It is time.

After watching the Democratic party fail, due to both a lack of spine and a lack of leadership, have you realized that it is time? Time for us to take our energy, our money, our blood, sweat, tears and most importantly take our vote elsewhere. It is time.

We have watched in anger as the Democratic party has sold us out, time and again. You all know the litany by now, IWR, Patriot Act, bankruptcy bill, on and on. Now add Alito, the first step towards fascism. The Democrats have again failed us. And yet in the past we have continued to reward them, will we continue to do so now? I don't think that we should.

What happens when a victim of abuse continues to stay with the abuser? More violence, more abuse. That is analogous to what is occuring in the party now. Time and again the Dems have sold us out, and yet time and again we come back, only to be sold out again. It is a basic tenat of psychology that if you rewards somebody for their bad behaviour, they will continue to exhibit that same bad behaviour. We have rewarded the Dems for their bad behaviour far too long, and thus they have continued behaving badly. It must stop, now.

I know, I know, all of the old arguements against leaving the party. But despite decades of trying, despite the efforts of countless thousands, the strategy of changing the party from within has only resulted in our further alienation from the party, watching in the distance as the party moves ever more rightward, ever more away from our interests.

The party doesn't need our money people. For every dollar withheld by us, they can pick up two from a Wall Street brokerage firm or multinational corporation. For every man hour we withhold from them, they can pick up two by appealing to special interests we are diametrically opposed to. The only thing we have left, the only arrow remaining in our quiver is our vote, for that is the only thing that the Democrats cannot replace.

Yes, yes, I know. The old arguement that if we split the vote the Republicans win. Well, first of all, if we vote en masse for another party or candidate, there is a good chance that we will be competitive, perhaps even win here and there. And such small successes have a tendency to snowball. Secondly, what have we to gain by staying here in the party? They haven't protected us from the worst of the Bush storm, it has only become worse. They have demonstrated time and again their inability and/or unwillingness to fight for us. Even if the party is returned to majority power in '06, do you honestly think that they're going to address our interests, our priorities? I think that recent history emphatically answers NO.

So what do we have to lose? Little or nothing. But we have one last good chance to regain our country, but that chance does not lie with the Democrats, it is upon us. We must visibly and publicly demonstrate that still and all, this is a government of the people. Use that last arrow in our quiver, it is time. Withhold your vote and your support from the Democratic party, support a new party. Then, perhaps the Dems will wake up and realize what they've done, and again become responsive to us. If not, then they will go the way of the Whigs, and a new party, more represenative of us and our values, will arise to take its place.

It is, in all reality, the only option we have left.

Seriously!!

It's my party too and I'm not about to give up. You know how Hitler won in Germany with less than 40% of the vote - DIVIDE AND CONQUER. He was in the minority but the more he could divide up the rest of Germany the better chance it was for his party to take over and you know how that fricking turned out.

I'll stop voting democrat when you pry my democratic voter registration from my cold dead hands!

That's one thing I've always found puzzling about liberals and progressives. The statement that " I would vote for candidate X, but he just doesn't have a chance to win" Well he damn well would have a chance if every single person who made such statement would go out and vote for him!

And what, exactly are we getting out of the Democrats? War, poverty and fascisim. Every single thing on the Republican wish list. Can't get much worse than that. Again, the Democrats had a chance to spare us from this blow, yet instead, through weak knees, weak leadership, and a desire to please their corporate masters, the Dems sold us down the river to fascism. Yet you want to stay around for more of the same? Wow, I can't be that much of a glutton for punishment.

And guess what, Hitler was a third party candidate, winning in a multiparty race. What says that we couldn't do the same?

And you still haven't figured out why Kerry won the primaries and not Dean or Clark (both darlings of the internet).

Maybe our problem isn't them in DC but us here online talking the talk but doing nothing to go out there and reach the real people, people who have lives that don't revolve 24X7 over the next great blog or online forum.

I love DU and the time that I've spent there but let's face it - we lost that vote not because of our effort but because there are just more democrats out there that aren't getting involved - way more of them then us.

You want to make a difference - get local. Rants online here will NOT affect the democratic party nor the most important people that we fail to influence election after election and that's NOT our elected officials but the everyday democrat out there who does the patriotic thing and votes but could absolutely positively care less about all this stuff happening online. And trust me, these people aren't going to switch parties.

Who cares what party Hitler was - the point was, which you overlooked is he knew he could grasp control of Germany by dividing the nation. Then he dumbed down it's citizens so they would be clueless to what was happening.

So if you want to make a different stop worrying about what's happening in DC and start figuring out who is on your school board. That's how the neo-cons started taking over this country by pushing their people into our school boards, town councils and county government. Then they use religion to numb the minds of their citizens in order to think voting republican was somehow good because that's what Jesus would do.

But please go for it. I'm guessing from that KC Chief avatar you're someplace in the midwest where you have state & local governments shoving ID, anti-gay and anti-choice legislation down your throat. No sweat off my back because for me I'm here in liberal delaware where we're pushing to protect the people bit by bit (and if we can get rid of just one majority chair then maybe we'll get that anti-discrimination bill that recognizes gay couples in regards to benefits (hey it's a start) through committee).

Today's vote should make you fight harder to make changes - but maybe we should make the changes local where we can make the greatest affect in the long run!

I'm not, I've been involved for thirty plus years, from the street work back when I was an eleven year old kid, to convention delegate. I know how the party works, inside and out, and have remained involved and engaged on both the local and national level for decades. And yet all of my work, all of our work at changing the party locally, from within, etc. etc. has amounted to bupcus, zip, zero, nada.

This isn't some recent revelation on my part, it is something that has been building since the Clinton administration. You state that we need to reach out to those who aren't involved, well who are those? The countless millions of liberals and progressives who have dropped out of voting entirely because *gasp* they see nothing in the Democratic party for them! Gee, if we go to a different party, a party that represents both our interests and the interests of these non-voters, we will have power! My God, non-voters are the vast majority of Americans, and the majority of non-voters are liberal. Join the Greens, throw out the big bone of UHC, and these people will come swarming to our banner in their thousands and millions. The Dems aren't going to put up UHC, their corporate masters won't allow them. But if you offer these programs that the people want, you will get the votes you need.

And the Alito vote didn't make me fight harder for change, it just confirmed what changes need to be made. And those changes don't involve the Democratic party anymore.

IS their base. Maybe we have to be willing to lose some more in the short term to have them hit rock bottom and pay attention to us.

Unless you can work the simultaneous destruction of the Democratic Party, this effort would end the same way.

And not just a construct of TR's ego, they migh very well be the major leftist party today. But sadly, after having an impressive opening round, they fell apart because TR gave up. With their leader gone, the rest followed.

But that is the failure of a party built around one person. Greens aren't built around the cult of personality, they are built around the people. A much better chance of success, and more comparable to the Republicans when they first emerged. The Whigs made the same mistake that the Democrats are making, failing to follow the will of their constituents. The Republicans built on this, taking in the many thousands of disaffected Whigs. Their first time out their success was modest, and yes, the Dems had a four year run of power. But in their second outing, the Republicans gained some serious power, including voting in one of the most revered presidents in this country's history. And the Whigs, well they just went away. The ones who stuck around until the election of 1860 quietly joined the Republicans, and the Whigs went to the scrapheap of history.

That is the model we need to follow

Why don't we just kick the bums out of this one?

We ARE the Democratic Party. Let us change it.

Primaries are a joke for the most part. A pitting of one corporate Dem against another, and the largest war chest wins. Withholding our money, again the Dems just go tap their corporate masters on the shoulder and double the contributions given out by us "little people" Change from within has been a rallying cry since I first started in the party thirty plus years ago, and change has happened. The trouble is that it hasn't been change for the better, instead it has changed for the worse. A party that has become ever more right, and ever more corporate. The left is unheeded and unwanted, except for our vote. They still need our vote, thus the only way to make the party listen is to withhold it, to bestow it elsewhere. Then, maybe then they will listen. If not, then they will become irrelevant.

I'll be setting up Meetup.com local meetings this week. I suggest this is a good place to start to get organized.

"Progressive Democrat Party"

The time has come for a party split. Progressive Democrats can more effectively leverage our numbers if we take the 20 odd senators and 80 or so reps and form a new party with better discipline and a unified party platform.

We can also form a coalition with the Greens. Something that has long been and assumption made by the arrogance of the Democratic party.

The first steps are to locate a suitable forum location to base operations out of and start recruiting Senators and Representatives both at the state and local levels to leave the Democratic party and form a new party. (Meetup.com will likely be the location)

Progressive Democrat citizens need to know that this is the way. The first step is to recruit a leader already on the national stage. Who shares the values and platform that focuses on:

Peace
Clean Renewable Energy
Universal Healthcare
Election Reform
Sane Military Spending
Infrastructure
Free Quality Education
Public Media Ownership
Corporate Responsibility
Choice
Separation of Church and State
Marriage Equity

Look how well voting for a third party candidate worked for progressives in 2000! No, thanks. I want to get rid of the Republicans I want them OUT!!! That isn't going to happen by continuing to split the progressive votes. I will not be a part of that.

After all, doing the same thing over and over again(like voting for the corporatist Dems) and expecting a different result everytime is a form of insanity. Thanks, but no. I would rather deal with reality, and the reality isn't with the Democratic party.

Most Americans are in the middle of the political spectrum (think Bell curve)and generally speaking, are going to stick with the party they know. A new Progressive Democrat party will be painted as extreme left wing, and most people aren't comfortable with that position. Dividing our party is the last thing we should be focusing on right now, unless of course you want more of the same. That's reality.

And more liberal than the MSM paints them. Don't buy that old chestnut. Most Americans want UHC, want us out of Iraq, want publicly funded elections, want to help the poor, want to keep their civil rights, want to stop outsourcing of jobs, and think that both parties are made up of corporate lapdogs.

Offer them a real, viable, liberal alternative that will make a real difference in their life, and they will swarm to the voting booth.

Unfortunately, most do not realize that the corporatoacracy is holding the reins. I really do wish that your dream could become reality, but I believe the fix is in. The corporatocracy has a stranglehold on the world and won't be stopped.

Certainly won't change a damn thing, except for the worse.

We've tried playing this game for a long while, and it hasn't helped. The whole "change the party from within" meme has been seen for the Big Lie that it is time and again.

Therefore we really have one option left, to go out and fight for our country on our own, without the Democratic party. You start offering proposals that make a real difference in peoples' lives, and all of those fed up, non-voting liberals and progressives will come swarming to our banner. For we will be offering one thing that the Democratic party can no longer offer; Hope. And with Hope, you can change the world.

Instead of sticking together, weeding out the bad apples in the party, as soon as we lose its cut and run away time. I don't like what happened, but at least we didn't just roll over and give the repukes a free ride on this. Third parties will never get off the ground because most third parties are full of nut cases that make born agains look sane. Look at run away Ross as an example of how third parties leaders are. The green party? Its a joke lead by one of the biggest government must protect us fools alive, Nader. Check into Nader and the Corvair and you'll see where good old Ralph stood as far as foreign products and american products were concerned. This is why the repukes have been on a victory run, they know for all of our tough talk from our democratic reps, the majority of the democratic party, the voters, give up and refuse to stand up. Look to the 60's for the real leaders of the democratic party, not senators or presidents, but regular people that got fed up enough to actually do more then bitch and moan about its not fair. Do you think MLK was afraid of the system? Remember back when he started his peace march blacks in the south had a bad habit of being found dead in their cells. Remember, its ot who we pick to lead us that matters, its about us being able to pick the leaders. We are te democratic party, not those in office nor those running for office. We been sitting back on our behinds not doing our job of keeping our wants front and foremost in our reps minds, we allowed the democratic party to go soft.

For a long time now....the "game is over".

Time for a new game.

Splitting off and forming a new party will force the traditional democratic party to from a coalition. I am okay with "losing" as long as it is term I can accept. I know I can be part of a group that will maintain integrity and will NOT postion themselves with Republicans to get bones tossed at them once in a while.

I want to BE OBSTRUCTIONIST. I WANT TO STOP THEM. but as long as memebers of the Democratic party leadership are okay with giving away values for votes then I'll have no part of it.

Without unity of vision and values a party is nothing.

I won't be part of a party that disciminates and dissolves our Democracy...many in the democratic party seem okay with that.

I've been "sticking with the party" since McGovern, as have the vast majority of progressives and leftists. And guess what? The only change that we've seen is for the worse. A movement to the right that is so vast, a former Goldwater Girl, pro war, pro corporate, is right now our leading presidential candidate:eyes:

And you really should get your facts straight. Nader isn't the "leader of the Green Party". He didn't run as a Green in '04, and the Greens really don't want any more to do with him. The Greens are led by a novel group called "the people", ie Green Party members. Something the Dems used to do back in the day, but that day is long gone. Now they walk to the beat of the corporate drummer, much like the Republicans.

And you may have been sitting on your ass, but most of us on the political left have been heavily involved in Democratic politics for years. And what has our reward been for all of our hard work? Screwed, blued and tatooed. Sorry friend, I don't stick around with anybody who is going to continously abuse me. I fight back.

We have kept our wishes forefront in our reps minds, yesterday was but the latest example. And once again, much like the IWR, the Patriot Act, the bankruptcy bill, and oh so much more, we were ignored. It is time for a real change.

1. I've always appreciated the Democratic platform (mostly). But what good is a fantastic platform if only a couple of Democrats stand up for that platform now 'n then, once in awhile, when it's safe to do so? Pretty damned useless, not to mention embarrassing. I'm mostly proud of the platform, why aren't they?
2. If we're going to build up a party from scratch, then does it really matter which one we use as a base? In marketing terms, maybe the Democratic brand has gone bad. Can it ever regain respect? Maybe it's time for a new brand. I don't know.

No answers, just the two things that I'm wondering about as I figure out the next steps I'm going to take. I've been a yellow dog since 1986, so I'm pretty stubborn. But I'm tired of begging someone, anyone, to fight for my principles, that's for sure.:(

:eyes:

Tell you what; I will join your hypothetical "third party" AFTER it is viable. Come back then.:eyes:

By going against your interests, and the collective interests of its constituents, time and again. Gee, we've all seen how well that has worked out:eyes: An illegal, immoral war, stripping of our civil rights, lifetime appointments of fascist judges to name a very few.

Gee, that strategy is really working out well now, isn't it?:eyes:

hits your butt HARD on the way out.

Than the blows the Democratic party and its represenatives have delivered over the past years. War, media conglomeration, shredding of the social safety net, stripping on our civil rights, and on, and on ad nauseum. Yes, after thirty plus years of working with the party, the blows are many and the scars are deep. Leaving the party, hell, that's a love tap in comparison.

But hey, stay if you want, engage in that collective insanity. You know the kind I'm talking about, don't you? The insanity that arises from doing the same thing over and over(ie supporting the Dems and being repeatedly slapped down), yet expecting a different result every time. Sorry friend, I can no longer live with such insanity.

Have fun out there. I'm going to stay and work to change this beast from the inside. And don't play that insanity card with me. Demonizing those who disagree with you will get you nowhere.

After thirty plus years of working with this party. After doing everything from walking the street to convention delegate. I'm through, I've tried with many other old timers to "change from within" Sorry, it hasn't worked out, and as long as corporate America calls the shots in this party, it will never work out. But hey, if you want to get a headache from beating your head against that wall, that's you business. I'm done with it, my head hurts way too much to have so little to show for it.

The complicity of the corporate media in ridiculing, mocking and, yes, demonizing the Democratic party with GOP talking points and heavily right-leaning opinion panels is the real problem. Liberal media my ass! That is the true enemy. The corporate media. That is what must change. Not leaving the Democratic party. That will feel good for a while. But it won't change a damn thing.

I'd like to know.

Progressives and liberals of ALL stripes are welcome here, so yeah, I'll be around. Besides, do you really want a left wing echo chamber? I thought intellectually honest liberals and progressives were above that sort of thing:shrug:

I share your frustration. But we live in an entrenched two party system and the quickest route to change lies in reforming the Democratic party.

You have two choices. One is considerably worse. All withholding your vote does is help the Republicans. Everyone knows that. I'd bet that a majority of the people on this board are to the left of the center of the party, yet we still identify and vote as Dems. Why? Because it still beats the alternative and if we're being honest and realistic, we know there is only one other viable alternative. I would love to see a party to the left of the Democrats exist as a realistic possibility, but institutional change to the electoral system needs to happen before any of that can happen. If "we" leave for a third party, most of us will not follow. We will not win here or there or anywhere. We'll just lose by a bigger margin in a left wing party than we will in a left center coalition.

If this is what you want, spend your energy working for PR or instant runoff voting, that's a system where third parties might be able to thrive, not the status quo.

And all we've got to show for it is a spineless party in dissarray, controlled by corporations, with a pro-war, pro-corporate frontrunner for the '08 Presidential election. Sorry, but I can't buy that meme anymore, it has been proven hollow time and again.

Rather I will work for a party that actually fights, and with the numbers coming over off of the debacle, I think that they're going to be a force to reckon with. Besides, they're offering incentives that most Americans want, and end to war, UHC, restoration of our civil rights, etc. What are the Democrats offering? More of the same ol' same ol'. No thanks friend, been there, done that, have the scars to prove it.

:eyes:

Advocating for a third party is not permitted on the Democratic Underground.