When will our military have it's 'Hey--wait a damn minute' moment?

Or has that happened already and they're just not telling us? I know it's hard for a soldier to criticize his or her superiors, especially the commander in chief, dick cheney.

Certain big shot generals have put their asses on the line lately by daring to suggest that things might be done differently in Iraq, and any critics, even patriotic soldiers, are insulted and swift boated and banished from the white house party lists.

Will this magical moment ever really happen? Wouldn't that be the end of it? bush keeps harping about giving the troops the tools they need to win a big victory in Iraq, and he visits them at Walter Reed and he exploits them in photo ops and hugs grieving mothers but deep down, he doesn't give a shit about a single person other than himself.

I fantasize about hallucinogenic shit like this all the time. The fighting men and women, laying down their arms en masse and saying, 'hey, wait just a damn minute here, I am not going to hell for these assholes, fuck them'. The very teeth of bush and cheney's machinery, saying fuck this, you want war, YOU wage it, I'm goin' home, or to prison, fuck you either way.

sort of like the few loose rocks that fall just before the avalanche. You've seen it in the Iraq Veterans Against the Ware, the letter signed by 1000 soldiers (I think mostly enlisted men), and now criticism from generals.

There will be NO challenge to Bush from the military. Christian extremists totally dominate the Armed forces under the guise of "Force Ministries"

http://www.forceministries.com/

This is the organization that psychopaths such as Gen Pace belong to--the same General Pace who said that Rumsfeld was the most devout Christian he ever encountered, with the sole exception of President Peter Pan...

As long as the order is legal, he is duty bound to carry it out, even if the order is radically unpopular. The fear of being known as an unpatriotic soldier by one's peers makes it even harder to disobey orders. It goes further than that because employers outside the military often look at your service record, and what you did will show up again and again for the rest of your working days.

I was an infantry soldier for ten years and I think soldiers love to complain about everything and any soldier that kisses the commander's ass is the one looked down upon. I really never saw any fear of "being known as an unpatriotic soldier." Soldiers in my unit took pride in questioning why we were going on particular missions and I didn't mind them asking. This is an extremely tough position for career soldiers. Most of the combat troops realize it is an unwinnable quagmire but, like you said, they have to follow the orders. If I was still in, I would just have to tell my soldiers that "we're all in this mess together" and not even try any rah rah "let's go kill the terrorists" schtick.

The soldiers on the ground (at least the ones that get shot at) already know this is a bullshit unwinnable war. Liberals and infantry soldiers were the first ones to realize this.

The oath is to protect and defend the Constitution, and for the enlisted guys to obey the orders of the officers appointed over them and the President of the United States. There is no "unless the President's a moron" or "unless it's dangerous" clause.

"I, (state your name), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States, and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."

All soldiers swear to "bear true faith and allegiance" the the US Constitution, you'll notice that they do not swear allegiance to the president or to the officers appointed above them.

Therefore the allegiance is to the Document and the United States of America, why is it that people keep forgetting this most important part of the oath? And as you will note the swearing of allegiance
is before obeying the orders of the president.

The first duty of all military personnel is to defend the Constitution, not to obey the orders of the president. Perhaps one day those wearing the uniform will finally realize that by defending and supporting that document, they also defend the United States.

Just a few idiots at the top - with the exception of Gen. Shinseki.

The navy's been shrunk to a size smaller than prior to the First World War and the Air Force is being run into the ground.

The US taxpayer has to start complaining about spending millions to train people to fly planes and operate submarines to see them given 3 days of firearms training at Ft. Bragg and being sent to Iraq.

Mine was at Fort Jackson. And then we got three days of more intensive convoy training in Kuwait. I was 30 pounds overweight when I mobilized, and MAN did stomping around in body armor make my ankles swell up.

It's also not the best 'bang for our buck' on defense spending. It ain't cheap to train those folks.

The Virginian Pilot yesterday had an article about aviators being tempted with $10K to go "from blue to green." Imagine coaxing aviators to make the switch after all we pay to train them?

I got to fire a pistol and shotgun once a year, whether I needed to or not... Surely that was enough training? :)

Yeah, your right scary thought, and really not a good use of training dollars.

Extending that logic, considering the vast amounts of money spent on even basic infantry training, wasting these lives in Iraq on a useless war is also not the best bang for the buck... :/

Raiding one arm of the military to support another? Can they do that legally?

They don't decide which orders to obey, nor should they. It's incumbent upon the people to have their "Hey--wait a damn minute" moment and force the President to change his policies, not the military.

I can't believe how many people are hoping for a military coup. Talk about out of the frying pan and into the fire....

But it'd be nice to see a general attitude thrown back in bush's face. Call it a resignation.

I just want the military to abide by their oath:

"I, (state your name), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States, and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."

By allowing the passing of the Patriot Act, they have failed to support and defend the Constitution, and have shown that their allegiance is to the president and not the United States of America!

I just want them to live up to what they swore to do, nothing more, nothing less!!!!

scenes, and other media outlets that show footage, at least the films indicate they are just "doing their job". Like any other worker bee who gets up and goes into 9-5. Follow orders.

Isn't that actually what most of our children and adult populace have been trained to do?
By a variety of methods. It begins very young, as soon as a young person enters "society" and authority for his behavior is given over to someone other than his parents. He learns to obey orders. Parents reinforce this. They were trained to obey orders.

There is the tyranny of politicians and creation of economic scarcity. Here's a thread you may not have seen > http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=3029096&mesg_id=3029096
The economic (ha) policies of the outlaws is literally destroying families.

Some of them may view it as, at least I've got a "job". Someone else is telling me what to do. Sure they're going to grouse about it. That's the American Way. Does everyone in your office just LOVE being there? If they do, you're fortunate.

Plus the fact, who is going to cover their rears as they exit en mass? Air support? They are trapped. They have been trapped since the moment they stepped foot into the country. Their only escape is the voice of We the People and Constitutionally bound elected officials. Let's start with Congress. Some has to take action to get them the hell out. A few are in secure areas. The people are keeping the peace.

Just random thoughts.

night started out saying the minister of his church has been preaching Republican doctrine. He wrote the minister a letter of complaint, the minister wrote back, saying he hadn't realized it "sounded that way". The ex-Marine said he just wasn't going back to that church. He went on to say the USA has never in it's history started a pre-emptive war such as this, and he said "I just don't know how we can get out of it. There's no way." We had a big discussion about it. I was amazed. This was a straight-up eagle scout, Korean war fighter pilot. Near the end of his life. ON edit: So I conclude there must be a lot of dissent out there.

They all follow the same general pattern of "Why don't more military members stop this?"

Folks it is not going to happen. And to expect the military to reign in the corrupt and evil Government is the height of cowardice.

If people want this stopped organize a mass anti-tax resistance group and stop giving in with-holding money or filling returns.