Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Why I worry about our getting out of Iraq and leaving the Middle East alone.

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (01/01/06 through 01/22/2007) Donate to DU
 
madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-18-07 12:59 AM
Original message
Why I worry about our getting out of Iraq and leaving the Middle East alone.
This is an article from 2005, pretty pleased with what we had done in Iraq, urging it not be a one party effort to continue the spread of Democracy in that region. This article has bothered me, and continues to do so. Actually I guess you would call it a memo. It bothers me because it sounded in March of 05 just like Joe Lieberman sounds today.

I really fear all our Democrats feel this way, aside from a few of the new ones and the Progressive Caucus.

Advancing Democracy

March 4, 2005
Idea of the Week: Advancing Democracy

The last couple of months have witnessed an important, if fragile, upsurge of pro-democratic activity in the Arab Middle East, a region of the world where the absence of political and economic freedom has helped produce the stagnation and isolation that has contributed to the rise of Islamic Jihadism.

..."After decades with virtually no open democratic activity in the region, the quick succession of these events suggests they are connected, and could produce still more breakthroughs as the long-suppressed democratic forces of the Arab Middle East gain strength and courage. It is vitally important for the United States to do everything possible to promote this trend.


The memo does mention being disturbed that the right wing was equating these successes just to the military campaign in Iraq. But then they go on to criticize the "left" for not understanding the great importance of this Democracy spreading. In fairness they don't advocate for military use as much as other ways.

But this has been the goal of the policy makers in both parties. I have no doubt of that.

Meanwhile, some on the political left, in an ironic endorsement of these theories, have been slow to embrace the pro-democratic trend in the region, reflecting a general temptation to reject anything Bush supports, even if it reflects long-held Democratic and democratic values and traditions.

The truth is that the Bush administration deserves some credit for adopting the right stance toward democracy in the Arab Middle East -- even if it harnesses universal values like democracy and freedom to a foreign policy asserting America's unilateral and claim to interpret and apply those values. But Bush's pro-democracy push relies far too much on military force and mere rhetoric, as opposed to a real, consistent, constructive, and multilateral effort to systematize democracy promotion and economic engagement as central features of U.S. foreign policy.


I read that bold part to say that Bush is right in his goals in the Middle East. He just went about it the wrong way. The memo discusses forming an agency to be called the Democracy Movements and Transitions agency. Actually there are a couple of groups that sound like that. One is called NED..the National Endowment for the Democracies. Some of our Democrats serve as leaders of that group.

The other is something like Foundation for Defense of Democracies. Many Democrats serve on that board as well.

The memo ends with this paragraph:

Promoting democracy, particularly in the Arab Middle East, is too important for this country's strength, security, and credibility to be carried out in a half-baked or half-hearted matter -- and also far too important to be copyrighted by any one political party. Certainly Democrats, as the name of our party suggests, should be front and center in this effort.


I read a couple of paragraphs written today, I think. They are at the centrist Democratic Strategist. Actually the person is right. I am an older grassroots, netroots person, only a real activist for the last couple of years. And I am capable and intelligent and able to see the evil we have done in the Middle East quite clearly. I am only sorry the author chooses to be so skeptical of my capability.

http://www.thedemocraticstrategist.org/strategist/2007/01/talkin_bout_my_generation.php

It is this lack of historical appreciation – this lack of understanding of political imperatives – and its attendant lack of patience that unites the New Left of the 1960s with the netroots today. It is the promise and peril of political naïveté—the admirable impulse that led me as a 22-year-old college senior in 1995 to hunger strike for 5 days for what I thought to be an important cause, an impulse the potential destructiveness of which is laid bare in the disclosure that the cause was establishing an Asian-American Studies program immediately rather than waiting for the university bureaucracy to vote on it.

.."New Democrats—young and old—fear that the New New Left—young and old—will miscalculate in addressing each question, or worse, will not even acknowledge these are legitimate and crucial questions. (How does Matt know, for instance, that the "new movement" is a majority, non-silent or otherwise?) Like other committed Democrats, we hope for their success and will work and fight alongside them on many endeavors, but we will also point out that whatever '60s activism achieved, it also handed the country to the Republicans for more than a generation. The netroots better be prepared to tell us what we'll get in return this time around to justify such a result.


Hey, Scott, you put us down throughout your article. Then you say we need to tell you what you will get in return for working with us?

How about a group of people that holds its party to higher standards? How about you get from a glimpse of the "real" reality. Yes, you are referring to your opinion of the netroots. But that kind of attitude toward the people of the party is just about why we got bogged down in a foreign country based on lies.

I can guarantee you our "political naïveté" would probably have kept us from invading a country that was no threat.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-18-07 02:01 AM
Response to Original message
1. Chris Bowers of MyDD defends the intelligence of the blogger and netroots.
From MyDD:

http://www.mydd.com/story/2007/1/17/151250/390#commenttop

"I could start listing credentials in response to this. Hell, I studied at Oxford University, and Matt studied at Harvard. I don't know a single blogger without a college degree, and the vast majority of bloggers I know have advanced degrees. This is similar to our readership, 41.1% of whom have advanced degrees, 38.5% of whom have college degrees, and 6.4% of whom are in college. Frankly, I think it is a bit much to state that people with this level of education are somehow unaware of recent American political history, and / or don't understand "political imperatives" in our system of governance. It is also offensive to indicate that people with an average age of around 45, extensive activist experience, and an extremely high level of news consumption are naïve. For more on the demographics of progressive blog readers, see here, here, and here.

But this isn't about credentials, and it isn't about demographics. If it were, then it would be acceptable to dismiss people who disagreed with you on political strategy as naïve, uninformed, stupid, poorly read, brainless, lacking in historical perspective and equally lacking in an understanding of political imperatives if they were not well educated, middle-aged, obsessively news consuming political activists. It is not OK to do that either--in fact, it is incredibly elitist--but it is precisely what "New Democrats" have repeatedly done to the left-wing of the Democratic Party for decades. Whenever someone perceived to be "on the left" disagrees with a pundit, staffer or elected official from the DLC-nexus (or, for that matter, an academic from the hard left), the immediate and repeated response from that pundit, staffer, or official has consistently been, in so many words, to call that person stupid."


Chris is right on this. His whole write-up is a very good read.

It appears to have a lot to do with keeping the grassroots in line by making them seem inadequate.


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-18-07 12:03 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. A little more from MyDD on the Winship article.
There has been too much of this talking down to people in the party. They started it in 2003, really getting caustic about it.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com:80/madfloridian/62

So Chris had more to say on their attitude in his post I linked to above.

if someone's first reaction in a disagreement is to call those who disagree with him stupid and uninformed, I have serious doubts about our ability to engage in a productive, long-term alliance. If someone thinks you are stupid, they will never think of you as an equal. If someone doesn't think of you as equal, they will always believe they should hold more power than you. Thus, if there are people in the progressive ecosystem who think the netroots are stupid, those people will always want to marginalize the netroots within our broad coalition. It is not difficult to tell when people tolerate your presence in "their" coalition because they are forced to, and when people openly welcome you into "our" coalition because they genuinely are willing to work with you.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
VelmaD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-18-07 02:06 AM
Response to Original message
2. what a load of crap
Does the author of that piece actually believe Bush is promoting democracy in the Middle East? If so, I want some of what he's smoking. And since when have Democrats NOT supported democratcy in the Middle East? What utter garbage.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-18-07 02:11 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. I think they are paying lip service because it is the goal of many Dems as well.
I firmly believe they would have run the war better, but I firmly believe the war would have happened anyway.

I hate being jaded like this, but calling the netroots unintelligent is not way to win friends and influence the voters in your party. AND that begs another question....to a few in the party the goals are so similar a win did not matter that much.

Aha.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Emit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-18-07 01:57 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. "...but I firmly believe the war would have happened anyway..."
Wow. madfloridian, I just said this same thing LAST NIGHT when I was discussing with my SO the Dem candidates for Pres '08 and whether I was going to volunteer with the party in the same capacity I did in '04 and '06 -- or whether there was a candidate that I would back as intensely as I did in '04. I took on a big task, especially last year, and it took it's toll on my family. My SO sensed my jaded attitude, too. And this year, in Nevada where I live, we have our early caucuses, so that is going to be a major big deal.

Our discussion lead to how, when you step back and look at the big picture, I AGAIN said the same exact thing you said here: "...the goals are so similar a win did not matter that much..."

We discussed the DLC, the DCCC, globalization, and, since I'm currently reading Jimmy Carter's book, how Israel was supported wholeheartedly by most, if not all, prominent Dems in Congress when they annihilated Lebanon last summer, and how many Dems have the same aggressive attitude toward Iran that is not much different than the opposition (see Steny Hoyer, et al.). We discussed how the Dems may have gone about things in a more user-friendly manner, and, we found ourselves saying the same old thing, "Well, if Hilary (Obama, etc.) wins, I'd still vote for her (him) ... I'm not voting Republican, that's for sure..."

But, the bottom line is, what difference would it really make? I think the powers that be in both parties see the future the same -- that our involvement in the ME is required as part of US interests and the US will move forward in exacting change, uninvited, with or without diplomacy, and by force if necessary, regardless of which of our two parties are in power. It is only a matter of how to go about that change that really gets discussed.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-18-07 02:25 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. I hate being this disillusioned.
I try not to be. But the ones in the party who sound a little different, who say things a little politically incorrectly, are pretty soon out of the picture. Hushed up for the good of the congressional Democrats and the job they have to do.

Just discouraged. And a little bitter about all the deaths.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TomClash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-18-07 05:32 AM
Response to Original message
4. Somehow I doubt Lantos and Lieberman
sponsored the Advance Democracy Act for the sake of democracy in the "Arab MIddle East."
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-18-07 04:24 PM
Response to Reply #4
8. OMG did that bill pass? How did I miss that?
I just found an article at Salon about it. It is from 2005. Did it pass or was it just introduced. Lordy, what are we up to?

http://dir.salon.com/story/news/feature/2005/03/15/democracy_act/index.html

"March 15, 2005 | President Bush's "axis of evil," in targeting only Iraq, Iran and North Korea, was apparently an understatement. Saddam Hussein, the ayatollahs and "Dear Leader" Kim Jong Il were just the tip of the iceberg. The backers of new legislation before Congress have a much bolder vision: to "achieve universal democracy" by 2025 by removing -- nonviolently -- approximately two dictatorships a year. President Bush's call, in his February State of the Union address, for support of "democratic movements in the Middle East and beyond, with the ultimate goal of ending tyranny in our world," must have been just what they wanted to hear.

If enacted, the new bill -- the ADVANCE (which stands for Advance Democratic Values, Address Nondemocratic Countries, and Enhance) Democracy Act of 2005, introduced into both houses on March 3 -- would bring about a fundamental change in U.S. foreign policy. To maintain a regional balance of power, ensure access to vital resources, and pursue larger national security goals such as the "war on terror," the United States has traditionally worked with dictators big and small, from the tyrants of the past (such as Anastasio Somoza in Nicaragua) to current autocratic allies (such as Pervez Musharraf in Pakistan and Crown Prince Abdullah in Saudi Arabia). The ADVANCE Democracy Act, the foreign policy version of "Just Say No," on the other hand, would attempt to steer the United States away from engaging with tyrants under any circumstances."

More:

"Initially funded at $250 million for two years, the act would direct resources to pro-democracy movements worldwide. The bill proposes to turn U.S. embassies into "islands of freedom" and align U.S. diplomats with pro-democracy movements in nondemocratic countries -- linking performance pay and promotions of Foreign Service officers to their efforts to spread democracy. The bill would also authorize the president to block financial flows to states that resisted democratization."

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-18-07 10:06 PM
Response to Original message
9. I wasn't kidding about the insults to the grassroots done by this group.
They have continued even worse since the election.

Al From warns against bending the knee to noisy activists

I don't think he could have been more insulting if he tried.

As the dust settles from the election, Democrats will face many choices, but none greater than the choice about what kind of party we want to be.

That's an especially important message for the large number of potential Democratic presidential candidates. There's a perception in some media and political circles that Democratic White House wannabes, like their Republican counterparts, must systematically bend the knee to ideologically inflexible and noisy party activists to have any prayer of nomination or election. They should pay attention to what happened in Connecticut on Nov. 7, where even in a strongly anti-war blue state, voters rejected a high-profile effort to exclude Joe Lieberman from the Democratic Party.


The new leader of the DLC is Harold Ford. Salon has an article up about him which expresses many concerns. I fear a share some of them.
He will have trouble with Pelosi, and he insulted Dean on national TV. He was used by James Carville to further attack him.

I see no reason for stuff like this. I hope he tries to be more decent to the activists and netroots and grassroots and the DNC.

http://www.salon.com/opinion/feature/2007/01/19/harold_ford/

I think Vilsack tried to set a more pleasant atmosphere while he was head of the group. I really do think so. I don't think it will last.

To fully understand what the Ford choice means for the DLC, consider the man Ford is replacing -- or, better yet, consider the two major national Democrats whom Ford failed to replace.

Once he announced he was running for president, Tom Vilsack was required by DLC bylaws to end his 18-month stint as DLC chairman. It was the popular Democrat's own choice not to run for a third term as Iowa governor last fall. As both a Beltway outsider and a Midwesterner, Vilsack was an interesting person to chair an organization Al From founded 20 years ago as a device for moving Democrats rightward to pacify the party's fading Southern wing. The press release Vilsack issued to announce his departure from the DLC, for example, made special mention of how he'd helped forge "a successful working relationship with organized labor leaders on mutually beneficial issues for the first time." And while DLC policy guru Marshall Wittman was deriding the "the activist left out of sync with the American public" on Iraq, Vilsack was using his waning hours as governor to urge the Iowa Legislature to pass a resolution decrying the Bush-Lieberman-McCain escalation plan.

..."Where Ford may find trouble connecting is with two people who are now among the nation's most powerful Democrats, Nancy Pelosi and Howard Dean. He sought the job of one, was touted as a replacement for the other, and is an ideological peer of neither.


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
WinkyDink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-18-07 10:16 PM
Response to Original message
10. Democracy can't be spread, like jam.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Tue Apr 30th 2024, 12:20 AM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (01/01/06 through 01/22/2007) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC