi:

And, now, back to you, Solly Mack.. ~~silly grin~~

ups and downs...and many times people just need someone to talk to...not drugs to numb them.

I am not discounting those who do need the drugs and I would never discount actual depression - but I don't think it's the case for each time a prescription is written. It's just easier to numb a person than it is to deal with their anger or their frustration.

Among military wives I know, a good 80% take something...and all they have to say is "My husband's deployed"..and as depressing as that can be(and it is), that doesn't mean you're clinically depressed.

but then, that's really 2 issues isn't it? ;)

Shows that the US (I almost said "we", but I certainly have no part in this!) has become very adept at "privatising" stress. And that's exactly what it amounts to! Making a profit out of the stress the military, in their wisdom, creates.

I"m disappointed...I'm not in a military family and have no experience, but I had always heard that the support on bases for families was tremendous. Shows how mistaken I was. :(

As for the rest...

What I can tell you is that many, many years ago, I knew an honest shrink. He told me that he could tell me the exact day the psychiatric profession made the decision to push drugs. It was during their annual convention, and their big discussion that year was what to do about all the psychologists and licenses social workers who were horning in on their business, and charging less because they didn't have the $$$ invested in a medical degree, and they were hurting from their business falling off.

Their answer? Push drugs, so that they would again be the sole "experts" to go to.

See how nicely that all worked out?

:mad: :nuke:

Services, Family Readiness groups, volunteer opportunities etc

You have to seek the programs out but for women with kids and jobs plus being the sole parent at home during deployments...the time isn't always there.

and at night you're still alone and the not knowing is always with you.

but it does seem to me, of the wives I know, it's easier for them (doctors) to push meds than it is to set up a consult with a psychologist.

I know of many wives who got prozac simply by requesting it. No follow up. No appointments with a shrink. Just gave them the drugs.

Viola! Your problems are solved! Just keep taking these!

and I'm an underlying issues kind of person...how is numbing you going to help you deal with the causes without addressing those causes?

mental health is a total package...you have to address the needs and the causes...not just hand out happy pills.

As in, it takes one to know one, type.

I thought I understood there was more of that, not the "organized", agency type of thing. That is very limited, indeed, and usually horrendously impersonal. (When will we get that?)

Your view on drugs is the same as mine--dang us subversives!! :rofl:

Happy pills... my word, also. Burns me up.

Ever so much easier than understanding and caring about each other.

Oh, and... I really love the ever-popular putdown "Are you off your meds?"

:puke:

We're really a cruel society...

with other military wives. There are others like me..we just don't happen to be the majority:)

But I do have friends and we keep in constant contact...and that helps...but even with them, I'm the odd-ball because of my beliefs. They're apolitical...which is ever so much better than if they were conservatives. I get frustrated that they don't take a more active role...but at least they're not conservatives. lololol

There are groups, clusters of friends within a company...but they can be more exclusive than inclusive.

but won't make any difference. The fact that gay people are less likely to molest kids is a little like that old saying "for the believer, no proof is necessary. For the sceptic, none will suffice". There's been enough psychological research done in recent years to disprove the vast majority of myths about gay people but it's never going to make any difference to the bigots, their hatred doesn't rest on reason.

Personally, I'd like to see some research done on things like why gay people are disproportionatly represented in certain professions. Assuming that the figure of 8-12% is accurate, there's a statistically disproportionate number of gay people in the entertainment industry, why? Is there something about growing up gay that causes people to be better actors (defensive camoflage perhaps) or is it simply that the entertainment industry was, until recently, more accepting of gay people than others?

why are so many straight, hard right-wing "entertainers" so damn lifeless, unoriginal, and boring?

Seriously. They're so wound up in themselves they can't cut loose and tap into their creative side. They only know how to be heavy and negative, and usually at the expense of others.

I don't know the answer, but I've kind of put it down to how people in the entertainment industry tend to be emotional introverts who wear a lot of armor, and gays more or less have to be that way to protect themselves in a society that doesn't readily accept them. So the arts may be a natural lodestone for these types -- gay or straight -- by providing them a safe environment to express themselves.

Hm, I'm probably not explaining it well but that's my theory until someone offers a better explanation or does the research. :)

people who feel alienated and/or different from those around them for any reason often end up finding expression in something creative. Also, as the previous poster mentioned, there might be the aspect of trying to either hide or fit in, more so when younger.

I think a host of factors play into people being creative. Nurture/nature. Some people are just wired to be creative. And then there's nurture...creative parents will want their home to be one where creativity is valued...so, I dunno. Teachers nurture creativity. Sometimes you have to nurture it in yourself.

Maybe in some cases just being different causes people to be funny or entertaining in a world that will ridicule you for being "different" ..so you turn to humor and antics to make them laugh instead of them beating you.

I dunno the answer.

I would say that a career that is more accepting of you as a person would be a career to have.....there's safety in numbers and no one wants to have to struggle just to be who they are...

I knew this would happen, I think everyone was worried about that from the beginning and sure enough.

Thanks. I hope you are well. It was 96 degrees here today, another reason to be glad you don't live here anymore!

Yes. This was easily predicatable...more the shame for it. It's like people never learn. They don't want to learn. They don't have to...it's not them being attacked.

It is rainy and getting cooler here. We had a hot summer (made the more so by no AC) and I was looking forward to the cooler weather.

This is one of my biggest pet peeves; the misconception put out there by asshole bigots who want to equate homosexuality with pedophilia. God, what a load of bullshit. Most pedophiles turn out to be STRAIGHT males, married more often than not.... and yes, I am aware that females can be pedophiles, before anyone calls me out on that.

A pedophile is just that... a damn child molester and it hasn't got a damn thing to do with sexual orientation. :mad:

We will never be able to address the issue of child molestation (as a nation) and never really be able to prevent it, or at least reduce it, until we, as a nation, drop the prejudice and ignorance and look at the facts.

Hiding behind the hate does nothing more than to allow the crimes to continue. And this is true about a good many things.

In many threads today about the school violence, sooo many people saying these guys just need some good sex.

:nuke:

What does it take to get through ("liberals") heads that it's about VIOLENCE, and not about SEX?????

I know that I"ve been fighting that for 40 years now--what the hell will it take to get through??

OK, I'm all better now.. thanks for listening... :hi:

he just needed some good sex?

unreal

My husband was teaching a class today on sexual assault and had to deal with that attitude..."rape is about attraction". He called not long ago to let me know how his day was going and he was so disgusted. He's in the states for 2 months.

He said "What they said about rape said more about them and what they have done or will do and it scares me. I'm afraid for women with thinking like that out there"

Unfortunately for women everywhere, this is the "enlightened" view:

"Need to have more sex. ..
Dose not matter who you get a nut with, just get a nut."

And it went on from there.

I'd really like to PM you with this, as I think it's serious, if that's OK with you.

I really appreciate that your husband takes this seriously, and is very concerned for women about what he's seeing! It really helps to know that there *are* concerned and aware men! Thanks for writing that.

I'm really sick over this. But, sadly, I know this sort of stuff has been a real problem with DU since the beginning, so I'm not at all surprised.

Just repulsed.

:mad:

the "get the nut" deal just blew my mind! At first I just took it as a really bad, oh so NOT funny joke - but then I realized he actually meant it. Wow, just wow.

Not to mention one good fellow felt the need to call me a man hater and stupid because I had the NERVE to post statistics from the DOJ on murder rates by gender. :crazy:

How are we ever going to get anywhere with attitudes like that?

:kick:
;-)

:)

couple of days. I'll take any kudos I can get. :D

Well known...but that's not quite the same thing :)

I had to say something or bust. :)

I am so sorry to hear that the actions of one man mean that an entire community will be attacked.

I just want to say the anger I feel toward Foley is not because of his sexual orientation. I believe consenting adults have every right to be with the partners of their choice as long as they are other consenting adults. People who cross this line deserve to be condemned.

I say this knowing many on DU have been victims of sexual abuse as children and as young teens. I have read that 1 of every 5 boys and 1 of every 3 girls has been molested by the age of 18. Many of us can attest to the reality firsthand.

I hope we can be supportive of each other.

PEACE

and not allow the haters to win.

We can't let them win.

Foley's sexual orientation is totally irrelevant. Despite the neurotic screams of "apologist!" I believe it's HIGHLY likely that he was molested as an early teen-ager or adolescent - and received absolutely no valid intervention or counseling. Furthermore, such a molestation would also have no relationship to sexual orientation. It IS entirely possible, however, that his emotional trauma was exacerbated by his inability to adjust to his own sexual orientation - and an overwhelming sense of repression. That would be a compounding factor mo matter what emotional adjustment difficulties he may have had at the same time.

IMHO.

What I find even more appalling than this whole fustercluck is the specious apologetics coming forth from the Speaker's Office and it's proxies ... that they felt obliged to tread more lightly a year ago due to Foley's sexual orientation. Bullshit!! That, in and of itself, is also bigotry - of an equally perverted kind.

IMHO.

Saying so doesn't excuse his behavior....it merely highlights how this can be a vicious circle.

I agree, claiming to tread lightly because of his supposed sexual orientation is also bigoted. That's basically saying that Hastert has different expectations and standards of behavior for those he sees as different..."they don't know better" and "they can't help themselves"...he sees the GLBT community has somehow less...somehow inclined to behave in a certain manner.

Hastert's a liar all the way around though. He doesn't give a rat's bottom about the GLBT community or anyone in it.

I had made the statement a day or so back that I lamented that the Foley situation was going to be used to whip up homophobia, and that I doubted that homosexuals were any more likely than heterosexuals to be attracted to children, and wondered what the research was on this. (didn't have time to check it out myself)

A big "R" from me!!

I blame all those who promote the "gay = pedophile" thinking for any attacks against the GLBT community. Actions do have consequences...folks are fond of saying that but they aren't fond of applying it to themselves.

:kick:

nt

There's a couple of people I sure would like to show these studies to, they have reached cloud nine in a matter of days, cause now they get to rant and blabber on about their favorite topic...erosion of society and the upsurge of wickedness. Clamping immediately onto the gay aspect, one even told me this afternoon that there is a secret club in DC, that delivers youth into the hands of evil, so of course that's the reason for all the problems in our country, lol. During the past year, she has developed a pretty dim view of our prez, so I asked if she thought HE might be a member of this circle of sin and she said maybe, but the good republicans will find out, cause Foley is talking now...the jig is up.

As hard as it is to reason with such people, I had made good headway until this weekend, pounding especially hard on the loss of rights/invasion of privacy and the wiretapping thing, but it's back to square one now, with this sex thing, cause all that becomes necessary in some minds, when rooting out perverts.

Anyway, I'm gonna try and absorb all those percentages and figures you've provided to prepare for my next run-in. Tho science isn't too high on some conservatives' lists, at least it's coming from the APA and that may carry some weight. Did you notice that the guy who provided info at that site, Dr. Gregory Herek, helped with the Lawrence vs. Texas case?

The science isn't too high because it contradicts what they want to believe. Anything that challenges their thinking is evil and wrong...and must be destroyed.

I think it's due to their life experience alot more than whatever their base belief may be. Not all of the bigots that I'm friends with are fundies and normally don't even place so much value on "godliness", per se. But with this drumming up of hatred for homosexuals that the right-wing has accomplished so effectively, good people are easily swayed thru political loyalties. Folks who actually have overcome some pretty damning bigotry, such as hatred of migrants, since around here we have direct evidence that the propaganda condemning Hispanics is totally off the mark, because we live as friends and neighbors within an agricultural community, yet now, after all these years of having the "marriage issue" brought to the fore, they can't understand that discriminating against the gay community is simply a political ploy, because they don't know anyone who is of that persuasion and base their judgment on what comes straight down from leaders in Washington. It's in their own experience (or lack of it) that allows them to be convinced that somewhere, there surely must be crazy gay folk who represent a threat to the lifestyle here, out in the sticks.

I hope this makes sense, but it just seems that if more people actually had hands-on knowledge that homosexuals are not the sex-crazed, moral-threatening, society-destroying, agenda-driven fiends that the right-wing makes them out to be, that misconception would disappear fairly quickly. This Foley thing has simply reinforced the conservative stance.

It makes me sick and I was roiling with anger before this happened. All the progress I'd made has been washed down the drain, with one perv.

fear of the unknown...what we don't know we fear...and we learn to hate if that fear is left to flourish and grow. Educating does a good deal to change all that.

Politicians understand that..so they appeal to it. Appeals to prejudice sways more people than an appeal to reason.

Some fear is rational - experience teaches that.

But take a person who is so caught up in their hate...their hate is who they are...so anything that challenges the hate, challenges their very being...and they will fight against it tooth and nail.

They are afraid. Back to fear.

A man who lives in fear that he might be seen as gay,because of his own ignorance and because of a patriarchal society that holds an idiotic notion of manhood, will overcompensate with displays of aggression. He'll also attack those he views as weak...as a means to feel better about himself. He'll attack those he sees as a threat to his manhood..or rather, what society has told him manhood means.

So there we have a system...a paradigm...that relies on certain way of defining things to exist. Anything that challenges that thinking is a danger to the paradigm....a danger to the power structure

:hug:

:hug:

If only stupidity that severe carried with it genetic markers causing a high propsnsity towards strong suicidal impulses... the world would be a LOT better off.

won't listen. They won't have their world view challenged. Some of them are so used to hate being dressed up as "values" and "morals", they don't know it's hate.

than I'd like to...

Unreasonable hate is hate, and any thinking person should be able to recognize it as such.

I say 'unreasonable' because I sure have hate in my heart, but it isn't there for any unfair or unreasonable reason. Heh... I like that... unreasonable reason.

I dunno. When children grow up to spout what their parents spouted and their parents before them...the hated dressed up as values and morals...I think sometimes they really don't know. They're just mouthing what they've always heard without ever examining it for any validity.

It's their fault they don't know. At a certain stage or age, people are responsible for looking at the beliefs handed down by their parents and seeking to find if those beliefs are sound or not.

I think the majority of people just don't want to know because they don't have to know...the hate is not directed at them so why do they don't have to concern themselves with it...it happens to other people and besides, those people deserve it because of X factor (they're different, they're immoral, they're not like us, they're the enemy)

Not really the benefit of the doubt...just trying to understand how such hate develops and grows..and spreads from one generation to the next.

:evilgrin:

I used to want that... now I just wish they would all eat a bullet for the good of humanity. :7

Ah well, if wishes were horses... ;)

:)

I've also got an electrode stimuli attitude readjustment program

I'm not always willing to understand

it's at my angriest when I entertain such notions

Like yesterday...with the PA shooter of the little girls.

The sexism here--sickening!

The racism that's still tolerated... sickening!

The lack of concern on the part of "liberals" about poor folk in this country. :cry:

It's all highly sickening, and makes some of us want to hide under a rock until some degree of maturity can be gained.

It has me ready to give up.

"If only stupidity that severe carried with it genetic markers causing a high propsnsity towards strong suicidal impulses... the world would be a LOT better off."

Totally and completely agree. Unfortunately, the ones killing themselves, to some degree, are those who are sensitive enough to care and can't deal with the preponderance of crap anymore, and those who are too poor to find a way to survive.

:cry:

argh... I share your pain, bobbolink... try to hang in there... maybe that pendulum is about to change directions.

:pals:

NT!