The Amish Schoolhouse Massacre and what it shows us about Christianity.

Andrew Sullivan's blog

If you were the Amish community dealing with this tragedy, what is the one thing you would want?

PEACE and QUIET.

You would want all the press, reporters, police, and do-gooders to leave you the hell alone so you can go back to doing what you do: grieving the loss of loved ones as a tight knit community free of lookie-loos.

...have shown us all just how far the would-be 'Christian' theocrats have wandered from the true teachings of their faith. The Amish practice Christianity. The religious right practic tribalism.

I also don't think I've ever seen such a stark example of following the Golden Rule and its difficulties: "Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us"

Muslims reacting to cartoons.

I have to tell you they are beginning to wear a bit thin.

As far as the Amish go; This is the saddest thing ever for me. These people don't bother anyone, and just want to be left alone. And, some fuck comes up and starts shooting little girls.

I can't even stand to read about it. You have no idea how this breaks my heart

It is haunting.

a Mennonite or "amish" person?
They ARE humble, but they are also very insular and operate like many of the more oppressive cults. Girls are married extremely young, and they are extremely intolerant of anyone who is not amish.
I've known both them and some of their children who had to leave the commune because they didn't agree with the tenets. They are essentially "dead" to their own family, and they are as virulently opposed as any deprogrammed cult member.

I"m just sayin...I'm no expert on this religion, but I have met and talked with some people in the northern Illinois area who tell me these things.


ON the other hand, turning the other cheek is a good thing. I would hold up as examples of humility and christian strenght the Quakers, instead, even though I'm not one myself. They are committed to peace and actively pursue it for everyone, rather than secluding themselves away from the world.

I think it is wonderful that their faith offers such forgiveness. But forgiveness is a double-edged sword.
They forgive pedophilia, child abuse, spousal abuse, etc within their own community...with a period of shunning.
However, they don't welcome people into their faith and they don't forgive those that leave their faith.
We have many German Mennonite communities in this area that came up from Mexico. It is interesting, nonetheless, to hear Germans speak Spanish.
However, they are also closed communities and when they come into the hospital to deliver their babies, the wives always look much older than the husbands.
To each his own--I will say though, they don't impose their religion on anyone and that is the difference from the fundies.

It's very instructive to see an Amish family sometimes: a man in his 30s with no grey in his beard, eight children in stairsteps, and a woman who looks like the man's granny but who is really his wife.

The life they lead is especially hard on women.

I do admire them in other ways, though.

They don't ever try to force their beliefs down anyone elses throats either. Good people they are.

not their entire lifestyle, etc.

I didn't mean to get into an analysis of everything else.

"extremely young" They cannot marry another Amish person until they are members of the church. They are not permitted to join the church until they are young adults, typically very late teens or early twenties.

IIRC, the average age at marriage for the girls is maybe 20. Yeah, go ahead and excoriate them for that!!!!!!!!!!! And BTW, they are very tolerant and accepting of those who choose to never marry.

They don't live in "communes". This is just utter BS. Maybe you have them mistaken for Hutterites, a ND/SD/Alberta/Saskatchewan sect that actually lives communally????? But I suspect you just delight in perpetuating completely fabricated nonsense.

gossip the most about those who are different, and it usually takes that form of, "don't you know they marry their sisters and their babies are born with tails?" The Amish are, in my experience, sweet and sincere people. Too bad they have such sinister things ascribed to them because they don't look and act like everyone else.

mennonites. As I said, I'm no expert. Since you ARE an expert, apparently, thanks for your corrections.
Also, from what I observed in talking with families in the religion in northern Illinois. I can only relate what I was told.

Although I could have gone without the character assasinations along with the education.

I'd say you got off lightly.

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I went to school in Amish country & lived alongside Amish communities. I'm no expert either, but what you're saying is not a fair depiction of the Amish. It's not a "cult," for one - once kids reach 18, they can choose whether they want to remain in the Amish community or join the modern world. During a period called Rumspringa, teens can be free of the strict Amish codes & wear modern clothes, interact w/non-Amish people, even party. Where I was, the Amish kids would sometimes have keggers w/their friends & even play in rock bands. Once you reach 25, you then have to choose whether you want to join the modern world or adopt the Amish life - and most choose to remain in the Amish community. Women do not usually marry young, but will marry at some point after 18 when they decide to settle down w/an Amish lifestyle. They are not intolerant towards outsiders, but treat everybody with dignity, respect & reserve. The key is the Amish's deep belief in humility & peace. They live their religion everyday, and value community & family far above the individualism that's a feature of larger American society. I have a deep respect for the Amish, and it is beyond tragic that they should have to suffer such a horrible event in their community.

You paint with a very broad brush. And only the Hutterites live in communes - The Hutterites are neither Amish nor Mennonite. Not sure if you meant commune or community but they are not the same thing. As for shunning, which you appear to be referring to, it is not practiced by most Mennonites except for possibly some of the Old Order Mennonites - in fact shunning is one of the reasons the Amish split off from the Mennonites in the late 1600s. The practice of shunning takes different forms even among the Amish. It is hard to generalize about any Amish practice, including shunning, because practices differ from community to community as there is no overall church hierarchy among the Amish. There is a common oral tradition called the Ordnung but its local application varies from one community to the next. For example, some Amish use only horses in farming, while others will allow tractors with steel wheels. Some Amish will permit electric lights on their buggies, others insist on only kerosene lamps. Most Amish do not permit telephones in their houses but I have seen Amish in Indiana carrying cell phones. Even the "seclusion" you talk about is not really correct. It is true tha Amish have their own schools and socialize mostly among themselves. But many of them shop in the same stores as anyone else and many have businesses that cater to the general public. Some work in factories such as RV manufacturing plants in Indiana. Many participate in organizations such as Mennonite Disaster Service which uses volunteers to clean up and rebuild after hurricanes and tornadoes (in the general community, not just in Amish or Mennonite communities).

I wasn’t really surprised to read that because there’s usually some Christian connection to most of these nuts that go off on murder rampages or serial killings. I saw where his wife was at a prayer meeting at the exact time he was killing those little girls. Charles Roberts was described by one of his relatives as coming from a fine Christian family....figures

It is also very unfamiliar - which says something considering what a predominantly "Christian" nation we live in.

:eyes: Nice taking a good thread about the positive religious faith of the Amish and shit all over it with your personal grudges.

85% of Americans are Christians. So of course most crimes are perpetrated by Christians, even the really nasty crimes.

are committed by the amish?

since there aren't many Amish. But the posts I was responding to were about Christians in general, not specific sects.

involving one of the most peaceful communities associated with the cristian faith for some to lump them in with the whole it seems.

I am not a member of any religion, life is too short and the afterlife will have to take care of itself as far as I am concerned. Crime will come to all communities and If you were to list all religions, not just christians, you would see a lot more negative responses than I have given.

Take that leap and include the jews, Hindus etc and we are probably closer to 97%.

Then we can have a simple comparative without "specific sects." Almost all crime is committed by religious people.

Short of a scientific breakdown of crime per capita by each sect, I feel your statement unfair to the amish as a people.

disturbed because there were so many men in prison who had been raised Lutheran.

He started to wonder if there was some particular pathology about being Lutheran, so he wrote to prison chaplains in other states to find out the percentage of Lutherans in their incarcerated population.

A letter came back from a prison chaplain in Louisiana: "What's a Lutheran?"

What it shows me about Christianity is that Christians can be so evil as to murder little girls, and Christians can be so good as to forgive the murderer. So Christians run the whole gamut of moral behavior. Just like everyone else.

These are people (the Amish) who have tried to live in their own peaceful society, & yet the violence came to them anyway. Just so sad. :-(

Tammy

Shit. I've never heard THAT one, before. :eyes:

This was about the Amish's reaction to an unbelievable tragedy.

The only people criticized at all are the intolerant, hateful RW Christians - not Atheists.

Geez...

Although he's right in that there is a wing of the GOP (particularly social libertarians) that is ripe for the picking by the Democratic party, if we're willing to embrace an agenda of personal freedom and civil liberties.

But it's hard for me to get past my reflexive thinking that the guy is an idiotic, neo-con shill. Old habits die hard.

past experience.

Some people I just refuse to listen to in any way - Coulter is one of them.

The point was about the Amish, not Sully.

:)

There was certainly not the subtext of implication that only "real" Christians are capable of being moral. I jumped the gun 'cuz it was Sullivan. Mea Culpa and Sorry and the rest.

Peace.

:-)