Do you think they REALLY are opening mail, tapping phones?

Okay, tapping phones they've been doing for years. But someone pointed out not long ago that just the FEAR of being monitored and watched is just as effective as actually watching and monitoring. Hartford did this years ago with traffic cameras. The mounted them conspicuously all over the busiest exit ramps and traffic areas, with signs on them pointing them out. That should have been the first clue...a DOT official eventually let it leak that they really didn't have the money for all that, so they just put up empty shells instead of real cameras. Being behave differently if they THING they're being watched. So whatcha think? 30,000,000 people in America...do you have any idea how many pieces of mail/e-mail/phone calls are made every day? It would require a work force of half those people just to "monitor" all this shit. I think, while Bush is an evil fuck, that half of this is just bullshit, another angle on the Fear Factor model of governance.

Discuss?

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Anybody on their lists-Hell Yes! And it doesn't appear to take much to get on a list.

They're checking it twice
They're gonna find out who's naughty or nice

Bushitler is spyin' on us.

I think that when something like this is announced, it means they have been doing it for quite a while.

Bill

Remember the initial NSA spying was supposedly a reaction to the 9/11 "attacks," but turned out to have been initiated immediately after Bush's coronation.

Still, though...is it illegal to SAY you're doing something illegal if you're not? What if Bush gets to trial (LOL!) and it turns out they were lying all along and didn't really open anyone's mail (which would be a criminal offense).

Just thinkin' out loud. I guess I'm still stunned that we've slid so far, that I'm trying to find a way to keep myself in denial.

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Your with us or against us, that meant for everyone, cause he sees things as only in black/white, good/evil, do what I say not as I do. He really has some mental issues, very dangerous for us. He needs to be committed.

Goering would be proud. . .

also i am sure they are watching some people's mail more closely than others

I pay all my bills online (which BushCo is monitoring!), and I can't remember the last time I wrote a letter on paper and mailed it! Contracts are sent to me online. I have a few clients I have literally never met face to face, conducting business entirely electronically. Which, I suppose, is much easier to monitor than having to have a human fish through a zillion envelopes looking for my birthday card to mom.

I mean...is Mullah Omar actually sending battle plans via first-class mail? My mailman can't get my freakin' NetFlix discs in the right mailbox!

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I can't recall the last time I wrote... or received an actual letter. Practically everone I communicate with is either through email or phone.

There is a reason so many people are so willing to bend over backwards for ANYTHING Bush wants. He's got the goods on 'em.

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Wonder if he wears the pink party dresses, too?
:crazy:

if someone says or types something that rubs them the wrong way. They are known to piece together cases from fake/far fetched evidence (i.e., finding Jose Padilla's Application to join Al Quaida... right :eyes:).

reason for doing this.

Fascists love to use fear to control the proles.

However, I am under no illusions that they won't hesitate to use this for their own purposes (which will have nothing to do with 'terra')

First - the technical capability in the NSA to snarf huge amounts of electronic communications has been in place for a long time, limited in its application by some rather easily circumvented legal barn door hexes. Google echelon.

Second - the gummint invariably uses and abuses whatever power it acquires, it is a universal rule of gummint.

Your point about the fear factor is also true: the added by product of their snooping capabilities is to further suppress dissident behavior in the citizens.

for Terrorism, and what, if any arrests, for other crimes using these spy tactics on the American People?

We can't conceive of how big & powerful these NSA computers are. So yeah, I think they're intercepting all emails & int. phone calls, and feeding it to the NSA data-mining computers to look for patterns. Mail's a physical thing, so it would be harder to monitor massive quantities of it - maybe they only open mail of suspected terrorists, or anti-war activists.

Completely off the subject: You know those signs on the freeway that say "speed monitored from the air"? Do they really do that, or is that just a scare tactic?

That's what the big white lines running across the highway are...mile markers. An aircraft times how long it takes you to get from point a to b, then radios an awaiting patrol car to nail you. Doesn't seem very cost-effective, though.

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Thanks. I only asked out of idle curiosity, of course. ;)

and I certainly consider myself, through a lifetime of good citizenship to my country, a strong and true american. I wouldn't think there would be any reason for anyone to question my credentials. But as I was thinking about this, I started looking at it from the viewpoint of someone who might be searching for anything that might point to un-american activity. So, how would I look to someone like that? 1. I am a member of DemocraticUnderground (the word Underground might sound a little radical to some people). And I have been quite vocal in my opinions. 2. I was born in another country, although I came here when I was very young. 3. I still have relatives in that former soviet dominated country, and I have flown over to visit with them. 4. I love France (Ah-Ha!) and have vacationed there, and plan to go again this year. 5. I have a bumper sticker on my car that reads
M peach W. 6. I am a member of the democratic party and have even attended conventions as a delegate. 7. I watch Jon Stewart four nights a week.

After compiling this information in my head, I'm pretty well convinced that I'm on someone's list.

I saw on TV a brief demo of a machine that was able to read unopened mail very easily. It was only on for a few seconds, but it appeared to consist of a bright light, an air blower to separate the contents of the envelope a little bit, and a camera with an extremely small depth of field. Might have been some contrast enhancement, too.

It wasn't much, but it made it clear to me that the ability to read most mail undetected does exist.

Invasive technologies continue to advance, but rather than protect us from them, legislators repeatedly make us even more vulnerable to them, either for national security or for the children.

The fact is that now I am aware and very very careful, when I am on the phone, to NOT say anything AT ALL political. A sad comment on the state of Liberty in America.

Also, I think the signing statement about opening our mail is a hedge against the time when they are successful in regulating the internet. Yeah I am wearing a tin-foil snood these days...Thank this current administration for my galloping paranoia.

:shrug:

than to actually do it, and judging from the long list of terrorism convictions resulting from this surveillance :sarcasm: , I'd say it's just as likely this bungling bunch of tossers is faking the whole thing. Hell, they've lied about everything else.

Threats are powerful behavior modification tools, and they know it. I remember using the old "count to three" standard on my chilren. As in, "I'm going to count to three, and if you don't pick that up..."

I never once, not once, ever made it to three. They'd always scramble at two. Funny thing is, they had no reason to fear anything, since we didn't spank or other corporal punishment. But the threat of the unknown was enough.

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on how far our country has fallen thanks to these Neo-con fear mongers. I hate that it is working on me and that I walk around afraid to open my mouth and I hate that I believe that there is NOTHING they won't do to keep their power. Nothing. I hate that I fear and I hate that I hate.

I never used to be so fatalistic.

:cry:

The fact is, they CAN do it.

We still don't know whether anyone from the Bush Team did some sleuthing on the 2004 Democratic Presidential candidates' teams. At one point, there was some talk that Christine Armanpour (sp) has been tapped; the same one who is married to one of Kerry's team. That quickly got dropped.

I'm surprised the news media isn't all over this one en masse. Does the Washington Times editorial board think these things are all just fine and dandy necessary evils? Or will they suddenly change their tune when a Democrat sits in the Oval Office?

The fact is, this "Global War on Terror" is a war without end. The excesses and protection from oversight claimed by the president under the guise of "war powers" is permanent.

Using the guise of "Homeland Security".

Since gov't reading of mail is so easy (see #20) and now apparently legal, anyway, what steps can we take to assertively protect our own privacy (as opposed to looking to the gov't for guarantees)?

I don't understand why more people don't encrypt email as a matter of course. It's not hard to do, but in years of trying I've only been able to get 3 or 4 people to even try it. I can only conclude that the vast majority of people don't care who reads even their most personal words.

Encryption only keeps out low-level hackers. At the government level, I'm sure they've already figured out PGP and all the "normal" encryption methods.

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Public key encryption is not perfect protection. It can be cracked, but the resources currently required are very large, even for the relatively small keys that are standard. Compared to reading a letter in an envelope, the task is gargantuan.

It may be a red flag, but so what? If more people did it, it wouldn't be a red flag at all. If you are already on the Enemies List, the red flag doesn't do additional harm. If you aren't on the Enemies List and you aren't an enemy, then they are wasting their time putting a red flag on you. To me, the Red Flag argument is not a good reason to not encrypt.

Doing something is better than doing nothing, imho. You can't just leave it up to the gov't, especially when they are saying that they're going to snoop.

Dear Government Mail Reader:

"Aren't you ashamed at your "job?" What if this had been YOUR letter to YOUR mom or girlfriend, or the Free Clinic perhaps? Don't you understand that the Constitution trumps your lying boss's signing statements every time? Come back into the light...leave the dark side. Your soul will thank you." - signed, An American Citizen

i am thinking of forwarding my junk mail to the white house. let them reead it. i dont.

Whenever they want.

Bush thinks he can walk on water, and turn water into a Hamm's 40, and convert the Muslim world to a Christian democracy.

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But it would be very, very easy for someone to target certain recipients to have their mail opened. The way the postal system sorts mail would facilitate this action only at the point of the greatest depth of sort.

Let me explain:

Our DBCS machines are capable of sorting 40,000+ pieces of mail an hour. All this goes into bins- up to 230+ on one machine in my building- which are then routed to still other machines, until they are all finally sorted in carrier walk sequence.

It would be simplicity itself to pull a tray for "inspection" which is going to the 200 area zip code. This wouldn't even require a conspiracy.