Not to sound like Trent Lott, but how exactly DO the Sunni and Shia

muslims identifiy each other as one or the other?

Serious question; something I've wondered about for a while?

Is there a "typical" type of family nme that identifies a person as one or the other? Do people in Arab countries have their affilitation printed on their government ID cards?

I'd appreciate any answers. You hear all the time about groups of one of them looking for some of the other kind to kill in Baghdad, but how do they know?

Redstone

The same way people in the US could often identify somebody as a Catholic or a Jew back when even more people took religion waaaaaaaaaaaaaay too fucking seriously.

maybe 800 people. One was for the German Catholics, the other was for the Polish Catholics and you just knew who went where.

me. If you go to the wrong one people will subtly let you know. It's pretty lame if you ask me.

raw had a story abot iraqis changing their name.

a lot were getting killed for having cars with a certain province on the plate.

but, basically they can't tell without some telltale signs.

Names, maybe slight differences in accents, places of birth, I heard even certain ringtones can mark you as one or the other.

Redstone

"If I had an outfit, I'd be one too"...
:eyes:

"What are ye?" in a menacing tone.

Usually you can tell by someone's surname or if you are from the area you knew what school they went to.

Also it was a well known fact that catholics had horns.:sarcasm:

together". That's how he tells them apart from non-Catholics.

I swear to God, that's what he said.

:crazy:

Seriously, how is that different than say being able to identify baptists, catholics, or jewish folks here ? Name "maybe"... and thats a big maybe.... "looks"... no way....

Should be interesting to hear what others think....

Thanks for asking...

MZr7

make idiotic bigoted statements.....Trent Lott is....anyhoo

I remember reading something awhile back that said that their last names were one of the identifiers....many of one group were changing their last names so they wouldn't be attacked....

I am sure there are things like places of worship types of clothing but the name is the only one I know...

a real puzzle to me.

Redstone

That is a damned good question, friend.

LeftyMom pretty much nailed it.

Remember when you were a kid and pretty much could tell a lot about people by what neighborhood they lived in and the church(es) they attended?

And then when you were a little older and would read people by their manner(s) of speech, clothing and attitude?

You know how all Chinese waiters looked the same to us way back then?

Remember when we thought that all Vietnamese people were gooks and probably Cong as well?

It's all societal, Redstone.

Good question.

You say I asked a good question?

I'll reply that you (and LM and some others) provided a damn good answer.

(PS: I didn't see any Victors that I remember...different time, different part of the country. The NVA all had helmets and stuff, even a tank or two, so it was a hell of a lot easier than it was for you. The recognition part, I mean. Probably a lot of other aspects, as well. I'd have crapped out early if I had tried to do what you and your guys did.)

Redstone

And think about how many degrees of separation there are in smaller towns and villages, which make up the majority of Iraq. Is it three? Two? I'd bet you could drive in with a band of thugs and come up with a complete list in under an hour.

because that is all that Americans can comprehend.

The tribal alliances and grudges greatly complicate the situation.

There are so many cross-loyalties and rivalries and grudges that go back for generations that our inner workings and comprehension is totally incompetent to deal with the situation.

someone their family had a feud with (six generations ago) just from hearing a name.

That's the reason their houses are four or five stories high and have tiny windows and heavily-bolted doors.

I shit you not. They're all mini-castles.

Doesn't strike me as much of a way to live. I'll believe in some honor myself, but not to that point.

Redstone

Where you live, who you know, what you wear, how you observe the religion in your personal effects - it's not that hard if you grew up in it.

ones) tended to be tall, and the other short.

Not, of course, that there couldn't be the odd tall one of the short ethnic group...

Fucking insanity, all of it.

Redstone

Is black on the left side of the face and white on the other, and the other group is black on the right side and white on the other.

Or that may be the Frank Gorshin episode of Star Trek called, "Let That Be Your Last Battlefield."

TlalocW

about the differences...


I remember as a child, during a visit, I was playing outside with one of the neighbors children. Amal was exactly my age- we were even born in the same month, only three days apart. We were laughing at a silly joke and suddenly she turned and asked coyly, “Are you Sanafir or Shanakil?” I stood there, puzzled. ‘Sanafir’ is the Arabic word for “Smurfs” and ‘Shanakil” is the Arabic word for “Snorks”. I didn’t understand why she was asking me if I was a Smurf or a Snork. Apparently, it was an indirect way to ask whether I was Sunni (Sanafir) or Shia (Shanakil).

“What???” I asked, half smiling. She laughed and asked me whether I prayed with my hands to my sides or folded against my stomach. I shrugged, not very interested and a little bit ashamed to admit that I still didn’t really know how to pray properly, at the tender age of 10.

Later that evening, I sat at my aunt’s house and remember to ask my mother whether we were Smurfs or Snorks. She gave me the same blank look I had given Amal. “Mama- do we pray like THIS or like THIS?!” I got up and did both prayer positions. My mother’s eyes cleared and she shook her head and rolled her eyes at my aunt, “Why are you asking? Who wants to know?” I explained how Amal, our Shanakil neighbor, had asked me earlier that day. “Well tell Amal we’re not Shanakil and we’re not Sanafir- we’re Muslims- there’s no difference.”

It was years later before I learned that half the family were Sanafir, and the other half were Shanakil, but nobody cared. We didn’t sit around during family reunions or family dinners and argue Sunni Islam or Shia Islam. The family didn’t care about how this cousin prayed with his hands at his side and that one prayed with her hands folded across her stomach. Many Iraqis of my generation have that attitude. We were brought up to believe that people who discriminated in any way- positively or negatively- based on sect or ethnicity were backward, uneducated and uncivilized.



http://www.riverbendblog.blogspot.com/ 3/18/06



<edit> I might not be correct but I heard once catholics and greek orthodox make the sign of the cross backwards from one another.. it seems like the same little difference here

but not sure which sect it came from:

"Spectacles, testicles, wallet and watch"

But it never really worked for me 'cause I'd end up pointing to my left wrist and my ass...

I do appreciate that joke (especially being a lapsed Catholic).

Redstone

edit: got confused, thought this was the Emo Phillips ref.

Eric Idle and some big guy whose name eludes me

in a Welcome to DU, since we haven't met.

I do indeed you taking the time to write your story.

Redstone

Sunni If you recall images Saddam wore a head scarf with the cloth tie (his was white indicating he had not done a Hajj pilgrimage) Red and Checkered or Black and Checkered indicate the Muslim has done the Hajj.

Shia- a black turban indicates the man is a descendant of Muhammad (PBUH) and a white indicates he is not.

Redstone

and if someone had a Shiite name they'd kill him. There's all sorts of subtle cultural markers. If you say a Pentacostal, a Baptist, and an Episcopalian in a line up, you could probably pick out the Episcopalian nine times out of ten. (Hint, look for the one wearing Gucci tassle loafers).

Also, there subtle degrees of ethnic markers--by sight you can frequently tell if someone is German or French or Russian. Forced to identify what it is that tips me off, I'm not sure I could--yet I can usually tell who's from where.

Besides surnames and given names (nearly wrote 'Christian names' --heh) I imagine dress, regional accent, and socioeconomic status will give a tip off. My Iranian Shiite friend tells me Sunnis are poorer, less educated, more superstitious, more mobocratic. Shia, on the other hand, are just condescending as hell. Think about them as Baptists and Lutherans respectively.

In my own given name, there's a one-letter difference denoting if the lineage of the name is Irish or English.

Thanks.

Redstone

to this question:

The Wisdom Of Emo Phillips
I was walking across a bridge one day, and I saw a man standing on the edge, about to jump off. So I ran over and said "Stop! don't do it!" "Why shouldn't I?" he said. I said, "Well, there's so much to live for!" He said, "Like what?" I said, "Well...are you religious or atheist?" He said, "Religious." I said, "Me too! Are you christian or buddhist?" He said, "Christian." I said, "Me too! Are you catholic or protestant?" He said, "Protestant." I said, "Me too! Are you episcopalian or baptist?" He said, "Baptist!" I said,"Wow! Me too! Are you baptist church of god or baptist church of the lord?" He said, "Baptist church of god!" I said, "Me too! Are you original baptist church of god, or are you reformed baptist church of god?" He said,"Reformed Baptist church of god!" I said, "Me too! Are you reformed baptist church of god, reformation of 1879, or reformed baptist church of god, reformation of 1915?" He said, "Reformed baptist church of god, reformation of 1915!" I said, "Die, heretic scum", and pushed him off. -- Emo Phillips

And it was damn funny that time, too. Thanks for posting it. It's relevant as well as being funny.

Redstone

they've lived with and amongst each other for centuries? Either that or they ask Negroponte what's the payoff.

Framing the question outside the language of the oppressor.