(Advisory) TREASON, SEDITION, AND SUBVERSIVE ACTIVITIES

...and continue fighting neo-fascism.

If you actually overthrow the government ala Washington, Jefferson et al it's no longer treason.

we are openly recruiting foreign nationals (no, not green card holders either) to serve in the armed forces of the US...


In many nations service in a foreign military means teh forfeture of citizenship and in some, if there is open war, it falls under the rubric of treason.

So are we going to give these folks US Citizenship and I mean automatically, not even go through a green card process first. Incidentally that is why the Foreign Legion does that.

And I think you're wise to bring it up.

And I think your post highlights something else very real: as the pressure for impeachment grows - and it is only beginning - I think we'll very soon start seeing and hearing a lot of Rovian attempts to misconstrue legitimate and lawful impeachment efforts as advocating overthrow of the government.

They will attempt to gloss over the fact that no one person, or his appointees collectively or individually, constitutes the government of the United States. And they will surely try to gloss over the fact that working by legal means to remove an incompetent, criminal office-holder is the polar opposite of advocating overthrow of the government, and is, instead, actually working to protect and preserve the government.

It's important, I believe, to understand the pragmatic boundaries of advocacy - where advocacy may expose one to the scrutiny of law enforcement and where it may also expose others (e.g. DU). It's also important, I believe, to comprehend in principle where the duties and responsibilities of citizenship lie and understand how a failure of "We The People" to ensure that our own governance represents our collective democratic will cannot ethically translate into an expectation that those already sacrificing the most in service to their nation do even more. That, I firmly believe, is cowardice of the lowest and most despicable order.

(I'll avoid being more specific.)

:shrug:

who post threads which tear out my heart. The threads which contain one or more of the following ideas:

Why aren't the Troops resisting en masse?
Why aren't they stopping the War?
Those who serve are Evil for joining Bush's War.

I firmly believe it is going to take more direct action to stop this war, but most people are too insulated, too untouched or too frightened to make any real sacrifice to end the death & destruction.

... are not worthy of a democracy. The Founders knew this. We seem to forget.

Even as we watch the obscene folly of global plutocrats pretending to force a 'democracy' upon a People (like forcing 'love' on a woman?), we fail to step up to our duties and instead tremble like some melodramatic Nell cringling from Snidely Whiplash and crying for Dudley Do-right to save us from his evil clutches. Disgusting.
:puke:

troops should be able to decide what military operations they participate in.

Yep it brought to mind a Monty Python sketch, but I also tried hard to explain to this individual why this is not possible... brick walls are softer

As I've said before, I personally detest "military life" ... the culture is just not for me. Nonetheless, I've done my time and did well enough to pass my own standards. If necessary (and possible), I'd do it again - even knowing it's thankless. I've known many in the military for whom I have great respect - and some I've detested. But I never met a John Wayne or a Sly Stallone - just knuckle-dragging wannabes who never made it through basic training.

The media doesn't do us any favors, either. They don't show the crotch rot, the pants-pissing, the hours of boredom punctuated by seconds of stark terror, the Mickey Mouse or the Three Stooges. They don't show the escapist alcohol abuse, the loneliness, or the brotherhood. They can't. They can't convey the insanity ... the surrealistic insanity that makes Catch-22 look like a cartoon. When it's in the media, there's an audience ... but the reality of it has no audience. There's no applause. For the vast majority, there's no parades or red carpets or brass bands. At best, they get cheap tin and 5 minutes of attention - hardly more than a detour in the average citizen's commute.

The notion that we can ask people to risk or lose life and limb for what amounts to less than minimum wage and being treated like someone just off the short yellow bus - while we condemn them as less than human and treat them like their experience doesn't count in any civilian job - is truly corrupt. It's especially so when one's clinging to one's own comforts and conveniences and telling them to risk more at the same time.

wrote was precisely to bring some of that stark reality to the reader.

I have gotten comments like this is the first anti war war game I've ever played

I've done my job

In the fiction I'm refusing to write an American story where the hero ends not changed and survives hell.

Why?

It is stupid to think that people are not changed

You are of course getting me into one of my favorer rants, the US MEDIA glorifies war... which of course is needed in an imperial system

What we don't do is require the elite to serve. I mean for heaven's sake Prince Harry will deploy with his Regiment, even if the MOD is a tad concerned.

Jenna and Barb go to Argentina to get drunk...

which would portray exactly what you are speaking of?

Or, do you think it's possible to have some way that Vets like yourself can do enough public speaking to change perceptions?

Jes' askin', cuz I think I "get" what you mean, coming from another direction.

The closets they ever got to was Saving Private Ryan... and the protests for its violence and goriness was legendary

My, my, we went to watch it with my sis. The first 20 minutes my hubby and I had to remind ourselves this is a movie, no need to duck.

When we came out, my sister's comment was typical... it could not be that bad

We both looked her in the eye and said in one voice... no, it is worst.

One movie made many years ago that was horrific was Johnny got his Gun... most folks have never heard of it... it was a hollywood movie and you'd never see anything like that one produced today.

Hell, flags of our Fathers, it was also quite antiwar, and it lasted in the theaters for how long?

Part of the problem is that people do not want to hear how horrific it truly is. By the way we still play some video games but see the comedy in them and play war games, our favorite game these days is a WW II simulation called Flames of War. When we play it with the kids at the local game store, at times I gently point out that those "casualties" aka killed tanks or infantry stands, represent these many people killed or otherwise horribly wounded.

So the kids usually get a sobering realization that in the real game real people actually died.

What is worst I have been told off the record by agents that publishers will not touch anything that is openly antiwar or openly questioning what is going on... why I chose to self publish.

Wanna see the greatest AntiWar movie that doesn't trash troops, watch the film "Johnny Got His Gun"

I guarantee you will never look at war the same, this film needs to be shown all over College Campuses again and again, heavy rotation on HBO, etc.

Imagine Donald Sutherland as Christ telling a soldier that has NO Sensory capabilities any more, no arms, legs, face, nose, ears, etc that he should maybe "stay away from him" since Christ can't help the guy if he has no Senses.. frightening, the guy lives in a Closet in the VA and all he can do is breathe, shit, and hallucinate..

the BEST war movie ever. MINDBLOWING. Watch it, buy it, share it with your friends. :)

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0067277/

Great thread by the way, thanks!

I have watched it many a times.

But I will bet a dime on the dollar that Johhny got his gun will not be produced in the current environment.

I was "forced" to watch it in College and to read the book it was based upon by a professor teaching a revolutionary history course, the quest for peace.

Did I mention he was one of the crew assigned to the Enola Gay Squadron?

He had some of the most incredible people come talk to us as well.

(and after I got shot at more times than I care to remember, I hate war with a passion, that also changes your perspective. It is very easy to be loud mouth and say that you will be a hero sans getting shot at. Once you are... well... your perspective changes fully)

:patriot:

There were so many of them during Vietnam... "Where have they gone?"

That is a *wonderful* course. Makes me think that there really could be something productive coming out of a Department of Peace.

And, for you....:patriot:

Thanks.

Metallica's song "One" many people got turned on to that movie thanks to Metallica, I was one of them...

The brutality was not sidelined there, either. Human sacrifice and the brutality of extremely intimate hand-to-hand combat are graphically portrayed.

I absolutely believe that.

So much for true "literature" and "art". It won't sell.

However, you seem to be saying that even if it's not completely true-to-life, that it can affect people. Especially the kids, which is most important.

Thank you for patiently reminding kids about reality!

And, sorry for what you went through, and it's affects on you. :patriot:

... not to mention the mind-numbing periods of NOTHING. First and foremost, however, is the subliminal association of action with audience. Even with the movie that comes closest (imho) of portraying the surrealism/insanity (Apocalypse Now), the audience for such (largely fictitious) events leads people to unconsciously assume that the reality of it is audience-worthy. It isn't.

It's the act of serving honorably itself that's worthy of respect - not the illusory 'heroism' associated with some event. Believe me, pissing in your pants under attack feels anything but 'heroic' ... but it is. Yet who wants to see wet pants? Sitting in the weeds 100 yards outside your unit's perimeter with a field phone and sweating and itching while scared shitless that Charlie might sneak up and gut you sure doesn't translate to the big screen as 'heroism' ... but it is. Who wants to see a guy cower in the weeds all night and disconnect the field phone because he doesn't want it to make noise? Loneliness isn't 'heroic' ... and not blowing your own head off because your wife hasn't written in 2-3 weeks doesn't get the audience on their feet. There is no audience for the real thing ... or much support either. It's "whiney" and it feels demeaning. Not heroic. (But it is.)

But when the guy gets up and puts his boots on (after shaking out the scorpions) for another day of stupid, Mickey Mouse, bullshit drudgery ... after doing all the stuff I mentioned ... that's heroic. Doing it because ... if you don't then someone else would have to ... while hoping and praying that the "good people" of the United States, the people to whom you're in service, will wake up and take control of their own government. That's heroic.

But there's no audience for that. It's lonely.

That's why EVERYONE should serve, imho.
It's the only way to learn. Not a movie.

Yes, I know... it wouldn't be the same as the experience.

But... you are so clear, that I can't help but believe that at least a few would be awakened by your words.

And, of course, you know that I agree with you completely about the draft. It's essential.

"It's the act of serving honorably itself that's worthy of respect ..."

Very well put--you are a great addition to DU!

:patriot:

... to talk to AP high school students in a course on American History and Civics, along with a couple of other Viet Nam vets. It was rewarding - and difficult. The natural human inclination is to seek approval - some validation from others, even high school students. The worst possible thing I could do (imho) is paint myself (and other Viet Nam veterans) as some sort of 'hero' (or even a heroic 'victim') for living through that shit. It conveys the opposite of the truth, imho. It's the context. It's the idea that there's an audience for the 'heroism.' It's the idea that, at the end of it, the 'hero' takes a curtain call or gets a ticker-tape parade or that he's on some movie screen with people in awe of him. It's actually the opposite. Nobody wants to hear it. Even if they do, as I said, people spend less time and attention on it in a year than they spend flushing a toilet in any week. (The real validation would come after leaving the classroom and, alone with them, the other Viet Nam veterans would say something like "you came far closer than I could - do you think they get it?" It's a really difficult line to cross.)

A person can't 'serve' for thanks. 'Service,' like any virtuous act, MUST be its own reward. When we seek, or even accept, any other reward it stops being virtuous. It's a hard lesson. That's also why it must be universal, imho. (At the same time, people who serve should NEVER be betrayed or demeaned due to their service. That's appalling. That dishonors EVERYONE.)

of the rest of the nation:

"A person can't 'serve' for thanks. 'Service,' like any virtuous act, MUST be its own reward. When we seek, or even accept, any other reward it stops being virtuous. It's a hard lesson."

Beautiful! It's too bad you're not "famous" outside of DU, because this is a great quotation, and deserves to be collected with the rest of the famous sayings. :hi:

Actually, it's something that's relatively easy to say, but ... I'm not so sure how many, and that includes me, really *get* it.

I know that, mostly because I've received so much criticism and negativity, that I often want acknowledgement. Not thanks, per se, but acknowledgement that there is a *good* side to me as well as the devlish. :evilgrin:

Seeking balance is important. This reminds me of what my hometown pastor said to me over Christmas... he told me that he was deeply affected by a black woman telling him years ago, when the discussion was about being "selfless", that that is a white male thing in a lot of ways. Because one must first *HAVE* a self, in order to be selfless. That's harder to come by for those of us not of the white male persuasion. sigh... I guess it's something that I will be trying to sort out the rest of my life. It helps to have this kind of discussion!

As for being betrayed or demeaned--ABSOLUTELY!! And I think that's why so many of us find those yellow ribbon stickers irritating.

So...here's the question about that.... If one should serve for the sake of serving, and not to be thanked, how do you feel about Vietnam Vets wanting to be welcomed back? I think it's such a small acknowledgement that I can extend. Last year I was at a dance at an Indian Pueblo and met an elder who had served both in Korea and Vietnam. As we talked more, he said that it bothered him that they weren't welcomed back from Vietnam the same as they were from Korea. I told him that I couldn't speak for others, but I knew that the group of protestors I was with had wanted to go to the airport to great the incoming vets, because we were so glad they were back, but it wasn't allowed.

If you don't mind, I'd like your thoughts on that.

Thanks! :patriot:

on Iraq really *get* to me. It's a bit upseting, especially since I still have amigos over there...

is not advocating the overthrow of the Government. The US Constitution is the government and advocating for it's protection and re-instatement is certainly not TREASON...

:shrug:

The boys like to incite people to engage in a conspiracy. Don't let anyone lure you into one.

3. (Law) An agreement, manifesting itself in words or deeds,
by which two or more persons confederate to do an unlawful
act, or to use unlawful to do an act which is lawful;
confederacy.

how would my state Constitution's (NH) "Right to Revolution" effect this?

it states:



Even our nation's own Declaration of Independence says :



Despotism from Houghton Mifflin:
despotism (des-puh-tiz-uhm)

Unlimited political rule by one person.

# The term usually suggests unscrupulous rule, or tyranny.



Mr.bush's signing statements, unchecked power, and statements regarding "the Surge" seem to fit the bill.

Thoughts?

There are over 300,000,000 people in this country, over 200,000,000 of whom are voting adult citizens.

Yelling at the TV is not a "means of redress."
Whining to a spouse is not a "means of redress."
I doubt even posting on DU could be regarded as an 'effectual' "means of redress."
At most, less than 5% have marched in protest.
"Let George do it" is NOT a "means of redress."

And what's absolutely damned certain is that calling from the comfort of one's bedroom or den upon people in military service to mutiny or desert is NOT a "means of redress."

That's cowardice! That's an abysmal abandonment of a citiizen's OWN duty!

I have, on a number of occasions, posted my strong opinion that We The People ALWAYS have the option of revolution, and that this option must NEVER be forsworn or abandoned. I have noted that elections and the Constitutional provisions for impeachment are "slow-motion revolution." Abandoning either is pure and unadulterated idiocy.

There has never been nor will there ever be any governance that can be kept 'honest' without looking over it's shoulder at the People and rightfully fearing their revolution.

I advocate voting. I advocate protest. I advocate non-violent civil disobedience. MASSIVELY.
I will NEVER advocate the abject cowardice of asking more from those in military service when I'm not, alongside thousands of others, risking life and limb myself daily!! NEVER!

thank you for your reply- I'm not sure I completely agree on the issue of mutiny or deserting the military- I support any soldiers decision to refuse to fight in this war based on lies.

However, the apathy, complaisance or inability of others to join me(I'm not able-bodied but have managed to drag myself there) and my family in the vigils we have attended, the protests we've participated in, votes cast- meetings attended, letters written, phone calls made, discussions and fact-sheets shared among the public shouldn't neutralize the value of those of us who are awake and aware.

I guess I don't understand what your post was addressing. Is someone saying that the soldiers should lay down their arms?

I honestly admit that I tend to have a problem grasping the meat of what others are trying to say- and voicing my own perspective.

I think we are on the 'same-page'. But I could be wrong.

peace-
blu

(If you and I can't get the public to "Massively" protest this twisted administration, are we to perish because of their apathy- or unwillingness/inability to stand among us? Are we to support this governments policies albeit indirectly through our tax dollars? I don't want to financially support Guantanamo or any of bush's secret detention camps- I don't want to support many of the immoral and illegal covert operations he is authorizing- either financially or by default. What can you and I do to stop this?)

I often wonder what our Founders would think of us now.

(They probably think... "Why did we bother?")

I've seen this in many different aspects. When it comes to fighting against local injustice, I can walk in the shoes of others, and understand why some are fearful. I really can understand it.

But, damn it!, living our lives in fear just isn't life.

I have come to believe that a big part of the problem is our damned "rugged individualism". It serves to keep us seperated, and seperated people lack the collective strength to overcome the dangers, and hence, the fears.

That's why that whistleblowers' group is soooo important!

But I digress..... :evilgrin:

Me and mine appreciate this thread very much.

:thumbsup:

has operated outsides the confines of our constitution and Bill of Rights and outed an intelligence officer in service of this country. Where does all that lie?

Sometimes, as many as 100,000 at a time. Sometimes, while I was still in the military.

Not that I would ever dream of advocating the overthrow of the government (at least not by violence), be in the least insubordinate to the knuckle-dragging NCO's or splendid officers. (Does hanging around the PX and waiting for one of them to strut out with both arms full of groceries and whipping out a snappy salute count? - Amazing how many of those geniuses spent time picking up groceries.)

Aux les Barricades! So, sue me.

Wasn't in the military, but...

:hi:

We can not apply for clearance together... :rofl:

Hoover's FBI sure was "tuned in" too. Do you think today's FBI is any better?

:shrug:

It was almost laughable. Some crew-cut kid with button-down collars and love beads. He was very busy, and feeling very brave, going from demonstrator to demonstrator. But, the guys in suits with the long range lenses seemed a lot more serious..especially when we flipped them off.

They sure did like to coalesce around the guys who were obviously vets..I guess they figured that we were all berserkers out to try our "skills" even though no small number of them were lacking limbs from Vietnam.

:hi: :thumbsup: :patriot:

not one that can use it in reference to its citizens it would seem. It's not a working constitution.

I have tried explaining why I cannot disobey my orders at this time at least ten times........ People don't get it, as long as there is nothing overruling the war (such as the supreme court) I am bound to follow orders.......

It's so incredibly frustrating to be told I'm a mindless drone for simply following my oath........

It's tragic that people don't comprehend the word 'service,' let alone 'nation.'

:patriot:

What happens when one branch of government opposes and oppresses the others? Is it treason or sedition when the other branches oppose, block, and contravene orders issued by the President? What about removal from power - is impeachment the only lawful way to protect the Constitution from the tyranny of an Executive gone mad?

No, divided government is exactly what the Founders intended as a check and balance on the excesses of any one branch. The Unitary Executive doctrine was a declaration of war against the Constitutional system of co-equal branches, and having declared insurrection, it is only right and proper for the other branches and the People, along with the military, to put down that insurrection of the Executive by force, if necessary, and arrest the rebels, restoring the Constitution.

Indeed, under the circumstances of an Executive at war with the rest of the government and the People, it is the duty of the military and the People to suppress the insurrection.

what side the military would take during that other Constitutional crisis.

I believe it was the Marine Chief who gave the best answer... The military will protect the Constitution.

The congress did not get it, and I fear they would not get it today.

We have not crossed the point of no return when the military will have to choose sides. The beauty of the system is that soldiers stand IN FRONT of the Constitution (not unique to the US by the way), not behind it. they take an oath to defend it against enemies both foreign and domestic. This means that in case of civil war the army can be used to pursue those who go for civil war... why Confederate troops had to swear an oath of allegiance before they were let go in 1865

But we have not crossed that point since then where the army actually has a role in the territory of the US.

If the President decides to declare himself dictator (as was feared Nixon would do and many of us fear Bush will do) then the military will cross that magic point, since at that point the President would be taking extra Constitutional measures and dissolving the Congress, effectively taking the power away from one branch

Don't misunderstand me, we are quickly moving into a full fledged Constitutional Crisis and any troop or officer who understands the oath will tell you, they will defend the constitution... read this post... some of what they mean is exactly here.

But here is the big caveat, the President is still the CIC, and the military is subservient to civilian control.

D'oh! :silly:

Impeachment is the MOST underused part of the Constitution, imho. If I had my druthers, we'd see it far more often. It should NEVER be "off the table." Never.

its impossible to get that point across to those that have not served.

and again thank you for your service

And trust me, I know... head meet brick wall, will be less painful

:patriot:

and it is my job to get your six... trust me my congress criters probably groan since I make sure I send plenty of email and other conrrespondence