Impeachment - my (possibly) changing position -

I was against impeachment becaue of the impracticality of doing it in two years vs so many things that had to be done immediately to save the country and knowing that we had so many brand new people in the House of Representatives where it all starts. I didn't see how Dems could start and maintain an impeachment along with all the work needed to correct our direction. I also thought he was so obviously guilty that impeachment wasn't even needed to prove guilt.

However, I'm listening to the interviews with de la Vega about her book "The United States V Bush" in which she lays out a pretend grand jury case for impeachment. It sounds excellent. I get the impression that it is fact based and to the point.

I believe if she and other lawyers lay out the case so that the most likely target of law can be pinpointed and wildly random and time consuming investigations can be eliminated - I can support the idea of doing it.

He was mostly their puppet, but he needs to take the rap. And we need to end the political appointments and phony elections of the Bush dynasty.

I would rather Cheney be targeted, but I'm open to the best way to stop them. I don't think anything will stop Norquist and all the younger Abramoffs, DeLays, Reeds, Roves, and Federalist Society young ones. Pursuing Nixon to the point of resignation didn't help. We have had these people since the JFK assassination and all their children will probably carry on. We need all the ammunition possible to contain them.

Edited to add ...
Most importantly, we can't forget that Cheney and PNAC would not have risen to their pinnacle if not for the barons, ceo's, Boards of Directors, stockholders, foundations leaders, military, and medis who lifted them up. They will be willing to do it again for the next wave of up and coming tricksters.

The overriding purpose of their existence is the private ownership of our souls and backs.

You're very correct about the time element. Those of us blowing the impeachment trumpet need to be very, very aware of the issue. If it is to be done, it really must be completed within 2007. To extend into the 2008 campaign season would certainly be a very bad thing.

First, there is *zero* chance that Bush/Cheney (either or both) can be impeached, tried in the Senate, and removed in this time frame. We must all acknowledge that. However, that doesn't mean that we should not start the process.

We also know from the Nixon case that starting the impeachment process needs to result in neither impeachment nor trial in the Senate for it to succeed. Nixon resigned under intense pressure from the people. This should be our aim.

In order to accomplish this, we need investigations, a special prosecutor, and every other tool at our disposal to bring the truth about ChimpCo to the light of day. Only that way will public opinion about removing this administration turn the corner.

No! I am not talking about the 51% wanting Chimp impeached now. That isn't enough. The vast majority of those 51% are saying, "Impeach if crimes were committed". It's those people, and many others who we have to convince that putting the country through another Watergate is in the best interest of our country.

Many of us are already convinced, but we have to turn this corner before it can happen.

"First, there is *zero* chance that Bush/Cheney (either or both) can be impeached, tried in the Senate, and removed in this time frame. We must all acknowledge that. However, that doesn't mean that we should not start the process."

... I disagree with.

I'd like to know how you've come to this.

BB tmrw.

He can be impeached and tried on one, easily provable, easily testified to thing. Same for Cheney. It is not necessary for them to try him for every crime, just one. Sure they'll drag out the witnesses for the defense, but time doesn't need to be a big factor.

Once you start picking at it, you're gonna get it all off. For that reason it's difficult to stop at one transgression. Plus, the House will want more than one to make sure that it sticks. On top of that, the people will find it hard to back it if there's just a single article of impeachment. And trust me on this, if the people are not behind it, it ain't gonna happen, nor should it.

BTW, they are *not* behind it now. Not even close.

He deserved to be hounded, and he was.

Take a look at the Clinton impeachment. As we all know, Clinton, while impeached, was not convicted. Yet, look at the harm it did to the democratic "brand". Gad, I wish I had a nickel for every time some repuke asshole has dismissed anything Clinton says with, "Well, who cares, he was IMPEACHED."

Not to say that Clinton isn't melding very nicely into the role of elder statesman. I, for one, see him as completely vindicated. But others still get away with discrediting him--and even his former staff--with the "I" word.

So, regardless of how far along the road to impeachment we get, any move towards impeachment (hearings, investigations, etc.) would, IMO, be very helpful in waking the public up to just how horribly toxic Bush/Cheney and the repukes really are. Not to mention Bush/Cheney's horrible neocon puppetmasters.

In fact, Rep. McKinney has already filed articles in the House just today. All that is required is a majority vote in favor. Nothing else.

But as to your specifics about Ms. de la Vega, her case as written could certainly be adopted to support a vote in favor of the McKinney articles -- or a new set. But even that case, about the "run up to the war," adds unnecessary complexity.

The regime has already admitted to the impeachable offenses of violating the Geneva Article 3 protections (both a war crime and a violation US CODE Title 18, Sec. 2441) and illegal spying in violation of the FISA Act of 1978.

They simply "defend" these action (rhetorically) as lawful and not impeachable. On these issues there really is nothing to investigate or discuss. They need only be brought to a vote.

Since the purpose of impeachment is to defend the nation against ongoing and/or imminent damage by an out of control chief (and vice chief) executive, there is no need for the charges to be comprehensive. Other matters (like fraudulently Terrorizing the American People) can be dealt with through regular criminal and war crime prosecuton, after the capacity to do further damage has been removed.

Should bush and cheney choose not to resign in sequence for the good of the nation, the entire proces of removal could be done in a matter of days. A "resignation process" that includes congressional approval for a new vice president, primed to ascend to president, would also be as quick as the Gates confirmation (done in days).

So there's really no complexity to it. And no real time impediment.

All that is required is the political will. To put the nation's interest before one's personal and/or party interest.

Only Impeachment can be such a panacea.

--

:kick:

Let us hope there is still some courage remaining in America....

I hope it's handled with care. There are so many hurdles.

Some of the very people to bring the impeachment to the floor are tainted with their authorization votes for war and the Patriot Act.

Obstruction. I'd like to hear speculation about how long Republicans could obstruct it with mini-legal cases on the side - such as fighting appearances of witnesses by claiming national security (their favorite excuse for everything). What are the chances that Republicans could play with time by raising objections up to the Federal or Supreme Court level to obstruct progress?

Even if they commit another crime in obstructing the impeachment, they don't seem to care (though I do remember that firing Archibald Cox was one crime of law that they didn't get away with in the past).

Even if they commit another near offense they can still politicize it with a public that doesn't understand it all. (I'm an example.)

Clarity. Timing. Playing games with the nation.

I now realize that I was willing to let whatever happened play out - I'm now becoming very interested.

I had been opposed to impeachment for practical reasons, but now feel that the potential damage that BushCo could inflict on the nation and the planet during the next two years is so horrifying as to require that we at least tie his ass up with investigations and hearings . . . and get the truth out to the American people ASAP . . . because only the truth will set them/us free . . .