We Broke Iraq. How do we fix it?

Yes I mean the royal WE. Bush did it in OUR name and someone's gotta fix it. OK first thing we have to do is get out. I don't question that. What then? We've blown their infrastructure to pieces. We've killed hundreds of thousands of civilians. If we leave Iraq in total chaos, which it appears we'll have to, how to we make it up to the innocent Iraqi's for what we've done?

...are repeating History over again."

It can't be "fixed". Period.

That will only cause more resentment toward the US. We've got to do something to rebuild the country. Any kind of withdrawal has to have some sort of rebuilding program in it's place

might go a little faster if they weren't interested in blowing each other away.

I don't think you realize the un-fixable nature of Iraq. We fucked up the day we went in.

We were all too chicken to say it, lest it work out, but our suspicions have been confirmed.

It's not necessarily impossible to bring disparate peoples together, but they usually have to kill off all the nuts who hate the other side so much they want to kill themselves.

The best thing we can do is withdraw to the Kurdish areas, because they aren't as bad off, and bring all the Iraqis who've worked with our country with us. That way people around the world will still be willing to do that at future dates.

But the "Iraq" that was, will never exist again.
It's GONE. It was UNIQUE, and cannot be replicated.

And it's way too early for any "rebuilding", since the Iraqis
are just getting their civil war up to speed. Handing -ANY-
faction the billion$ we owe them would NOT provide any
positive results right now.

Sorry, but there really are NO good answers to any of this.

...for his library (http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=2630670). Then, we can auction off his pig farm and the 98,000+ acre ranch he bought in Paraguay. Those ought to bring some money. After that, we should seize the assets of Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rice, Rove, and Gonzales.

That was my position two years ago. But the simple fact of the matter is that unless adults are put in charge of the Executive branch, this shit is just going to continue to get worse. It's probably too late anyway. Bush is fundamentally incapable of fixing this.

If we can't stop the violence now, what makes you think we'll be able to stop it later when it's worse?

..couldn't unexplode the bomb again."

I don't think it'll get done here though.

I also think that people who are very cavalier about what will happen when we leave are just as psychopathic as the people who didn't care what would happen when we arrived.

I actually agree with Colin Powell on this one. We broke it, we own it.

Why should we pay once again? Our tax dollars have already been redistributed to his buds and you suggest now we pay the bill for the second time?

We are still America. We invaded, occupied and fucked up Iraq to the point that Saddam now is looking good. Yes WE did it. You and I didn't vote for him but we didn't work hard enough to get Bush out of office. What happened in Iraq is on all of our shoulders.

Sorry but I'm an American and I take responsibility for what my country has done. I'd like to once again believe I live in a just nation. I'm a liberal.

So I can break into your house and bust the place up and then when you ask me to leave I can tell you to sit down and shut up 'cause having broken your house and your stuff I now own you and your house? And if you physically object to my hanging out, (not fixing anything, in fact I appear to be continuing to bust up stuff) it is acceptable for me to kill you? Oh and it turns out that you have a safe full of gold in the basement which I conveniently also own now. Yeah that is a great theory, one that not even the Pottery Barn subscribes to.

Suppose someone broke into your house and smashed all your crockery with a hammer. Would you accept his offer to repair the damage with his hammer, the only tool he has? I'll bet you'd just want him out of there, and to write you a check to cover the damage plus 10% for the aggravation, no?

I'm not sure we don't have more responsibility than that.

Enough is enough. Let W's buds kick back some of their profits to do the job.

I'd bet the Iraqis wouldn't care one wayor another if we'd just leave and let them fix the damage. They did so in 1992 in about 18 months, after the total destruction of their power grid and elimination of a large percentage of bridges and other transportation infrastructure. (They didn't have as much luck with water treatment, as the US and Britain would not let them import chlorine for purification, supposedly because of dual use for WMD.)

Get Halliburton/KBR/etc out of the picture and show that the money is going to Iraqi's (I don't care what sect they belong to) and I'm fine with that. Heck if we sent Iraqi's a 10th of what we've spent in the last 3 years occupying their country to rebuild it, it might show them that not all Americans are warmongers and agree with the economic oppressors they're used to dealing with.

How about letting a lot of Bush's fortunes go toward paying for what HE broke. That goes double for Cheney. He and his Haliburton have unrealistically profited from all this killing in Iraq.

You want those companies to profit again?

None of the things we tried to do to stop him worked. A new Truman commission might be able to take a lot of it out of Halliburton's hide, though. Also all those private contractors.

need to become a major item in any new billing the U.S. taxpayer's age going to get. They got theirs higher than they ever dreamed possible. They need to leave the U.S. taxpayer alone.

We've paid the bills and sacrificed the troops.

It'd be sweet to nail a bunch of those corporations for war profiteering. All it takes is hearings. Oh wait! We can subpoena now! There's hope!

Not only did they profit but if we'd spent a small percentage of the money we GAVE to Halliburton/KBR for reconstruction by real Iraqis (after all they built one of the earliest civilizations) this whole situation might have been different.

What a fn'g mess.

Let the people living there fix it with their own means, to their own satisfaction. Just leave. Bahgdad has been sacked before, and risen from the ashes!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baghdad

"... the city remained one of the cultural and commercial hubs of the Islamic world until February 10, 1258, when it was sacked by Mongols under Hulagu Khan. The Mongols massacred 800,000 of the city's inhabitants, including the Abbasid Caliph Al-Musta'sim, and destroyed large sections of the city. The canals and dykes forming the city's irrigation system were also destroyed. The sack of Baghdad put an end to the Abbasid Caliphate, a blow from which the Islamic civilization never fully recovered."

Just go!

We fix it by realizing fully that it is beyond our power to fix,
and that as humble servants of existance,
our only duty is to fix our own broken lives,
that through the power of the dance joy and wealth share
with us divine providence.

Iraq can't be fixed. The hatred we have fueled and the destruction we have caused will last decades, if that.

That's the best thing we could do.

We bail now and the Sunni's and Kurds have had it. It's going to take some fancy diplomacy to negotiate a peace between the warring factions. Whether they split the country up or come to an agreement, it's sure not going to happen unless they get someone in there who has no financial stake in the outcome. What we should do is start the phased withdrawl, once we are out of the fight we force negotiations, put the Corps of Engineers on standby and inform the Iraqis that as soon as they stop fighting and start negotiating we'll move in and start fixing the infrastructure. An over simplified solution but at least an idea to work with. Whatever we do there is a lot riding on it. Our standing in the world for years to come could hinge on whether or not we eat the shit sandwich.

step two: help (and facilitate international help) the various parties to reach equilibrium

step three: fund rebuilding projects once the locals stop blowing everything up

They HAVE offered to do so, they are the immediate neighbors and it is in their best interest to have the current instability of their neighbor repaired.

Even after all of the threats our government has made against the two countries they have still extended an olive branch, and we are so arrogant as a nation we won't accept it.

We have poor relations with every oil producing country in the world, and yet China doesn't have that problem. They go to the table to negotiate deals, while the U.S. uses stronghold tactics to dominate the region, which leads to resentment. It has nothing to do with them hating us for our semi-freedom.

The President of Iran stated he offered help to the victims of hurricane Katrina, that was rejected by the U.S. Chavez was also turned down. When you are in a position of being responsible for the lives of others, and dismiss offers of aid to people in dire need because of your own ego, it's an example of "false pride".

We are responsible for Iraq, but it's to far out of hand to handle by ourselves. Our leaders need to work with other countries in the region; it's the only hope we have of stabilizing Iraq.

So far all I hear about Syria and Iran are the same things being spouted by the supporters of the republican agenda. As I feel that any time bushco's lips move it is a lie, I am stuck with little to no real information on these two countries. I do remember that Syria was a contributing member of the first coalition, why were they not demons back then? At one point we are working together then as soon as they say something in disagreement with baghdad-bush they become staunch supporters of the terrorist agenda secretly plotting to separate me from Democracy! It surely seems to me that countries neighboring Iraq can only benefit from a stabilized situation there...why wouldn't they want to help... it is absolutely in their best interest.

And frankly I am surprised and delighted that you haven't been raked over the coals for it.

There are two things that I think should be taken as givens at this point.

1) Iraq is a mess right now, even with about 150,000 American troops there. Troop levels really aren't the issue at this point, because the Iraqi's no longer have any trust in the US leadership and things have gotten bad enough that there is no way to regain that trust.

2) If (when?) we leave, things are going to get exponentially worse. Iraq has no infrastructure in place anymore to prevent the various factions from open warfare. We destroyed and/or dismantled that. The only thing that keeps the strife even remotely in check is our presence there, and our ability to do even that much is obviously severely compromised and continues to get worse.

It seems clear that if we simply "declare victory and leave" there will be a bloodbath. Iran is obviously hoping we will do exactly that, as they stand to inherit most of Iraq if we do. I am as liberal as the day is long but an Iran suddenly doubled in strength with no Iraq as it was under Saddam to hold them in check strikes me as a bad idea. In addition there is likely to be low level warfare in the north between the Turks and the Kurds.

It is interesting to note that virtually every novel of the last 30 years or so which chronicles world war 3 has it starting in some fashion in the Middle East. There's a very good reason for that. That place has been on a low simmer for decades, indeed US foreign policy there has been predicated on the principle of keeping things balanced and stable there insofar as we could do so. That's all out the window now. Allowing Iraq to erupt into civil war (and yes, I know we are already there in a way but it can be tons worse) will cause that simmering pot to become a raging boiling cauldron. I believe that most other Middle Eastern nations would be drawn into the conflict swiftly, and the war would spread throughout the area.

Now, is all this the fault of the Bush cabal? Yes, it is. Can we trust them to fix any of it? No we cannot, and we really need to try to control our laughter at the thought. But here's the important thing: WALKING AWAY FROM THE PROBLEM DOES NOT SOLVE IT. If we do that there is a strong possibility, even a likelihood, that the region erupts into war that may draw in the big guns in Europe and Asia. Millions could die. A nuclear confrontation is possible. Yes I know how Chicken Little that sounds, but the Middle East is full of people who identify themselves more with their religion and ethnicity than their nationality. If the Sunni in Iraq begin to be massacred, who believes that help will not come to them from other Islamic nations? I can easily see Iran, Jordan, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, and Israel getting into the fray.

So what's the solution? I don't know. But I DO know that we need to find one. Simply saying that we should never have invaded (we shouldn't) and leaving has the potential to yield the worst result possible.

Perhaps a multinational force under the command of the UN could replace us. I have my doubts that this is workable but it should be discussed. I know that the US must not be in charge of Iraq any longer. They despise us, rightfully so, and our ability to accomplish anything more than discouraging open total warfare and outright Iranian invasion is nil. We MUST turn it over to someone, and if the Iraqi government can't do it (they can't) than it must be someone else.

So far all the bad things I have heard about Iran come from the mouths of the same shrub supporters who demonize anyone who disagrees with them. So instead of picking and choosing what to believe from those guys I have simplified matters by disbelieving pretty much everything they say. I understand that you are not a part of that group, the fact that you are my fellow DUer would be a pretty good clue there. So help me out here, without bushspeak, what is the real problem with Iran and/or Syria resolving the Iraqi problem? (btw: I rarely contribute here in GD because there is too much fighting and anger, I am looking for honest discussion as opposed to that coal raking you mentioned).

Saudi Arabia and Iran don't like each other very much at all. It would massively increase tension between the two countries.

Yes indeed the Saud family hates and fears Iran. Oh well. Perhaps they should have thought out the implications of backing our stupid invasion to begin with. I am not going to shed a tear when the people of Saudi Arabia finally toss the corrupt Sauds out on their asses.

...upon the stability of Saudi Arabia (which is yet another reason why this war was such a dumbass move.)

And by the way, what do you think would happen if the royal family were overthrown? Do you really want a hardline Islamist state controlling a large percentage of the world's oil?

choose to run their affairs. Iran is run by an Islamic theocracy and they are quite good at extracting and selling oil to anyone willing to buy it. I expect that the more democratic government that will replace the hideous saud despotism, even if it is an Islamic theocracy, will also be quite competent at extracting and selling oil. There will of course be a period of instability as the current regime collapses. We will survive. It is not our oil. It is not our land. They are not our people.

Still trying to figure things out here....If Iran were to assist in resolving the Iraq fiasco, and somehow ended up annexing all of Iraq in the process, this would massively anger Saudi Arabia into doing what? I am creating worse case scenarios of the suggestions I have so far been given. When I compare this to the potentials of "Stay the course", "Cut and run", "Slow withdrawal on a timetable", "Divide the country into smaller parts" or "lets just nuke em all and go home" I am left wondering why getting Iran and Syria to aid or even totally take over fixing Iraq is in any way worse. Everything other than letting Iraq and Syria help entails the further loss of American lives, (except for that "cut and run" thingy the bushwhackers accuse us of favoring). Getting away from that bit of selfishness, all other solutions seem to be fairly desperate and bloody. Letting Iran and Syria show leadership here sounds a lot less bloody in the long run. Seems to me diplomacy can ease those massive tensions between Saudi Arabia and Iran. Diplomacy between us and those we have demonized for so long can do that too. I realize diplomacy will never cure all of the worlds ailments but so far I am seeing this as a way out for America. I can not envision a future where the existing puppet government of Iraq becomes the peaceful model of Democracy that baghdad bush suggests. (Remember Viet Nam?), That said, another government will end up controlling Iraq. Do we want to have friendly or unfriendly relations with this new government? That decision should be made now while we still have some say in things. The road to a friendly relationship with the new Middle East will not come at the end of a gun but from diplomacy. Bottom line here: Our old plan did not work, all new plans seem fairly desperate and bloody, everyone is saying that there are no good plans, Iraq is dieing. Iran and Syria are offering to help, I am still asking why not? I am not looking to challenge anyone to give me a why not...I am just asking for folks to think about it, to try to consider it as one of those options and to try to think of it WITHOUT the filter of years of republican demonizations.

...and give a point-by-point response later. But it's 4AM here and I need to sleep. :)

unfortunately the common folk who dont give a rats ass about religion will suffer the most, just hang this on Bu$h.. Frame him in shame and get out soldiers out of here.

one of Murphies laws states... once you mess something up, any thing done to try to correct it will only mess it up more.

... that everything that is broken can be fixed is demonstrably false.

This is no different, "fixing" it is not even possible but we could at least make it better or stop making it worse.

But I've lost all faith in our military and civilian leaders to do the right thing, even upon the off chance they could figure out what that was. :(

if we just bug out with no restitution or help rebuilding what we've blown up then all we'll have accomplished will be to piss off the entire world.

One thing about it, we'll be paying for Shrubbie's war for a long, long time.