Would you forgive a person who does you harm?

Just a poll...

almost certainly.

It could be difficult, depending on what they did to me. But it's the only way to move forward.

then in the future... I feed them with my aunt would call a "long handled spoon"

Irreparable harm isn't forgivable.

I can't forget those who did me harm. I prefer to avoid them. I don't need the reminders. And those are incidents I would not want others to bestow onto even them.

I just wish more people would be nice in the first place. Then none of these questions would have to be asked or the people hurt or killed, for that matter.

Wikipedia has a good, if long, definition:


Forget, on the other hand:

I would have difficulty forgiving and, depending on the situation I am less inclined to be forgiving.

There are lines. If more people understand that crossing a line is a no-no, then more people won't cross them.

anger against," which is hardly the same thing as saying "whatever you did is forgotten." Which is what I think most people think forgiveness is. THere are some I can give up anger against, but not many...

they apologized and said they were sorry but forget...no. I won't hold something against some who is sorry but I will remember what they did so that I'm not hurt or taken in again.

...but on the apology and atonement. Forgiveness is a fine ideal, but I might find it hard to practice.

and whether said harm was intentional.

and whether the harmer had repented and sought said forgiveness.

Words on their own is the calling card of a politician or an anarchist.

Murder's OK if you don't like the victim.

what if they started throwing eggs at me while I was driving down the road?

Or vice-versa?

I have my reasons for my vitriol. And until people start asking "why", the unasked question remains silently answered. And that one isn't about me.


This response also incontrovertibly makes me a hypocrite... but you'll have to think on that one for a while.

Perhaps I read too quickly, but I don't understand what you're trying to say.

but the incident that started it all was a very personal one for me.

Not unlike the post about the 14 year old whippin' eggs into oncoming traffic, of which there was only one intended outcome: Causing harm for his own amusement.

The difference was, I never killed the people who did their deeds against me that (if left untreated) would have left me blind, dead, or worse (oh, it wasn't just one rogue incident...). I stayed out of my way.

People always say "if you leave them alone, they'll go away". Those who kept onto me told their buddies (even when I was there) "Beat him up, he doesn't fight back."

So if you leave them alone, they don't always go away.

So I went away. I think I went far enough; they haven't followed. If they had, I'd probably be dead and would have been dead for years now.

And no doubt most of those punks are in jail or dead. Either way, they're off the streets. That's consolation enough for me; I've got the rest of my life to live. I'll always be an emotional cripple, but I am a survivor. And that's more than what any number of people around here can say. But I can relate to the others who are survivors, and they I genuinely feel sorry for.

I prefer feeling sorry for victims. Not instigators.

:rofl:

"What with those things they were aiming for being cars and all, lives could have been hurt - or ended.

Sorry to side with vigilante justice here, but I'd side with the SUV owner. Pity he couldn't veer when getting hit and run the lil' fucker over. That seems more apropos... "


Where did I say I would run them over? Though I'll admit hoping the driver would have is probably just as bad.

Then again, so is the intent to cause a crash that would harm many, damage a lot, destroy a lot, and probably kill a lot too. It seems people want to defend that little jackanapes. And I'm holding back big-time here. Apparently you think it's acceptable for a punk to throw eggs into moving traffic.

I don't.

There. That's the context. Funny how you didn't mention that...


And what next, I say something about getting rid of the 911 hijackers before they had a chance to really cause problems and everybody would be defending them??? (You see, it works both ways...) At what point is it acceptable and at what point isn't it? And when should the perp have been taken?

In the criminal law, there are five levels of mens rea (criminal intent): Purposely, Knowingly, Recklessly, Negligently, and Strictly, ordered from most culpable to least. If the teen were to have caused an accident and killed someone, from the evidence it appears that the highest level of intent that could be demonstrated would be Recklessly - a gross violation of reasonable conduct.

There's a difference between saying that the murderer (and yes, if the facts are as alleged, the SUV driver is a murderer) should not have murdered the kid, and saying that what the kid was doing was right. He was committing a crime, but if he were convicted of that crime, there is no possible way he would have been sentenced to death. So, as I said below, we do not have a case of "vigilante justice" here - we have a case of vigilante revenge.

The SUV driver is a murderer. And he'll pay for the crime.

But what the kid had done, and especially if he had hit a feeble or obtuse driver, could have EASILY caused far more damage.

And I sure as hell will not give that brat an ounce of sympathy. You don't risk peoples' lives like that. It was no accident, and he was doing it to get his jollies.

The SUV driver was wrong. But his main crime here was reacting to a hostile situation. Not the right way, but what if he did nothing and as such the twerp would continue lobbing eggs at cars?

But if the snotty little frat brat wasn't such a pile of sleaze, NOTHING WOULD HAVE HAPPENED.

Having been a victim of such "amusing pranks" myself, some more people around here should at least try to understand my anger towards ANYBODY who pulls shit like that.

I know better not to kill.

But some out there will. And the little prat should have realized that his stunt was egging on the wrong person - pardon the pun.

The entire situation is hardly win-win... but what the hell happened that allows kids to do stuff like that? What happened to discipline? The SUV driver was waaay too extremist, but the kid wouldn't have gotten anything.

Who knows, maybe karma knew something we didn't. He won't be attempting to incite auto accidents anymore and his killer won't be killing anymore. Two creeps off the streets.

The SUV driver's crime wasn't "reacting to a hostile situation." The crime was a massive escalation of force leading to murder.

Maxwell Smart tripping and smashing an expensive technological device is accidental recklessness.

Throwing eggs to cause traffic accidents and what can come about by them may be reckless, but it's not unintentional and the word "reckless" santizes what the original miscreant did.

I'll admit I was wrong in my choice of words describing the SUV driver's actions. But, and I think it was in post 45, I adumbrated as to why I have no time or compassion for vermin like the egg whipper.

As I clearly stated, I was discussing his moral culpability in legal terms, because I find them elucidative in cases such as these. He unquestionably had some moral culpability, but in no way did he deserve to die.

As a victim of bullies throughout my childhood, I can understand where you're coming from. I just can't feel that much animus for someone that was wronged, even if he was committing a lesser wrong himself.

I didn't add your "CONTEXT" because I thought it would be rude to republish your nasty, decidedly unprogressive words.

And I wouldn't mention it at all, save for your odd poll given your being a fan of vigilante justice.

That's why I'm a hypocrite. It was re: that response as to why I made this post. I wanted to see how others fared.

A lot of good responses.

But I have little respect or capacity for forgiveness for those who wantonly do harm. Unless they reeeeeeeeeally work to change themselves, which is rare.

Indeed, something not dissimilar happened to me by such a creep. That helped lend me to my reaction of "I wish the bastard got ran over" or whatever.

I'm not out there personally being a vigilante. I'd sooner ignore the fuckers and karma will get back at them. I had no qualms siding with the SUV owner who felt he had to do something. It was wrong and he will get punished too.

But the bottom line is, what the fuck happened to society that would let kids throw eggs into oncoming traffic (and it sure as hell was no accidental flinging!) and for people to actually do what that driver did?

And, it would have been karmic if the punk got ran over. Or do I mean poetic justice? Whatever. The kid's gone and won't cause any trouble ever again. It could have been worse. And it wasn't.

A eye for a eye results in endless conflicts. It is right to forgive, helps to clear your spirit. lot more to be said about this.

In the sense of not making myself crazy, but it's hard to "forgive" in the sense of going back to anything remotely resembling the previous relationship when the other party hasn't a clue as to how much they've done nor any inclination to try to atone.

Needless to say, I picked "Depends on the crime but I'm more inclined to forgive a miscreant who hasn't done something like what someone once did to me."

I was married to a man who intentionally physically and emotionally hurt me on several occasions.

I finally got wise and stopped forgiving him and got away.

Now, I'm working on forgiving myself for putting up with that crap for so long........

I hope you do forgive yourself. And I hope all the damage heals. :hug:

I'm so sorry you had to put up with that slimesucker. Karma will give him what's due. Hopefully sooner, and hopefully he'll learn from it if he's lucky enough to be forgiven by karma.

There is no excuse for deliberate harm. Not ever. It is uncivilized to hit another person, such as your ex did to you.

What happens to those who do the hitting is their problem. I'm not keen on vigilante justice, but I'm more inclined to side with the vigilante than I am the &*((&# who feels the need to be a bastard and hurt others' lives for personal gain.

Revenge, sure, but there's a substantive difference.

His context was that rich republicans should feel the effects of the actions they are bestowing onto everybody else.

Maybe if that punk brat got a taste of his own twisted medicine things would be different.

Karma had other plans. And for personal reasons I haven't any gripes against what Karma had in mind, it seems.

In short, vigilante justice inevitably has a revenge slant to it. Not always a strong motive. But not always a weak one either. Human emotions are inevitable and inevitably related.

The difference is, why am I avoiding those who did bad things unto me (one of which is no different than the egg throwing incident onto drivers)? Fear. Fear they'll do it again, or worse. I just want to live a structured, normal life and I have no tolerance for people who wilfully hurt others or want to.

Apparently some folks around here like people who throw eggs onto oncoming vehicles in an attempt to cause a sick accident.

I don't.

The type of vigilanteism you espouse invariably leads to "sentences" that far outweigh the crime. Pointing that out is not endorsing the crime.

It's your type of "logic" that leads to never-ending "tough on crime" ridiculousness.

And I am fettered by memories of my past.

But I will ask; how do we deal with these 'lesser' crimes so that people don't do them?

One act leads to another, and with human nature what could result in flight might result in a fight instead.

And our society loves to point fingers at symptoms and claim no problem exist.




I'm tired of the "boys will be boys" nonsense.

Europe doesn't have this sort of problem. Certainly not to the humongous extent we've got it at.

They don't say "boys will be boys" either.

Perhaps the ultimate problem is the bully mentality. How to deal with bullies so they do not cause situations that led Mr SUV driver to kill in abject hostility?

I'm only human.

As I look back on my life, I have forgiven some.

But there are many I cannot.

I'm sorry but I cannot.

I'm still recovering from what happened to me.

And some of those incidents are 20 years old.

Maybe I'm a wimp for letting the bad memories and incidents stick.

Or maybe those bad things were things people don't understand.

Or both.

And as Michael Moore postulated, sometimes people have to experience anothers' hurt before progress can be made. I can only look into actions of perps for only so long before seeing how the victim is hurt and how long it will take them to recover.

head, rapes her, has me tied up and forced to watch.

It's forgetting that's impossible.

I have forgiven my mother for embezzling tens of thousands of dollars against me. I am in the middle of a law suit to get what is left of my money but I hold no grudge. My only hope for her is that she will come to see how materialism has affected her life. I hope she will come to terms with what it has done to her and that there is some way she will be able to fill the void she must have. She always tries to prove her self worth through parties and possessions so there must be something deeply missing from her life.

I have forgiven the person who raped me. They already had enough hold over me without me giving them power the rest of their life.

And biggest of all, I have forgiven my sister-in-law. She did some things (out of revenge) that put my husband and I in danger of possibly having our children taken away from us. She lied in retaliation because she was so hurt at the lengths we went to to prove her children were being abused. We canvassed her neighborhood and found witnesses that were friends of the boys as well as a teacher. We were on solid ground. We were trying to do what was right for our nephews but she was only trying to get back at us. I have forgiven her and actually helped her out when she got in a very bad (40% chance of survival) car accident.

Forgiving does not mean that I let these people do what they did again. I would love to facilitate a relationship between my mom and her grandchildren if one day she realizes what life is about. Life is living in harmony with the rest of the planet. When you do anything, good or bad, it has ripple effects that are not easily viewed with the naked eye. Only when we realize that our relationships do not end directly with the one person we are opposed to, will we begin to see how we should live our life. When you hurt one person you hurt those around them and it spreads to others as well. Why would you want to hurt someone you do not even know? What type of a person must you be if you hurt and lash out at others with no cares as to who else you may effect?

Going through this spiritual journey has been a wonderful thing. A huge weight has lifted off my shoulders where I would have harbored resentment and tried to get back at those who I perceived as having harmed me. It is a wonderful way to live your life.

of revenge or it will consume you. You have enough to deal with in dealing with the hurt itself without taking on hate and revenge. Forgiveness ultimately benefits the one who forgives.

The trouble is, forgetting isn't quite so easy and there are few lotions that make scars disappear.

I've moved on in my life the best I can and I have no desire for revenge. Revenge is usually caused by knee-jerk reacting anyway, and in knee-jerk reactions I've learned to step aside and get out of the way. (though for certain ruffians I will call 911. The vermin don't need to gratify themselves on the streets.)

But each new story of some punk being vile in turn only makes me feel enraged that people do little or nothing to ensure a stable, civilized future. It brings up too many memories.

Stop the hate.

"You have to stop trying to have a better past."

Holding a grudge makes you mean and self-centered and prevents you from moving forward.

The perpetrator is responsible for the wrong, but you're responsible for how you handle it.