My one beef with the metric system:

I'd love it if we all used the metric system...except for temperature. Here's why:

The comfortable range in Farhenheit is, to me, between 55° and 75°: 20° range. In Celsius, between 12.78° - 23.89°: 11.11° range. (I do not know Celsius that well so I simply converted.)

Farhenheit is not given in fractions and I don't think Celsius is either...at least not in the newspaper, on t.v., on the bank sign, etc., i.e., where it matters to the majority of people (Not talking to you, scientists!)

Therefore, Farhenheit provides almost twice the amount of precision. 20° Celsius is 68° Farhenheit; 21° Celsius is 69.8° Farhenheit.

There is no 69°!!!

Bottom line: I like the broad range provided by Farhenheit which allows for more precision (when rounding to whole numbers). That is my one beef with the metric system. Everything else about it is beautiful. Of course, this problem could be solved by simply stretching Celsius to 200° between freezing and boiling...

Thanks for listening :smoke:

except for the need to alter every other unit of the metric system to match, which would be a hell of a hassle.

It runs both ways, too, of course. 32 degrees C is a lot more workable than 98.6 degrees, right?

Adopt the metric system and instead of stretching it, just use 1/2° as well!

Edit: When reporting the temp...

cause, of course, there's no reason that decimal points can't be used in the metric system (and being that they are also a power of 10, actually make a lot more coherent sense.)

It's just because other than in the sciences, celsius is so rarely used that there's no real need for decimal precision. And after all, most of the time when you're watching the weather, they don't report F temps in decimal, either.

it won't be as good, to me.

though that's the bank's fault--not the metric system's, right? ;-)

And you're right...the problem with the metric system exists only if we agree to display only in whole numbers.

It wasn't pretty, but they did it. The most confusion occurred with things sold by weight.

I'm not sure, but I think the UK has used celsius for reporting weather temps for some time. I never got the hang of that. But they still use Fahrenheit measures when discussing how warm a day is.

And don't get me started about "gas marks" on British stoves. Completely separate again from fahrenheit and celsius!

because even if you break degrees of each unit into tenths, Farenheit is more specific

every other sort of measurement uses the metric scale, so even body temp is not that useful in F.

because almost every scientific unit, and hence, equation, is designed with the metric system in mind. Take a look at some blood test results of yours sometime, for instance. You'll see things like mg/dL rather than any non-metric equivalent.

Part of the reason is that the metric system is designed around water. Volume and mass are exactly equivalent for water (ie, 1 gram of water = 1 mL water) and this just makes nearly everything easier.

All that said, I don't see any particular reason why we have to use the metric system in general--it's used by the professionals who need it here, and they don't have any problem switching between the two.

Even dry ice sounds toasty warm when measured in Ks.

just has absolute zero as zero rather than the freezing temp of water

where 1000° is like a cool breeze.

:rofl: :cry:

Your 'gripe' with the Metric system?!? You're actually angry at a system of measurement?!? Aren't there enough things to be upset about as it is?

Not meant as seriously as it may sound BTW...
:)

There's like, to many of them.

Why don't we just continue to stick our head in the sand and use an outdated system of measurement incompatible with the rest of the world.
It's 13/64" wide.

how the hell would I count? :shrug:

I understand your point, but maybe if we switched over to the metric system years ago, then we wouldn't have slammed a space probe that cost millions of taxpayer dollars into the face of Mars because somebody forgot to convert from our system over to metric when doing calculations for orbiting the planet.

first point I like and noted it up-thread.

The weather guy can just report that it will be a low of 20 1/2° and a high of 25 1/2°.

That is actually more precise than Farhenheit!

for the precision reasons you stated. Example: soft ball stage is about 234-240 F, depending on your recipe. That's only 112.22 - 115.56 C (according to conversion) and therefore harder to get right. I do also use the cold water test due to changes in humidity and accounting for inaccuracies in your thermometer, but still, it's nice to read a more precise thermometer.

digital to a few decimal places though.:)

Again...just more reasons why the changeover would be so costly and such a pain in the ass.

Compare Swiss and English chocolate to Hershey's which tastes worse than dog chocolate you buy in Europe.

It's the quality of your ingredients like chocolate and your recipe. If you use the same recipe with different types of chocolate for fudge you will get different results. "Quick fudges" (at least to me) are all horrible not matter what chocolate you use because they're grainy because of confectioners sugar or overly sweet (often due to sweetened condensed milk). You can't make good fudge with good chocolate and a shitty recipe.

:crazy:

I thought the whole thread was a joke, but you seem to be keeping it up.

"About 234-240 F" - well, that's good and imprecise, so what's your problem? Are you using an analogue thermometer, or a digital one? If the former, you'll have no problem at all. If the latter, then I can see that a decimal place could help you. But that's a problem with your instrument, not the system.

uguu

It was the easiest to learn when Canada switched.

a temperature difference of 1 °C. If you can't, why worry about it?
My own experience is that I can pretty easily tell if my environment changes by 5 °F (~2.8 °C),
but 2 °F (~1.1 °C), not so much.

than that is useless.

After their revolution they had to change everything. Celsius is stupid, most of the people in the world live at an air temperature between 0 and 100 degrees Fahrenheit. It's the perfect scale for humans. Of course for liquid propane it's all the same: -40 degrees is the same in F or C.

So your point is wrong.

The assumption I made before, and admitted, was that the temperature must be displayed in whole numbers.

So toss that...the metric system then becomes more accurate. I don't quite know why I insisted the numbers be only whole numbers...conditioning I guess. I said:



Count by 1/2° and everything is wonderful: The Celsius range doubles to 22.22°.

Then, 20°C is 68°F; 20 1/2°C is 68.9°F; 21° is 69.8°C. Therefore, the ranges consist of the same number of steps with the Celsius range being slightly more precise.

Multiplied out: Every ten 1/2 units of Celsius, Farhenheit has nine 1 units. So in the two-hundred 1/2 units between 0°C and 100°C, Farhenheit has one-hundred and eighty units.)

Ahhh...one of the best reasons to discuss an idea. I have refined it, changed my mind and decided upon a better solution.

Edit: Stupid mistakes...

Just thought I would throw that out there. *grin*

100 basic units (for science and all that).

We all like a nice even 100 right?

Edit: In other words, the sciences love the metric system. My dislike is using it for temperature. Scaling the temperature by 1/2 degrees solves the problem: Everyone uses the easy to use 100 unit system while temperature precision is not only not decreased but increased. :)

I do love the simplicity of the metric system... but temp should be in whole numbers for easy communication.

"oh dear... its going to be a beautiful day... around 25.6"...... :wtf:

MZr7

that they'd say "around 26" - because they know their forecasts aren't accurate to better than one degree Celsius anyway?

using them frenchified numbers.

So, I got that going for me. ;)

"Whew! It must be 75.2°f here."

no longer have to put up with being governed by BushCo.

:hi: from Germany where it is now 1C, with expected high today of 9C. No snow, and warmest November in 60 yrs.

I was too young to remember but the switch to metric happened over here in the early 1970's and now it's very rare to hear anyone reverting back to the old system. The only one that seems to stick around is the weight for newborns - even though the hospital recorded it in kilos, the nurses as well as my older relatives all talked in pounds and ounces...

btw, I was in Germany a few weeks ago and the weather was beautiful! The only time I saw any snow was driving from the Czech Republic to Nuremburg at the beginning of November and there were some small bits of snow on the side of the road...

there is snow in the mountains. Today is was bright sunshine and about 50F. This doesn't feel like December. And EVERYONE is sick here.

It's all in what you get used to.

Right now I'm seeing 10C scrolling on the BBC ticker for the London weather report. My British wife who has gotten used to the F scale after all these years here has no clue that 10C is around 50F.

:shrug:

They decided to use the names of scientists for most of the units -- Joule, Watt, Ampere, Weber, Tesla, Ohm, Newton, Pascal, Torr(icelli), etc. etc.

(Centigrade means 100 steps of course. They dropped that term because it sounded like a bunch of spies. (silly reference to an early Hitchcock film))

than straight forward. I don't know how it is now. I hope they settled on BSA. When I worked in the business we had BSA, Italian, French. Swiss, and the old standby, Whitworth threads. Some of the standards could mix with a minimum of damage, a Class B fit, but the French treads were Class C fit and didn't work with other national standards. Internal diameter of tubes varied, again, the French were the mavericks there too.

Still, I would rather deal with the different Metrics than to try to find a Wald axle set to fit a Wald hub. Replacing an axle nut on a Wald axle could be a test of patience. they couldn't even settle on one standard for their own products. Finding compatible caged bearings was a horror story.

I don't know if Wald is still in the business, but back in the 70's they supplied hubs, bottombrackets, pedals and such parts for department store bicycles. The owner was an odd bird. If a visitor or any other outsider came into the plant. They had to shut down the machines and cover them with tarps.

Wald LLC is still in business.

Sometimes, it is downright dangerous. I recently went to Canada and I guess there were a lot of Americans like me that were there, too. Only problem, they didn't get the word about driving on the left side of the road. I had *so many* cars coming straight at me in my lane. I just honked and tried to wave friendly at them. Sure didn't want them to feel stupid or anything...

The OP was talking about C v. F and all that. Now we're on the left/right road thing?

I reallly really hope. hehe

Besides, it was a joke.

:bounce: :toast: :party:

Okay, it's no 69 degrees Farenheit but what the hell. I like it!

Fahrenheit makes absolutely no sense to me. I think the metric system is superior in every way that it can be superior. Plus, we do use tenths and hundredth of a celsius, both in science and in real life. For example, thermometers checking your temperature will show
"32.5 degrees celsius" if you have a slighty elevated body temp.

Canadian still typically rely on feet and pounds for height and weight, but I've really tried to train myself to know both the metric and imperial.

I don't know and state that in the OP...

It really makes no sense not to have whole numbers. Nobody can really tell the difference of one degree, let alone fractions of a degree.

temperature. Such as if the Celsius scale was labeled 0 to 50. 20 1/2 would be the equivalent of what 21 is now.

The ultimate question that needs to be answered is what is the smallest temperature change that is noticeable by humans?

A temperature system would work well to calibrate itself to whatever that temperature is.

Seriously....do you need to know exactly what temp it is....most people couldn't tell you the difference between 23 degrees and 25...and even if they could (and some most likely do), does it change anything? Obviously, if its 0 you will think..man, I need a jacket. But a difference of 1 degree, or half a degree, isn't going to change anything.

Its just not an issue here. At all.

For every 1 degree C, there are 2 degrees F (roughly).

I agree that it doesn't make that much of a difference. But it does make a difference.

If the weather man says the temp. range is between 20 C and 25 C that is a 9 degree difference in F.

I guess it's what you are used to. My conception of a degree is different because I use F. A five degree difference is not much but a ten degree difference is. However, if my conception of a degree doubles, all is well.

It's really a question of how precise we want to be and how precise we need to be. We could have a system where 1 "degree" is the equivalent of 20 degrees F. I think we both can agree that such a system needs to be refined. We could also have a system where 1 "degree" is the equivalent of .001 degrees F. Again, way off.

Somewhere in the middle is the perfect system. What the perfect system is perhaps should depend upon what temperature change is perceivable by humans.

He usually says, "its going to be 22 or 23 degrees". Like I said, barely perceptable difference. They could easily use percentages or fractions, but its not really helpful.

Lol..honestly, I think your analyzing this waaayyy too much! Celsius works because it is based on water...and it really works well with other metric units, like volume and pressure.

agree.

It won't make much difference because 22C is 71.6F while 23C is 73.4F...I probably can't tell the difference between 71.6 and 73.4.

But then we can ask: When can I tell the difference? 3, 4, 5? Definitely 5 (I think). Also, there is the possibility that we can tell the difference. But then is the difference big enough to change anything? The importance of the difference may increase as you get closer to a phase-change temperature.

Fun questions...

But yes, the switch wouldn't be that bad because the systems are pretty close at 2:1. Plus, they could report in 1/2 degree increments to ease the transition.

Edit: Under two...not over two...

If you have a slightly elevated body temperature and your thermometer says 32.5, it's time to get a new thermometer.

Did you see that episode of "Corner Gas" last season where Hank observes that milk is sold in litres, roads are measured in Km, but people's height and weight are still measured in pounds and in feet & inches? It's so true...

I really love that show. We're really like that in Saskatchewan.

thinking - those poor Americans! All we have to remember is 0 degrees C is freezing and 100 degrees is boiling. Body temp 37C. They have to remember all those weird numbers like 98.6. Heck, I still don't know what freezing is in Farenheit! B-)
Oh and when we talk about comfortable temperatures, we don't use fractions or decimals :) We don't seem to notice a difference between 25 and 25.5.

I'd like to find out what temperature change is noticeable by humans. Anything less as the foundation for a scale is pointless.

Perhaps Fahrenheit is too precise for our needs. After all, what if the system we used had 100 different numbers between 20C and 21C...would be amazingly superfluous.

There's more to it than "can I wear shorts today?" ;)

is not what I am discussing.

The more precise it can be measured for science, the better.:)

Boiling point of water is 212 Fahrenheit.

That's apparently how the scale was created. 180 degrees (half a circle between freezing and boiling) and then he set zero to be the lowest temp he could achieve in the lab exploiting the endothermic properties of dissolving salt in water. TWO arbitrary decisions.

Two arbitrary choices just for one unit of measure. The handbook for shipping agents using all the old measures is an absolute nightmare. Virtually every traded commodity had its own special unit.

The entire metric system is built around one arbitrary distance; a logical decision to use only powers of 10; and the physical characteristics of the one material that can exist in any of the three standards states of matter under anthropocentric conditions.

Another interesting bit of trivia. 1 roman mile is near as damed equal to a dozen, dozen, dozen paces. Or 1000 paces in base 12.

Like .2 of a degree is going to make a difference?

Why would anyone need high accuracy with regards to temperature comfort zone?
In those cases were high accuracy is required tens and hundreds of a degree can be used.

The point is that C jumps every other F degree.

My point is that I like those extra degrees for added precision.

And most people agree that is way colder than sweater weather.

66 is not the same as 67.

It actually is a question of whether or not humans can even feel 1 degree F. If not, the issue is moot.

We've already admited that that standard is vague/innacurate compared with the precision of scientific instruments.
Why base a temperature scale on units of "human detection ability"?

say it is.

A temperature scale to let humans know what temperature it is would work best when based on what smallest temperature difference humans can perceive.

'cause doing conversions between Metric and English blows.

where exactly on this thermometer are your missing temperatures:?


I just use a thermometer with both scales, and over time, its not too hard. :-)

rest of Canada, because I knew it was coming anyway and I wanted to be ahead of the curve.

but you can't feel air temperature differences of less than about 10 degrees F. You can feel much smaller temperature differences in water, because the thermal conductivity is so much higher. But even then, you're not sensitive to less than about a degree or two C.

...before introducing the metric system.

My beef is considerably less prosaic. 15 cm always sounds like boasting.

Hahahaha...
Well, so at least the men should prefer the metric system ;).