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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 12:42 PM
Original message
"Saddam Gassed The Kurds"...some food for thought.
A War Crime or an Act of War?
By STEPHEN C. PELLETIERE
The New York Times

January 31, 2003

ECHANICSBURG, Pa. - It was no surprise that President Bush, lacking smoking-gun evidence of Iraq's weapons programs, used his State of the Union address to re-emphasize the moral case for an invasion: "The dictator who is assembling the world's most dangerous weapons has already used them on whole villages, leaving thousands of his own citizens dead, blind or disfigured."

The accusation that Iraq has used chemical weapons against its citizens is a familiar part of the debate. The piece of hard evidence most frequently brought up concerns the gassing of Iraqi Kurds at the town of Halabja in March 1988, near the end of the eight-year Iran-Iraq war. President Bush himself has cited Iraq's "gassing its own people," specifically at Halabja, as a reason to topple Saddam Hussein.

But the truth is, all we know for certain is that Kurds were bombarded with poison gas that day at Halabja. We cannot say with any certainty that Iraqi chemical weapons killed the Kurds. This is not the only distortion in the Halabja story.

I am in a position to know because, as the Central Intelligence Agency's senior political analyst on Iraq during the Iran-Iraq war, and as a professor at the Army War College from 1988 to 2000, I was privy to much of the classified material that flowed through Washington having to do with the Persian Gulf. In addition, I headed a 1991 Army investigation into how the Iraqis would fight a war against the United States; the classified version of the report went into great detail on the Halabja affair.

This much about the gassing at Halabja we undoubtedly know: it came about in the course of a battle between Iraqis and Iranians. Iraq used chemical weapons to try to kill Iranians who had seized the town, which is in northern Iraq not far from the Iranian border. The Kurdish civilians who died had the misfortune to be caught up in that exchange. But they were not Iraq's main target.

And the story gets murkier: immediately after the battle the United States Defense Intelligence Agency investigated and produced a classified report, which it circulated within the intelligence community on a need-to-know basis. That study asserted that it was Iranian gas that killed the Kurds, not Iraqi gas.

The agency did find that each side used gas against the other in the battle around Halabja. The condition of the dead Kurds' bodies, however, indicated they had been killed with a blood agent - that is, a cyanide-based gas - which Iran was known to use. The Iraqis, who are thought to have used mustard gas in the battle, are not known to have possessed blood agents at the time.

More: http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0131-08.htm

Link to original: http://www.nytimes.com/2003/01/31/opinion/31PELL.html

=====

Reagan Aided Iraq in War Despite Use of Gas
By Patrick E. Tyler
New York Times | International

Sunday, 18 August, 2002

WASHINGTON, Aug. 17 -- A covert American program during the Reagan administration provided Iraq with critical battle planning assistance at a time when American intelligence agencies knew that Iraqi commanders would employ chemical weapons in waging the decisive battles of the Iran-Iraq war, according to senior military officers with direct knowledge of the program.

Those officers, most of whom agreed to speak on the condition that they not be identified, spoke in response to a reporter's questions about the nature of gas warfare on both sides of the conflict between Iran and Iraq from 1981 to 1988. Iraq's use of gas in that conflict is repeatedly cited by President Bush and, this week, by his national security adviser, Condoleezza Rice, as justification for "regime change" in Iraq.

The covert program was carried out at a time when President Reagan's top aides, including Secretary of State George P. Shultz, Defense Secretary Frank C. Carlucci and Gen. Colin L. Powell, then the national security adviser, were publicly condemning Iraq for its use of poison gas, especially after Iraq attacked Kurds in Halabja in March 1988.

(snip)

Though senior officials of the Reagan administration publicly condemned Iraq's employment of mustard gas, sarin, VX and other poisonous agents, the American military officers said President Reagan, Vice President George Bush and senior national security aides never withdrew their support for the highly classified program in which more than 60 officers of the Defense Intelligence Agency were secretly providing detailed information on Iranian deployments, tactical planning for battles, plans for airstrikes and bomb-damage assessments for Iraq.

Iraq shared its battle plans with the Americans, without admitting the use of chemical weapons, the military officers said. But Iraq's use of chemical weapons, already established at that point, became more evident in the war's final phase.

(snip)

In early 1988, after the Iraqi Army, with American planning assistance, retook the Fao Peninsula in an attack that reopened Iraq's access to the Persian Gulf, a defense intelligence officer, Lt. Col. Rick Francona, now retired, was sent to tour the battlefield with Iraqi officers, the American military officers said.

He reported that Iraq had used chemical weapons to cinch its victory, one former D.I.A. official said. Colonel Francona saw zones marked off for chemical contamination, and containers for the drug atropine scattered around, indicating that Iraqi soldiers had taken injections to protect themselves from the effects of gas that might blow back over their positions. (Colonel Francona could not be reached for comment.)

C.I.A. officials supported the program to assist Iraq, though they were not involved. Separately, the C.I.A. provided Iraq with satellite photography of the war front.

More: http://www.truthout.org/docs_02/08.19B.reagan.iraq.htm

Original link: http://www.nytimes.com/2002/08/18/international/middleeast/18CHEM.html

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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 12:44 PM
Response to Original message
1. Thank you, Mr. Pitt.
We should not take anything the Bush & Cheneyites say on face value.
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King Coal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 01:22 PM
Response to Reply #1
15. Thank you, H20 Man.
For recommending Fiasco, that is. What a read! I'm going back to it, right now.
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 12:45 PM
Response to Original message
2. Note the dates on those articles
2002 and 2003.

This isn't some thundering revelation. It's been out there for years and years.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. Yep and widely available.
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mod mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. That info is soooo early 2000's.
Thanks for the articles.
:patriot:
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 12:46 PM
Response to Original message
3. Thanks, Will. The work of keeping facts straight is appreciated. n/t
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malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 12:48 PM
Response to Original message
5. Thanks
The world needs these reminders.
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MH1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 12:52 PM
Response to Original message
7. Also, that is not the "crime" that Hussein was tried and executed for. n/t
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CatWoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #7
24. I kept bringing that up over and over last night
and the jackass excuses offered were just plain bullshit. and nauseating.

Can't let facts get in the way of a little bloodlust, can we?
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Lars39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 03:19 PM
Response to Reply #24
26. At least
you weren't compared to a Holocaust denier.
That thread should have been locked right out of the gate.
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CatWoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. I had to hide those threads
Edited on Sat Dec-30-06 03:24 PM by CatWoman
as I surely would have been banned if I kept engaging with those dumb fucks.
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Lars39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 03:23 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. You gave it a good go, CatWoman.
:thumbsup:
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lostnotforgotten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-31-06 11:20 AM
Response to Reply #24
44. In The Eyes Of The Media Saddam Was Hanged For Gassing The Kurds
Because as Will points out that is one of the excuses used by the BFEE to sell the war to America.

If it ain't on TV it does not exist in America.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 12:52 PM
Response to Original message
8. i am glad to see you bring this up. this has been sittin with me for a while
hearing the absolute acceptance that it was iraq when i had researched a while ago that there was a question bothers me. not a fan of saddam, i still want reality, not a made up story for propaganda use to create a bad guy. i am glad this got on front page of du. the beginning of bush push to go after iraq i too assumed it was iraq without question who gassed the kurds. some very bright people informed me that was not the case and directed me to the information. i appreciated that. i do not like buying into propaganda and i do not think the question of who gassed the kurds has been adaquitly answered to point the finger.
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wildbilln864 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 12:53 PM
Response to Original message
9. Kicked...
and reccomended!
:hi:
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Uncle Joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 12:54 PM
Response to Original message
10. Thanks for the post WilliamPitt
Kicked and recommended
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 01:05 PM
Response to Original message
11. Please see my post "Bush = Death" for a discussion of positive imaging.
We need to crowd out this Hangman image with our own life-giving and loving imagery. Truly. These Dark Lords are playing mind-games. And there are ways to resist. THEY want a year of more Death and Darkness. What do YOU want? What have YOU seen, what do YOU know, of human goodness and hope, and of the rebirth of American democracy? Form it in your mind. Hold that image fast. Push back!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x3034424

And thank you, Will, for this informative post. Your writing/research always has great force and clarity--and timeliness. We need to not only see the truth and the facts, we also need to counter the IMAGES of the Death Mode that the Bush Junta has gotten us into, and which they are trying to further embed in our souls with Saddam's hanging. My post is about countering the depressive impact of their dreadful actions and newsstream manipulations. Many people are disheartened this morning, facing the New Year with a hanging as its chief symbol--a year that, due to the Democratic election victories and other events, we were looking forward to, as a time of renewal. We need to fight back, in our souls--as well as in our intellects.
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 01:11 PM
Response to Original message
12. I am not going to get into the business of defending Saddam Hussein to ignorant people
Edited on Sat Dec-30-06 01:12 PM by mzmolly
personally > "Liberals are defending Saddam." :eyes:

However, thanks for posting, very interesting and necessary information. - Recommended.
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 01:16 PM
Response to Original message
13. and...if Saddam had testified in the ongoing Kurdish Trial...he might have
revealed all those nasty details about how we sold the stuff that was used.

Unfortunately...if he's now out of the way....(and give the "truth telling" record of this administration who knows if he's really gone or has been whisked away somewhere)...the attention on the truth will be gone. Some obscure Kurdish Trial that no one wants to know about isn't going to call attention to the Weapons of Mass Destruction that either Saddam or Iran used on the Kurds.
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earlybelle Donating Member (99 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 01:20 PM
Response to Original message
14. No one in power cared about the facts or truth then, none care now. We are at their mercy
unless and until we, the people, decide that enough is enough.
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King Coal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 01:24 PM
Response to Original message
16. Thanks. K&R.
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Garbo 2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 01:40 PM
Response to Original message
17. K&R n/t
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xchrom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 01:43 PM
Response to Original message
18. the info on the type gas used and reagan's involvement
is very important to keep out there -- even though it's been around a long time.

it's very important to keep that stuff front and center.
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Jcrowley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 02:14 PM
Response to Original message
19. K&R n/t
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Little Star Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 02:53 PM
Response to Original message
20. Thanks for posting this info and links.
I am ashamed to say I have never read any of this before. I was however wondering if we had all the facts on the validity of the Kurd gassing by Saddam. Thanks again.
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matcom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 03:07 PM
Response to Original message
21. THANK YOU WILL
and you KNOW that is ALL I can say on the subject ;)
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 03:10 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. The chair is against the wall.
John has a long moustache.

;)
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matcom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 03:12 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. Remi pees at midnight
i repeat...

Remi PEES at MIDNIGHT!
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 07:37 PM
Response to Reply #23
34. Ew.
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matcom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 07:39 PM
Response to Reply #34
35. I give you PROOF!
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 08:58 PM
Response to Reply #35
37. More like "Remy humps the fence in Fall."
:P
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scarletwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 03:16 PM
Response to Original message
25. All of this goes to the reason that Saddam's execution needed to happen before the 2nd trial.
Thanks, Will, for putting this information out in front so that those who weren't aware of these things before now, can catch up on some very pertinent information.

I wonder how the Kurds feel now, having their day in court thwarted by the U.S. puppets in the Iraq "government". I hope they understand that, with so many dirty secrets to keep covered up, it would have been highly inconvenient for BushCo had the trial on the gassing of the Kurds been allowed to proceed.

Hopefully, this particular event will disabuse the Kurds of any lingering illusions that BushCo does not consider them expendable.

In fact, pissing off the Kurds may very well be part of the larger BushCo/neocon strategy; which appears to be about setting as many different groups as possible at each others' throats throughout the entire Middle East.

sw

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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 04:18 PM
Response to Original message
29. kickin, so people are informed
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Dangerously Amused Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 05:14 PM
Response to Original message
30. Thank you. K&R.
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PassingFair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 05:20 PM
Response to Original message
31. Tryin to RUIN a perfectly good HANGIN'
Why do you hate America?
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 05:23 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. Why do you hate America?... ah hahaha.
that gets me everytime. dont know why. cute
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Disturbed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 06:01 PM
Response to Reply #32
33. Busholini is a pathological Liar.
The sad thing is that millions believe those lies that he spews out. The Corp. Media mostly goes along with the lies so we are left with trying to forward the truth on the Net.
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spanone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 07:41 PM
Response to Original message
36. Rust Never Sleeps. Bastards. K&R
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 09:58 PM
Response to Original message
38. I wonder how many DUers have never read these accounts??
Judging from some recent posts, quite a few...
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ninkasi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-31-06 03:36 AM
Response to Reply #38
40. I remember reading
that the gas was probably Iranian two or three years ago. It might have been here, on DU, but the information has been public knowledge for those who cared to look for the truth. I guess I've gotten cynical in my old age, but don't some of Bush's policies kill, as well? Look at New Orleans, and the Gulf Coast when Katrina hit. His inaction was responsible for many deaths. I won't even get into the gutted environmental regulations, stripped of power in order to keep his corporate masters happy.
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Zodiak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-31-06 03:04 AM
Response to Original message
39. I appreciate tackling this issue, Will
I have often been called a "conspiracy theorist" for raising questions about the vailidity of the claim that Saddam gassed his own people within my social circles. It certainly is a possibility, but it is unproven.

I do not like unproven claims. I just want the facts so we can go from there. There are precious little "facts" beng bandied about as of late.

Tonight, I asked my parents-in-law why Saddam was hanged (I like to survey people), and they told me because he killed 153,000 Shiites. No one really knows why he was convicted...they just think it was because he gassed his own people. I set 'em straight that it was over 150 or so death sentences in 1982. They had to believe me because I have been telling the truth about Bush for 6 years straight and it has become obvious I "know stuff" (translation: I read DU).

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Recursion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-31-06 03:41 AM
Response to Original message
41. A lot of the "mass graves" we trumpeted about finding in 2003 were fake too
Now, some of them were legit, but several were actually Iraqi Army columns that got obliterated by the USAF in Desert Storm.
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Laurab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-31-06 10:04 AM
Response to Original message
42. Thanks - I'm ashamed to say I wasn't aware of this either
Although I've been avoiding the Saddam threads for the most part. It never ceases to amaze me how many lies we've been fed - say it often enough, and it becomes "fact" I guess.

It's too late to let actual facts interfere with another Bush administration murder, of course, but I am so ashamed of my country, of this administration and their blood lust. I'm just sickened by the whole thing. K & R.

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leesa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-31-06 10:36 AM
Response to Original message
43. Yup. Old information. Which is why it was a crime to execute Saddam
without having these trials held.
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Blue_Roses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-31-06 01:53 PM
Response to Original message
45. Damn, you people who can't stick to the
Edited on Sun Dec-31-06 01:54 PM by Blue_Roses
"media's story";):sarcasm: You know what they say, "pay no attention to the man behind the curtain,"...

...or else...

:kick: This needs to be on every front page newspaper far and wide...

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Little Star Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-01-07 03:36 PM
Response to Original message
46. K&R
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Little Star Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-01-07 03:40 PM
Response to Reply #46
47. Oops to late to R. n/t
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