You are being LIED TO to start another WAR, this time, with IRAN!!

1. Iran has not EVEN PRODUCED ENRICHED URANIUM, let alone have NUKES. It is utterly REPREHENSIBLE that this DISINFORMATION is being spread on Democratic Underground, of all places!

2. Iran says it wants to produce enriched uranium to generate nuclear power. Nuclear power plants are COMMON throughout the world. Bulgaria has nuclear power. Brazil has nuclear power. So do Armenia, Argentina, Mexico, Brazil, Pakistan, and many other counties.

3. The description of this as an URGENT CRISIS is MANUFACTURED and ARTIFICAL. The same people that brought you all the bullshit intelligence that got us into Iraq are DOING THE SAME THING ALL OVER AGAIN. Even if Iran were to begin developing nuclear weapons, it would take them an estimated 5 years to produce one! http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4217824.stm

4. THE UNITED STATES IS NOT IN ANY DANGER AT ALL. Even if, in 5 years, Iran were to develop a nuclear weapon, the United States would STILL BE IN NO DIRECT DANGER. Iran would need to be able to deliver the weapon to the United States with a ballistic missile with intercontinental range, WHICH THEY DON'T HAVE.

5. ISRAEL IS FULLY CAPABLE of defending herself against Iran. Israel is said to have as many as 200 nuclear warheads, and its war machine is the most powerful in the Middle East thanks in large part to the $5 billion the US gives to Israel annually.

6. North Korea, a country that IS our STATED ENEMY, that has already THREATENED to destroy the US, now has up to 20 nuclear warheads. They also have ballistic missiles with ranges capable of HITTING THE UNITED STATES. Why is this not mentioned in the newspaper or by our "leaders?" Because their motives for wanting to hit Iran have NOTHING TO DO WITH NATIONAL SECURITY.

This is one of the most dangerous periods in our lifetimes. The United States is on another march to non-provoked invasion of a sovereign nation, with the use of tactical nuclear weapons being raised by the Pentagon as a realistic possibility. Based on the record, the people who are in charge of distributing the intelligence that is used as a pretext to war ARE NOT TO BE TRUSTED. They LIED to us on Iraq, yet NO ONE HAS BEEN HELD ACCOUNTABLE, NO ONE HAS BEEN FIRED.

We CANNOT LET THE U.S. ATTACK IRAN.

'Fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can't get fooled again' —
George W. Bush.

:rofl:

buy into the hype and bullshit. fear! fear! the sellers of fear hope that sooner or later they find YOUR button, and mine. And if this weeks fear du jour doesn't work, maybe next weeks will.

Gitcher "I HATE IRAN" bumper stickers! We got "I HATE MUSLIMS" buttons and some myths about pigs and islam to sell ya!

TERRORISM FOR SALE, never used, ISLE 9!

Geez, people have gotten skittish, haven't they?
The Professor

I mean, they do seem to get REALLY nervous about terrorist threats. They're even willing to give up our civil rights for protection. (Sounds a little sissy to me.)

LTTE's, here at DU, in open conversation, i've referred to people who are so afraid of terrorists, gay marriage, feminism, etc. etc. etc, as cowardly. Their fear is completely irriational. (Even with terrorism, if you don't live in a major city, you will never have anything on which to fear.)
The Professor

NT!

at least the people (minority) who actually honestly cast a vote for bush.

SUCHA DEAL!

This is the most expensive mistake in world history, i fear.
The Professor

out to the bush regime.

I double dare the fucking cowards. I think the feckless bastards in D.C haven't seen shit yet. I hope they continue with their ill conceived plans

Are they being proactive and doing a pre-emptive stike on oil?

1. The WAR MACHINE that Dwight Eisenhower gravely warned us about 50 years ago has taken over both government and the media. Congress shows NO LEADERSHIP on these grave matters because they are at the trough, with each of their districts relying on hundreds or thousands of arms manufacturer jobs.

2. OIL is another reason. The War Machine needs oil, and so do its corporate masters. Bush is a whore for the oil industry. Instead of tapping into the inventiveness and ingenuity of the American people to develop alternative fuel sources, we're killing and crippling people to obtain a substance that, when burned, is killing and crippling our planet.

3. The RIGHT WING LIKUD party of Israel is a little sidekick to the right-wing fascists of the United States. Most Israelis believe in peace and a two-state solution. It's becoming increasingly clear that Likud helped to develop the disinformation that led to the Iraq War (through the Pentagon's office of Special Plans). It's imperative that American Jews stand up to these Israeli right-wing fascists. Many Israelis do, but they need the support of their American brothers and sisters!

it is hard to not cry when listening to it... specially on places you respect.

k&r

peace

Iran = sandwiched between Afghanistan and Iraq.

North Korea has Bomb. North Korea gets no invasion.

US invades Afghanistan, US invades Iraq --> Iran want Bomb (very understandably).

I hope a diplomatic solution can be reached, but am not going to hold my breath.

...*I* got worried.

She usually sees through this shit. The American populace must be worn thin!

We know all about this sick bastard* and his lies. What's hard is watching people who should know better buying this sack of shit.

in this world out of "fear." Bushco uses fear to manipulate the masses. We need to stand up to him here, so that we don't have to fight over there, or anywhere else. KICK.

After all, Iran needs to be "liberated". Maybe a little democracy, American style?

I fear that Bush Inc has more sinister plans in the works and that this "nuclear" program is nothing more than a ruse.

I saw it last night and I realized at about 1:30 a.m. that I need to stop this war from happening and we need to EDUCATE the public about WHY war is so quickly viewed as a "solution" when ALL THE FACTS SAY OTHERWISE.

Even if you're familiar with the issues at hand, I HIGHLY recommend this movie!!

http://www.sonyclassics.com/whywefight/

And Welcome to DU!!! :toast:

I saw "Why We Fight" a couple weeks ago. It's scary stuff.

The money we spend on entertainment will encourage and enable the dissemination of facts, like F911. And also lets keep away from the pro-war, pro-bigot offerings from Hollywood.

Of course...



http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/CLA410A.html

I wasn't sure until this euro business until that--now it's up to about 80% certainty with me.

:patriot:

would be a pretty damn big coincidence.

about a possible attack on Iran. I answered yes to only one of them...Iran actually launching a nuclear missile against America. At that point I wouldn't have a problem with blasting them (well, a few problems, but I think I'd be run over in the stampede to nuke the place). They asked if Iran's attacking Israel would be a good enough reason for us to attack Iran. I picked the response that sort of said we could help but not take the lead.

Israel has an estimated 200 nuclear weapons and would doubtlessly use them if nuked by Iran. Iran knows this.

Another statement by Bush

When asked what he thought historians would say about him he replied

"It won't matter, we'll all be dead!"

Did he mean all our contemporarians will be dead? obviously...
Or did he mean we'll ALL be dead in terms of Armageddon...

o.0

bombs detonated at Tel-Aviv, Jerusalem, and Eilat alone would practically wipe out the majority of Israeli civilians, let alone any military facilities nearby. There can be no retalitory strike by Israel if Iran were to attack them in this manner.

I think your argument falls apart given this information. Israel cannot afford to wait to be attacked.

that the U.S. would retaliate...because, DUers, it's about OIL. Or have we changed the presumptions regarding the Imperial Death Star's real motives in the middle east?

Mutually assured destruction may not be that effective against an opponent in the buisness of creating and supporting martyrs. Iran is not the secular nation that Iraq is.

http://www.iranfocus.com/modules/news/article.php?story...

Good regurgitation of the neocon bullshit "cannot afford to wait" crap, though.

you "wait" for other countries to act. But I guess the Jews should trust everyone to get it right "this time".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeasement#Appeasement_of_Hitler
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munich_Agreement

Gosh, I think neocon-speak is so damn hilarious!

i'm not speaking as a neo-con, i'm speaking as a Jew who has read numerous articles about Iran's leadership clamoring for the destruction or Israel. Maybe Jews should just ignore such articles. After all, what's the worst that could happen?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Jews

Lynn, are you a woman? Have you ever had pre-marital sex?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4295111.stm

Oops. Still laughing? Maybe you are because you don't live in Iran and have to face capital punishment for pre-marital sex. Or is this issue "neo-con speak" as well? IMHO, Liberals need to stand up for civil rights abroad as well as home. This need not be a precursor for war per se, but we betray our own values by flippantly writing off military action against oppresive regimes.

:)

and i'm sure you mean well, but there are around 7 million people living in Israel with most of those people (91%) living near urban centers. Iran has made well publisized threats against Israel. Iran is pursuing nuclear technolgies. Iran, like most military-minded soverign nations, will most likely attempt to build a nuclear weapon. Jews have a history of persecution and in my grandparents lifetime have survived an attempted genocide. Iranian leaders have promised just such a genocide.

Dismissing these concerns is offensive and dangerous. Playing smug like you are is likewise offensive and belittles the gravity of the situation. I think if one were to really paying attention to world history and current events they would realize that.

WHAT IF Canada decides some day in the future...OMG better nuke Canada just in case coz we can't afford to wait!!!

Iran is not a threat. Iran has the LEGAL RIGHT to persue nuclear research and energy.

ISRAEL and AMERICA are the ones doing the threatening. ISRAEL AND AMERICA are the ones currently occupying nations.

Once again for ya...IRAN HAS THE LEGAL RIGHT TO PERSUE NUCLEAR TECHNOLOGY.

That's a fact.

Too bad Israel and America don't bother abiding by the law likewise.

The President of Iran has a stated goal of wiping Israel off the the face of the Earth.

Do you not get that?

and did so, killoing 100,000s innocent people in the process.

Israel & the US threaten Iran daily & have done so for a long time. If that were my country being threatened daily by Israel & the USA, I'd probably say I wish they were wiped off the4 map, too.

Iran DOES NOT HAVE NUKES, but ISRAEL does; ISRAEL is in violation of some 60+ UN resolutions, including illegal invasions & occupations.

If I were the prez of Iran you better believe I'd have nukes. NK has em, and we leave NK alone. Iraq didn't have em, aqnd look what America The Used To Be Great did.


Why should the only nation in human history that's dropped nukes be allowed to have any or say who does & doesn't get any?

And WHAT do YOU not understand about the FACT that Iran is LEGALLY ALLOWED to persue nuclear energy & research?

What do YOU not understand about preventive war being IMMORAL ILLEGAL and bloody WRONG?

You said "If I were the prez of Iran you better believe I'd have nukes."
Then you said " Iran is LEGALLY ALLOWED to persue nuclear energy & research?"
Surely you can see where this is going.

Iran's nuclear energy and research program means nuclear weapons. You realize that yourself.

Now, is it a good thing that Iran has nuclear weapons. I believe no. I believe this because of comments the President made regarding his wish that a certain Middle East country within firing range be wiped off the map.

Do you wish to see Israel wiped off the map?

YOU.

Got proof?

No you don't.

Does bush? No.

The IAEA? No.

Shall we just kill off the rest of the entire world just in case?

I say No.

And why so many idiots think Iran could "wipe Israel off the map" I dunno. Same idiots who thought Iraq could hurt the USA.

"If I was the prez of Iran, you'd better believe I'd want nukes." says LynntheDem. You know he wants nukes. You said it yourself, stop being obnoxious and changing your opinion.

Do you realize how small Israel actually is? It is a teeny tiny country. I'm not saying it's easy to destroy, but with the resources of a country, left unchecked it is definetely doable.

why so many idiots think Iran could "wipe Israel off the map"? Uhhh let me think. The President of Iran for one thinks so. The same guy you don't mind letting develop nuclear weapons. Not too smart.

Unlike you (and bushcabal) I do NOT KNOW what other people would or would not do coz I don't have one of them thought-ball thangs.

Israel is THE MOST ARMED nation in the entire ME.

200 nukes.

Iran wiping Israel off the map... :rofl:

You know the President of Iran would want them too. Yes, you can never be sure what someone is actually thinking. It is pretty obvious he wants them if you think a bit about it, or in your case, admit it.

Yes Israel has a lot of nukes, and they would fire back at Iran. So Israel is destroyed and Iran is destroyed now. Doesn't sound like the best of options to me.

Iran might not succeed at wiping Israel off the map, but even if they tried the results would be devastating to the world.

And if YOU know that, you should inform the US gov immediately.

Have a wonderful day! :)

and the administration immediately claimed with certainty that it was orchestrated by Iran. Would you believe it?

And even if it were true, it wouldn't justify nuking the whole country.

a draft? a polic state? a suspension of constitutional rights? an invasion of Iran's souther oil fields?

Get ready, the next attack is coming. and all of the above will happen because Americans still don't get the big picture.

How many here believed the Iraq War premises?
How many here listened to Noam Chomsky, Scott Ridder, Ambassador Wilson, Jessie Jackson et all, PRE-March 2003? Was a poll taken, cause I think that would be VERY instructive.

I voted for Bush in 2000. I was right with him until the Iraq talk started. It just so happened that the Catholic Priest/Pedophilia scandal was breaking in Boston at the same time. All of my illusions were destroyed when I dug in and did research on the scandal -- only months before I was researching Islam and I was convinced that Muhammed was the anti-Christ. I think it took two or three months to learn that everything I believed was WRONG. Wrong on Islam. Wrong on my religion. Wrong on my values. Wrong on my country. Went from reading O'Reilly to reading Chomsky, Vidal and Howard Zinn.

As it is now, I am horrified and depressed and it only gets worse as the days go by and I see no opposition that can effectively stop the GOP. Every day more crimes are exposed and everyday the pundits spin it so that my brain literally hurts.

Unless the Democratic party unconditionally unifies AGAINST the GOP, and I mean unifies on every crossed t and dotted i, these criminal bastards won't be stopped.

I see no evidence of that happening, so. . prepare for the worst. The vote is STILL privatized.

It is my understanding that the nuclear material used for power plants is much less dense than that used to nuclear bombs, hence it is easy to discern the difference. Also, it is my understanding that due to the complexity of making the material for nuclear bombs the factories are much different, hence readily discernible.

Therefore, the Bush administration are bald face liars. Am I wrong?

And who are they going to send to fight in it?

...how to pay for it won't even be a consideration and they'll send nukes to fight it.

With their Fake Evidence! * Trust Bush?

Step three of the PNAC game plan, is all they are selling IMO! Same Old Shiza!

and no one can wait for a bourse, of course,
it would lead to euro per force of course
unless of course the bourse's course
was bombed to smithereens......

excellent!
:rofl:

Early Warning by William Arkin, author of Codenames
http://blogs.washingtonpost.com/earlywarning/2006/01/attack_iran_wer.html

(and an interview with Arkin at
http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=05/01/27/1359252 for those interested in more).

Apparently the general public needs to be Polo Stepped ! Furthermore, the warplanning strongly mimics the old '60s Operation Northwoods and '70s Nixon plans to seize Saudi oilfields

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=2432151&mesg_id=2432151

The planning for war should have been tempered by planning for peaceful means to obtain the same objectives...one would think, if Sun Tzu's 'Art of War' were being considered fully. But rationality has no place in the DOD and Bush Administration's agenda.

who want to bring down our government once and for all? They also tend to show very strong support for our president. One wonders about his true agenda.

WP said in his retirement piece that Greenspan got his job as Nixon's Chief Economic Advisor because he "dropped out of Juillard to play in a swing band" that featured a man who was one of Nixon's biggest supporters in the late 1940s. Around the same time Greenspan became an acolyte of Ayn Rand, who herself attended his swearing-in ceremony! Apparently his study of Ayn Rand is where he picked up his economics.

There are plenty of anarchists on the left but I don't see them starting wars, much less infiltrating the government to bring it down from within.

If you believe the "This Modern World" hypothesis, that's what all the ex-Trotskyite radicals from the 60s (now known as neocons) are doing.

Between that and the end-timers, it's no wonder Bush doesn't care where Bin Laden is or how many people have to die to win the war on terra.

Ledeen started out promoting a form of international fascism, and that still seems like the path they are on, eventhough they claim to be fighting Islamo-fascism. He also seems to be the leading philosopher.

Many of the anarcho-capitalists or individualist anarchists are scarey, not only because they don't want to pay taxes, but they are also anti-statist and seem to view democracy as just a form of communism that needs to be defeated. To them total freedom means being free from the democratic binds of the rest of society. They have the resources to form their own little sovereignty, fuck everybody else. Under Bush, they also join forces with the religious nuts who feel that democracy is a failed experiment and that the rule of God should take over.

Please investigate the early leadership of the CIA and you'll see even Reinhard Gehlen's name, as an Operation Paperclip addition and KOM. Allen Dulles on down...

the Sovereign Military Order of Malta claims to be a sovereign entity (without a territory) and has permanent observer status at the UN. You need to be of noble lineage to be considered for membership.

Here's a very descriptive article from MotherJones:

http://www.motherjones.com/news/feature/1983/07/willbedone.html

First of all, what do we really have left to invade Iran with, the Cub Scouts?

Secondly, probably the rest of the UN would finally snap to, and do something useful to stop our insane government.

Thirdly, the bubbas and NASCAR dads might finally notice that it's their kids going to die in the desert, not the sons and daughters of their "leaders."

I know, we'll try to stop them yet again, but I'm just trying to find a bright side when they ignore our wishes yet again.

I really don't think we'll be entering into an outright war with Iran, as we did with Iraq.

Our economy is broken. The military is stretched to the breaking point. Corruption openly poisons our political system, and our once strong diplomatic ties are exceedingly thin. We owe all of this to the Iraq war and subsequent occupation, which the public becomes less tolerant of with each passing day.

The modern Republican is all about greed and self-interest. Another war would cause a rift with the party as, no doubt, what little patience the public has left is swept away. The reluctant would finally open their eyes as our foreign excursions begin to erode their own quality of life, not to mention the likely drafting of their children.

There is no political advantage for them in such a war, only a population even angrier than it is today. So foolhardy a maneuver would also give a truckload of ammunition to the Democrats. I don't think it'll happen.

Who but hateful infidels would dream of staging telegenic riots on Superbowl Sunday?

heavy :sarcasm:

But it is not "WE" who need to be told this and convinced.

Unfortunately, you are preaching to the choir.

The amerikkkan sheeple, that's another thing...

because I haven't seen a DUer stating that Iran is a nuclear threat. Having said that, I do agree with your post.

rhetoric of fear all ramped up.

This was posted here in a thread yesterday from CNN's website... it is purported to be a "nuclear facility" in Iran that is under scrutiny...



Another poster thought it looked familiar and pulled an archive photo from somewhere of a facility in N Korea... different resolution and crop but i tweaked the sizing to try and get the same geographic area... it looks like the same facility to me, the roads, coordination of buildings, even the contour of the land. I think the Iran photo is JUST AN OLD SAT IMAGE OF THE N KOREA SITE! see for yourself...

well, whattya think?


(edited to put pictures side by side)

that Iraq had WMD's. Is there anything in any of these pictures that re actually supposed to prove something? I see a circle, some what look to be buildings and some roads. Could be pretty much anything. We used to have a perfectly round pony ring at our riding stable. There were also roads, houses, barns and fences and lots of open fields.

I simply can't believe that anyone in the world will go along with the chimpista's rush to invade Iran.

edit: clarity

WHAT BULLSHIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

That could be a farm in Nebraska for all I know...

:grr:

:)

:)

TO THE UN?

:rofl:

Don't let the bastards rope you in.

n/t

The other possibility is that Iran is using plans giving/purchased from North Korea for their own facility.

The government types are rarely stupid enough to resuse...OH WAIT, THEY DO ASSUME WE'RE DUMB AS A SACK OF CUCKOO CLOCKS.

They are using the same sorry script, and people (EVEN HERE!!!) are falling for it all over again.

We need to stop this war before it starts. And I am afraid it is going to start really soon.

NO MORE WAR!!!

need to tell the sheep out there over and over. they dont care anymore

They will proceed with or without public support
for one simple reason:
Because they can.

In the end, as we have seen proven with Iraq,
it wont matter whether or not the media build up
of "evidence against Iran" is true ot not.

The public now knows that the "evidence of WMDs
in Iraq" was utter crap, and I would suspect many
Americans are doubting the "evidence" they are
now being presented about Iran largely because of
the history of the Iraq situation.

The question is though, WHO can stop them?

Even the dimmest witted American has by now
come to understand that they no longer
have a voice in what their government does.

It is a horrifying event that we are watching unfold
and maddening to those of us who know
the real agenda versus the media spin.

However, I repeat:

Who will stop it?
Our Congress?
Our Senators?
A whistleblower?

No one can or will stop them, and they know this.

BHN

a great deal. And it will be awful.

But, we will.

And we will not be able to stop them.
Eventually, yes the empire, like all empires
before it will collapse, but not before more
madness ensues.
Youare right though- eventually the
people will simply refuse to participate.
But not before the powers that be make a complete mess
of it all.
BHN

:)

We need an anti war forum and some Converse AllStar HighTops.

I want to make it as hard as possible for these bastards to continue along their course of careless death and destruction.

I want them to pay with their sleep.

It will get worse before it gets worse.
People have no idea how bad it's going to get.
They have just started and we will not
be able to stop them.
We can discuss it, protest it, write our
useless representative until we fall over.
But it will not stop them.
That is the point as we have seen for the
last 6 years.
I'm not saying it's right or wrong,
I'm saying it is what it is.
They are the most dangerous people
on the planet, but they are also untouchable.
BHN

And, they have done a good job of lifting themselves out of harm's way. Proclaiming they are above the law.

They are not.

They never will be.

And while we may never dismantle that mafia, we can and we will disrupt their operations and finally, drive them out of office at least temporarily.

I agree that these are the most dangerous motherfuckers on the planet. I can't agree that we can't take them. We are the only ones that can take them because when we fight them directly, the rules change.

When the Democratic leadership tries, they are bound hand and foot.

We are not bound.

I don't see it happening before their damage has been done.
Sorry, I just don't.
BHN

on another innocent populace.

But by turning out into the street and burning up our compromised phone lines, we can slow them to a stop. We can contain them.

But, hear me clearly. What we can do and what we will do, is a toss up.

You are probably not old enough to remember the Viet Nam protests. We broke rules. We got arrested and were beaten and lives were ruined.

And it was all worth it but it all had a cost.

If we do that, their own party will fire them. That is the only way that seems viable.

Viable or not, we commit to stopping it. From this moment.

The OP posted the reasons we must stop them
form their Iran plan-
I do not believe they can be stopped before they
prey on yet another innocent populace, as you say.

I am old enough to remember the Viet Nam protests and
perhaps most memorably, the Kent State shootings.

Unfortunately, I believe that it is going to take another
Kent State situation to rouse the populace into the
actions that may end the corporatist hegemonic empire.
BHN

while the civil disobedience may have retired to submission
the military attack on civilians who dissent has not yet even begun
in full force.

BHN

everywhere think, that could have been my kid.

What they did with that thought is another matter.

Yes, we agree. It will take the spilled blood of American youth on American soil to put the brakes on these monsters.

(And that is, in addition to the as yet uncounted Katrina deaths.)

A major part of their 'modus operandi' is to perpetuate of the myth of

invincibility & inevitability--a page taken directly from '1984'. Keep the

'sheeple' so confused & fear-ridden that they self-censure their will to

resist. SG

Many are having a hard time facing it but
it's been staring us in the face for years
now.

It does not mean we should give up but we should realize as you so aptly stated

"It will get worse before it gets worse."

I don't really like facing it, as it is, either.
But not to, is delusional.
Think about it-
We have seen numerous points of
"Oh, this is going to bring them down!"
NOTHING ever does.
I have lost count of the scandals- seriously.
Sybil Edmonds.
Valerie Plame.
Trillion of dollars unaccounted for in the Pentagon.
Billions of dollars unaccounted for in Iraq.
Torture.
Cheny and his secret energy meeting minutes.
Downing Street memos...
the list is now infinite-
Things that would have brought criminal
prosecutions against ANY other group in power
simply fade into oblivion like smoke rings.

Why?
Because our representativeS are complicit.
Plain and simple.
There is NO LONGER a US government.
Simply a CORPORATE cabal of thieves and liars.
We are screwed and those who do not comprehend what is
coming will not survive it.
Period.

BHN

By Mike Whitney

01/05/06 "ICH"

what is the relationship between the ocean of debt produced by the Bush team and their strengthening of police-state apparatus like unlimited spying on Americans, the NSS (Bush’s new Secret Police), the uniform Federal ID program, the Patriot Act, and Halliburton’s $385 million contract from Homeland Security to construct new detention and processing facilities within the United States?

Is the ascendancy of the police-state intended to balance the catastrophic effects of economic destruction? Or, do the new instruments of repression anticipate the “political turmoil” (Warren Buffet’s words) that naturally results from financial collapse?

The Bush master-plan is no different than the economic shock-therapy the United States has directed at the third world for decades. The strategy is simple and straightforward, but virtually foolproof in achieving its objectives; the crushing of the middle class and the subsequent shifting of the nation’s wealth to the “oligarchy of racketeers” who run the system.

The levers of power have all been faithfully assembled by Bush operatives, while America’s $3 trillion trade deficit looms overhead like the sword of Damocles. As the underpinnings of economic wellbeing continue to deteriorate; causing further job-flight, credit spending, and soaring energy prices; the power-brokers at the head-of-state calmly arrange the instruments of repression they’ll need to maintain order.
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article11798.htm

in the USA...Gitmo and execution chambers...Americans warned by their own government to "watch what they say"...secretly & illegally spying on American citizens...kidnapping & overthrowing a democratically elected president in Haiti...calling democratically elected leaders "worrisome"...invading and occupying innocent nations...threatening to invade & occupy and/or nuke nations that haven't threatened us...

We ARE the enemy. Just ask the rest of the entire world.

delete

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

First they have that story about the former Iranian hostage getting to meet his football hero, then they have a commercial with some redneck building a mechanical scarecrow that not only shoots lazers at the crows, but beats up "hippies."

The propaganda has, thus far, been revolting and blatant.

but my Dad had the game on and while vaguely watching it I noticed all that propaganda you speak of. Also noticed several ads depicting pregnancy in some way. I guess that was calculated to promote family pride and focus on the unborn or something. Very insidious these ads.

company who'd do a commercial like that.

:puke:

end up on Chimpy's bombing list.

I don't agree with half of what Iran does, but to think that if Bush bombs them that the retaliation won't be greater than what we can stand is a bit, well, sorry here, but daft.

and that you "disagree" with the executions. I feel soooo much better

how many innocent lives is it worth to you - for all we know, we'll be executing gays here, if the "Christian" Right gets their way. Not you and me, the administration and its followers. Should you and I be bombed because bushit hates gays? I think not.

The people suffering the most in Iraq are its innocent civilians, same in Afghanistan - would it not be the same in Iran? Can you really mean what you wrote?

OTT there, no? Condemning a whole country & people for the actions of

their ruling elite? What if the rest of the world adopted the same attitude

towards the American people simply because of our "leaders'" unjustifiable

actions? SG

...because the Iranian government is fucked up? You and bin Laden have much in common.

Don

I just wonder if the word "Gay" were changed to "Africans" or "Jews", when the bombing would commence

Look I know everything coming out of DC is lies. I certainly don't want war with Iran, but I certainly can't muster the sympathy or empathy to give a good goddamn. Funny the misaministration, isn't using it(the public hangings) to further slander Iran, probably cause they agree

It's shameful to see DUers buying the Busheviks' scare tactics and seriously asking what to do about Iran.

The answer is to quit manufacturing crises.

It's not the nukes; it's the bourse. Iran switches to the Euro on 3/1, just as Saddam did shortly before we invaded Iraq. Gunboat diplomacy in an effort to save the dollar.

if Bush attacks Iran, I'm taking Iran's side. And I mean this in absolute terms. Enough to spit on any member of our armed forces that follow Bush's criminal orders. And I will do it. I promise. Enough to claim Bush's attack is equivalent to Hitler invading Poland. And I will do it. I promise.

Bush better not dare fucking touch Iran. Or he's going down (politically).

a nuke.....and that would be the end of Israel.

After all....the Iranian president has already stated he wants to wipe Israel off the map.

I think it is going to be an extremely tricky situation. I can't stand war but Iran has just dumped the UN inspectors so now we won't know what they are doing.

I don't believe a damn word Bushco says, so I am watching to see what happens with other countries.

Iran has no 100 megaton hydrogen bomb, and no likelyhood of developing one. Only the US has those.

A 10-megaton nuke of the sort India or Pakistan may have (not sure of the specifics) is capable of wiping out the core of a large city and bulldozing the suburbs around it.

Massive loss of life, yes. But Iran is unlikely to produce enough nukes, even if they had them, to wipe out Israel... and considering that Jerusalem and Haifa have substantial Arab and Palestinian populations, and Jerusalem has the Dome of the Rock, a Muslim nation is unlikely to nuke the Holy City, no matter how crazy... however much Bush may wish to incite Armageddon.

Bottom line is, even if Iran used nukes against Israel, Israel would have enough strength to retaliate and it would not be the end of Israel. Iran would suffer more, in a nuclear war.

The question for Israel is should it be a theocracy and seek to reclaim Judea and Samaria. Messianic Christians say yes. Interestingly, Orthodox Jews say no. Israel must wean itself from the teat of the money-men who wish to see Israel destroyed so they can invade Saudi Arabia and the Holy Land, in the name of their Dominionist Christian theology.

on the planet and reportedly has submarine launch capability, making it immune to first strike take outs. Israel can defend itself from an Iranian nuclear capability. The Iranians are not going to use their nukes, which by the way they don't have and are years away from any capability to develop, to attack Israel, any more than we are going to nuke the russians or they are going to nuke us. Nations do not commit nuclear suicide, that is the lesson of the 50 year cold war. Iran, if it is developing a weapons capability, is doing so because it rightly fears aggression from the United States.

On the table at the IAEA last week, and rejected by the United States, was a proposal for a complete nuclear disarmament of the middle east. Our hypocrisy in this matter is palpable.

You are probably right. But I doubt a nation consisting almost entirely of refugees and the descendants of refugees, a nation still haunted by living memories of the Holocaust, is going to trust something that is "probably" true. Iraq may not have any Nukes today, or even years from now, but Israelis believe that Iraq is trying to develop Nukes. All the Israelis I know believe that Israel will absolutely strike Iraq before allowing Iraq to even get close to functioning Nuke. The rantings of Iraq's current leader only reinforces this determination.

Too much faux moos?

In the previous post I obviously meant "Iran" not Iraq. Too much coffee.

ON DU!!

I've committed to memory the user names of people here on DU who believe this CRAP!!!

They are now highly suspect people IMHO.

Spreading the paranoid RW propaganda LIES is a SIN!

Cried the little shephard boy.

I think I see a terrorist over there, under the rock, on top of the bridge, in the middle of the street, talking on the phone. He's got a nukular device and is going to release a dirty bomb. Saddam sent him, no, he was sent by Iran.

When will the nation catch on to Bush's crying Wolf.

You can fool me once -- shame on you
If you fool me twice -- shame on me.
Bush knows that, he just didn't want to give us a sound bite.

Shame on us for not catching him in his lies.

The President of Iran has said he wants to see Israel wiped off the face of the Earth. Nuclear weapons are the only way for him to achieve his goal. He must not be allowed to acquire nuclear weapons. That is all.

AS IF, Iran would dare attack the US nuclear armed Israel?
ROLF!
Here, have some more kool-aid.
BHN

Why else would he say that he wants Israel to be wiped of the face of the Earth?

What Iran said has nothing to do with the reality of
the possibilty.
Does Iran resent the US led domination that Israel
exhibits in the region?
HELL yes.
But given the power Iran holds in OIL reserves,
can they afford to mouth off now and then-
Hell yes.
Would they actually try to strike Israel?
HELL no.
Israel has no less than two hundred US supplied
nuclear war heads.
Iran?
ZERO.
Guess who does have nuclear capabilities in the region though?
NORTH KOREA.
(Not to mention a dictator leader who is crazier than Bat-Shit)
But, NO OIL.
Figure it out.
BHN

Right now Iran's talk is just that: talk. It can be nothing more because Israel has nukes and Iran doesn't. But if Iran acquires the nukes then guess what, the talk moves into the realm of reality and that is what can't be allowed to happen.

Does this help?

Have you looked at a map lately?
Iran is SURROUNDED by the oil corporatists
who have just ILLEGALLY invaded and occupied
Iraq and Afghanistan.
Iran KNOWS it is the target.

Now tell me, seriously...
If you had the only clean water left in town,
and scary thugs took over the two
houses next to
YOUR property with the FULL intention of
killing YOUR family to gain control of YOUR water,
what would YOU DO?
Arm yourself to the teeth.
That's what.
BHN
On edit-
I am fairly certain that you are among those who have
NOT yet comprehended that it is OUR foreign "policy"
that has inspired those in OUR hegemonic sights for takeover,
to begin to ARM themselves.
Get it?

You realize that Iran DOES want nuclear weapons. That is good. I can see your point about wanting to defend themeselves from being invaded and that is certainly valid. However, nuclear weapons do nothing to protect the home base. The only realistic use of Irans' potential nuclear weapons is the destruction of Israel, something the President has stated he wants. This is why he cannot be allowed to have access to nuclear weapons.

By threatening Israel, Iran threatens US INTERESTS in the region.
Israel is the ONLY card Iran holds against the US led Empire
invasion to take over the oil.
Are you going to tell me the US is justified in such a manuever?
Because that is EXACTLY what their plan is.
To illegally attack, through pre-emptive tactical NUCLEAR air strikes
and control the oil in Iran.
Are you going to tell me you are okay with that?
BHN

I'm ok with the US, Israel and the World doing what it takes to prevent Iran from acquiring nuclear weapons. If all it takes is sanctions for Mahmoud Ahmadinejad to drop his nuclear activities then that is perfect. If it takes an invasion, then so be it.

To be clear, I do not support any kind of empire, or oil takeover in Iran. I also would not support using a nuclear air strike against Iran, and I do not believe that would be done. But Iran must not be allowed to have nuclear weapons and I hope that you can see that too.

Iran will not and would not be allowed to develop nuclear weapons.
It will be sold to you that they are- why?
To justify the illegal pre-emptive strike they are planning
in Iran to do exactly what you say you do not support.
Cheney has already commissoned a special
air force plan to do exactly that.
What you are witnessing and buying now is the corporate
owned media build up to it.
Read it and get back to me.
http://www.amconmag.com/2005_08_01/article3.html

BHN

You believe that Iran wants nuclear weapons as well. I sold myself on that fact due to their quest for enriched uranium. I am saying that they should not be allowed to, that is all.

I know that there are battle plans to attack Iran, they are preparing for battle if it should come to that.

Do you believe it would be acceptable for Iran to have nuclear weapons?

I ask you again:
Scary thugs takeover your neighboring properties.
You know fully well they plan to kill you and your family
to take your water.
What do YOU do?
BHN

Iran has an agenda to defend herself, and that is fair enough. However, how will nuclear weapons do anything but give it the ability to destroy the state of Israel? Nuclear weapons are worse than useless against an invasion. Nuclear weapons are the only possible method to destroy an entire country (Israel).

Why should Iran be allowed to have nuclear weapons?

Why should te US be allowed to illegally invade and occupy
sovereign nation states?
If this were a chicken or the egg first question.
I think the answer would be fairly obvious.
As in, would Iran really feel the need to arm themselves or
threaten Israel if they themselves were not reacting to
the threat of an US led invasion of their country
to control what reamins of the global oil reserves?
As they have ALREADY done in Iraq?
By the way, have you looked at a map of the region yet?
BHN

The US would be justified into going into Iran to prevent them from acquiring nukes.

Would I support the US taking control of Irans' oil. Absolutely not. I would be very against it. It might be hard to seperate the two events, but that does not mean that we should entirely abandon the idea of stopping Iran from getting nuclear weapons.

I ask you again: Is it a good thing for Iran to have nuclear weapons?

Given the global circumstance-
WHO is going to supply Iran with the materials?
THAT is the farce of what you are buying from the media spin on
the situation.
BHN

I wil be happy to continue the discourse with you tomorrow
after work...
BHN

Nobody should be allowed to supply Iran with materials for nuclear weapons and Iran should not be allowed to make it themselves. They are trying to make it themselves right now, they must be prevented from doing so.

Or India...or Pakistan? So far, all three countries have refused to participate in the nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT). Are you okay with that? The U.S. isn't beating the war drums against them. Don't you wonder WHY? As a matter of fact, the U.S. plans on providing nuclear technology to India, so if everybody in the Middle East is busy arming themselves and the U.S. is actively supporting those endeavors, why do you disapprove of Iran trying to protect its own interests?

Just because the PNAC Bush Administration has decided that Iran has the oil they want and their oil bourse makes them the current Bogeyman du Jour doesn't mean you have to swallow the propaganda like a good Sheeple. You might want to broaden your perspective to include the Big Picture and put down the Kool-Aid.

Israel has not attempted the destruction of another country with their nuclear weapons. Iran would. Listen or read the words of the President. One of the Iranian interests is the destruction of Israel they must not be allowed to attempt that.

Israel is notorious for preemptively attacking its neighbors . It was Israel that attacked Iran in 1981. Please point to a time when Iran has ever attacked Israel.

Considering Israel's existing nuclear arsenal and its trigger-happy propensity, Israel seems to represent the biggest threat to peace in the Mid East, not Iran.

According to your world view, it's perfectly acceptable for Israel to bomb the shit out of anybody it wants, whenever it wants but no other country is allowed to protect themselves from Israel's aggression. Substitute the "U.S." for "Israel" and you'll understand why that kind of mindset has neocon agenda written all over it.

I highly encourage you to separate yourself from the propaganda ("Sadaam is the Bad Guy....the sky is falling" morphed into "Iran is the Bad Guy....the sky is falling") and face reality. To do otherwise only enables the * Admin's empty rhetoric and lies - and look where it's gotten us thus far!

Israel didn't attack Iran in 1981. That is a fact. But I'll save you from doing research.
On June 7th, 1981 Israel destoryed Iraq's Osirak nuclear reactor, taking away Iraq's capability to produce plutonium. As a side note, this was done in defence of Iran as the Iraq-Iran war was going on at the time. Please, next time get your facts remotely correct before you start talking about history.

Not that any of this is related to the fact that the current President of Iran,Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, has repeatedly stated he wants Israel to be wiped off the face of the Earth.

Thanks for playing.

And in your bizzaro world, that's NOT an attack.

I see.

You've proven beyond a doubt that too much kool-aid rots the brain, prevents the synapses from firing and destroys all hope of reason or logic.

Why did I even bother wasting my time on a Bush-bot?

with your misrepresenting history, ad hominum attacks and tired cliches and I think you'll have nearly run the gamut on all the logical fallacies you can make in an argument.

Then we can talk about the Straw Man on your side of the table.

Pot. Kettle. Black.

First Israel was wrong for attacking Iran. Then you find out they were helping Iran and they are still in the wrong. Don't you see the flaw in your belief?

Small nuclear weapons are most certainly useful against military bases and troop formations, which is why we have a huge arsenal of tactical nukes. Iran will not use its nukes (which it doesn't have and is years away from having the capability to produce) to initiate a first strike attack Israel, as Israel has either the 5th or 3rd largest nuclear arsenal on the planet, depending on whom you ask. Attacking Israel would be suicide and 50 years of cold war demonstrated that nations don't commit nuclear suicide.

However, if the Iranian regime is in mortal peril, if for example our army tries to do to them what they did to the Iraqi regime, the MAD equation doesn't work. That is the rational reason why nations decide to build nuclear weapons: it immunizes them against conventional invasion. If we invade a nuclear Iran and appear to be close to defeating the Iranian regime, and if they have nuclear weapons, they will have lost the rational for not using them and will proceed to do so, either against our forces or against the cities of our allies in the region. Israel and Saudi Arabia would both be vulnerable in that case.

Just as the fundies in the US need abortion as a rallying cry for their base, Iran has Israel. Period.

Additionally, nuking Israel/Jerusalem would be unacceptable to all religious fanatics. Further, I see any oil field as being immune from nukes. Remember that before Bush invaded Iraq, he warned the Iraqis NOT to set the oil wells ablaze. Now, imagine radiation of those same oil wells.

This is not gonna happen.

How else is Iran suppose to wipe the state of Israel off the map? With slingshots?

Ending abortion is far more than rallying cry for the religious fanatics. It is a stated goal. A goal they work endlessly to achieve. You know about how they willing to break their "Christian principles" to bomb an abortion clinic. Can you imagine if we let them drive around in tanks??

prevented the US and the USSR from using nukes for years. Your assumption above that the only reason to acquire is to use misses the long standing MAD principle - which by a hair also stops India and Pakistan from using them. Not in anyway suggesting that Iran should have nukes - but am calling out the presumption that the only reason to have them is to use them.

The Iranians would have to be willing to be nuked themselves to use a nuke - and they know this - I don't know that their fanaticism also includes a deathwish for their country, their countrymen, and the region.

Captured my thoughts as well. The idea that a nuke is only useful if used was debunked 50 years ago. The threat of their use, in the event of someone else using them first, is a well understood deterrent. Given that Iran would be at the development stage that the U.S. and Soviets were in 1955, that would put their strategic thought processes in the same place as were ours and the USSR back then.

This is perfectly logical. "We must have nukes to prevent someone from trying to nuke us!" I'm not anxious to see any further proliferation, but i don't think Iran possessing nukes is quite the fear inducing specter seen by many others.
The Professor

the Responsible One in Iran and NOT trying to protect my people from the madness of King George.

What am I missing? :shrug:

You've overdone the koolaide.

The country is the one of the least developed of even the LDCs. The army and navy are jokes, having perhaps numbers of warm bodies but stuck with using 50-year-old equipment or China's cast-offs. And they haven't shown any real missile accuracy beyond a 60-kilometer range (they have longer range missiles, but their accuracy is like shooting a bottle rocket in the air)

The key here is the spectre of a nuclear North Korea. This keeps Japan and South Korea on edge, so they'll buy more weapons. And Kim Jong-il, who otherwise would be just a very little tinpot dictator-fish in a very big pond, has the whole world thinking his pathetic little fiefdom is a major player on the world stage, even if it is playing the role of the villain.

I have sent this to everyone I know, so hopefully they will see the signs that this administration and the media are lying to us again. You would never think that after Iraq people would fall for it again, but here we go. Hopefully, getting this kind of info out there will help people from becoming sucked in again. One can only hope.

:kick:

in my classes have spoken about the election that brought Ahmadinejad to

power. They claim the election was a totally put up job and that many

Iranians suspect CIA or DOD Psy-Ops involvement in the fraud. According to

this theory, the objective was to install a radical enough leader to

justify an eventual pre-emptive strike. SG

:tinfoilhat: ???

kiosk owner, cab driver with whom I've discussed the topic has said EXACTLY the same thing. First, the guy is bonkers. Second, he'$ got tie$ to the CIA. These are ex-pats viewing events in their homeland with some healthy distance, while being connected to the "street" through family and friends. Things that make ya go HMMMM...

the insane war-mongers currently in power in America are stirring it up in Iran and preparing for an offensive.

But WILL Americans stand for the draining of this country for yet another dubious BFEE war in the Middle East? Will the public buy all the lies a second time? Will the rest of the world put up with it?

I'm not so sure. I think we've had it with this stuff. This policy is a dismal failure.

I appreciate your sentiments, and you are right on the money.

But this is how the debate is being framed. That's the brilliance, that is the genius.

When this topic is discussed in a public forum (read as: right wing talkshows and opinion programs), the issue isn't "Could/Should Iran develop nuclear capabilities?", its "What happens when Iran uses its nukes?"

Scare tactics. And they frame their argument carefully so they can scare people into thinking that Iran might nuke NYC tomorrow...

took to the UN? If it's not, I'll comer perro:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=328488&mesg_id=329600

I have never believed anything issuing from the mouths or papers of the Bush administration; I'm not likely to start now.

I knew we were lied in to Iraq. I said so. As often as I could, to everyone I could reach. Nobody gave a shit. The nation preferred to wallow in fear and cower behind GWB "because of 9/11."

I don't support going after Iran, either. It's clearly been part of the Bush agenda all along, and anyone paying attention knew it was coming after Iraq was occupied. Some people have been saying this, to deaf ears, for a long time now.

We're being lied to? We're starting another baseless, costly, destructive war? NO SHIT.

WHAT THE FUCK ELSE ARE WE SUPPOSED TO DO ABOUT IT NOW WHEN FEW LISTEN, AND FEW CARE?

Nooooooooooooooooo.

however much one disagrees with them on principles, would somehow immediately launch their new nuclear weapons in a desperate suicidal move is inevitably a dehumanizing, bigoted and racist one.

Perhaps the only way possible to launch a war.

You are entirely correct.

K/R!

I have always seen Iran as more of a threat than Iraq. But I still don't want war with them as long as the neocons are in power. They will screw this up just like they have screwed up everything else. No more wars, just get rid of the neocons.

Tammy

These are fanatics running our military and government. They have already bankrupted our government and presently illegally occupy a nation that is now in the middle of a civil war.

:shrug:

http://news.scotsman.com/international.cfm?id=185482006

Use of force against Iran is on agenda, warns bullish Rumsfeld
MARGARET NEIGHBOUR

AMERICAN military action against Iran because of its nuclear ambitions is still an option, US Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld has warned.

With Iran remaining defiant in the face of international pressure over its atomic programme - it yesterday ended snap United Nations inspections of its atomic sites - Mr Rumsfeld upped the stakes, describing Iran as a "main sponsor" of terrorist groups.

A senior Iran defence official added to the tough talk yesterday with a senior military commander saying its forces would teach any attackers "a lesson that will be remembered throughout history".

And Iranian MPs agreed yesterday to urgently debate a parliamentary bill that would put restrictions on the sale of "unnecessary" American goods sold in the country in response to US stance on its nuclear ambitions.

Iran was reported to the UN Security Council on Saturday after failing to allay suspicions that it is seeking nuclear weapons. However, despite the rhetoric, there were signs that Iran, which insists its nuclear programme is designed only to produce energy, may be starting to look for a way out of the crisis.

A Foreign Ministry spokesman said it would discuss a proposal that Iranian uranium could be enriched in Russia to ensure it was not turned into weapons-grade material.

Mr Rumsfeld, who attended a weekend security conference in Munich, Germany, made no bones about the seriousness of the situation.

"All options - including the military one - are on the table," he told a German newspaper. "Any government that says Israel has no right to exist is making a statement about its possible behaviour in the future."

At the conference, Mr Rumsfeld accused Tehran of being behind international terrorism. "Iran is the main sponsor of terrorist organisations such as Hezbollah and Hamas," he said.

His belligerent tone was echoed by Abdolrahim Moussavi, the Iranian head of the joint chiefs of staff, who told Iranian troops yesterday: "We are not seeking a military confrontation, but if that happens we will give the enemy a lesson that will be remembered throughout history.

"This nation has proved its will many times to its enemies. Why do they want to test this great nation once again?"

Iran is armed with an unknown number of Shahab-3 ballistic missiles that could reach Israel and US bases in the Gulf, and coupled with nuclear warheads would give it the ability to fulfil President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's desire to "wipe Israel off the map".

Mr Ahmadinejad said nothing could deflect Tehran's pursuit of atomic know-how.

"Our enemies cannot do a damn thing. We do not need you at all. But you are in need of the Iranian nation," he told a crowd in Tehran yesterday. Content yourself with as many resolutions as you like, you cannot prevent the will of the Iranian people."

Iran has warned that any sanctions against it would send oil prices beyond a level industrialised economies could bear.

However, there was a glimpse of a compromise yesterday. On Saturday, Iran had declared dead a proposal by Moscow that Russia could enrich Iranian uranium for use in power stations, but yesterday Foreign Ministry spokesman Hamid Reza Asefi said Iranian officials would meet with Russian counterparts to discuss the idea.

"The situation has changed. Still, we will attend talks with Russia on 16 February," he said.

It was not clear if the change of course represented a major shift in Iran's strategy in the developing crisis over its nuclear activities.

Uranium enriched to a low degree is used as fuel for nuclear reactors. But highly enriched uranium is suitable for making atomic bombs.



WILL THE LYING BUSH REGIME EVER SPEAK THE TRUTH?

You can't trust liars, even a child knows that...

Saddam Hussein more honest than bush & cabal. How's that for a mindboggling thang.

No, I don't think I'll believe anything bush & cabal say.

NOTHING!

And I never do forget about someone lying to me. NEVER!

But as I am not a stupid MFing idiot, I won't give anyone the chance to do so a second time...let alone when it causes the deaths and maimings of 100,000s of innocent human beings.