A Question To All Those Who Think It's Too Late To Take Back America

Serious question. What are you doing here(on DU)? What's the point? If you think it's completely hopeless, that it's gone to far, that nothing you can do will change it and that this country as we know it is officially dead, then what in the world are you wasting energy here for then?

I'm here because I refuse to lie down and let them get away with this. I'm here because I won't just sit by and not fight to reclaim the greatness that is America. I'm here at DU because there is so much information, motivation and education here that I can use as weapons to help fight the fight. I'm here because DU makes me better prepared and mentally strong enough to fight that fight.

But serious question: If you aren't fighting the fight, think the fight is useless and think it's gone too far and we are wasting our time, then what are the reasons for you being here? It can't be for the motivation, you don't have any. It can't be for the information, you don't plan to use it. So what is it for then? Just to bitch and moan about how things could've been while declaring they can never be that way again? That helps us how?

I don't mean to be overly attacking or direct but I truly do want to know what those who think the cause is lost and america is dead get out of being on DU. I know what I get out of it, but then I'm fighting the fight. What do you get out of it?

(in regards to the following)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x471105

I don't think it's too late BTW.

or we will keep trying the wrong solutions.

doesn't mean that people don't want to talk about went wrong, or what could of been done differently...and even hold out a little bit of hope for the next revolution.

but I think a lot of people are here simply to blow off steam, to vent and rage. I know I do it sometimes, although I seldom rage.

This is to take nothing away from the others, the dedicated workers for truth, justice, and real American values. There are plenty of them here, too.

And, why shouldn't DU be used to let members get the rage out? Certainly the world is a hard place, and victories have been fewer that we would all like. If venting here on DU helps bring some perspective back to the depressed and downhearted, well then, is that so bad?

:)

What I do think...that it's getting to be too late for civility.....
If they are not removed from office...

If they steal any more elections and get away with it..
If they keep pushing their form of religion down our throats
...if they continue to attack unions, gays, unmarried women, handicapped, medicaid, the dwindling middle class...

There is going to be a fight like this country has never seen. I honestly believe it....

The repugs don't know when to stop...they will keep pushing the envelope until the country will fracture.....

The * Cabal has done more damage to this country than any outside force...

This is an unstoppable political machine set to destroy this country.

dismantle? Absolutely.

No force, however, is unstoppable :)

When do you stop bailing?

Most of us would say, "When the water passes our noses."

It doesn't matter how lost the cause. Personal integrity demands effort. Besides, many of us feel that the harder we try, the shorter the time necessary at the barricaides.

1. To meet REAL people of like mind before sites like
these are shut down. Meet ups are great.
2. To network with those who are preparing a backup
plan to leave the US if need be.

There is strength in numbers.

I DO think that it has gone so far that it's going to take extraordinary methods to get things back.

The definition of extraordinary is up to you. But I don't think that marches, or voting, or calling your Senator, falls under "extraordinary."

it sinks like a rock, unless it's propped up by Debbie Downers who love to tell you why your plan will not work.

I think what you're seeing is frustration expressed from our inability (and unwillingness) to get it together. Everybody's working very hard, but we're not working smartly. This spinning of wheels can cause people to lose hope.

What I want to see here is more brainstorming. More ideas, More enthusiasm. More criticism that helps make something work, rather than shooting it down. And LESS dependance on Democratic leaders to get us out of this. They're waiting for us to spark something.

that claim we're done and we can stick a fork in it. I have seen allot of threads of late from frustrated people, that are crying out for help. In help i mean they feel helpless, i feel that way myself sometimes but i usually get over it and go do something i think will help the cause.

The link you posted didn't speak of doom and gloom, it spoke to working harder to get folks informed and poking fun at somethings we'll never change. But give up! I don't see much of that from real DUer here. Just the opposite, most people that suggest giving up on DU probably aren't DU er's maybe DINO's trying to use the power of persuasion.

When I saw a fucking poll on DU asking if it's too late to save america, and the Yes, It's too late is winning with 54% late in the poll, well I just found that to frankly be purely disgusting.

I have noticed though, that of the replies in this thread so far I haven't found one from anyone this thread was directed to. I wonder where they are now.

poll's suck IMHO even ones on DU. I think this site has it's trolls like all sites, and i think allot of trolls would pump up a poll if they thought it would help their cause.

But overall, the folks on DU have knowledge and grit. And i don't see any real DU folks ready to give up, perhaps i'm being over optimistic but i don't think so.

of us to quit. Some like to bitch and moan to get attention and then there are also some folks out there who just like to 'pee in the pool' for the fun of it.

I'm not a defeatist. It's my nature to fight and it's what has kept me going through times that would have had many locked up in a padded cell or coffin. As far as I'm concerned surrender is NOT an option. This is my country, my children were born here, one is buried here, my future grandchildren will be born here and someday I will be buried here with my beloved husband. I fight not so much for myself but for the country I believe in my heart is still worth saving. I fight for our future. I fight for my daughters and my grandchildren, two of which will be entering this world this year.

It's possible that things may get more difficult then they are now but things have been even more difficult for our foreparents before us and gotten better so I know that the wheel will turn and eventually we will persevere. We just need to keep on striving... keep on fighting... keep on believing... keep on hoping.. keep on holding on and never NEVER let go.

propaganda and disinformation..

it is the only source of straws to grasp in the storm of Fascist disinformation. and its minions of brain dead freep'n Moran's

if we are doomed to go down, i want to go down informed of the truth..

loose ends:

(ok, i started with minutia.... analyzed in detail and then ended with big titles and no analysis, but you'll get the point)

1. Cheney's energy documents. Is that over? What does it mean about the secrecy of the executive if he stonewalls to the end? What backlash if any will there be if the docs come out and reveal the worst case (starting a bogus war for corporate profits, planning an Iraq invasion before 9/11, etc)

2. The media. Will they start reporting the truth?

3. NSA spying investigative activities in congress.

4. Plamegate.

5. BBV.

6. Campaign finance/lobbying.

7. Continued procedural neutering of the democrats in congress.

The fact is that there IS an effort to make this a country By, For and Of the rich (and corporations). In order for that to be successful they need to keep control of the media, elections and legitimate dissent. I'd say they are doing a "heckova job."

If each of the above issues falls the wrong way (and is there any reason to assume they won't?) we are done. I invite arguments to the contrary.

And I will not go gently into that good night.

Do I have hope, no. Do I think that what I do, the actions I take, the words I speak will in the end make a difference? No.

But it has been engrained in me, burned into my soul to fight the good fight, to my death if need be. Not for my friend, family and fellow countrymen, but for myself. For I am one of those who will tilt at windmills, will speak truth to power, both here and elsewhere. And if I didn't do these things, even in the face of insurmountable odds, I would have betrayed myself and all that I hold dear.

That is why I continue to be active, to speak, write and march. I am fully cognizant of the fact that it will all be futile in the end. But to do any less I will not only let down those who I know and love, but most importantly I will be letting myself down. And that I cannot do.

Cope with reality. To help them,to comfort. Because I care.I have nothing better to do right now.
Yes I think things are fucked.but I also think we can always say no,and fight back.Even if it is futile It is what freedom is. Freedom is being able to refuse to be what you are told and programmed to be..
I think the Earth is ruined because we played games rather than self actualize and grow up..
I think people still need support to find what matters most to themselves and let go of the game of make believe and quit being hurt.

It's hard to do even in these last hours of sunlight.
I hope to free people from the game of ownership and domination imposed on us all from, birth ,even as we all die.

Because I can,I try.

you in being a defeatist and face the reality that their efforts are futile, and instead to give up and start focusing on what's important to them instead of fighting to save us all?

I truly hope, for all that is noble, that is not what you're saying and I misunderstood.

Fighting an enemy with superior manpower and firepower with no consience will get you killed if you have no weapons.

In this way the fight looks futile.

But if we can help each other to get past the social programming baggage,fears and relate to each other,allow each other to be who we are,we can survive maybe.We have been forced to stay children.

And like children we wait for authorites to fix things.

We need to trust in our own inner resourses and share them. And not trust the power structure and systems to care about us.

This takes support.

And Because I feel there are forces beyond human control that have been pushed to the limit,I think we are going to need each other more than we need any idealogy or beliefs in "saviors" "leaders" Organizations, if we are to make it at all. There is so much we do not know and we know enough to see danger.The luxury of make believe in sick social system like ours is made to manage our identites and time like a surrogate parent is fast fading away into the naked empire aiming it's guns at us ,we who dare to want a different future for ourselves than the one that makes the bullies and ego tripping assholes feel safe.We are seeing what it ALWAYS was.
We are going to have to grow up and let each other be free even if we do not understand the"other" and we are going to have to police ourselves and focus on what matters stoppoing abuse child abuse rape bullies ect... if we fail to do this with clarity and insight we will destroy each other in the name of "freedom" and "security seeking" without wisdom..

And to be wise one must know themselves, be honest,and know thier own motivations and limits and not play games.

This is terrifying to alot of people who never lived thier own life really.

I am watching the events unfold. It is the only place to find the truth and links to the truth. I tend to get sucked in now and then, like during the Alito hearings, that we can actually foment change. I guess part of me goes into denial about the state of our country from time to time. But I get slapped back to reality pretty fast.

Faux congressional hearings, faux representative government, faux democracy, faux one person one vote, faux terrorism, faux media. Everything that I thought was true pre-DU, turns out to be nothing but a HUGH pack of lies.

Once I realized who and what was really behind September 11, 2001, I have never been the same.

9-11 did change everything...but not the way he means. I was very angry about 2000, but when I understood (2/02)the truth about 9-11 nothing has been the same since. I need to be with like minded people that understand what is unfolding on a daily basis.

self destruct . . .

the problem is what we'll be left with when that happens, e.g. . .

- a bankrupt government
- a decimated economy
- a devastated environment
- universal hatred internationally
- an unsalvagable New Orleans and Gulf Coast
- millions and millions of very poor people with no hope

and a whole lot of other stuff that will be difficult, if not impossible, to fix . . .

out of town one way or another, but at this late date, the problems they leave behind are very nearly insoluble...even if we collectively want to, if we see the light tomorrow, we probably cannot reverse the environmental damage. If we take drastic steps to cut emissions, we will literally have no economy and crushing debt. Ask the South American countries how they are limping along with THAT type of problem. (Hint: they've been crushed for a couple of generations now.) The MOST we can hope for is that our neighbors and friends can come together enough to survive as pockets of sanity, complete with gardens, sharing the labor,etc. But that, even with enlightened people, is a pretty grim and backbreaking future.

it's the aftermath that sucks. we have to start to prepare for the aftermath, because apparently there isn't enough fortitude in american's now to stop this series of unfortunate events. so we have to wait for entropy to take its role and end this catastrophic regime. things are going to be bleak for quite a while. in fact, it might even get frighteningly violent in america (more so than usual) in the next few decades. we are going to need lots of friends from all sorts of places....

So go on writing your congressmen and voting the party line, they’ll listen to you.

See ya in the Camps.

Gee, tad overdramatic there? Hey, since you seem to wanna come off like you actually know better, then tell me oh guru, just what should we do then huh? Don't just come in here and rant off some negobutthead line without offering anything alternatively. I mean, you are better than that right? So what do you propose the strategy should be? I'm curious to see what kind of plan you have since you speak with such authority.

Thanks! :hi:

Vote Carter over Regan. But people don’t remember Carter had a workable energy policy and strong anti-trust laws in place. They remember his drunken brother and the Iran hostages.

What plagues us now? A piss-poor energy policy and the elimination of virtually any checks against Corporate power. Worked really well for twenty years, the longest economic growth period in history.

LOL to you! Fifteen years ago when I would argue for campaign finance reform, re-regulation of the industries supporting the infrastructure, reexamination of the tax codes to eliminate the loopholes for the rich and generally saying “you know, there are some pretty disturbing parallels between the rise of corporate power and the corporate-state in the movie Robo-cop,” when I was not being called a communist or crazy, I was dismissed. Oh, well…

Of course, we could go back to Eisenhower’s warning…but what’s the point NOW.

So here’s MY plan. Prepare about twenty years of Road Warrior society as the Infrastructure deteriorates. Then rebuild.

If you want a plan now follow Fendgold and support him for a presidential run. He, frankly, seems to be looking beyond Party positioning after 08’.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Yeah, that's the ticket, just sit back and watch our country completely be destroyed. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Hey, can you send that strategy to our representatives? Make sure they know the plan!!!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

to a twenty-five year-old problem…something to stick on a bumper sticker or in a signature. Here you go: “Vote Democrat in 06’”

I don't believe you will find anywhere something to back up your claim that I want a five second solution, so please don't shove that false spin crap in my mouth.

Furthermore, you still haven't told me what your plan is. If your plan truly is to sit back, do nothing, and wait for america's armageddon then I feel for you.

I'd rather fight. As long as it takes, as challenging as it is, at all costs until we restore our great nation, I shall be there fighting for it.

You, however, can sit back if you choose and watch the rest of us true patriots do something about it, no matter what it takes.

:hi:

when it could have been addressed within the confines of the democratic process. But an Actor, a Spook, a Pervert, and a Chimp were elected to the office of President. We are now faced with solutions “Outside The Box”. Those solutions will become self-apparent as the infrastructure deteriorates.

My plan, by the way, is survival.

:toast:
i especially love the actor, spook, pervert, and chimp line. i'd also like to say you are right on the money. apparenly america is on some sort of 50 year conservative zeitgeist, and it'll end up being the undoing of america. defiance is admirable, but one has to choose their battles. spitting at a hurricane is a sure sign of wasted effort.

ps: the courage to endure (aka. survival), is nothing to be ashamed of. in fact, it's quite patriotic. someone is going to have to provide the wisdom that was right 20+ years ago before.

And it is dark indeed, darker than most even here believe. We're not going to "reform" or "elect" our way out of our current situation; this is not 5 years in the making, more fundamental changes even within us need to take place before the phoenix of progress rises again from our current ashes.

We are a society in gut-wrenching transition. Faced with an age of limits (just around the corner), reactionary global forces have ruthlessly steeled their financial fortresses while successfully paralyzing the rest of us, the "to be left behind" (unwashed masses, rascal multitudes), paralyzing us with fear, with appeals to our baser natures, by breeding ignorance and apathy, by convincing most of us to sit on the couch while they rule. Their biggest fear is not Al Qaeda or Islamist militant nationalism, but us, every one of "us" who are not "them" and might come to take their priviledge and advantage from them.

Our best chance to rise up refreshed and anew, with chains of fascism and kleptocracy shaken off, is right here, in this beautiful thing called the internet. More of us connect faster to new and vitalizing ideas via the internet than any other means ever available to this sea of human brains. Each of us steps away from places like DU more firm in our values and thus closer to right action than if we stood truly alone. Like mirror neurons it won't be long before we're all unknowingly acting together -- and in that is transforming power, hugely transforming power.

I found the words from this 1981 work inspirational; maybe DU-land will as well (from Duane Elgin's Voluntary Simplicity: Toward a Way of Life that is Outwardly Simple, Inwardly Rich, pp 192-194):

... We are not alone in this time of change. Everyone we meet is in some way involved with his or her own personal struggle to respond to our time of challenge. Whatever our other differences may be, we are all participants in this historical rite of passage.

As individuals we are not powerless in the face of this monumental change. Opportunities for meaningful and important action are everywhere...the list is endless, since the stuff of social transformation is identical with the stuff from which our daily lives are constructed.

We are each responsible for the conduct of our lives -- and we are each unique. Therefore we are each uniquely responsible for our actions and choices in this pivotal time in human evolution. There is no one who can take our place. We each weave a singular strand in life. No one else can weave that strand for us. What we each contribute is distinct, and what we each withold is uniquely irreplaceable.

More than anything else, the outcome from this time of planetary transition will depend on the choices that we make as individuals. There are no preconditions to our choosing a revitalized path of civilizational development. There is nothing lacking. Nothing more is needed than what we already have. We require no remarkable, undiscovered technologies. We do not need heroic, larger-than-life leadership. The only requirement is that we, as individuals, choose a revitalizing future and then work in community with others to bring it to fruition. By our conscious choices we can move from alienation to community, from despair to creativity, from passivity to participation, from stagnation to learning, from cynicism to caring. We tend to think we are powerless, helpless, impotent. Yet the reality is that only we -- as individuals working in cooperation with one another -- have the power to transform our situation. Far from being helpless, we are the only source from which the necessary creativity, compassion, and will can arise. The time of civilizational change is already upon us. The autumn of the industrial era of development has already moved into winter. It is time to begin the next stage of our human journey.

Duane Elgin was talking from his intuitions of the coming age of limits -- of arable land, of drinkable water, of diminishing oil, of the ecological constraints upon raw consumerism -- and the need to transform ourselves along equitable and sustainable lines. Very prescient, and it appears we have taken the darkest of available paths, but as this is already an overly long post, I'll leave it there (and suggest you get the book!).

So, though I have hope, it is for my future grandchildren that I hope; I'm not so confident (not at all confident) that we'll see sufficient change in our lifetimes to stave off growing darkness and struggle. But each of us is left with choice. I've made mine; may you join us in the light!

If you assume that there's no hope, you guarantee that there will be no hope. If you assume that there is an instinct for freedom, there are opportunities to change things, there's a chance you may contribute to making a better world. That's your choice.
-- Noam Chomsky

You must be the change you want to see in the world.
-- Mohandas K Gandhi

Now. Or never.
-- Henry David Thoreau

As John Dean, and others on today's ACLU webcast panel pointed out, "Until there is some Congressional oversight, this President will be able to do whatever he wants."

We cannot tolerate another unauditable election on November 7, 2006---we must demand a VOTER VERIFIABLE PAPER BALLOT in conjunction with any electronic voting machine.

TAKE ACTION NOW at these web sites:

Dale Axelrod (dalea@sonic.net)----------------http://www.icountcoalition.org/
----------------------------------------------------http://www.verifiedvoting.org/
----------------------------------------------------http://www.votetrustusa.org/

GOTV and get as many dems to the polls as possible. We must make sure we get the message out to any who will listen and make sure whatever dem is running for any 06 election has full support. We must get voter verified papor balloting, yes. But was also at the same time need to start such a campaign with momentum that we minimize the threat the fraudulous voting causes by getting us out in such masses that flipping votes is no longer viable.

Use of terms like "too late" and "hopeless" and "dead" are egregious mischaracterizations of the position of those who say that the path we're on will take far, far more than one or two elections to change course. The myopic, short-sighted Pollyannas who're all for waving the flags of some candidate in an upcoming People Magazine popularity contest seem to be ignorant of the deterioration of justice and equity in this nation over the last thirty years. In that time, with only one period of merely slowing the rate of deterioration, not reversing it in the slightest, we've come to a point where it's accelerating. Despite this abundant evidence, we still have some apparently 'comfortable' checkbook pseudo-liberals who don't want to rock the boat. 'Moderates.' 'Centrists.' Bullshit. Just today's version of "good Germans."

Those are there words, used to describe their position. And I'm still waiting for some to come in this thread and explain what benefit they gain from being here then, if they consider our cause hopeless and futile.

That's the way a lot of us feel.

It doesn't mean we won't try to save as many fellow passengers as we can...but the PILOT is the only one who can stop the crash. We no longer feel we've got any control over the situation.

I agree with the poster who say "FEINGOLD." Not a bad choice, but then, NONE of the candidates I worked for since 1964 at age 12 were bad choices in my eyes. Most of them just never made it (McGovern, McCarthy, and so on), or got torpedoed in office (Carter).

40 years is a long time to watch the country circle the bowl: Shame on you for dissing some of us who have just gotten so tired of getting the living shit kicked out of us for so many years that we just can't muster more than what you see, or fail to see, in our actions.

Like the plane crash, we'll do what we can, but at the last minute, we're going to be belted in crash position. If you feel like serving drinks or passing out pillows, feel free.

those that say "It's hopeless, utterly utterly hopeless. Our country is lost, there is nothing we can do, wah wah, change me" "we are done, we've lost, we can't win"

And no. Not shame on me. Kudos to me for never giving up. Shame on those that give up the battle prematurely and proclaim to those continuing to fight that "it's over, it's hopeless, blah blah"

I'm glad you've fought for so long. And from what you say you are continuing that fight, which would exclude you from those this thread was addressed to in the first place. Which means I'm perplexed as to why you felt the need to preach in such a way and cast shame my way when it had nothing to do with you.

Hmm? :shrug:

...or hide in the sewers.

And by the way, those that continue to fight when all appears hopeless to them are in the majority here. I know most of them, and believe me, there's nothing we'd like better than some nice, young cannon fodder to pass the torch to. At 53 I'm getting way too old for this. It should have been fixed YEARS ago.

Allow this old agnostic to quote King James: "Judge not, lest ye be judged."

My thread was questioning those that are not only pessimistic (believe me, we all have right to be pessimistic), but go so far as to say the fight has already been lost, that the cause is hopeless, and that things are already too far gone for our efforts to have any meaning.

I am one that believes it has never gone to far, and that in spite of odds against us am still willing to press on, carry that torch and continue the fight until I myself have to pass the torch on.

I respect your words, your spirit and all you must've done in your time. I thank you for it all. But please understand, this thread wasn't geared towards you.

yourself.

Since you didn't want to put the effort in, I guess I'll help you out. Click on the link in the OP, then please pay attention to the 40-50 people that voted it is too late already. Since that poll in itself was the catalyst for this thread, clicking on it was probably needed in order to understand the context. (course, that's why I put it there)

:hi:

Not sure I understand your frustration? :shrug:

All the well though. Take care and god bless.

You'll believe any poll posted on the Underground.

Hence, the Quixote reference.

buddy!
:toast:

You can love the idea of America even as you admit that
its current government has been sabotaged beyond salvage
by twenty years of poisonous precedent, illegal powergrabs,
structural corruption, and agitprop media.

When we take America back, we will do it with a better
Constitution. One they can't sabotage.

Something along the lines of:

....Open-ness, Equal Time, and Tolerance

Open Government (term limits for intelligence operatives)
A Genuinely Fair and Neutral Media
And prosecution of counter-factual hate mongering, ala David Irving

----

You can't win a race without a horse. They shot our horse.
We need a new one.

arendt

I am here because it gives me a chance to try out an argument, before I trot it out on the stump. As for the question of being too late; I don't think it is ever too late, but it is going to be harder than if we had paid attention back in the 80s. The other side has a lot going for it, think tanks, discipline and money, oh yes God, they have God. So we are going to need to be smarter, quicker and work harder.

the opportunity to create a stronger greater america. NEVER is life hopeless

Oregon is what America was. That is how I feel about DU. Peace and low stress...mdmc:kick:

No, I haven't been to Oregon and haven't ever thought about it. Your posts makes me want to do some exploration, however, as it sounds quite nice :)

an ex- gave me a patch with that motto on it. Thanks for your post. Peace, God!

I adore Portland and Eugene ... homes away from home when I lived in the San Francisco Bay area. But Eastern Oregon (Umatilla?!?!) is a whole 'nother story. Ashland (moderate liberal) is about as far right as I'd ever want to see "mainstreamed".

peace and low stress,
mdmc

I'm tired of fighting or trying to wake people up. They're much more happy in their own reality. Until the majority of people wake up there isn't much we can do,
and If Katrina didn't wake people up I'm not sure what will. Let's face it our fellow Americans our selfish self-centered imbeciles. And our government is just a reflection of it citizenry.

I still contribute to progressive candidates, I vote and contribute to the DNC. But the fight has gone out of me.

The reason I come here is to keep myself informed so at least I have some idea of what the hell is going on. And to get information about simple things. Like today I learned that the Girl Scouts were actually a much more progressive organization than I thought. Now, I'll be more willing to support them and maybe get my daughter involved.

I'm changing my life style and discovering ways to purchase goods and services that are not going to go against my own interest. I've also changed my mutual fund last year based on info found here and moved my investment to a canadian fund. I had a 20%+ increase in market value.

I think DU is a wonderful insightful place filled with progressive people with progressive ideas and advice that have positively impacted my life.

I feel coming on here to express my anger and finding that others feel the same way, makes me feel that there might be some hope left after all. The information on here helps me to be better prepared to fight aganist my enemies, if and when I come across them.
Yes, sometimes I feel as if it is hopeless, I look at what is going on around the country and shake my head in shame that it has become so beek looking, and that there are still tons of stupid sheeple who think everything is great. I've been having these periods of doubt since the selection of 2000, and it was made even worse with the stolen election of 2004, and now since the Alito confirmation I've really felt this sense of hopeless hanging around me more often. Because I fear another vacancy or two on SCOTUS happening soon, and I see the rightwingers doing their little death chants, but I have to shake these fears off and keep telling myself that the nightmare will soon be over.
But with the Alito confirmation, I've seen a new side of me appear, one that at the mention of any conservative, who wants to kick their asses really bad, and wants to see these creeps get whats coming to them. A side that will work hard to see these assholes punished for their crimes.

better to work around your problems than beat your head against an unyielding force. if that means that you have to pick up the pieces and clean up after because the momentum is too great, then that is what it means. someone is going to have to rebuild, so it's going to be necessary to have those who can see long-term, plan accordingly, cement alliances, and create a new framework to help those who remain.

just because we aren't fighting exactly how you want us to doesn't mean we are doing nothing. in fact, i resent your implication that those who act different from you are worthless to the cause. maybe you need to realize that some of us are contingecy planning for an age you aren't ready to accept as reality. a collapse is coming, the question is which factor is going to be the last straw. so you can play the same, apparently losing, political game, or you can think outside the box and shed stubborn bull-headed thinking and prepare for post-constitutional america.

you think you can save this, well you are welcome to try. but there is one guaranteed weapon, 100% success rate, and that is entropy. when the system is beyond redemption, as you apparently do not believe it is yet, entropy is there to make it succumb. so many americans are at that point believing it is beyond redemption, hence so many non-voting apathetic independents, ecstatically religious republicans voting against their best interest in hoping to rapture to a better state, and increasing rate of democratic ex-pats. how is your fury on a message board going to reach them? they are waiting for the end, they are aching for the end, your passion isn't going to change their complete lack of faith in the system. at some point you are going to have to work with the people around you, and that includes their frustration and desperation -- pushing them away is just going to make your job harder.

all a message board can do is reach like-minded people to trade info, build relationships, and do organizing. that's great for getting many people informed, find safe networks, and organize people for various actions, even when things get worse. so, in preparation for the fall, we are going to need centralized locations for people to contact each other. we are going to need to build alliances all across the country, and world, to survive. remember, there's the courage to face danger head on, but there's an even greater courage to endure. and those who endure accomplish more in the grand scheme of things. for a simple analogy, think of it as others trying to build the safety net below while others joust on the high wire, both are needed, but one is critical.

I see you had a lot to say there, but not a whole lot that I would give credence to. You can type as many mile long posts as you want but that doesn't make giving up prematurely while the battle is long from over any less weak.

And I know you mean well but consider you severely misguided. Yes, we are all frustrated and aching for the end. Yes, many of us have completely lost faith in this current system. That is not the issue. Those are simply the reasons why we must fight, must not give up, must do whatever it takes for as long as it takes to take back america and restore her greatness. You say when things completely hit rock bottom you will be there as a survivor to help rebuild this great nation. Well that in itself is contradictory. If it is able to be rebuilt, than america is not dead, then hope is still there, then all is not lost. Furthermore we are all survivors. I will survive as well, but not by cowering in a a corner waiting for the war to be over. No. I will survive by fighting the great fight, doing my part, keeping my strength, and helping to do whatever it takes. I will survive though I fight, but might as well not exist if I give up the fight.

You say you resent the implication that those that act differently than me are worthless to the cause. Well that assessment is dead wrong. I never said I resented anybody for acting differently. I respect that many fight in their own ways, and will work with all towards our common goal. No, I did not say I resented those fighting in different way. In fact, I never said I resented anybody at all, so you just made that part up. What I do not condone, however, are those that want to prematurely and melodramatically declare that all hope is lost, that the fight is over, that the cause is worthless and that it is already too far gone. That is utter bullshit and a sign of weakness, though lord knows I don't expect everybody to be strong enough to handle what we face. This is a tough battle and it is well within reason that some can't handle it.

You imply that you believe the system is beyond redemption. But I must take issue with that confused notion as well. The system is not a human being, and therefore is not the pawn of redemption. The system is run by the people. By WE the people. And we are a great people. We always, always have the ability to be redeemed. That is why the fight is not over. That is why America has not gone too far. Because it is only the brainwashing and control of a handful that have caused this great nation to go so awry. But it is US, it is OUR efforts, OUR grassroots actions that can take the message to the people. It IS in OUR control, to inform, to educate, to fight, to resist, to empower and to stop at nothing to get the masses to understand what has befallen them. It is up to US to regain control, to give others the chance at redemption, and upon receiving that redemption can then get to work restoring our great system, our great nation. America will then be redeemed.

There is no resentment to those who fight. There is no resentment to those who do not yet know what they do and therefore continue to act in ways against their best interests. I will, however, lack respect for those that DO know and ARE aware to what has befallen us, but put their tails between their legs and choose not to fight because they consider the fight to be unworthy. That is my choice and my right as a fighter and a patriot. But I will fight for even them. I will rise up and carry the torch for them, I will work with my fellow patriots to win back this great nation for them, in spite of their weakness.

So understand this, the fight is not over nor shall ever be, as it is a fight that cannot ever be completely won or lost. It can never be too late and it can never be truly over. It is a fight of vigilance, a fight of constant awareness. It cannot be lost, as we can always be redeemed to regain control and achieve greatness. But it cannot truly be won permanently as we also too must always guard against the dishonorable and misintentioned convincing their way back to power.

So sit back and wait. But I'm confident that as you see us forge ahead and gain ground little by little, you will repent from your ways and rush to join with us with the new awareness that the battle can in fact be fought and that we can in fact restore this great nation to her idealistic beauty that she can hold. It may, however, take some time. But we have all the time in the world.

it is as expected. why am i surprised, considering your topic post and your previous replies? oh well, do as you must. looking ahead is short-sighted? building contingency plans is short-sighted? you are just grasping at straws and trying to rally the troops at the wall, but there are no enemy at the gates -- they are already inside ransacking the town, and the citizens opened the doors to them. you fight mere battles while others are preparing to fight wars. and yet you feel you must stand on your little raised spot and look down on us who do different. sometimes you can't save everything. sometimes there are casualties. sometimes retreat is the better part of valour. it may look like pessimism, like giving up, and it is -- but it is in preparation for the next stage.

like a junky on a self-destructive spiral there is but one real solution, let the momentum wear itself out, hit rock bottom, and rebuild. you feel you can save what has been a historical pattern since time immemorial. it is true when it is said no nation has ever survived decadence -- not by fighting within the system at least. it required hitting rock bottom, amazing leadership in those times of crisis, and awakening and fortitude of the citizenry in the face of catastrophy. what comes later *is* a different country. maybe it's a few pivotal laws changing the landscape of the nation entirely -- sometimes it's an entirely different system of governance. yet you want to reinvent the process to stave off a horrible fate for america. a beautiful dream, i agree, but i'm not going to waste my time isolated to this fight anymore. and that is why i am ok with people who are pessimistic, ready to give up, etc,. because many of them are calculating what's going on and deciding the best way to use their energy. i do not judge them. i understand how they feel, and i know there's more than one way to get things done -- including by means of not doing anything.

you are talking yourself into this sort of rallying frenzy. cute, whatever works for you. you keep moving goalposts on what constitutes the fight, the system, the country, etc., making it this eternal contest of wills between light and dark and the slightest flinch among ranks costs us ground. whatever... i think it's a rather unhealthy outlook on the situation. best of luck, though. but next time, topics like this are wholly unproductive -- chest thumping and finger pointing is generally a waste of time.

the end it is all still nonsensical.

My mind is open to all the possibilities before us. My mind is intellectually wise enough to see that this cause is not lost, that it requires our continued vigilance. No, misguided friend, it is you who has closed their mind to the possibility of victory as you've grown weary of the fight. But choosing to step aside due to mental fatigue does not end the battle or the hope for the rest of us. Furthermore, looking ahead and planning contigency is not short sighted. Using only the past and present to declare the outcome of tomorrow without having the ability to visualize change is. You have limited your thinking to right now. You have limited yourself to thinking all is lost and now it is just time to wait for the moment when it is time to crawl out from the cave and rebuild humanity. But that is not real. There is no predetermined future. Not now, not ever. The future holds what we determine it will hold, from our efforts. In the end, the future may be as bleak as you surmise, but it may be as bright as I surmise. The difference, is that I am open-minded enough to recognize the potential for both, where you are short-sighted to the point of paralysis of only seeing the one.

Take care, good luck, and know I will fight for you as well regardless of your support.