Is anybody here optimistic about the future? I mean, the long-range

future (next 10, 20, 30 years) of the US as a whole? If you are, please share your thoughts.

inaccessibility of healthcare for people who are partially disabled will have taken its toll, and I honestly don't expect to live much beyond the first 10.

And that's just the way my country wants it.

see you on the other side.

See you wherever, looking forward to it, oddly enough.

burning desire to rule the world, that life will be more pleasant. It is much less hectic and simple in the Irish county of my choice.

I am optimistic about now and the future.

We are still the most free country on earth, with the most opportunity for success. We have great people, abundant resources, and the rule of law.

but can you honestly say that we are the "freeist country on Earth" right now?

I just would like to point this out because your statement is a myth that promotes American exceptionalism (you know...we're #1 so anything we do is automatically good). We need to look at ourselves honestly if we are to have any chance at getting our standing in the world back. Jingoism doesn't help...the truth is Bush has damaged freedom in this country beyond the ability to repair in a short time. You and I both live in a proto-fascist state that can be made worse if we contiue to delude ourselves. Denial is a major component in the rise of fascism.

We have to internalize that if we are to do anything about it.

I also would argue that the rule of law and the opportunity for success has been severly damaged, as well.

Yes, we are the most free country on Earth. If you disagree, please name the ones that are more free. I can live where I want, read what I want, work where I want, go to school where I want, start a business if I want, marry who I want, have as many or as few kids as I want, enter into contracts that will be enforced at law, say what I want, write what I want, travel where I want, and on and on. Are there some limits in reality to these freedoms, i.e., economic realities? Of course. But that doesn't mean we're not free.

I do not subscribe to doom and gloom. Nor do I elevate Bush to the level of Sauron in his evilness or power to wreak havoc on this country. This country is bigger and better than any one president.

Pessimism is a very negative attribute that keeps a lot of people from succeeding.

But that is not the issue...neither optimism or pessimism in pure form is very useful. I'm sure that can be agreed upon. So where is the line drawn?

As a opening statement, I'm glad you mention economic realities. Economics provide chains to man just the same as totalitarian states do...the apparatus matters not to the one wearing chains. New Orleans is an excellent example of people in large numbers in this country who are not able to live "where they want" for econmic reasons. I find it hard to tell them that they should relax because they have been free all this time as long as we ignore their "economic realities".

Now for your list: Live where you want? Tell that to a person who disagrees with his homeowners' association over the length to cut their lawn or to the person whose land was stolen by imminent domain for the building of a new Walmart.

Read what you want? Tell that to someone who gets caught with a copy of the "Anarchists' cookbook" or checks out flagged books at the library. Are you aware how much what we read is watched? What about your email, or your snail mail for that matter?

Go to school where you want? Tell that to the poor kid who grew up in the ghetto who, despite excellent grades, cannot get into Harvard because a student loan doesn't cover tuition. Or the millions of middle-class families who have the same problem. There go the economic realities once again that are just as restraining as totalitarian laws. Notice it was the laws that suddenly made these economic realities more pronounced?

Start a business if you want? Economic realities once again...all made worse by the application of uncaring, proto-fascist laws that act as gatekeepers. Also, try running a dildo or a head-shop business in the South and see if they let you run the business you want.

Marry who you want? Only if you are heterosexual.

Have as many or as few kids as you want? Not really...economic realities once again, and God help you if you want to have fewer kids in South Dakota and your rubber breaks. You might be able to get the abortion, but you have to drive to the one location in the state where it is done.

Contracts enforced by law? Only for those that can afford good lawyers who know what they are doing. Everyone else is thrown to the dogs. I'm sure those that have lost their pensions in the auto industry suddenly have a lot of faith in "contract law" nowadays.

Say what you want? Not in the Bush era. You are relegated to a "free speech zone" or may be put on a terror watch list for protesting and suddenly cannot fly anywhere. Oh, that also adresses your "travel where you want" line. For saying what you want, you can also be shot with rubber bullets, hit with tasers, and sprayed in the face with mace.

For the record, I never said Bush was Sauron, so you do not need to raise that strawman. But I do take umbridge with the blind assertion that we are the freeist country in the world. In press freedom alone, we are only 56th or so. What other categories do we fall short? You should ask yourself that question the next time you use that myth as a rhetorical device.

You will get savaged on DU for such jingoism. Too many here know exactly what we are up against and know how dangerous it is to sweep it under the rug because it is "too ugly for America". The type of thinking you have put on display is thought to be part of the problem by many DUers, and will draw a lot of justified and researched criticism. I have a feeling you will learn a lot of ugly truths here.

Maybe we are using the term "freedom" differently. To me, freedom does not mean that everyone can do absolutely anything they want to in life. For example, I can't be a major league baseball player. I can't live in a $5 million dollar mansion. I can't buy a Rolls Royce. (Well maybe I could but it would be repo'd next month). But is it correct to say that I am not FREE to do those things? I don't think so. I would be free to do those things if I had the wherewithal to do it. The fact that I personally can't do those things does not mean that we -- as a country -- don't have those freedoms. Your basic argument seems to be that because some people can't afford something means that we don't have freedom. I respectfully disagree. And again, I would ask what developed country outshines USA in its freedom? Of course we don't have unlimited freedom; that would be chaos. So just because you can cite instances where freedom is curtailed, e.g., eminent domain (which I despise!), it does not mean we are not a free nation.

If my statements are going to draw the wrath of DU'ers, I do not mean to offend. I am simply stating that I think America is a great country and that we have a lot of freedom. It's not jingoism; it's my personal opinion and I am expressing it in a very free and open discussion forum.

you have no problem. Try expressing pessimism in this country. Try being a dissenter. Then you will realize where the limits are on what you call freedom.

Try being a dissenter and see where the limits of freedom are? Do you not realize you are posting messages on a website where there is little BUT dissent. Have any jack-booted thugs knocked down your door as a result? There are many outlets for dissent in this country, which is fantastic. Keith Olberman can get on national t.v. every night and bash Bush. Air America is on around the country. Left-wing magazines and websites are all over the place. Have any been shut down by the governemnt? Has anyone gone to jail because of the content of what they've said. Michael Moore has made a living (a heck of a living) from being a dissenter. And not only has he not been penalized, he was given a seat of honor at the Democratic convention.

Dissent is alive and well. And it's because we have freedom of expression in this country. Try going to Cuba or China and speaking against the government. Then you may appreciate the freedom that you do have here.

You defintion for lack of freedom seems to be confined to Gestapo police states and totalitarian communist states. If we were only comparing America to them, yes, we would come out smelling like roses.

But that was not your assertion. Your assertion was that the US is #1. We fall well-short of that mark, I assure you.

I compare America to our ideals, which means we have free and open debate in our society. We do not...we control dissent in a "friendlier" way than the despots you cite.

Our form of controlling dissent is to ignore it or relegate it to the fringes where it can harm the powerful as little as possible. There still have been reprisals, but not as visible as Keith Olberman. If you are looking for the status of KO and Moore to indicate how much freedom we have, you are looking through the fishbowl of the media's lens. People who are not on the news, like the Quakers, code Pink, former FBI whistleblowers, and certain journalists suffer reprisals for their dissent nonetheless, mostly economic ruin and widespread discrediting, but sometimes jail and violence.

By the way, Air America is being gutted out by Clear Channel as we speak because they have been taken over economically by corporatists. Not a good example to use to indicate the health of dissent in this country. Today is the first day we have no AAR in Central Ohio.

When dissent is controlled (rather than squashed into nothingness like the Nazi Germany), it is still curbing freedom. Long ago our government learned that as long as they aren't rounding up and gassing people, optimists and jingoists will comfort themselves and do nothing even though freedoms are more and more curtailed. That is the condition we find ourselves in today.

Ask yourself, when is the last time they let Micheal Moore have an hour-long show...and is Keith Olberman a liberal or just a moderate who has had enough? Where are the liberals on TV news? Where are the true liberals in Congress? Are they allowed a platform? When you answer these questions, you will begin to see how consent is manufactured in this country. OR you could read the book "Manufactured Consent".

Part of what you cite is the normal forces of the market. For example, you ask when is the last time "they" let Moore have a t.v. show. Who is the "they" to whom you refer? The government? Mainstream Media? Do you even know if Moore has been seeking a t.v. show? My guess is that if a network could earn good money from putting on a Moore show, it would be on tomorrow. I don't think the government is keeping Michael Moore off the airwaves. As for AAR, it has apparently not done well enough with sponsors to earn its keep. That's not the fault of the government.

I agree that fringe voices tend not to get a lot of airtime. But is that because the government is suppressing freedom, or because there's not much of a market for it?

And if there are not enough liberal leaders in this country, the fault lies with the voters who put them in office.

regulation with Bush in office. Competition isn't encouraged so much anymore. Air America made mistakes, but then the environment was also hostile. Bush is a danger to our freedom, and any DUer should agree with that.

You're jumping in in the middle. No one said anything about whether Bush is a danger to freedom. We were talking about whether America has a lot of freedom. And I also don't like your implied threat at the end: "And any DU'er should agree with that" as if there is some sort of litmus test with a penalty if I don't believe as you do. OK, I give. America is a lousy country. It's a fascist corrupt piece of s--t where no one is free to do anything. No one can dissent for fear of being sent to Gitmo and get tortured. The White House writes the daily MSM news and also pays R-wing talk show hosts to brainwash the masses.

There, happy now?

I stated that our country was proto-fascist, not fascist. It will take anotehr terror attack to pull us over the cliff entirely, and the legal apparatus for such has been put in place post-Katrina (all the posse comitatus talk).

I never said we are not free to do anything, just that we are not #1. I know it is easier to turn my argument into that becuase it is easier to shoot down, but that is why good debators do not use strawmen...it exposes the weakness of one's position to use logical fallacy.

I do not threaten. That is the purview of too many others here, but I am stating what my years of experience here tells me is the prevailing opinion here. I do not profess to speak for other DUers and like many, I have no "clique" so I do not have any influence of opinion here beyond my words. Trust me, no threat was implied.

But you are right...many do not openly dissent against this country for fear of reprisal (maybe not necessarily torture and Gitmo). The fact that GITMO and torture are even brought up is a damning indictment to the state of freedom in this country as is, fear of dissent for other potential reprisals notwithstanding.

The last line is actually very close to the truth, even if you did not intend it to be so. It is well-known that under most circumstances, television news does not examine white house positions beyond their press releases.

My sarcasm was directed to MVD, not you. You've been very respectful and analtical in your posts, which I appreciate.

I agree reporters need to investigate, not simply report what they are told. That's the fault of shoddy journalism and too much emphasis on t.v. face time.

I just don't understand why someone thinks America is #1 under the circumstances. It's just not true. Actually, I was hoping you'd at least agree that Bush is a threat.

BTW, you were being sarcastic, but the White House may be relaying the news to the MSM more than you think. Gannon was there, remember, and the owners of much of the media are lazy with interests that are similar to Bush's.

It is not true in reality...maybe not on Kos or the SmirkingChimp, either.

But out there....in America's TV land, it is true. America is #1 in all of our endeavors and anything we do is only for the good of others because we are the best and the nicest country in the world.

When a few wander from TV land into here, they do not know that their head is full of lies. They sure didn't seem like lies in TV land. Even public school enforces TV land, so I hardly blame the person with the lies in the head.....just the liars.

People need to be deprogrammed....that is all. We do it out of love for them and our country.

I had to be deprogrammed from 12 years of public education in North Texas, years of involvemnt in the Boy Scouts, and being the son of a long-time Air Force NCO. Needless to say, I was angry to learn what they didn't tell me and even rejected some of it because it was too hard to take. It is a common reaction from someone who loves their country...but has been doing it for the wrong reasons.

your points. The media is a big problem and is part of the reason why some people wonder what the Democrats stand for.

He loves his country and is doing what is the "acceptable form" of loving one's country...promulgating our myths of exceptionalism and defending them against the pessimistic leftie fringers who are out drag this country down with our negativity. (well, maybe not as bad as that, but you get the gist).

I did it when I didn't know any better (and I considered myself "smart"..hard to be "smart with only half of the story). That was only like ten years ago.

This nightmare has led many to question...even if the questioning is not yet with all of their soul. That is a good thing, but so much damage has been done...it is hard to imagine if the wakefulness can keep up with the horrible "agenda" we are up against.

Many Americans don't want to believe the worst about their leaders.

proto-fascist agenda are certainly aware of this hurdle and encourage it to the Nth degree. It makes thm look like they are on the side of America (when they are destroying it) and their critics are "America-haters" because we do not subscribe to the jingoism.

Some would argue that the jingoism was put into place precisely so an agenda like this would encounter a favorable environment. A European would argue that, certainly, because many EUers are turned off by American exceptionalism...they know the ultimate results of such pervasive ideas because they have seen them first-hand.

their purpose is to make sure that America loses no influence in the world. They'll start illegal wars and even maybe have faked terror to do so. They have no intentions of having a global environment.

I really was not saying it was wrong for Mikey to love his country. I do, too.

I apologize if it seemed so.

It was more meant for the casual DUer reading this thread who might be hasty with the "alert" button on Mikey's first post.

I don't think Mikey is a Freeper. And I wasn't calling him one in my post - just thought we could agree on my point. Disagreements are common on DU, but a few things hold us together.

I've got two little kids at home: 6 and 2. I have to believe that there is a good future in this country because I want them to live long, healthy, happy lives. I don't want them to grow up being pessimistic and cynical and thinking there is no hope. I want them to strive to accomplish whatever they want to accomplish. Is that so wrong?

I'm all for questioning authority. But I have to admit -- there is a running theme on this message board that irks me, i.e., that America is a lousy place, that it oppresses people, that it strives to dominate others. I've just never seen it that way. Based on some of the comments on this board, it seems that people think our country is just as bad as China or Cuba or some third world dictatorship.

It just won't happen if these extremist Republicans are allowed to keep the Presidency. We do try to assert our influence too much - we can't bully the world like the neocons do.

You are right, though - we aren't like China yet. But Cuba actually does try to do good stuff for their poor. And Castro is actually helping to provide heating oil to our poor when we should be doing this.

Do you have any in mind? And does that freedom apply to everyone-citizens and immigrants- or just citizens?

Surely these are not rhetorical questions asked without reading the above material.

Phil Donahue from his show on MSNBC. It was the highest-rated show at the time.

Air America gets decent ratings, but they are being gutted, like I say. The paradigm is this: buy the AAR station, run it like crap, then when it fails, say "well, liberal radio failed". You should read up on the AAR issue to understand what is going on behind the scenes...it is really ugly and hardly the pure result of "market forces".

Your argument can eaily be put into the chicken and egg parable. Did liberal voices disappear from the "market" because they were not popular, or did the voices not become popular because they weren't allowed fair time on the airwaves? The answer to that lies in governmental policy. In 1986, Reagan allowed political debate in this country to have a skew by removing the fairness doctine, which allowed media corporations (which are hardly liberal) to decide how much debate and what side of the debate to put on television.

As far as blaming voters...there is plenty of that to go around, but how much can one blame someone who doesn't have all of the facts?

Should we blame you for not knowing that the US was not #1 in freedom in the world by what little metrics we have? Or should we just say...hey, you didn't know...and then ask you this question:

Why don't you know? Is it that you do not care or is it that you were not given the full spectrum of information? Why were you not given that information? In whose interest is it that you do not have that information?

These are the types of questions that we should ask ourselves, but the answers are not always palatable.

I noticed that you referred to liberals as "fringe". Are liberals "fringe" because donot ever see them? Are they "fringe" because they are referred to as "fringe" on television? Do you know how many liberals there are? Are liberals self-described or described by ideology? What is a liberal?

The answers to these questions might somewhat shock you, but they will certainly let you know how you got the word "fringe" in your lexicon right next to "liberal". That is part of manufactired consent, as well. Do some googling, and you will find that liberals, liberal ideas, and liberal political positions are hardly "fringe" in American politics...only the perception is.

that big corporations do?

Right now, we are basically at the whim of Bush doing what he says and only focusing on terrorists - and common sense tells me not to believe that. Habeas Corpus was also in effect taken away. And even in countries that have wiretaps and stuff, there is some oversight.

and a great country is close, but not jingoism. Jingoism is to say it is #1. There is no source in the world that will back you up on that..it is just something we tell ourselves all of the time.

That is what I am pointing out more than anything. It is a canard that let's us divest ourselves from responsibility for our government. Why try to improve things if we are #1?

There is no universal metric for freedom, but there are good indicators. Good indicators are press freedoms and human rights freedoms. You should read up on our HUGE prison populiation in comparison with the rest of the world...mostly for drugs (a non-violent crime) and what human rights watch has to say about that. The only countries that compare can hardly be called "free".

And, as been pointed out many times in this sub-thread...we rank between 31st and 56th on press freedom in the world. Hardly #1.

Those are the metrics presented to you....even though you made the original assertion without source and up until now have not been asked to provide it. If you have another source that presents a methodology that says we are #1, please feel free to post it. Otherwise, in the face of a growing body of contrary evidence, it is simply a phrase that we tell ourselves to feel important and superior....the very defintion of jingoism.

You write very well, I have to say.

You are right -- there is no objective system to evaluate freedom. So why all the disagreement? Why can't I have my opinion that I think our country is great? I didn't say other countries are awful. I just said we live in a great country with a lot of freedom. To your way of thinking, I can't have that opinion without it being jingoism. I disagree.

I'm curious: Who conducted that freedom of press study? And what was it based on?

You can say we have freedoms and think we are a great country...we do not disagree on that. I take no excpetion to a little nationalism...it is healthy to love one's country. I certainly do or I wouldn't be working so hard to save it from the bad road it has decided to walk upon.

It crosses into jingoism when you say #1.

As far as the press report....I believe the link to the report is a few posts down-thread....it is titled "source for 31st", I believe.

Thanks for saying I write well. You will find I write like crap compared to many around here, but since it is the first time it has ever been said of me, I'll take it. :)

I think this whole "are we #1 or not?" discussion is wrong-headed. It's clear that we are not #1 in many aspects of freedom, but we're still pretty high up on all the lists I can find. I feel free. If there's an aspect in which we score poorly, I need help with finding it.

In recent years there has been some erosion of freedom in the US and that needs to be stopped and reversed. There are certainly signs of trouble. But we're still a good and very free country. I think we can celebrate the high level of freedom in the US even as we set higher goals for ourselves.

For one.

Sorry, I'm too tired to search it out for you, but you are wrong.

We were 31st out of 166. We received a 6.00 score on a scale of 100.

no need to search it out because the poster has already ignored it or didn't bother to read it.

Do you really need to rebut someone who says that we are free because "he feels free"? I do not think we are in danger of that post swaying opinions around here.

On edit: wow...it was the poster who posted that link. I'm shocked.

named one thing that I can't do in Ireland.

being free to start whatever business he likes is not allowed in the usa, many many many businesses involve licenses that are hard to get, restricted, and completely closed to people who have criminal records (and an enormous percentage of our population has criminal records)

of course i am a woman so it may be different for him, but i'm usa born and raised and i have never felt free, what i have encountered in my life has been roadblock after roadblock, some legal, some extra-legal, but i have experienced HUGE barriers in being able to live my life the way i would have chosen

i can't even build my house as i would like, it's all decided by the construction industry so that i can have a less safe house, wasteful of materials, that is more expensive than the innovative house -- you see, we have laws that protect big industry like construction against innovation!

here only the rich are free, the rest must marry or take a certain job and never let it go for health insurance, the lack of universal health care alone restricts an american's choices every single day

i can't tell you how many people i know who can never quit a job to get a better one or to start a business or because they're tired of a shithead abusive boss -- because if they quit, their handicapped spouse or kid could not get health care again

>>here only the rich are free, the rest must marry or take a certain job and never let it go for health insurance, the lack of universal health care alone restricts an american's choices every single day

i can't tell you how many people i know who can never quit a job to get a better one or to start a business or because they're tired of a shithead abusive boss -- because if they quit, their handicapped spouse or kid could not get health care again
>>

So true!

You're right. You're a woman and you're trapped in our patriarchal system of oppression, no different than living in a third world country or living in the middle ages. Might as well just give up.

I cannot keep on trying to explain myself so I'm going to stop. I will not be beat down by the pessimism and negativity on this thread. You all act like we're living in some dark, apocalyptic dictatorship where no one can dare say a word without fear of government reprisal. That is not the case. If you believe it is the case, so be it, but I repsectfully disagree.

n/t

Well Said!

I hear the america is number one line all too often and think in my head at what? Our education system has been reduced to a joke our economy is on the verge of collapse and is only being held together at this point by the fear of the rest of the world that if we go down the rest of them will have no where to send their cheap crap. The free to mary who you want line should be glaringly obvious as false. The list goes on and on in fact the only thing I truly see us as number one in any more is consumption and that is likely on its last legs as more and more people go upside down in their mortgages and the savings rate continues to be negative.

We have told our scientist they cant tell the truth unless it follows the political agenda. We have told our doctors they cant do research unless it is approved by the church. In our quest for safety we have destroyed our freedoms.

Its a sad thing to see but I am hopeful that its not to late to return to sanity.

"I can live where I want, read what I want, work where I want, go to school where I want, start a business if I want, marry who I want, have as many or as few kids as I want, enter into contracts that will be enforced at law, say what I want, write what I want, travel where I want, and on and on. Are there some limits in reality to these freedoms, i.e., economic realities? Of course. But that doesn't mean we're not free"

That's pretty much every modern country in the world.

"marry who I want"

Actually, there's about 30 million Americans who can't marry who they want. They can in other countries.

.

having this conversation with my oldest son. His younger brother and I volunteer to help staff a severe weather homeless shelter in our nearest big city.... When you really stop and face reality- we have set this society up so that we will always have people who live in oppressive, hopeless situations.

30 years ago, right in this small New Hampshire town where I live, it would not have been unheard of for someone to 'squat' on some of the acreage that was so common in our area. Now, in America, if you do not have a home, or money enough to rent an apartment, or at the very least a 'room'- there is no legal place for you to rest your head for the night.

THINK about that. With all the land that makes up this nation, we have succeeded in putting "ownership" on every single square foot of it, and regulated the use of those feet to the point that were the Depression of last century to happen today, our police Dept's. would be overwhelmed with people arrested for loitering, or being vagrants.

So, if you have no one... if you turn 18, and have no family or friends you can find shelter with, what ARE you to do????-

That simple realization is something I find profound- and very troubling.

The Native Americans believed that the land didn't 'belong' to anyone.- They had the right idea!

The Somali refugee's in our state that I have come to know, have said that it was strangely 'easier' to be poor in Africa. While you had 'nothing' including safety- you were not arrested, or condemned simply because you needed a place to lay your head. Not true in America.

If you have nothing- you are a criminal.

This is the land of the free????-

The most simple and basic of needs. A place to 'be' without being in violation of the law.


Think about this.

It blows my mind.


Sometimes it isn't a question of having hope. We all have some measure of it, or we'd be dead.

My own personal future is not bright. But my "HOPE" for the future of others, is strong. Despite the 'facts'.

They are much more free than we are.

anyone who thinks he can start any business he wants anywhere in the usa has never started a business, if you want to be free of legislation and free to start your own business then central america or perhaps russia is your place

europeans are much more free to travel and work where they want because of the european union, they have a choice of jobs across multiple nations providing them opportunities that are closed to americans, as most countries will not allow an american to work without jumping thru a very high number of hoops

if i was a citizen of any of many eu nations i could indeed travel, work, live, and marry over a wide choice of nations

as a us citizen, i have no such right, indeed, i can marry a foreigner as one of my siblings did and find it takes a decade for her to be allowed as a usa citizen

we have been trained to accept paperwork slavery and think it's normal, you don't even know what "freedom" is having never experienced it, it's kind of sad really

get out more and see what freedom really looks like

hint --- being afraid to quit a job because you can't get health care if you do is not freedom

europeans and australians take it for granted that they can take a whole year off and travel the world because of their health care compacts, an american could never dream of such a freedom

but we are NOT the most free nation on earth by any stretch of the imagination. We have more people incarcerated per capita - for non-violent offenses - than most third world nations and certainly all of Europe. How is that free?

We destroy the lives of our young people by making felonies out of petty drug charges, effectively cancelling out their rights to live, work, go to school, etc. How is that free?

If you are a female, you can be denied access to lifesaving drugs, abortion and birth control to prevent pregnancy. How is that free?

If you are a gay american, you cannot "marry who you want." If you "say what you want" on a T-shirt at the SOTU address, you will be escorted out of the building and threatened with jail. Or rounded up at the RNC in New York and put in nasty cells for days on trumped up charges. How is that free?

You can't go to New Orleans anymore - at least the one we used to have - or to The World Trade Center, and the White House - THE PEOPLE'S HOUSE that WE pay for - has become nothing more than a bunker for the elite. How is that free?

If you're a soldier, you can fight for your nation and come home only to have the military tell you they don't give a damn about what's wrong with you so just die already. Is that this freedom you speak of?

You cannot "travel where you want" if you want to go to Cuba, or if you are put on a bogus 'no fly list" as Senator Kennedy had done to him. One of out freakin' Senators was put through this crap!!! Free enough yet?

I could go on and on, but the main point is, America sucks right now, and if you think we are so wonderful, you need to talk to more people, get out more, open your eyes and step away from that Koolaid.

Canada
England
Ireland
Germany
Australia
Austria
Sweden
Norway
Finland
Iceland
Italy
Spain
France
Switzerland
Japan
Belgium
Holland

Handguns do not = Freedom

And that's only because "great people" is too vague
and generalized to even be rebuttable.

Totally untrue. We rank like 53 or something in freedom of press. Our media is a fucking hoax. Our civil rights have been unmercifully eroded under BushCo Inc.

Your statement may have been true at some point in history, but no more.

This source has U.S. at 31st, except for in Iraq which would be expected.
Most of those ahead of us are Northern European but a few are former Soviet (!)

http://www.rsf.org/article.php3?id_article=8247

that is simply untrue on both counts.

places.:rofl:

"It's called 'The American Dream' because you have to be asleep to believe it" - G. Carlin

If we learn by what we have gone through we may start moving in a progressive direction. The conservatives time at bat is ending.

I recently saw "An Inconvenient Truth", so as far as I'm concerned, I'm not even
that optimistic about the long-range prognosis for the entire planet!

All I will say is we are so much closer to ruin than ever before that I certainly won't be around to see the hopefull best come out of all of this damage .

Such we have had bad times in this country but we never had global warming as such a danger or such over population that one wonders if water will run out before the oil .

There is all the talk about bio fuels and crops but there is no talk about the low supply of fresh water on this planet .

Each great stride talked about leaves a massive void of information which I see as all based on hope for today and the near future .

Sorry to be such a drag .

we will figure it out. and our kids generation is really learning so much from the adult fuck ups

Optimistic about the future of the human race? Less so.

Optimistic about the future of human civilization as we know it? Barely on the radarscope.

Optimistic about the future of the United States? Absolutely zero. From my point of view SOYLENT GREEN will come to be seen as pollyannaish fantasy. We are done, and its time to head for the high ground.

But hey, LOST is on tv, and Battlestar Galactic, and Scrubs, so there is still something left to fill in the time until the waters rise.

Cylons can be babes!

I think that BSG is mandatory viewing for progressives, don't you? They seem to really tie current events into their storyline.

At least I'm optimistic about that.

But I'm with you on your list of optimism. I'm so cynical that I think we underwent a silent coup on 9/11.

of bouncing back. The problem is that we often do not act until the storm is on top of us. *ss and Co. are the last ditch of the idiots who assume that nothing is wrong. Once we get beyond them we in the US will begin working to survive. What makes me optimistic is looking around us to see all the things that are beginning to change already despite *ss. Communities large and small are moving to seek answers and there are also other areas of the world that are already way ahead of us in looking for those answers.

I am not expecting things to stay the same: for instance many futurist authors are suggesting that the USA will break up into sections and I agree. If the Bible belt insists on continuing their quest for a theocracy I think there will be a rapid breakup of the USA.

Those of us who want to move on cannot afford to wait around until the rest are ready to follow. We must begin now. My family is mostly poor but we are taking some lessons from history. We are trying to build a environmentally friendly lifestyle. We are studying up on gardening, herbal medicine, any ideas that would help in emergencies.

However I think the thing that makes me most optimistic is the fact that my entire family is involved. Even my young great-grandchildren have been helping to plant trees, garden, preserve food and collect tools.

that humanity will overcome this because we have always bounced back. By definition, after the one time they do not "bounce back", no one will be around to comment on how such a perfect record got ruined.

That is the game we are playing. We canot afford to lose, even once, and past successes are not an indicator of automatic future successes. Every species plays this game, and we are no different.

"The problem is that we often do not act until the storm is on top of us. "


" I think the thing that makes me most optimistic is the fact that my entire family is involved."

Now THAT is something to be optimistic about.

to be optimistic. 'WE' have seen the damage bushco and their neocon followers have done in the past six years with the potential of even greater damage in the next two years. I am hopeful 'WE' will elect a REAL LEADER of not only our nation, but the entire world in 2008. This TRUE LEADER will need to be the catalyst for radical changes in our economic, environmental and local and geopolitical conduct and policies. Our current priorities as a nation are all screwed up and 'WE' need to un-screw THEM really fast, for any hope of a future.

I think global warming will be the biggest issue to effect us down the road, and how we respond to it now will determine our success in the future.

It seems to me that the goal of every socially responsible citizen is to make this country better. This idea of improvement is best embodied in the Democratic party, which reaches a wider scope of citizens and platforms.

If we're not hoping for a better tomorrow, why are we here? If you don't think it's possible, what's the point of anything? Are you working to achieve what you see as a bleak future-or are you doing nothing?

DOn't give Bush too much credit. He's not that big of a deal. If anything, he's a speed bump on the road to progress. There's nothing that he's done that can't be undone(in terms of policy). There are going to be great leaders and there are going to be lousy ones. It's part of life, I suppose. Just because we have a crappy commander in chief doesn't mean we're doomed.

The possibility of stem cell research making it possible for people with spinal cord injuries to recover, the possibilities of preventing or curing other chronic, debilitating diseases, etc.

Affordability of such cures is another question.

Also, Democrats are "in charge" of oversight and can "inflict" common sense upon this arrogant/ignorant pResident, FINALLY!

Indeed, I am VERY hopeful, for the first time in about, ohhhh - 6 years!

:hi:

about America before! Having been political for such a long time, starting at about the age of 11, I need more time to see if we are going to see if the worm is really turning.

As long at these CREEPS are still in office, every fiber of my being is "on alert!" Democrats in control or not! TRUST and HOPE left the room for me a long time ago! And I consider myself in better shape than many many in the so-called "middle-class" because I haven't depleted all my cash on hand as yet! But the time may be just around the corner!

I only have 9 years left to pay on our home, and we a don't have many bills, but I'm on Disability and my husband took early retirement and we don't have much income so I budget carefully. We care for his mother who has Alzheimer's, the reason he took early retirment.

Then, the worst thing of all is the real suspicion that we haven't seen ALL the corruption that has taken place by BFEE and his cohorts!

I am really concerned about my kid's future.

Also, thanks to the Boob-in-Chief, the American Empire is in more rapid decline, and the "World's Mightiest Superpower" has been proven to be incapable of bullying the world into supplying it's wants in fear of our much vaunted, but helpless, military.

It won't happen in my lifetime, but I think that America will end up a second rate "power" like the nations of Europe and have to learn to cooperate rather than throw it's weight around.

were a second-rate power like the nations of Europe.

is because we're still the big kid on the block, and our interests are relatively the same. If not for the US military being the world's police and making sure the global economy runs smoothly, I'd bet more of that tax money European countries have would go towards the military, and not social programs. They would have to secure the resources needed themselves, like they used to.

The birth and death of every culture/empire/civilization has led to the global one we have today. If this one falls apart(and unless we have enough energy to keep entropy from happening, it will), those old centers of power will start butting heads again. It won't be about cooperation then.

We can cooperate today, because of cheap energy. We don't need(although still have) slaves. We have machines for that. If that cheap energy(in whatever form it takes) goes away, the world has more potential slaves today then ever.

It will most probably be a very bumpy ride to 2nd rate status as we (the American bosses) tried to hold on to power. If the European bosses are foolish enough to try to resurrect their empires against the emerging empires in the now 3rd world instead of realizing and accepting their impotence, then the cycle of war will continue.

However, I don't believe that's inevitable. That's why I'm (perhaps naively) optimistic.

back on track, we still have a madman and his cabal loose in this country, and they will not stop until WE stop them, all the more reason to get on the backs of Senators and Representatives, we just need to know as citizens what is going on here and abroad, we have to open our minds and not be denial of the issues, (I am not directing this towards the DU population).

have said that last Wednesday. I've become an increasingly angry person regarding this administration. But there is hope that sanity will rule again and we can undo what these maniacs have done.

On the other hand, not so sure about global warming. We have to do something big and we have to do it fast. We just can't continue to sit here and talk about it, we need to take extensive action NOW. From what I've read, things will get much worse, much faster if we don't drastically change our ways.

level and for my country. As a Senior who has been laid off and can not find a job, its pretty bleak. If I lose my health insurance (COBRA) I'm sunk and I worry about things like saving enough money to pay Real Estate taxes, insurances, utilities, even food. Unemployment does not go far. For my children and grandchildren, I worry. They are under a lot of stress. I have had my reasons throughout the years to complain, but I never had to face what young people face today. Some days, depression takes hold. Nothing particular will trigger it, but I can feel it descend on me. I know it is an unconscious reaction to the state of the world. My Dad used to say he worked hard so we would have a better life than he and my Mom did. I suppose that might be true of material things. He never had 2 cars, things like that. His generation and mine, for that matter, did not have to face a world on the verge of blowing itself up. They paid their bills because there were no credit cards. You bought a house with cash saved and a regular mortgage. None of the traps young people fall into today. Wars were fought for real causes, not pocketbook lining excuses for war by our leaders. Life was never easy and I don't suppose it should be but for those to come, I feel it will be far more complicated and frightening.

I too am a senior , we seem to become seniors sooner these days and I can't find work either and this scare the hell out of me . The jobs you can find you don't get and they pay $10 per hour so I feel down and out . I don't own a home but have rent to pay and have no insurance .

I don't have children to worry about but I do worry about my wife and myself and what future we will have or if we can survive during the time we have left on this ball of horror .

My parents worked hard and jobs could be found and there was promise of doing the same for me however now this looks pretty bleek . I never thought we would now at this time see another war and all this murder . I hoped we were past this but who could hav e seen bush coming along out of the depths ?

Too many people losing their jobs through outsourcing, and then losing health insurance.

It hasn't hit me personally yet, but I think it's just a matter of time.

This time seems to be the real test if it is even possible anymore .

Things change over time , we have more change and it's much faster now and we have many new problems to over come now than ever before in history . We have now as america become one of the major forces of world terror , we are now up front about this rather than in the back ground .

This attack on Iraq made this obvious to the world .

With all the high tech advancements we have used them more and more for destructive forces rather than for the good of all mankind .

I just don't see how we are going to turn this around . There are all sorts of books out there lately showing ways we can move forward but putting these ideas into action that works is quite another thing .

With this global economy and loss of jobs due to down sizing and corporate out sourcing and corporate buy outs , they have all the power and control . The USA has become a third world country in many ways .

If we can't turn this around then we have no hope for a future and I don't see how we can turn this around .

Bring in global warming added into the wars with soon everyone having nukes it is one scary place to live .


We still have a government controlled by madmen and the hope of dems with promise of change , well this sounds just like all the promise and hope I have heard for 45 years now and still things have gotten worse instead of better .

The dumming down of america has erased much of the hope of change .

and the loss of "good jobs" in the US.

It seems to me, too, that the US is becoming more like a Third World country.

When I hear all the talk about bio fuels and new cars that use them and then you add in the job situation into the mix .

How will people who can't find a desent paying job or any job at all expected to participate ? They , including me , cannot even afford to keep what they have going let alone think about getting a new fuel efficient car or even pay the bills they already have .

I suppose the new advancements are meant for only those who can afford to maintain a middle class income and all others are left out even though they want to work and hault global warming .

This is the part of the entire issue that troubles me and no one promoting new ways to advance ever mention this part of the reality .

I'm sure the people sitting in new orleans or miss are thinking about how they can help out , hell they are forced to help out since they have no cars or any means to pollute just like the homeless every where who are not included in anything . But this is fine for people to talk about since they are not screwed just yet .

This is why I am pessimistic because so many people are excluded and forgotten about even by the well meaning hopefuls .

My handle here speaks for what I really think and feel, that we're in for some very bad times and that a whole lot of humans aren't going to make it to their natural deaths.

and will be a time of unprecedented prosperity only if we can start weening ourselves off such an energy extravagent lifestyle. Also, we need to encourage more population growth, in order to insure the sustainability of our social safety nets.

Are you serious ? How will this secure anything ? I'm just asking , not bashing because I don't see how this will do anyone any good , aren't we already over populated and without jobs as it is ?

One's payments into the system do not cover the obligations the governement must pay. Baby boomers are currently paying the obligations to the WWII generation of americans. In the future, gen x will pay for the baby boomer's obligations. However, if the economy does not grow fast enough, they will be unable to pay those obligations. There are only two ways that our economy grows organically: productivity growth and population growth. We need both in order to sustain the economic growth rate necessary to cover our obligations to social security, medicare, etc.

I really don't see much evidence of overpopulation in america. I see wide open spaces. Most of our cities are well designed and planned for future growth. We are still a net exporter of food.

In order to sustain population growth you need jobs first and you need sustainable energy and you need water and land rich enough to produce either crops for food or bio energy . We are running out of all the above . People also live much longer today than ever before . What jobs do you propose we have to provide even an income for those that are alive now ?

I see plenty of evidence of over population , unless you are young you would not see the drastic population growth . Also we have a rapid increase of immigrants from all parts of the globe adding to the over all growth rate .

To simply base all on social security is a huge mistake . Beside Reagan doubled the amount of ss taken from all paychecks .

We need to focus more on the resouces we have in this country and alot less on resouces from other countries , this is one major reason we have attacks in the middle east . I don't desire killing for oil and oil is used to do anything that require production . Sure we will control population growth through endless wars as we seem to be doing right now .

What we spend on this alone would more than continue ss for all for many many years to come , war that is , we spend on war and death with most of our tax money .

There is no way to keep growing in population without destroying the entire planet at a accelerated rate .

please google "oil shale".

If there is no way to keep growing in population w/out destroying the entire planet at an accelerated rate, then why is smog and water pollution better now than in the 1970's here in Los Angeles, even though the population has more than doubled? You are completely discounting technological advances.

"Most of our cities are well-designed and planned for future growth." you say, tmpatience...

Trapped in cars fighting through dense bogged-down traffic breathing exhaust fumes--is your idea of "well-designed."??? :freak:

all cities have traffic and exhaust fumes. But compare some "old" cities like london/paris/munich to our modern cities like houston, san diego, and los angeles and you'll find our modern cities are much easier to get around (and much more livable too)

These cities have been taxed by the increase in traffic , since I have lived here since 1981 the traffic is more than ten times what is was and add in the huge SUV's and lousy smokey buses and mass freeway traffic jambs and bush removing EPA regulations .

Most old cities in other countries have well developed mass transit systems and they are designed to reach out to almost all of the population and people use them . Here in america everyone wants to be secluded in their new high tech car , self serving idiots that they are .

You cannot sustain this for long and look up peak oil , it will not last nearly as long as you think .

You are clearly wrong.

"Los Angeles ran into serious smog problems in the 1950’s and soon began introducing various kinds of regulatory controls. The progress made in cleaning up the air in Los Angeles can be assessed from the official figures for 1965 to the present on the number of days with violations at three progressively worse ozone levels: 95, 200 and 350 parts per billion. In the 1960’s Los Angeles violated the 350 ppb standard on 50 or 60 days per year, but the last day with ozone levels higher than 350 ppb occurred in 1982, more than twenty years ago. The last violations of the 200 ppb standard have been one each in 1998 and 2003, down from more than 100 per year in the 1960’s. And the number of days in violation of the 95 ppb standard has dropped from about 300 per year in the 1960s to 70 or 80 now. Clearly, regulatory actions can help greatly in reducing urban pollution events, but the Los Angeles situation with regulatory actions which began 50 years ago still leaves much room for improvement with violations of the 95 ppb standard now still found during 20% of the days"

http://www.bibalex.org/English/lectures/Rowland.htm


However, you are correct in traffic getting worse. Average commute time in the L.A. area increased a whopping 2.7 minutes from 1990-2000

http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/ctpp/jtw/jtw3.htm


Even if it costs 20billion dollars in each of america's top cities to improve public transportation, this is just a drop in the bucket relative to the national budget and economy as a whole. Public transportation will improve, no need to worry about that.

taught.

all have much better mass transit systems than anywhere in the US. In our so-called "modern" cities, city planning revolves around mega-malls where consumers flock to buy junk. Overbuilt sprawling subdivisions have not been planned for manageable growth. They are overnight storage bins for people and their detritus --not communities.

Depends on what you call "livable..."

" you'll find our modern cities are much easier to get around"

In the vast majority of US cities, if you don't have a car, you're screwed.

I've been waiting for him to be president since he joined the Clinton ticket in 1992. Now's his time.

I can't make a hospital visit without it wiping me and my family out financially.

So I don't go.

Whatever health problems I have now will just grow until they kill me suddenly when I am older.

That's life in the U.S.

As someone else said, that's the way they want it.

I don't trust any populace where Bush could have won one out of his two elections. 2008 will be huge.

however on the bright side when the worse of the fit hits the shan then i won't be around to endure it

all your complaints about impending facism in the US will seem trivial.Its amazing how life is getting set to run off a cliff and not a whole lot of discussion about it.

IMO youi can look at the world through different filters.

My view is that it's always been a roll of the dice, so I choose to be optimistic.

It's possible to take a pessimistic or cynical vierw and see all of the problems and potential calamities, and assume that we're going to hell in a handbasket.

Or one can be more neutral or hopeful, and accept that we don't know, and can't really even guess, and accept that the world has always had a lot of problems and potential calamities to contend with and we always seem to muddle our way through them.

I prefer to take the latter approach, because it's much better for the psyche. And in a larger sense, hope is what fuels solutions.

But I must admit that sometimes that deliberate optimism does get tested.

I am 60 years old, retired, and an economist by training. I think that between now and the day I die that I will see conditions in this country that are worse than during the great depression. I kid you not. Its that bad. This county faces an economic train wreck that will shake the world, and we will not emerge from it as the world's leading player, not by a very long shot.

you be optimistic?

Howard Kunstler's book is very alarming. He ties together the crises that are starting to come together, but his main point is we are past peak oil. If you go to his web site and read his posting for 1-1-07 in his "Clusterfuck Nation" blog you will get a taste of his talent.

I read "The Long Emergency" last year and I still haven't been able to shake my pessimism. Kunstler lays it out in such a logical, reasonable fashion that it's hard to see how we are going to extricate ourselves from this mess.

Did you have the experience of realizing just how many "Cargo cultists" we're surrounded with? If you mention Peak Oil, the standard retort goes something like "If we could put a man on the moon, our technology will come through." But after you've studied the alternatives you realize we can not simply create another energy source as useful as oil. It was a one-time deal that we squandered way too damn quickly.

Future Americans (if they exist) will hate us. As one futurist has said, they will look back and wonder at what kind of monsters we were.

We have a very very very long way to go.

future.

"Dizzying with possibilities"

i think of myself as an optimist ...

i see very, very dark times ahead for the US and all mankind ... i see a world rapidly depleting its resources ... i see the global political infrastructure undergoing massive turmoil ... i see the collapse of the stabilizing but oppressive US empire ... i see a world so overcrowded that our ignorance and bigotry will lead to greater and more frequent conflicts ...

so with all that, how can i call myself an optimist? easy ...

too many are not awake ... too many hold values that are false values or selfish values ... all this must change ... we have no choice but to put our humanity as our highest value ... we are all so greedy and self-centered and blind ...

from the darkness described above, I think we eventually will have no choice but to bind together in common cause and clean up our acts and build institutions and laws that reflect our highest ideals ... we will continue to suffer until we do ...

so, times will become very bad indeed but ultimately they will help us see the only possible path ... and for that I am grateful and optimistic ... you may see this view as pessimistic; i do not ...

Science used for the purposes of commerce is devaluing life, exponentially, on its current course.

Religion would have us all back in the middle ages.

Most people in the middle would come down on the side of science, but I don't think they fully realize where we're headed, and don't care as long as they get their miracle cures.

Let me tell you about my children.

My daughter will turn 27 next week. She is incredibly smart and well-adjusted, and recently married a great young guy whom I like a great deal.

My son is 19. He is so intelligent and well-reasoned (not to mention handsome) that it's hard for me to not brag about him.

And yet, my experience is that my kids' friends are just as great, just as smart, and there are millions and millions of them out there.

They'll have to pay for our social security and medicare. I think they're up to the task.

They'll pick the nursing home for me and Mrs. D. I trust they'll make the best possible choice.

Yeah, I'm optimistic.

I hope your kids understand their responsibility to save us all. Have they begun to move on it? Time is critical.

As a boomer without a retirement cushion, i figure life ends at the jump point.

Without the interest in dying drawn out in some hospital,
sticking around on this planet to watch a buch of idiots fuck it up from some hospital ward TV.. no.

So the long range future ends in the jump.

The overpopulation and destruction of the planet looks set to be total.

If you're planning on reincarnating on this earth, and you want to see living sea coral, then
i suggest you learn to scuba, as it will be dead by your next incarnation.. dead forever in this
cycle of human history...

There are no signs of any systemic mainstream awakening on this planet. It looks like we're set for some dreadful weather and an ice age while they fight it out.