It is over in the conventional sense

I concluded that it is over, at least in the conventional sense. Yes I have pulled back from much of what I was doing because it is time to reevaluate tactics.

There are some things I have noticed.

1.- Muricans are way, WAAYYYY too comfortable,. and it has really not affected them YET. The old rule that you only have a revolt when people are hungry and have nothing to loose applies. Yes I know some on this group have nothing to loose an some of us would fight to the bitter end... but reality is, WE ARE the exception.

2.- It will take years for the conditions to develop where Joe six pack will start caring. Why? They sill have Sunday day football, a cold one and a huge mortgage. They won't get involved, for it does not affect them.

3.- I hate to say it, but there is collusion at the highest levels of power between the two parties. They are not keeping their powder dry in DC, for there is no powder to keep dry, they are keeping an illusion of a two party system that disappeared over the last five years, if not longer. I fear Nader was right in 2000, and truly there is no difference. Yes there are differences when they need to maintain the illusion, but in reality this is a game of smoke and mirrors.

4.- The United States I came to 20 + years ago is DEAD, RIP... and all that. Anybody care to read the eulogy? It has been replaced by a horror that we are just starting to understand. But the system is no longer there, again it is a simulation a simulacrum... and the faster we acknowledge it the better for all of us.

Is there hope? Yes, that is the last thing to die. That hope is in each one of us.. that the love for certain ideals will allow people to infiltrate that joke that is DC, or the parties and enact the changes, the hope that the people will wake up from the slumber, the hope that the very few voices still left in DC from the old system (Conyers, Kucinich, at times a couple in the Senate) will be able to bring life back and help us to bring back the Republic. Yet that hope is also now at risk of going away.

And yes, this realization leads to a certain frustration for I know evil will triumph for good men and women have failed to act. Some of us have acted, but just like Nazi Germany it has been precious few of us, with very little effect. ...so the dark night descends upon us... and lord knows how long it will last or who will survive it. Just like Hannah Arendt, now I know my job is to be a witness to history.

At least we still have the Sunday football and cold beer... :sarcasm:

truth be told

;-)

Now as to 1860.. yes I fear the comming hot civil war as well, we have been in the midst of a cold one anyway

:hug:


peace and solidarity

America is on the brink of an economic disaster that will make the Great Depression look like the Roaring Twenties. When that shit finally breaks loose, so will all hell amongst the population. They will be wanting blood, and won't stop until they get it.

Yeah, it's a rough way for this country to go, but it will wake everybody up, and put an end to America's delusions of empire.

having grown up in a country where people lived from hand to mouth, I can tell you what the response will be.. brutal, armed and efficient.

And I ain't giving up on her yet.

just reevaluating tactics... and when you have a brutal efficient response there is resistance... don't think there isn't... it just changes how it occurs...

You may want to look up the term micro climate and how it relates to politics... things change, even how you do business. One very efficient means of Resistance is to only shop with allies, and friends whenever possible.

tactic for years already. We should have been. However it is not always possible for those who are poorer.

it is an imperative now

1. I agree 100%. We who are most alert are amazed at what those around us seem unable to see. They have enough entertainment to stay passive. We can't imagine why. But lets be clear...the Colloseum entertained the mob for many years. DVDs and Big Macs go an amazingly long way. Reality TV shows and public Lotteries keep the illusion that YOU TOO CAN WIN! It's a tried and true formula for keeping people down. Loot at people's who have revolted and see how much further down the ladder they were. The US still has a long way to fall...and is doing so. But most won't feel the fall till they hit the bottom.

2. As above...it's happening very fast in a historical perspective...slow enough to boil a frog in the personal perspective. We take away your job but we give you enough TV with cut-away stories that you are distracted. Sure more and more get pissed and sad...but most of those just turn hopeless. Hopeless people don't usually rebel against the system. They just give up. And most of the most abused were the most abused before...as above the fall is still going on. And I suspect we're not going to see Ethopian suffering in the US any time soon in the general population (people from N.0. will argue differently). Their goal is to make us an underclass with no middle class...not to make us a starving mass. If we don't eat enough we won't have the energy to work at wallmart.

3. Yes I think the Corporate Party runs this country. But there are exceptions. Perhaps there are even exceptions in both parties. Politics has ALWAYS been about the haves controlling the have-nots. But there are differences in vision, in caring, in basic treatment and respect for people's rights. Noam Chomsky probably sums this up best...the two parties have a different way of treating our OWN people. The Democratic party is better for America. The two parties though both have pretty crappy records with the rest of the world. We will fight over welfare and heathcare but no one is going to buck the big corps when it comes to global oil. I think that this is enough of a difference to still fight for. But it's also worth realizing that our true enemy is a corporatist system. Save ourselves long enough to figure out how to fight this larger more shadowy enemy.

4. I agree we aren't who we were 20 years ago. And we never will be again. But I'm not sure we were who we were then anyway. We've been screwing people over since we came over on the Mayflower. We have a noble myth but a lot of shameful history and hypocracy. The Alien and Sedition acts, Vietnam, Japanese Internment, Wounded Knee...we talk the talk a lot more than we have ever walked the walk. So yeah...I think that the lessons I took for granted (based on fact or not) which were 100% certain about the bill of rights for instance, seem to have been turned on their head. I don't know how we get them back in that form (not that we were all that great about observing the form). But I do think we can reclaim or re-create basic humanitarian awareness in our culture. In fact I still have hope we can become better than we were.

But as you say...not if good people don't act. We must act...we must become aware and active and not give in to hopelessness. We must reach the tipping point and we must not give in to fear. It is ooooooh sooooo ironic that today Bush uses FEAR of Terra in exact contradition to the message of Kennedy. But we don't have to forget. We don't have to give in. I acknowledge that my generation may have lost this battle but I'm not going to cede the war because I want those who follow me to have a chance. I also keep hope because sometimes if we can just hold some ground long enough...the arrogant fools have a great historic propensity for self destruction. They just can't keep it together...their greed and betraying ways ultimately turn against them.

And for myself I'll keep speaking out because I ultimately remember one thing that Bushco can't make me forget. It is better to live on my feet than to die on my knees.

P.

that is all

carefully :D

Both Dems and Reps have been enthusiastic supporters of post WW II American imperialism, but at least the Dems want to share the loot with the general public instead of just the Bush "Pioneers."

I am curious if you have thought about keeping a diary/journal of these times ala Berlin Diary (and others). I have kept what little sanity I have by stepping back and trying to be merely an observer, taking notes, throwing in my own commentary etc. It just seemed the right thing to do... to document this mess as seen through my eyes. I have amassed five years or so of more or less daily commentary and other info. I have often wondered how many people are doing the same, or similar.

as you said, we need to. IN fact the notes are being kept by hand

the parties are not the same.

Don't make waves is a common thought in both groups - it does not mean they are te same.

Getting Joe Six Pack to care is tough.

Folks think they "know" and that that knowledge means they are making a rational vote.

One needs media a bit more neutral than the hate Gore because he is boring 2000 media and the hate Kerry because he has money but "pretends" to care 2004 media.

One also needs Dem leaders with spine and a plan - a Clinton or a Newt.

The super rich/super corporate can be defeated - but it will take more than Blah personality elected Dems who only want to avoid mistakes.

At least that is my opinion!

:-)

even in face of seemingly-insurmountable odds.

and i do know, and deeply grieve how insurmountable.


peace and solidarity, always

repeatedly, the first paragraph of the declaration sums it perfectly, and damn it I cannot write that well on a good day.

these days you can get locked up for quoting Thomas Jefferson

One positive thing people can do no matter what: join or start a community farm (CSA)

You will ensure a clean supply of food for your family, establish a local democracy in miniature, and support an oasis of environmental health in the place where you live

http://www.chiron-communications.com/farms.html

To think i was going to waste my time trying to make things better - this willfree up a lot of time.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

The first, as you've employed it, is to become more fully aware of the "way things are." The second is, with such awareness, changing that reality and making 'real' that which is an ideal or goal. I fully agree that, in essence and in truth, Nader was correct in 2000 - or at least far more correct than the illusionists, denialists, and deluded. One cannot realize an ideal without realizing the reality. Sadly, we're living in a "perception is reality" era - an era of manipulation of perceptions. Pennsylvania Avenue and Madison Avenue have become one - a road to ruin.

in some ways, things in America today are both far worse and far better than at any time in my living memory.

I would assume that you are originally from Poland, and do not know how old you were when you left. But, America today and Poland under Communism were in some ways remarkably alike. Both populations are statistically overfed. In 1980, the World Health Organization stated that the Poles had the world's highest per capita calorie intake. I recall, as well, that Poles had the second highest income of any nation in the then Soviet bloc behind Czechoslovakia. Yet, Poland and the Czechs followed by the rest threw off the Soviets, so too shall Americans throw out our version of a One Party state.

Some things are bad, and getting worse. We have perhaps the most reactionary group of elected officials than at any time since the 1920s. No question. Most of them are working hard to reverse the basic social gains adopted by FDR's New Deal. They are succeeding. Their foreign policy is Cold War paranoid and aggressively evangelical. It seems to have been formulated by a latter-day John Foster Dulles who's down 60 IQ points from the original.

Unlike the 1950s, however, the United States has lost both its hard power to project overwhelming military power and its ability to persuade, lead, and command respect. In the long run, that latter failing will be the more destructive; as our post-World War Two empire and hegemony continue to contract, the world's last rogue superpower is becoming internally more unstable, and a genuine threat to world peace and collective security. "Collective security" seems such a quaint term in the age of unilateral preemption. These are scary times, and I can see things flying altogether out of control. Boom, there goes another city -- and we'll become jaded and cynical about that, too, if it happens often.

On the other hand, Americans are losing their illusions, and that can be a very good thing. I have never seen such clarity of thought and purpose on the part of the Left opposition. Ideas that used to be radical fringe -- the Administration is routinely lying to us, they don't have the majority's best interests in mind, and war isn't necessarily a just cause when we wage it -- are now rather mainstream. That's extremely unusual, aside from a short period in the mid-1970s right after the collapse of the Nixon Administration.

Finally, I detect something unprecedented in my lifetime. The old Left-Right continuum is breaking down in the face of an alien Other, the neocons, who have colonized much of Washington. Honest conservatives -- CIA and military officers, career bureaucrats, traditional Republicans -- are learning how to think critically about the use and abuse of power, which has been a difficult adjustment for them. They are capable of insubordination, revolt, and rebellion, if need be, just as was the Polish Army. On the other hand, progressives are learning that the Right has no monopoly on patriotism, and American progressives are tapping into a new source of strength in their efforts to protect their country's traditions. The Liberals and moderates are now the true conservatives. The word Fascist is no longer abused when used to describe the neocon Other.

George Orwell made the distinction between patriotism, which is a constructive pride in place and history, and nationalism with its need to "smash a boot in the face" of "inferior peoples." We are all patriots now, and that is a very good thing.

Please don't condemn us, Nadine. These trying times bring out the worst and best in Americans, as must have also been the case in Poland three decades ago.

- Mark

not Poland, my father came to Mexico in 1947 thanks to the Hitler travel plan... and I am not condemming, just making an observation

Now that you made the comparison to Poland, you are correct, the people who went through the labor revolt knew that the voting booth was not the way to go... they had to constantly reevalute tactics and techniques... this is what we fail to do here. Eveybody is still going next election it will be better, next election this, next election that... we are at the point where people should realize the road to freedom, as it were, will not be through a ballot box. Why? well as long as the dems do not recognize the elections are not clean ON A NATIONAL scale, forget it... and they won't becuase they are afraid.

Time to reevaluate tactics folks.

Mexican elections are synonymous with corruption. That has not been the case here since the time of Tammany Hall and the other urban political machines at the turn of the 20th Century.

Of course, the 1960 election may have gone to Kennedy because in Chicago, Mayor Daley and the Giancano mob partners "created" tens of thousand votes. But, I think most Americans viewed that as the exception until 2000.

Now, many of us are far more skeptical, and perhaps that's a sign of maturity. I'll tell one thing, if the GOP vote exceeds expectations next year, the illusion of governmental legitimacy will be altogether pulled away. I hate to think about what's on the other side of that river.

are... let me tell you, American Diebold machines can teach some lessons though.... by god, Mexican graft and corruption has nothing on what is going currently on DC and what goes on during elections these days.

One saying from Mexico applies here now, We are all part of the corruption problem

La corrupcion somos todos.

So, Stokely Carmichael didn't originally make that saying up? Mas Yanqui expropriaccion.

Pardon. Mi espanol es peligroso.

go from here. If we lose and there is any chance that it is a fraudulent count, that will be the end of voter trust for more than just those of us that already know. However, I believe that in Poland they still went to the polls and voted even though that it would not work. I for one have always voted since I voted for JFK in 1960 and I will continue to vote.

fraudelent exercise... if nothing else it is my duty... but trust in the system is completely gone

history which gives me hope. Empires fall and most of them for the same reasons: military overextension. We are there.

and I know how dark things are right now... yes it will turn, but on how many piles of dead bodies?

we can to save as many as we can. It is also very hard to be a person who cares about our actions in other countries ( I watched The Constant Gardener and was sick for a week after) and one who loves this country for the classic democracy that was the dream. Many times I feel torn between wanting to see this nation down and wanting the good things to continue. I do hear what you are saying and I do find things that can be done but they often feel like nothing - unless more people are doing the same things.

As one who was not a history major, could either of you (or anyone) recommend a few good books. I'm trying to find books by authors who try to get the history right, but that read almost like novels. Examples of books with a good deal of history that I've enjoyed:

--How the Irish Saved Civilization... (Cahill & Donnelly)
--The Year 1000: What Life Was Like... (Danziger & Lacey)
--The Killer Angels... (Shaara)
--Alone in the White House... (Reeves)

Any recommendations anyone? Thank you.

any of his books on US history are approachable and enjoyable, and not too deep in the scholarly side which can be at times rather boring.

I just ordered A People's History of the United States: 1492 to Present. This is exactly what I had in mind. Your help is greatly appreciated.

Start listening to what other tables are talking about, and it AIN'T pretty for the Repubs...

Never in all my years have I heard do much political talk outside of political gatherings...the American sheeple ARE starting to mutter....alot

I have heard the talk and all that talk is NOT traasfering to anything substantial.. people AINT'T hungry enough yet.

with SO MANY dissatisfied, maybe we can beat the Diebold spread.

However, in my 46 years on this earth, I have not EVER heard the amount of political discussion over dinner, over lunch, in lines, and WITH STRANGERS.

I think it bodes as well as it can...revolt, at times, is sneakly and quiet, as we have seen recently. Maybe we can take it back the same way, through stealth anger.

People are tired of spook politics...REALLY tired.

after all the diebold spread is not something that our party leaders (save Conyers bless his heart) are even willing to speak off. I will vote in November, but I ain't holding my breath... again I am considering how we will have to change our tactics.

There is no chance of beating the spread. Kerry won the last election by 10M votes at least. Gore won in 2000... and who sits in the whitehouse?

We simply have to get our vote back under control. The vote is what made America great, and now it's been stolen. There's our problem right there, in a nutshell.

Imagine the country today after a year of Kerry in charge, or Gore for five. Just imagine. It'd be a whole different world, eh?

Well, the crooks stole it - twice, and that's why we are where we are.

had taken your approach. The fact is, people with truth and\or justice on their side have many times resisted against great odds and won. I do think that until there is a military draft and\or tax hikes, the great American middle class will sit on the sidelines, b/c they don't have a dog in the fight.

However, this is not a "War on Terror." It is a "War for Empire" and every empire in history has eventually fallen. So take hope.

what actions I have already taken against this new world order. Again, read what I said, and what you just wrote. Until that Middle Class gets involved, and starts paying attention it is time to reevaluate tactics. Even Nelson Mandela will point this to you... he and his group reevaluated tactics on a regular basis.

that the citizens of the Empire are always the last to know and care about the situation in the Colonies because they reap the rewards of comfort.

This is the first time in all of human history when an Empire has the technology to achieve global control.

and it is amazing how well the authors put it.. what Will it take for fantastic thinking and essential nation thinking to stop? Who knows, but we are in for the crisis of any empire in decline.

at the heart of the Empire have resisted on such a massive scale. (Check news accounts of the Feb. 15, 2003 demonstrations against the war on Iraq to refresh your memory.)

corporate empire, with no boundaries, is rapidly bringing the real people of the US down. There are many middle class families in our Democratic area of the country that realize that they are the target. Bankruptcy, foreclosure, closing business, farm sales, children who cannot go to college due to cuts, parents who need taking care off with out resources due to cuts. They feel threatened but I am not sure they know who to blame because for sooooo many years the pubs have encouraged them to blame the "welfare queens". It is always interesting to me to watch their attitude change when they see the danger of becoming "queens" in their own life.

taken, but I have a GOOD CLUE about what actions I have already taken (weekly peaceful assembly to express dissent) and what actions I plan to take, e.g., civil disobedience, tax resistance, jail, hunger strikes, etc.

lets just say that we are startign to pay the price ok.

in History (Modern European) which provides a lot a consolation. Resistance can be as small as wearing a peace sign -- I wear one every day -- or as large as marching on Guantanamo, as several anti-torture activists did just before Christmas.

Personally, myself, I think we need to "Impeach Cheney First," then go after the Criminal in Chief.

Think big, and I mean real big...

Also read about the fall of the Romanovs, we might even see something on that scale.

is like the two decades immediately preceding the U.S. Civil War. One of the foremost U.S. historians (James McPherson) refers to that conflict as the "Second American Revolution."

So I'm expecting that the current thesis-antithesis antagonism between the various bi-polarities will not be resolved through strictly electoral means.

that is the first thing we have to recognize

Sorry to keep reposting this, but if the shoes fit....

And even many on Du would prefer denial to facing it. Denial is a lot easier. Sure..we have slow and now faster obvious descent into fascism. BUT this country may be different in the way it is different. There are so many people here from other countries- (you yourself?) recently and within their family memory. IF any country has a chance it's this one. There are so many smart people here. So many brave ones. And yes-your basic premise-until the masses of the middle class get clued on to the big lie-nothing will change. I take heart from your, and mine and others non-denial. I despise denial. I want to be awake. And it's not over-when I'm not feeling in despair about it-it is fascinating to watch. I never thought I'd live in interesting times. I was wrong. I'm prepare myself for the worst-but I don't leave out the best happening either. That would be letting "THEM" when by default. Not so fast.

it is natural to man to indulge in the illusions of hope. We are apt to shut our eyes against a painful truth, and listen to the song of that siren till she transforms us into beasts. Is this the part of wise men, engaged in a great and arduous struggle for liberty? Are we disposed to be of the numbers of those who, having eyes, see not, and, having ears, hear not, the things, which so nearly concern their temporal salvation? For my part, whatever anguish of spirit it may cost, I am willing to know the whole truth, to know the worst, and to provide for it.”

I get your drift but you be more specific? what is it exactly that has changed so much in 20 years? 1986 was'nt THAT long ago. Not like the 50's or something. So what has changed that much since then?

people will tolerate torture, will tolearate wars, will tolerate anything that will give them the ilusion of safety

But it could all change tomorrow. As ClassWarrior often says, NGU.

Unfortunately there's not a safe way to discuss it, if i were to speak my mind first I'd either get banned from here or severely reprimanded, then a visit from the ss, who would probably drag me off to a lockup somewhere never to be heard from again.

I haven't any illusion about our situation, but what is infuriating is the absolute apathy of people i see around me. Inthe last election if we could have drug just a few million of our brain dead beer and footbal buddies off the damn couch and into the polls, we would have crushed these idiots.

I hope it doesn't go as far as I believe it will, but, at least my eyes are open as well as many others here.

yes, its all about tactics.

The parties are dead, compromised - even though
there is about a 20% minority of decent elected officials
still in national office.

The middle class is clueless, both from denial and
from being worked to death and being scared to death.

I think the way to reach them is to ask them about
their kids' life chances. People understand that the
whole country is tanking. Get them to talk about how
their kids will have no jobs, no healthcare, no pensions,
no life.

Peace,

arendt

I do my best to contribute to media orgs that can spread the truth and I personally tell the truth to everyone I know, even the repugs. I quit buying gas from Exxon, quit buying crap at Wal-Mart and buy "Blue" whenever and wherever I can.

For me, I feel like there is no giving up, I've learned too much. Hell yeh it's depressing as hell to know our country tortures, lies about nuclear weapons, starts fake wars, colludes at the highest levels of gov't and business but, I will never just shut up about it.

I know you won't either so we at least still have the most important thing, ourselves. That's not meant to cheer anybody up and it won't put food on the table, it's just a fact.

Yes, there is an older version of the U.S.A. that is eroding away. That's what we all see.

A lot of it is rot and things settled inadequately the first time we dealt with them as a society. This past 15 years has been a Civil War, following on inadequate compromises and guerilla warfare as went on then about slavery- the Missouri Compromise, the Kansas-Nebraska Act, Bloody Kansas, the John Brown raid, whose equivalents filled the Forties to the Eighties.

This fight is in the stages that the Civil War was in in the late winter and earliest hint of spring of 1865. Both sides are incredibly worn down, the original reasons for it all seem strangely hollow and smaller than once imagined. No footsoldier individually senses that the war is over and all fear there is still a year or two of it, but there's a collective sense that a subtle divine judgment has fallen. No one of them or their generals can really discern the objective or psychological basis for this sense that the South is near an end, no individual set of facts seems compelling and the aggregate doesn't analyze either. There's a strange paralysis on both sides in March 1865 as they struggle with this sense of the situation around Richmond and Petersburg and in Sherman's wake in the Carolinas.

Joe Sixpack is not of importance in our present conflict. He's worn out. This is a fight between two elites about things he has to conform to, whichever side wins.

For us partisans, there's a lot of the Hegelian synthesis going on. We've been Thesis and Antithesis to each other, both inadequate and partially right, partially wrong. Republicans have imagined we could retain the old industrial/agrarian/colonial order of the society and its caste system, its feudal European ideologies. Democrats have been slow to recognize and embrace the fullness of things necessary to counter that scheme, or to recognize and accept the solutions that are needed in the various areas of American life in the long run. Leftism isn't enough on its own, activist liberalism has some limits as well.

A great deal of what has been going on for the past 15 or so years is a slow recognition, conflict, and purging of the corruptions that were incorporated in American life during the Cold War. Iraq is the arena in which its Cold War anti-Stalinist militarism was drawn, engaged, and is being eroded, for example. The whole Plame-FISA-yellowcake-torture scandal melange all has a common root in Congress's abdication of power to the Presidency of the right to declare and wage war in the late Forties. Gay marriage is the final battleground of the Gender Wars. Vote disenfranchisement laws and corrupt elections are the last great battlegrounds of the race-based Civil Rights conflict. The whole theocracy/dominionism stuff is all about the status of exclusivist theism in a Modern world where religion must evolve to universality, i.e. decorrupt itself of its materialisms and return to its basis in mystic experience.

In the end politically this fight roots in the Constitution. Intellectually, to me it all comes down to our choice to realize all the guarantees of citizenship for all Americans and engrain the spirit of wholeness of citizenship of all in American life.

The land feels barren and burned down, its various institutional corruptions are everywhere exposed and the angry are everywhere fighting to preserve or destroy them completely. It is something of a duty on our side to go out and fight to destroy these now vulnerable corruptions individually and fully. Whether it's presstitution, or election fraud, or gay adoption rights, or oil company collusion, or more CEO theft and offshoring of jobs for a small immediate profit. Or telling our Senators to take back war powers from a Presidency that considers them nasty toys and merely insults and abuses other nations with them.

There is also another, perhaps higher, duty that some number of us has to feel called to, which is to start work on the Reconstruction that lies ahead. In the end this was a fight for an enlargement of human dignity and the desire to live it to the full measure available in a Modern world. We need people out there who live out and explain to the masses the new freedoms and where the new boundaries and challenges of the next era are. One individual- a Lincoln, an FDR- will not suffice to secure and create the peace and sense of renewed social contract this time around. It must be a group of enlightened Americans found in all significant arenas of American life who work together.

In this fire-scorched and violent cacaphony of a public arena, we can't forget that it was and is not always so. There were times of peace, moments of serenity and boundness to serene voices quietly speaking in it. Those moments also measure...arguably they measure more, are greater, are those we remember. Abraham Lincoln's Gettysburg Address is greater than all the cannon fire of the Civil War together. We cannot finally separate the two, the animal slaughter and the Higher Calling. That is the full nature of our life on this Earth with each other. But to despair is to fall away from that Calling, to be deaf to how it never fades, to lose that it lies in the Silence over the wastes and pile of corpses and between the crash of artillery shells. Evil wins whenever we forget this, when we stop feeling the songs and the tears and the passion that Matter. In truth, Evil desperately wants that transcendent passion to become manifest in the world and conquered or controlled by it.

Bushco and Its Infamy are really a rear guard action for the old feudal patriarchal upper class white Xian male ruling class. Their social order has long been outmoded and though they have successfully co-opted ethnic and religious minority sycophants to prop them up for awhile, their system is simply unsustainable. We just have to figure out how to keep them from taking us down with them.

the present to help ensure that the history you witness while having given up is far brighter than it would be if all of us chose that path of helplessness.

I can sympathize with your situation and understand where you are coming from, but this ain't over. Not by a long shot. When you witness the history that grassroots efforts kept fighting, fighting and fighting and little by little chipped away at the seemingly immovable object, until their momentum grew, their voices heard and their restoring of honor and integrity this great nation I will be awaiting your thanks in my inbox.

No one will be sending a thank you note to your inbox because we're all working our asses off to bring down this regime. Nadin's realistic assessment--the fact that we don't have critical mass to accomplish what needs to be done in order to restore democracy in the United States--is not the same as sitting back and bitching and moaning.

Let's not be pollyannas about this. Our national election was controlled by the ruling party and no one has taken to the streets in outrage and despair. I live in one of the most liberal hot spots in the nation (lower manhattan) and when I wore a black armband after the election (a tiny, insignificant act) people thought I was being melodramatic. Demonstrations that are hardly covered by the media (which is controlled by the ruling party) and a bunch of privately grumbling liberals who are 'outraged' will not solve this problem.

Anyone who has acted boldly already in this political moment knows very well how IMMOBILE the liberal population is. Anyone who is already "fighting, fighting, fighting" knows that people are not willing to do what it takes. The majority of liberals are holding their noses and waiting. Waiting until the next election even though they know the elections are rigged. Waiting until common sense returns. Waiting and seeing. Waiting until people realize (realize the obvious). Waiting to be rescued by a politician. Waiting for someone to start something so they can theoretically act-- but the 'something' will never be good enough or ideological pure enough or safe enough (Will I have to risk arrest??? Will I be called a terrorist? Will I be put on a no fly list?)

And that's when the rational fears come in to play. No, one action will probably not restore democracy. No, the action will not be ideologically pure. And certainly the action will not be safe. You will risk arrest. You will risk being called a terrorist (although the radical right wing already calls you terrorist because you are progressive). And you may risk being put on a no fly list or being put under surveillance. And at that moment liberals realize that we don't live in a democracy anymore and that ethical political action is already dangerous and instead of being incensed and taking to the streets... they go back to waiting and hoping someone else will do the job.

Anyone who is organizing in this moment knows this terrible fact.

It's not over and I'm glad you're willing to fight, but the majority of the people are not willing to fight yet and we have to recognize the reality of this dilemma.

tactics. What we have been doing is changing nothing... and the dynamic continues inexorably forwards, because we are stuck in what is not working... we need to change tacts and we need to reach a population that is very much asleep at the switch and god dammed it, too comformtable...

Oh and we do need folks to recrod what is going on, for in the end a history of this will have to be written too.

I knew when the Supremes put in Bush in 2000 and not one Democrat stood up against it (except the Black Caucus) that the fat lady was doing her Ethel Merman imitation.

Face it folks, this has been going on a long time. Iran/Contra should have killed the Bush I presidency, but certain Dems whitewashed the affair. Dems controlled BOTH houses of Congress back then, if I remember correctly. If they had done their jobs then, we would not even be dealing with this piece of shit son of his right now. Period. It was just like now; the ones in charge of the party were in cahoots with them even back then.

And they are still with them today. I can't think of one single IMPORTANT thing that Bush has tried that has been blocked. Not one. You can try and say stuff like ANWAR drilling, but does that really compare to unprovoked attack of a defenseless country, or the trashing of our 4th amendment right to due process and warrants? They don't compare to me.

Look who let them off the hook for Iran/Contra, Lee Hamilton. Look who whitewashed 911 for them, Lee Hamilton. Yes, Nader was right. Him and millions of us that said the same thing but still puled the lever for Anyone But bush. No matter who won in 2004, this country would still have been lead by a member of the Skull and Bones. What are the odds of that? 300 MILLION citizens in this country and 2004 came down to a race between two people from the most exclusive club imaginable? I don't believe in coincidences like that, anymore than I believe the 911 Official Conspiracy Theory.

As far as I can see, the only thing that is going to wake up Right and Left Both is some sort of catastrophic success to hit the Homeland and hit it hard. katrina wasn't enough. 911 and Anthrax wasn't enough. If it all isn't a big show and attacking iran has consequences, maybe planes dropping bombs on American homes, or God forbid, ICBMs obliterating cities will finally do the trick.

Or they will still stick thier heads in the sand.

Either way it will be finished. It cannot go on like this. I cannot stand by and see the Constitution and my country destroyed much longer and retain my sanity or my humanity.

> No matter who won in 2004, this country would still have been lead by a
> member of the Skull and Bones. What are the odds of that? 300 MILLION
> citizens in this country and 2004 came down to a race between two people
> from the most exclusive club imaginable? I don't believe in coincidences
> like that, anymore than I believe the 911 Official Conspiracy Theory.

Sometimes people can't see the forest for the trees.
This is not a spur of the moment situation folks ...

I'm not a Polyanna, but I think you are overlooking some of the more positive signs of light in all this.

In the 1980's and 90's, these issues were totally ignored by the democrats as well as the GOP. Clinton was a master at sweeping dirt under the carpet, and thus he did as much damage as GW Bush has done in the Big Picture.

BUT something has changed. Until very recently, people who had concerns such as corporate power, the demise of the middle class, etc. etc. etc. were isolated and overlooked. If you were a progressive -- or even a caring liberal -- you felt like a lonely beast, or were part of a very small group.

Today many of those issues are out in the open, they have become major political issues and even Joe Sixpack is starting to wake up, as the chickens come home to roost.

That's NOT to say that everything is hunky-dory. Far from it. But the movement of progressives is getting larger and more mainstream by the day. And at some point the dunderheads in the Democrat Beltway Establishment are going to have to become more responsove -- or else they will be sent back to the ranks of private citizens and unemployed strategists.

http://www.joebageant.com/joe/2005/12/the_simulacran_.html

Joe is a Bud of mine
and we both want to get the hell out of here

wiley

and it will be a long goddamn time before I'm ready to give up on their futures.

Not to mention, my disabled hubby can't live any where else. And no way could I herd my two grown sons.

That pretty much means, the Cabal is stuck with me.

NGU

It is time to reevaluate what we are doing though and change tactics....

Me, taking notse is part of it... and keeping a historical record, for my two nephews who are way too young to ever remember this if it is over in a timely fashion

some sad truths