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Considering the Iraqi Tragedy, I Still Harbor Resentment to Dems That Supported the IWR.

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David Zephyr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-17-07 08:46 PM
Original message
Considering the Iraqi Tragedy, I Still Harbor Resentment to Dems That Supported the IWR.
I'm sorry, but I just can't let it go.

Too many Democrats in the U.S. Senate and the House of Representatives voted for the Iraqi War Resolution while others bravely voted against it. Looking at the absolutely tragic consequences of that critical vote empowering George W. Bush with that resolution, one which he claims even grants him near dictatorial powers, I must honestly confess that I am still put off by those in my Party who should have done the right thing.

Here in California, my two Senators went different ways: Barbara Boxer voting against the resolution while Dianne Feinstein voted for it. I am as proud of Boxer today as I am still ashamed of Feinstein.

Why this tonight?

Because some of the very people who voted for the IWR are either declared or near-declared candidates for the Democratic Party's nomination for President of the United States.

I will not be easy on those in my Party who seek the highest office in the land during the primary season if they voted to empower Bush for the folly he has created in Iraq. How could I?

Six hundred thousand Iraqi civilians dead. Three thousand American soldiers and Marines dead. Tens of thousands of our troops wounded, many permanently. Our national reputation is ruined. Our treasury is depleted. And we are about to lose Afghanistan to the very people who attacked us on September 11th, 2001.

I hope that some of you will also consider this as well.

Voting for the IWR as a Democrat has cost our precious country too much.

I can't let it go.

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ClassWarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-17-07 08:51 PM
Response to Original message
1. Understandable...
...but don't let that get in the way of making it right as best we can.

NGU.


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ClassWarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-17-07 08:53 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. Plus, as Progessives, I think we understand better than most...
...that no one is beyond redemption.

NGU.


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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-17-07 08:51 PM
Response to Original message
2. kudos-- I feel the same way-- never forget that failure of leadership....
Edited on Wed Jan-17-07 08:52 PM by mike_c
I'll rejoice when DiFi is finally replaced, preferably by a real liberal, but replaced nonetheless. She betrayed us. Everyone who voted for the IWR betrayed their leadership trust IMO. I will NEVER vote for any of them.
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4dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-17-07 08:51 PM
Response to Original message
3. Just remember
Edited on Wed Jan-17-07 08:52 PM by 4dsc
although they voted for the IWR, AWOLbush is violation of the requirements set forth in the resolution.. So don't blame democrat's as there were stipulations the pResident chimp didn't live up to.. Let's place blame where is belongs..
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-17-07 08:54 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. if you really want to put blame where it belongs...
...stop propagating that old canard. Bush didn't violate anything. The IWR gave him a complete blank check for war against Iraq, and everyone who voted for it knew exactly what they were voting for, even if they misunderstood the reasons. The language of the IWR is explicit. It was full and unconditional authorization for war.
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Raster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-17-07 09:22 PM
Response to Reply #7
19. it was a full authorization of war with plenty of play in the rope. I do not believe for one
minute ANYONE IN CONGRESS actually believed the bushit about Iraq. Please. Saddam was toast the day dumbya laid his hand on the Bible and said "I do." Big Oil and Big Military had begun dividing the spoils even before the first American soldier touched down on Iraqi soil. No one gets to claim ignorance.
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flashlighter Donating Member (246 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-17-07 08:53 PM
Response to Original message
4. I won't be voting for anyone who voted for the IRW
regardless of what they say now.
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roody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-17-07 10:33 PM
Response to Reply #4
34. I will not either. Thank you.
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-17-07 08:53 PM
Response to Original message
6. It's hard not to...no matter how many tell us to "forget and Move On."
Reminds me of what they told us after "Selection 2000." Forget and Move On. Maybe I'm curmudgeonly...but I don't see how one can Move On unless One Remembers One's MISTAKES and LEARNS from them.

Maybe I'm just "old fashioned" from another time...but I think that maybe those of us from "another time" really need to SPEAK OUT! :shrug:

It ain't easy, though.
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Xipe Totec Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-17-07 08:56 PM
Response to Original message
8. How do you feel about the majority of Americans that
supported the IWR back then?

The same Americans who would have dumped the Democratic representatives that voted against IWR?

What happened to that majority? Where are THEY hiding?


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illinoisprogressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-17-07 08:59 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. I never supported it. I remember when the drums for war started and
felt a sick lump in my stomach. it was early when they just started the drumming. I remember the feeling I had. it never left me. I knew this was not right.
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Xipe Totec Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-17-07 09:06 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. I didn't either
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=2624110&mesg_id=2624296

I just want to know where those other cowardly bastards are hiding, now that the war has become "unfashionable".

Our Democratic leadership did what they had to do to maintain what little power and influence we had while the Republicans were in power and controlled the wording, timing, content, and debate of this resolution. They did the best they could short of political suicide. I do not begrudge them that awful choice.

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David Zephyr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-17-07 09:13 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. Putting a political career over the lives of our troops is a shitty thing.
A great many of Democrats voted against the IWR when it might have been, as you say, "political suicide". Prioritizing a political career over the lives of our soldiers and Marines is pathetic and does not get a pass from me.

In fact, only when Democrats began to stand up to Bush, to challenge him openly, did Americans begin to respond favorably to them. The days of the appeasement of Dick Gephardt and Tom Daschle are over. They went along afraid of committing "political suicide" and are no longer in office. Consider that.
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Xipe Totec Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-17-07 09:21 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. I have considered it
Consider the alternative; the Republicans would have gained an overwhelming majority in 2004, and would still have a majority today. Who wins in that case? We certainly don't.

Do our political representatives represent us or not? If they do represent us, how can we point a finger at them for voting the way WE, the American public, wanted them to vote?

Damned if they do, damned if they don't; That's just hypocritical.

WE, the American public, are accountable for this disaster. WE told our representatives to represent us.


And they did.



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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-17-07 10:40 PM
Response to Reply #8
38. no one who voted against the IWR ever suffered ANY consequences....
Edited on Wed Jan-17-07 10:40 PM by mike_c
That is another myth. In fact, a bunch of democrats and one independent DID vote against the IWR. Not one of them has ever suffered any political consequences for their courageous vote. Not one.
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Xipe Totec Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-18-07 06:13 AM
Response to Reply #38
70. Ask yourself why that was so
You'll find the answer in their constituencies. Democrats who voted against the IWR, did so with the consent and support of their local voters.

That is why they suffered no political consequences.
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illinoisprogressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-17-07 08:57 PM
Response to Original message
9. One senator voted against it and one, who wasn't in the senate yet,
made a major speech at a rally against the war.
I am proud of both. they did not cave to republican pressure and war fever.
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David Zephyr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-17-07 09:07 PM
Response to Reply #9
14. And that would your current two Senators Durbin & Obama from Illinois.
Durbin was one of five Democrats on the Senate Intelligence Committee who eventually voted against the IWR. He was not afraid of being called unpatriotic. He did the right thing.

And Obama, although not in the Senate, clearly spoke out against the War when it was not "wise" to do so.

And I am proud of them both, too. They can both hold their heads very high considering how the War in Iraq turned out.
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Jcrowley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-17-07 09:00 PM
Response to Original message
11. Here is something noone has ever been able explain to me
Edited on Wed Jan-17-07 09:00 PM by Jcrowley
Now the going line is that The Dems were lied to and would not have voted for this if they knew the truth. I simply don't believe this.

Now one aspect of this which makes it all so farcical and disingenuous is that all one had to do was tune into Dem Now! each morning to be able to have the information necessary to assess the falsity of the Bushcons ostensible reasons for invading Iraq. And of course one could have easily done a bit of research on the web to see it was all bullshit. And further any responsible politician would have looked into the history of the situation. But of course they didn't need to, they knew all of this.

But more than this, and the thing which noone has ever explained to me, is the fact that these Dems who claim they never would have voted for the IWR if they knew then what they knew now have been around DC for years. They know who is who and who has a track record of corruption and deceit. So all of the sudden, knowing all they know about the history of Cheney, Wolfowitz, Rumsfeld and the whole gang, they decide to believe them on this? That proves to me they are extremely foolish and naive or they are lying. I lean towards the latter.
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magellan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-18-07 01:58 AM
Response to Reply #11
68. I used to fly that flag
"They didn't know, Bush** hid the facts from them."

It became clear to me a while after finding DU two years ago that that's just not true. Bush** did hide facts, yet some of the Dems still managed to find enough of them to vote against the IWR. Whether the rest were just too lazy to investigate for themselves or had ulterior motives for voting as they did I don't know...but neither excuse is anything to commend the Dems in question.

I voted for Kerry in '04 but he and the other Dems who voted for the IWR will never get my vote now.
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generaldemocrat Donating Member (227 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-17-07 09:05 PM
Response to Original message
12. I will only forgive the Dems who voted for the IWR.....
if those same Dems start prosecuting some of these neocons who pushed for this war. I'm talking about hauling Perle, Wolfowitz, Feith, Rumsfeld, etc before Congress, exposing their deceptions, and sentencing some of them to prison if criminal charges can be legitimated.

If the IWR Dems do this (I doubt they will) I would forgive them.
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David Zephyr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-17-07 09:15 PM
Response to Reply #12
17. That would make a fine atonement. I agree.
:thumbsup:
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-17-07 09:37 PM
Response to Reply #12
23. Good point...Forgiveness can come with Atonement...
The true test of "forgiveness" is to "forgive" without asking for "atonement."

Sadly...I've not evolved that high, yet. I was trying to work on it until the Bush Crime Family's Evil Spawn just ripped alot of forgiveness out of my heart. They are good at that...

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magellan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-18-07 01:59 AM
Response to Reply #12
69. Indeed.
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geek tragedy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-17-07 09:11 PM
Response to Original message
15. If they voted for it, I want to know what they've learned
and why they don't think like they did back then.

"Bush fooled me" ain't gonna cut it.
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Canuckistanian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-17-07 09:23 PM
Response to Original message
20. It really shows you who has a conscience and who doesn't
Edwards. That's who I'm talking about. And Kerry and Hillary and Levin and Biden. Lieberman was predictable, even back then.

They all should have known that the IWR was a fraud and a red herring. Especially coming from the Bushco kleptocracy.

And if they did it solely in the name of political expediency, because it was the "right thing to do at the time", then shame on them.

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generaldemocrat Donating Member (227 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-17-07 09:59 PM
Response to Reply #20
26. Levin voted against IWR. n/t
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Canuckistanian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-17-07 10:11 PM
Response to Reply #26
30. I stand corrected
Levin proposed an amendment to the IWR to have Bush report back to Congress before hostilities, but the amendment was defeated.
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The Rock2111 Donating Member (36 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-17-07 09:24 PM
Response to Original message
21. Further dissapointment!
A concept that one should be warming up to.
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Laurab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-18-07 01:03 AM
Response to Reply #21
66. Please expound?
What "dissapointment" are you referring to, exactly, and what should "one" be warming up to?

Welcome to DU, enjoy your visit.
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-17-07 09:28 PM
Response to Original message
22. "supported the war" - as a last resort given the possibility of a "nukular program/mushroom cloud."
Please add that caveat, you'll feel better. ;)
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Jacobin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-17-07 09:41 PM
Response to Original message
24. Me, too. Big Time. Now they'll have to clean up his mess
thats their reward
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Tatiana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-17-07 09:57 PM
Response to Original message
25. They knew the consequences. They knew what would happen. They voted for it anyway.
Resolution sharply divides Democrats

The Senate vote sharply divided Democrats, with 29 voting for the measure and 21 against. All Republicans except Sen. Lincoln Chafee of Rhode Island voted for passage.

Ahead of the vote, Senate Majority Leader Tom Daschle announced Thursday morning he would support Bush on Iraq, saying it is important for the country "to speak with one voice at this critical moment."

Daschle, D-South Dakota, said the threat of Iraq's weapons programs "may not be imminent. But it is real. It is growing. And it cannot be ignored." However, he urged Bush to move "in a way that avoids making a dangerous situation even worse."

Daschle had expressed reservations about a possible U.S. attack on Iraq, and he was not part of an agreement between the White House and other congressional leaders framing the resolution last week.

Sen. Robert Byrd, D-West Virginia, attempted Thursday to mount a filibuster against the resolution but was cut off on a 75 to 25 vote.

Byrd had argued the resolution amounted to a "blank check" for the White House.


Sen. Bob Graham of Florida was one of 21 Senate Democrats voting against the resolution.

"This is the Tonkin Gulf resolution all over again," Byrd said. "Let us stop, look and listen. Let us not give this president or any president unchecked power. Remember the Constitution."

But Sen. John McCain, R-Arizona, said the United States needs to move before Saddam can develop a more advanced arsenal.

"Giving peace a chance only gives Saddam Hussein more time to prepare for war on his terms, at a time of his choosing, in pursuit of ambitions that will only grow as his power to achieve them grows," McCain said.

<snip>

"I believe we have an obligation to protect the United States by preventing him from getting these weapons and either using them himself or passing them or their components on to terrorists who share his destructive intent," said Gephardt, who helped draft the measure.

http://archives.cnn.com/2002/ALLPOLITICS/10/11/iraq.us/

If Democrats had stood up and told Bush no, we wouldn't be in this mess right now. I'm sorry, I can't forget either - nor do I want to. If you had listened to Byrd's impassioned speech on the floor -- he was nearly in TEARS, shaking with anger over what they were about to do in the Senate. I could only shake my head as I heard the final tally. 77-23. They voted for political clout instead of people. Not just American people (though they've got the blood of over 3,000 American lives on their hands as well), but the Iraqi people as well. Daschle bowed out with his tail between his legs (deservedly). Gep (along with his presidential asipirations) is gone.

But we've got Biden, Clinton, Daschle, Edwards, Kerry, Reid, Schumer - the supposed LEADERS in our party; the very people who could have mustered the votes to sustain a filibuster, caving in to the demands of a tyrant.

Here are my real heros, the true Congressional patriots who cared more about doing the right thing, who cared more about the fiber of this country than political aspirations:

Akaka (D-HI)
Bingaman (D-NM)
Boxer (D-CA)
Byrd (D-WV)
Chafee (R-RI)
Conrad (D-ND)
Corzine (D-NJ)
Dayton (D-MN)
Durbin (D-IL)
Feingold (D-WI)
Graham (D-FL)
Inouye (D-HI)
Jeffords (I-VT)
Kennedy (D-MA)
Leahy (D-VT)
Levin (D-MI)
Mikulski (D-MD)
Murray (D-WA)
Reed (D-RI)
Sarbanes (D-MD)
Stabenow (D-MI)
Wellstone (D-MN)
Wyden (D-OR)

The only thing that any of those Senators who voted for IWR could do to atone for their votes is make sure every corrupt figure in the current administration faces justice. Of course, they might be too busy forming exploratory committees to do their duty and exercise some oversight into the tyrant's administration.
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PassingFair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-17-07 10:14 PM
Response to Reply #25
32. I had to pull my car over that day as the roll was read.
I cried.

The betrayal still smarts.

Edwards has at least acknowledged his ERROR.

Many others still spin, spin, spin.
They made what they thought was a safe,
cynical vote.

By the next cycle, the majority of SITTING
Senators were NO voters.

Some "SAFE" vote.

Over 3,000 dead americans.

Over 30,000 wounded americans.

Up to 650,000 dead iraqis.

No, no free passes on THAT vote.

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SaveElmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-17-07 10:44 PM
Response to Reply #25
40. Do you believe this man...
Edited on Wed Jan-17-07 10:46 PM by SaveElmer



Was voting for purely political reasons?

Do you believe that he voted Yes for the IWR knowing as you say, that it would result in the deaths of thousands of American soldier?
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Tatiana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-17-07 11:17 PM
Response to Reply #40
48. I believe THAT man believed the President. Which was stupid.
During his six years as a United States senator from the conservative state of Georgia, Max Cleland was known as a moderate Democrat. He drew the wrath of liberals in 2001 when he broke ranks with Democrats and voted for President Bush's tax cuts, and last year he backed the resolution authorizing Bush to wage war with Iraq (though on that vote, at least, he was joined by some liberals).

Today, though, Cleland has emerged as one of the president's harshest critics, especially about the war he voted to authorize. Today, he says, it's a move he deeply regrets, as he scans the headlines from Baghdad. "I feel like I have been duped, I don't mind telling you," Cleland admits. "Everybody in the administration was selling this used car. The problem is all the wheels have fallen off the car and we've got a lemon."

Now, outspoken and blunt, he's furious about the White House's handling of the war with Iraq, which he calls a disastrous "war of choice." And he mocks the administration's claims that Saddam Hussein and Osama bin Laden were allies. "They had a plan to go to war , and when 9/11 happened that's what they did; they went to war."

http://dir.salon.com/story/news/feature/2003/11/21/cleland/index.html

Cleland has admitted his error, and more than admitting his error he took action serving as part of the 9/11 Commission. I give him props for that. But he still should have known better. More than anything, as a Senator, by voting "yes," he was voting to ABDICATE HIS DUTY as a member of Congress. And yes, I think Cleland was thinking about how his vote would play in his hometown conservative state of Georgia.
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SaveElmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-17-07 11:23 PM
Response to Reply #48
51. And I guess than...
Edited on Wed Jan-17-07 11:24 PM by SaveElmer
That virtually every IWR opponent was lying when they said t hey believed Iraq had WMD's?

And what you are telling me then is...that Max Cleland, a man who had three limbs blown off in Vietnam had become so cowardly that he voted for a Resolution which hew knew would cause thousands of soldiers to end up like him?

BTW: this statement by Cleland...

"I feel like I have been duped, I don't mind telling you," Cleland admits. "Everybody in the administration was selling this used car. The problem is all the wheels have fallen off the car and we've got a lemon."


Is right on and reflects the truth of the situation!

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Tatiana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-17-07 11:35 PM
Response to Reply #51
52. And if we take that statement (and premise) a little further....
If those voting for IWR would have taken the vehicle to a mechanic (like Russ Feingold did), they would have come to the conclusion that it was a lemon.

I don't care how many limbs Cleland lost, quite frankly. He's still alive. Hundreds of thousands of people are DEAD. How did Feingold and Cleland get the same info and vote differently?
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SaveElmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-17-07 11:44 PM
Response to Reply #52
55. Very simply...
The issue was not a black and white one...it is very easy for two people to look at the same evidence, and with the same seriousness of purpose, come to different conclusions about what to do...

Happens all the time...

Doesn't mean those that turned out to have been wrong were stupid, or willfull, or cowards, or were playing politics...its because with issues as complex as that one, events don't always play out like you expect them too..

Hopefully you learn from the outcome and apply that lessen the next time a similar situation arises...I would argue that every Democrat (except Joe Lieberman who I just do not understand), and several Republicans have learned that lessen...


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Pastiche423 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-17-07 10:05 PM
Response to Original message
27. I'm w/you 100%, David
I voted for two in 2004 and it made me physically sick. That won't happen again.

How anyone now could still support them after seeing the shock, awe, blood and gore in Iraq is far beyond my comprehension.

Why should any of them that voted for IWR get any breaks? How will they develop backbones if we keep giving them breaks? When will they truly represent their constituents if we keep giving them breaks?

I'm all out of breaks.
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janx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-17-07 10:07 PM
Response to Original message
28. I'm with you, David.
I can't vote for anyone who was so selfish or so stupid as to allow this to happen.
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freefall Donating Member (617 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-17-07 10:07 PM
Response to Original message
29. Weather permitting I am going to a Dodd Town Hall meeting in Dover, NH
on Saturday. He is one of the Dems who voted for the IWR and has now announced that he is running for President. I am trying to formulate a question about why he voted for the IWR and what he will do to get the troops home and keep us out of Iran. I don't know if he's ever publicly admitted that the vote was a mistake and apologized. At least Edwards has done that.

Peace,

freefall
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-17-07 10:13 PM
Response to Reply #29
31. Please post if he answers. Dodd is charming has an authoritative personality
...but he's DLC. We have to watch and see how he does. He has some baggage...but the more that run the better for our party. Except if they are running will they miss votes needed for the Dems in the Senate when they are away. Might be another question to ask him. Will he be able to make all his votes if he runs next year when we have crucial votes and investigations coming forward against Bush. :shrug:
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freefall Donating Member (617 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-17-07 10:34 PM
Response to Reply #31
36. Thanks for the suggestion, KoKo01. That's an excellent point. There
are going to be many close votes and we are going to need every Dem we can get in Washington doing his/her job. We should be keeping track of who misses what votes and publicizing the info. I will post about the meeting and my impressions whether I ask a question or not.

Peace,

freefall
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SaveElmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-17-07 10:14 PM
Response to Original message
33. I harbor no resentment at all...
One man and his cronies in the administration are responsible for this mess...and they reside at 1600 Pennsylvania Ave.

You say that only those that voted No were brave...implying I imagine that the 28 that voted Yes are cowards?
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BayCityProgressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-17-07 10:34 PM
Response to Reply #33
35. no one
man isn't responsible for this. Like it or not, our party deserves MUCH blame. Not only for helping to start the war but for their silence in the aftermath. I will vote for no one who voted for this war. They are either too stupid, too calculating, or too bought out to represent me. They apparently did not know what 2/3 of dems in congress, the majority of dem voters, foreign govs, and the CIA knew. That this war was wrong.
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SaveElmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-17-07 10:38 PM
Response to Reply #35
37. Have you read the floor statements...
Of IWR opponents in th U.S. Senate...lets take a quick look at what they knew...here are a few choice samples


There is no question that Saddam Hussein is ignoring the will of the United Nations and that he has not honored the agreements he made following the Gulf War. Saddam Hussein is a dangerous force in the world.” -Kent Conrad

“Saddam Hussein’s regime has chemical and biological weapons and is trying to get nuclear capability.” -Bob Graham

“Saddam Hussein’s desire to obtain weapons of mass destruction is of grave concern.” -Jim Jeffords

“…I commend President Bush for taking his case against Iraq to the American people…and I agree with the President that Saddam is a despicable tyrant who must be disarmed.” -Ted Kennedy

Iraq has grim and ghoulish weapons to carry out its evil plans. As part of the Gulf War cease-fire agreement, Saddam Hussein committed to destroying its chemical and biological and nuclear weapons programs…instead, Saddam Hussein is trying to add nuclear weapons to an arsenal that already includes chemical and biological weapons and ballistic missiles.” -Barbara Mikulski

Saddam must give arms inspectors unfettered access. And, if he does not comply with this new U.N. resolution there will be consequences, including the use of appropriate military force.” -Paul Wellstone

Wellstone was advocating a unified approach with the U.N. which is why he opposed the IWR…

“With regard to Iraq, I agree, Iraq presents a genuine threat, especially in the form of weapons of mass destruction, chemical, biological, and potentially nuclear weapons. I agree that Saddam Hussein is exceptionally dangerous and brutal, if not uniquely so, as the President argues. And I support the concept of regime change.” -Russ Feingold


Fact is the argument in Congress was not over whether Iraq had WMD's...all believed they had them or were trying to acquire them...the debate was over the solution to that problem...

It was George Bush that short circuited the inspections that had begun to work again under the threat of military attack...


And again I ask, if only those that voted no are considered brave, do you consider the Yes votes to be cowards?

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The Rock2111 Donating Member (36 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-17-07 11:15 PM
Response to Reply #37
46. Thanks for the clarity. One may also remember that pesky
little UN resolution Saddam refused to comply with. Further, it appeared little debate existed in Congress about whether to invade Iraq or not.
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freefall Donating Member (617 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-17-07 10:56 PM
Response to Reply #33
41. Oh, I don't know that I'd call them cowards, more like quislings.
They betrayed the trust of the American people for political expedience. As I asked my own two Senators, "If I knew there were no weapons of mass destruction and I don't have a staff of researchers working for me, how come you didn't know? Why other than because you thought it was to your political advantage did you vote for this illegal war?" I'm with David; I can't forgive and forget. Not one career of those who voted "Yes" was worth a single life of an American soldier or an Iraqi. I CAN forgive those who have admitted their mistake and are fighting to rectify the situation but for the rest of them I have nothing but contempt.

Peace,

freefall
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SaveElmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-17-07 10:58 PM
Response to Reply #41
42. So were IWR opponents lying then...
When virtually to a person said they believed Iraq had WMD's?

Do you think Max Cleland, John Kerry and Tom Harkin were simply voting for political expediency?

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freefall Donating Member (617 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-17-07 11:07 PM
Response to Reply #42
43. They may have believed what they said but they should have known better.
As for Cleland, Kerry, Harkin and others, yes I do believe they voted for political expedience and I believe they have lived to regret it, especially Cleland.
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SaveElmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-17-07 11:09 PM
Response to Reply #43
44. Do you have any evidence...
For either assertion?

And just to be clear, you believe Max Cleland knowlingly voted for a Resolution he knew would result in the deaths of thousands of American soldiers...?
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freefall Donating Member (617 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-17-07 11:16 PM
Response to Reply #44
47. I believe Max Cleland gambled and lost. And for the record I loved
Max Cleland before the vote and I still love him but I believe he made a terrible mistake that he will regret as long as he lives. I believe he voted the way he did because he thought he had to in order to win his election and it didn't help.
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SaveElmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-17-07 11:20 PM
Response to Reply #47
50. Again...
Do you have any evidence to back up your assertion that a man who had three limbs blown off in Vietnam had suddenly grown so cowardly that he had to vote for something he knew would result in thousands of soldiers ending up like him?

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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-17-07 11:51 PM
Response to Reply #50
58. I just love watching you try to spin your way out of the fact that your candidate
is an unfeeling, calculating, politiwhore that regards her own constituents as too stupid to see what her true goals are. :rofl:
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SaveElmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-18-07 12:08 AM
Response to Reply #58
65. Congratulations...
:applause:
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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-17-07 11:53 PM
Response to Reply #50
59. Dupe
Edited on Wed Jan-17-07 11:54 PM by greyhound1966
Oh the irony...
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Morgana LaFey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-17-07 10:41 PM
Response to Original message
39. IMO it was all done so callously --
just another vote. Just their careers: re-election and presidential aspirations to think about, that's all. Not lives, both US and Iraqi. Not truth. Not war profiteering.

I do know some agonized over the vote, sincerely. But not enough, and not enough of ANY of them came up on the right side of this.

You know, here are clues that even I could see:

1. The UN wasn't asking us to enforce their resolutions, and they sure as hell weren't signing on to our plans in any way.

2. Iraq's neighbors in the region didn't seem at all worried about old Saddam. They were completely sanguine -- and he's shown some proclivity to adventurism and taking over other real estate, so if he'd BEEN any kind of a threat, they'd have been on board in some way.

3. FEW OTHER NATIONS in the world were on board on this, never mind sending troops. And the ones that were had ulterior motives, were bullied and/or bribed into it.

4. Scott Ritter. Why the hell wouldn't they listen to Scott Ritter -- and he's not the only one.

5. Never before in the history of this nation (or probably the world) did so many people protest a war before it had even begun. Millions here in the U.S., in total, and millions around the world as well. Hell, millions around the world protested all together on one day -- unprecendented!! What on earth did they think was going on with all THAT? And if they didn't know about it, then shame on them -- they and their staffs are incompetent -- they should have known. It was their business to know.
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Individualist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-17-07 11:13 PM
Response to Original message
45. The day the IWR was approved,
Edited on Wed Jan-17-07 11:29 PM by notsodumbhillbilly
I said those who voted for it would have the blood of all the dead on their hands. I haven't changed my mind.
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AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-17-07 11:19 PM
Response to Original message
49. I feel your pain.
I stand in firm solidarity with you. It was that moment in time our elected representatives needed to step up and be someone on our behalf, to do the right thing for the wellbeing of America. And they failed us. I'm sorry (and I get pounded pretty good for it here), but I simply do not think any of those that votes 'yes' have the integrity or the wisdom to lead this country. I simply cannot let it go.
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-17-07 11:43 PM
Response to Original message
53. Did you vote for McGovern in 72
if so you voted for a sponser of the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution. I would have great difficulty voting for an unrepented voter for the IWR. But a repentent one gets my vote easily.
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Tatiana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-17-07 11:43 PM
Response to Original message
54. Statement of U.S. Senator Russ Feingold (so how did *he* know?)

Statement of U.S. Senator Russ Feingold on Opposing the Resolution Authorizing the Use of Force Against Iraq
From the Senate Floor

October 9, 2002

Many of us have spent months reviewing the issue of the advisability of invading Iraq in the near future. From hearings and meetings on the process and the very important role of Congress to the difficult questions of substance, including foreign policy and military implications, after my own review and carefully listening to hundreds of Wisconsin citizens in person, I spoke on the floor on Thursday, September 26, and, Mr. President, I indicated my opposition to the original draft use of force authorization by the President, and I also used that opportunity to raise some very important questions, to which I needed answers before supporting a narrower and more responsible resolution.

Now, after many more meetings and reading articles and attending briefings, listening to my colleagues' speeches, and especially listening to the President's speech in Cincinnati on Monday, Mr. President, I still don't believe that the President and the Administration have adequately answered the critical questions. They have not yet met the important burden to persuade Congress and the American people that we should invade Iraq at this time.

Both in terms of the justifications for an invasion and in terms of the mission and the plan for the invasion, Mr. President, the Administration's arguments just don't add up. They don't add up to a coherent basis for a new major war in the middle of our current challenging fight against the terrorism of al Qaeda and related organizations. Therefore, I cannot support the resolution for the use of force before us.

My colleagues, my focus today is on the wisdom of this specific resolution vis-a-vis Iraq, as opposed to discussing the notion of an expanded doctrine of preemption, which the President has articulated on several occasions. However, I associate myself with the concerns eloquently raised by Senator Kennedy and Senator Byrd and others that this could well represent a disturbing change in our overall foreign and military policy. This includes grave concerns about what such a preemption-plus policy will do to our relationship with our allies, to our national security, and to the cause of world peace in so many regions of the world, where such a doctrine could trigger very dangerous actions with really very minimal justification.

Mr. President, I want to be clear about something. None of this is to say that I don't agree with the President on much of what he has said about the fight against terrorism and even what he has said about Iraq. I agree post-9/11, we face, as the President has said, a long and difficult fight against terrorism and we must be very patient and very vigilant and we must be ready to act and make some very serious sacrifices. And with regard to Iraq, I agree that Iraq presents a genuine threat, especially in the form of weapons of mass destruction: chemical, biological and potentially nuclear weapons. I agree that Saddam Hussein is exceptionally dangerous and brutal, if not uniquely so, as the President argues. And I agree, I support the concept of regime change. Saddam Hussein is one of several despots from the international community -- whom the international community should condemn and isolate with the hope of new leadership in those nations. And, yes, I agree, if we do this Iraq invasion, I hope Saddam Hussein will actually be removed from power this time.

And I agree, therefore, Mr. President, we cannot do nothing with regard to Saddam Hussein and Iraq. We must act. We must act with serious purpose and stop the weapons of mass destruction and stop Saddam Hussein. And I agree a return to the inspections regime of the past alone is not a serious, credible policy.

I also believe and agree as important and as preferable as U.N. action and multilateral solutions to this problem are, we cannot give the United Nations the ability to veto our ability to counter this threat to our country. We retain and will always retain the right of self-defense, including, of course, self-defense against weapons of mass destruction. When such a threat requiring self-defense would present itself -- and I am skeptical that that is exactly what we're dealing with here -- then we can, if necessary, act alone, including militarily.

So, Mr. President, these are all areas where I agree with the Administration.

But, Mr. President, I am increasingly troubled by the seemingly shifting justifications for an invasion at this time. My colleagues, I'm not suggesting there has to be only one justification for such a dramatic action. But when the Administration moves back and forth from one argument to another, I think it undercuts the credibility of the case and the belief in its urgency. I believe that this practice of shifting justifications has much to do with the troubling phenomenon of many Americans questioning the Administration's motives in insisting on action at this particular time.

What am I talking about? I'm talking about the spectacle of the President and senior Administration officials citing a purported connection to al Qaeda one day, weapons of mass destruction the next day, Saddam Hussein's treatment of his own people on another day, and then on some days the issue of Kuwaiti prisoners of war.

Mr. President, for some of these, we may well be willing to send some 250,000 Americans in harm's way. For others, frankly, probably not. These litanies of various justifications -- whether the original draft resolution, the new White House resolution, or regrettably throughout the President's speech in Cincinnati -- in my view set the bar for an alternative to a U.S. invasion so high that, Mr. President, I'm afraid it almost locks in -- it almost requires -- a potentially extreme and reckless solution to these problems.

I am especially troubled by these shifting justifications because I and most Americans strongly support the President on the use of force in response to the attacks on September 11, 2001. I voted for Senate Joint Resolution 23, the use of force resolution, to go after al Qaeda and the Taliban and those associated with the tragedies of September 11. And I strongly support military actions pursuant to Senate Joint Resolution 23.

But the relentless attempt to link 9-11 and the issue of Iraq has been disappointing to me for months, culminating in the President's singularly unpersuasive attempt in Cincinnati to interweave 9-11 and Iraq, to make the American people believe that there are no important differences between the perpetrators of 9-11 and Iraq.

Mr. President, I believe it is dangerous for the world, and especially dangerous for us, to take the tragedy of 9-11 and the word "terrorism" and all their powerful emotion and then too easily apply them to many other situations -- situations that surely need our serious attention but are not necessarily, Mr. President, the same as individuals and organizations who have shown a willingness to fly planes into the World Trade Center and into the Pentagon.

Let me say that the President is right that we've got to view the world, the threats and our own national security in a very different light since 9-11. There are shocking new threats. But, Mr. President, it is not helpful to use virtually any strand or extreme rhetoric to suggest that the new threat is the same as other preexisting threats. Mr. President, I think common sense tells us they are not the same and they cannot so easily be lumped together as the President sought to do in Cincinnati.

Mr. President, I've reviewed the intermittent efforts to suggest a connection of 9-11 and Saddam Hussein or suggest the possibility that such a connection has developed since 9-11. Let me be very clear. If in fact there was a connection in planning together for the 9-11 attack by Saddam Hussein or his agents and the perpetrators of 9-11 and al Qaeda, I've already voted for military action. I have no objection.

But if it is not, if this is premised on some case that has supposedly been made with regard to a subsequent coalition between al Qaeda and the Iraqi government, I think the President has got to do better. He's got to do better than the shoddy piecing together of flimsy evidence that contradicts the very briefings we've received by various agencies, Mr. President.

I'm not hearing the same things at the briefings that I'm hearing from the President's top officials. In fact, on March 11 of this year, Vice President Cheney, following a meeting with Tony Blair, raised fears of weapons of mass destruction falling into the hands of terrorists. He said, "We have to be concerned about the potential" -- potential -- "marriage, if you will, between a terrorist organization like al Qaeda and those who hold or are proliferating knowledge about weapons of mass destruction." So in March, it was a potential marriage.

Then the Vice-President said, on September 8, without evidence -- and no evidence has been given since that time -- that there are "credible but unconfirmed" intelligence reports that 9-11 ringleader Mohammed Atta met with an Iraqi intelligence official several months before 9-11. We've seen no proof of that.

And finally then, the Secretary of Defense follows on September 27 of this year and says, "There is bulletproof evidence of Iraqi links to al Qaeda, including the recent presence of senior al Qaeda members in Baghdad." I don't know where this comes from, Mr. President. This so-called potential marriage in March is beginning to sound like a 25th wedding anniversary at this point.

The facts just aren't there, or at least they have not been presented to me in the situations where they should have been presented to me as an elected Member of this body. In other words, the Administration appears to use 9-11 and the language of terrorism and the connection to Iraq too loosely, almost like a bootstrap.

For example, I heard the President say in Cincinnati that Iraq and al Qaeda both regard us as a common enemy. Of course they do. Well, who else are we going to attack in the near future on that basis alone?

Or do we see an attempt to stretch the notion of harboring terrorists? I agree with the President, if any country is actively harboring or assisting the terrorists involved in 9-11, we have to act against them. But I don't think you can bring within the definition of harboring terrorists the simple presence of some al Qaeda members somewhere in Iraq. After all, Mr. President, apparently we have al Qaeda agents active in our country as well. They are present in our nation as well. How can this be a sufficient basis on its own?

Therefore, Mr. President, without a better case for al Qaeda's connection to Saddam Hussein, this proposed invasion must stand on its own merits, not on some notion that those who question this invasion don't thoroughly condemn and want to see the destruction of the perpetrators of 9-11 and similar terrorist attacks on the United States.

An invasion of Iraq must stand on its own, not just because it is different than the fight against the perpetrators of 9-11 but because it may not be consistent with, and may even be harmful to, the top national security issue of this country. And that is the fight against terrorism and the perpetrators of the crimes of 9-11.

In fact, I'm so pleased to see one of the most eloquent spokesmen of this viewpoint here in the Senate chamber, Senator Graham, who has done a terrific job of trying to point out our top priorities in this area. He said, "Our first priority should be the successful completion of the war on terrorism. Today we Americans are more vulnerable to international terrorist organizations than we are to Saddam Hussein."

I ask: Is this war against terrorism going so terribly well when we see the possible explosion of the French tanker in Yemen? When we see the tremendous difficulties in trying to pursue stability in Afghanistan itself? And when we realize that we're not certain at all whether Mr. Osama bin Laden is alive or dead? Will the invasion of Iraq encourage our allies and Islamic friends to help us in the fight against terrorism or just make them extremely nervous?

Mr. President, I had a meeting with a group of African ambassadors the other day in my role as Chairman of the Africa Subcommittee of the Foreign Relations Committee, and they told me that various people were placing bets -- placing bets on what country would be next after Iraq under this new doctrine that the President is putting forward.

Will this idea of invading Iraq at this time, on this case, on these merits, help or hurt cooperation in our fight against terrorism, against the known murderers of Americans who are known to be plotting more of the same?

Mr. President, I'm especially dismayed at the weak response to the potential drain on our military capability and resources in our fight against terrorism if we go forward with this invasion at this time. The Administration likes to quickly say, whenever asked whether we can do this and fight the war against terrorism, they just simply say, "we can do both." There's no proof, there's no real assurance of this. I find these answers glib, at best.

When former Secretary of State Kissinger was asked in this regard, he said, "It is not clear to me what measures that are required in the war against terrorism would be interrupted or weakened by the actions that may be imposed on us if it is not possible to do away with the stockpiles of weapons of mass destruction in Iraq by other means." That's the only explanation the former Secretary of State gave us on this tough question.

But let's look at what the current Secretary of State, Colin Powell, said in response to a similar question. He said, "So the campaign against terrorism is going in full swing. And I don't see why there is a suggestion that somehow, if we had to undertake this mission, it would be at the expense of the campaign against terrorism." That is all he said. Now, that is a pretty weak reassurance, to me, that such an enormous undertaking will not call into question some of our other military efforts and priorities.

What about what we are doing in Bosnia? What about what we are doing in Kosovo? What about all the resources stretching from the Philippines to portions of the former Soviet Union to the Middle East to parts of Africa that are being employed in the fight against terrorism? What about the fact that we are using our National Guard and Reserves many times within our country to protect our own citizens and public -- at public events with regard to the challenge of the fight against terrorism? Mr. President, all of this and an invasion of Iraq, too? I wonder. As mighty as we are, I wonder if we aren't very close to being overextended.

An invasion of Iraq in the next few weeks or months could in fact be very counterproductive. In fact, it could risk our national security.

In any event, I oppose this resolution because of the continuing unanswered questions, including the very important questions about what the mission is here, what the nature of the operation will be, what will happen concerning weapons of mass destruction in Iraq as the attack proceeds and afterward, and what the plan is after the attack is over. In effect, Mr. President, we're being asked to vote on something that is unclear. We don't have answers to these questions. We're being asked to vote on something that is almost unknowable in terms of the information we've been given.

In my judgment, the issue that presents the greatest potential threat to U.S. national security, Iraq's pursuit of weapons of mass destruction, has not been addressed in any comprehensive way by the Administration to date. Of course, I know that we don't need to know all the details, and we don't have to be given all the details, and we shouldn't be given all the details. But we've got to be given some kind of a reasonable explanation. Before we vote on this resolution, we need a credible plan for securing W.M.D. sites and not allowing materials of concern to slip away during some chaotic course of action. I know that's a tall order, but, Mr. President, it's a necessary demand.

As I said, I agree with the Administration when it asserts that returning to the same restricted weapons inspection regime of the recent past is not a credible policy for addressing the W.M.D. problem in Iraq. But, Mr. President, there is nothing credible about the we'll-figure-that-out-later approach that we've heard to date. What if actors competing for power in a post-Hussein world have access to W.M.D.? What if there is chaos in the wake of the regime's fall that provides new opportunities for nonstate actors, including terrorist organizations, to bid on the sinister items tucked away in Iraq?

Some would say those who do not unquestionly support the Administration are failing to provide for our national security. But, Mr. President, I'm sure of this. These issues are critical to that security, and I have yet to get any answers.

Mr. President, we need an honest assessment of the commitment required of America. If the right way to address this threat is through internationally-supported military action in Iraq and Saddam Hussein's regime falls, we will need to take action to ensure stability in Iraq. This could be very costly and time consuming, could involve the occupation -- the occupation, Mr. President, of a Middle Eastern country. Now, this is not a small matter. The American occupation of a Middle Eastern country. Consider the regional implications of that scenario, the unrest in moderate states that calls for action against American interests, the difficulty of bringing stability to Iraq so we can extricate ourselves in the midst of regional turmoil. Mr. President, we need much more information about how we propose to proceed so that we can weigh the costs and benefits to our national security.

In Afghanistan, the government and President Hamid Karzai work under constant threat and instability plagues the country outside of Kabul. Many Afghan people are waiting for concrete indicators that they have a stake in this new Taliban-free future. The task is daunting. Mr. President, we've only just begun that task. What demands might be added in a post-Saddam Iraq?

I do believe that the American people are willing to bear high costs to pursue a policy that makes sense. But right now, after all of the briefings, all of the hearings, and all of the statements, as far as I can tell, the Administration apparently intends to wing it when it comes to the day after or, as others have suggested, the decade after. And I think, Mr. President, that makes no sense at all.

So, Mr. President, I believe that to date the Administration has failed to answer the key questions to justify the invasion of Iraq at this time. Yes, September 11 raises the emotional stakes and raises legitimate new questions. This makes the President's request understandable, but it doesn't make it wise.

I am concerned that the President is pushing us into a mistaken and counterproductive course of action. Instead of this war being crucial on the war on terrorism, I fear it could have the opposite effect.

And so this moment -- in which we are responsible for assessing the threat before us, the appropriate response, and the potential costs and consequences of military action -- this moment is of grave importance. Yet there is something hollow in our efforts. In all of the Administration's public statements, its presentations to Congress, and its exhortations for action, Congress is urged to provide this authority and approve the use of our awesome military power in Iraq without knowing much at all about what we intend to do with it.

We are about to make one of the weightiest decisions of our time within a context of confused justifications and vague proposals. We are urged, Mr. President, to get on board and bring the American people with us, but we don't know where the ship is sailing.

On Monday night, the President said in Cincinnati, "We refuse to live in fear." I agree, but let us not overreact or get tricked or get trapped out of fear either.

Mr. President, on the 11th of September, 2001, our country came under attack and the world suddenly seemed shockingly small and unquestionably dangerous. What followed that horror continued to be frightening and disorienting -- anthrax attacks, color-coded threat levels, report after report of terrorist cells seemingly everywhere. In the weeks and months since September 11, Americans have had to contend with these changes and to come to grips with the reality that this could happen again, that there are forces planning to do us harm, and that we cannot unconditionally guarantee our own safety. In this new world, we cannot help but sense that the future is uncertain, that our world is disordered, unpredictable, up for grabs.

So when our leaders propose taking action, Americans do not want to resist. But they are resisting this vague and worrisome proposal, Mr. President.

My constituents have voiced their concerns in calls, at town meetings, in letters and through e-mail or with faxes. They aren't calling for Congress to bury our heads in the sand. They are not naively suggesting that Saddam Hussein is somehow misunderstood. But they are asking questions that bear directly on our national security, and they are looking for answers, Mr. President, that make sense. They are setting the standard, Mr. President, just as they should do in a great democracy. Their standard is high. We should work together to develop a policy toward Iraq that meets it.

http://www.senate.gov/~feingold/speeches/02/10/2002A10531.html
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SaveElmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-17-07 11:47 PM
Response to Reply #54
56. How about highlighting this section as well...
As it goes directly to the argument over whether the evidence on WMDs was credible...

“With regard to Iraq, I agree, Iraq presents a genuine threat, especially in the form of weapons of mass destruction, chemical, biological, and potentially nuclear weapons. I agree that Saddam Hussein is exceptionally dangerous and brutal, if not uniquely so, as the President argues. And I support the concept of regime change.” -
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Tatiana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-17-07 11:53 PM
Response to Reply #56
60. Yet, even believing all that, he still didn't vote for IWR.
Edited on Thu Jan-18-07 12:02 AM by Tatiana
Why?

Basically because things just didn't add up. Whether political expediency, ignorance, belief that Iraq had WMD's (hey so do we, does that mean the EU should invade us?), there was ample proof that voting in support of Iraq would ultimately be unwise.
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SaveElmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-17-07 11:57 PM
Response to Reply #60
61. Because as I have said...
It was not a black and white issue...it is very possible, in fact nearly always inevitable, that two people can look at the same piece of evidence and come to different conclusions about what to do...

Doesn't mean one is evil and the other isn't, doesn't mean one is serious and one isn't...it just means with issues of this nature, events are unpredictable, people are lied too etc...

You seem to have a vested interest in assigning as much blame for this war to Democrats as to George Bush...and of course that is your right...

Doesn't make you correct however...

And the bottom line is, you are accusing 28 Democrats of purposely throwing the lives of 10's of thousands of people simply for political expediency...

You have no evidence whatsoever to back that up...because there is none...
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Tatiana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-18-07 12:05 AM
Response to Reply #61
63. No. My bottom line is that I don't want people who exercise such poor decision-making skills
when lives are at stake being the President of the United States.
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SaveElmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-18-07 12:06 AM
Response to Reply #63
64. Would you then have voted against FDR...
In 1944, Abraham Lincoln in 1864, John F. Kennedy in 1964 (had he lived)

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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-18-07 01:16 AM
Response to Reply #63
67. Please, please, keep him going. It is just so completely entertaining
watching the leaps, stretches, and contortions. After the election season is over, he should audition for Cirque de Soleil.:rofl::popcorn::rofl:
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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-17-07 11:59 PM
Response to Reply #60
62. What you said. n/t
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JI7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-17-07 11:48 PM
Response to Original message
57. Chuck Hagel
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-18-07 06:51 AM
Response to Original message
71. I hold more resentment for democrats that won't protect and defend
the constitution and our citizen's rights adequately than a democrat that supported the IWR and now realizes it to be the grave mistake it was. I've listened to Edwards speak in Raleigh NC about the Iraq situation and he really is sincere in his apology for that vote and his determination to see that war end and restore America's credibility in the world along with ending it's bully approach.
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-18-07 08:46 AM
Response to Original message
72. I have no intention of letting it go.
All the political spin and rhetoric in the world will not restore life to the dead, health to the maimed, or undo the consequences to family, friends, and communities who have lost those dear to them.

All that political spin and rhetoric is likely to do is drive me directly away from whatever position or candidate the spinner is promoting.
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leftyladyfrommo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-18-07 08:49 AM
Response to Original message
73. I feel the same way. Even I knew that going to war in Iraq was just
a huge mistake and would have terrible consequences. How could they have believed that line of bull the white house was putting out? Doesn't make sense to me.
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