Want to know the problem with the abortion debate?

Well, other than the obvious -- that is a wedge issue which many voters latch onto with their very lives while ignoring the issues which may cost them the same lives.

The problem is that many think abortions can only and do only take place with the help of a doctor in a clinic designed for such purposes. That method is safest, but not the only. Since the beginning of time women have been helping women with all matters of birth control including abortion.

While banning all doctor/clinic-oriented abortion will make the process more difficult and less safe, it will do nothing to prevent abortions. Women will do what women always have done and will help themselves. The fallout deaths of both women and fetuses from such a change will be (and should be) laid on the doorsteps of the religious zealots.

will have their boyfriends take care of matters with a coat hanger because the girl is too afraid to tell mommy and daddy she's pregnant; and thanks to mommy and daddy she is ignorant to birth control as is the boyfriend who also comes from a fundie family. I'd suggest she get a DNA test to make sure daddy's not the daddy. I'm relaying a MS scenario here, but ain't it grand to restrict professional medical service because you hate in the name of Jesus Christ.

They get the kids to swear to virginity until they are married and then the kids, with hormones raging, engage in every kind of sexual activity known to mankind; look mommy and daddy in the eye and lovingly tell them they are still virgins.

They rely upon these people.

on edit: we will need do something like the dutch "abortion ship" if we must. pick up the women and sail out past the territorial limits, perform the procedures and return, just like the gambling ships. After all if it's good for the goose, it certainly is good for our gander.

http://archives.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/europe/06/15/ireland.ship02/

and you have the republican trinity: Gawd, Guns, and Gays. Maybe not really single issue voters, but those who latch onto a party/candidate on these three tired-ass issues when there is so much more at stake.

I think "a woman's right to choose" is somewhat a misnomer because she can be talked into an abortion by a man who accepts no responsibility. Let's call it "a person's right to choose.

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

there should be financial repurcusions for these decisions.

You will also have women who have been raped, incest, infants born with medical deformities that will not live long out of the womb etc....

The people that are directly responsible for getting these laws changed MUST be held financially accountable.....this is the only thing the neo-con bastards understand...

....these women that are forced to continue these pregnancies must file suits for financial support against these individuals and the state....the state will lose many of these cases (this is just my feeling) because they imposed these laws on the women.....


And unfortunately, I think you are correct the death toll of women and fetuses will go through the roof...and once again I think there should be lawsuits concerning these deaths....

keep hitting the repug bastards in the wallet.....let the religious zealots foot the bill for their draconian laws....

I mean it is an obsession. Or Maybe I just don't get it, compared to all my rich acquaintances. Most of whom are indeed materially wealthy.

And the graphic pictures. There's some guy (I heard him on a Podcast) who's saying 10 and 12 year olds are being raped and their rapers then take them to get abortions. Before Roe v Wade there were news accounts of women found dead after trying to give themselves coat hanger abortions and much was made of that - people actually marched with coat hangers much in the same way pro-lifers march with photos of fetuses.

Both sides used the most emotionally charged aspects of the procedure and that's a horse that can't be put back in the barn. I'm old enough to remember when lucky women could get their doctors to find a reason to give them a d&c and it stayed a private medical procedure.

This is how the law should be written based on privacy....

<snip>
stayed a private medical procedure
<snip>

there is a block of the electorate/populace on each side of the aisle for whom it is a hot button issue and who love to hate people on the other side of the issue.

that humans in America will see this " un-winnable propagandized issue" for what it is.....a gross attempt to trick, manipulate and politicize a "private issue".....the thought that this "administration" doesn't even want me to have a "morning after pill".....yet they can send American citizens to die in a war over oil profits ....that "morality" escapes me.....
Terri Schiavo was eventually "seen for what is was"....devide them....get them fighting over this so they won't notice the REAL issues....LIKE SELLING OUR PORTS TO THE HIGHEST BIDDER.....PEOPLE CAME TO THEIR SENSES OVER THE CLINTON IMPEACHMENT AS WELL....IT WAS THE WILL OF THE PEOPLE TO ...NOT...IMPEACH his rating up over 60% at the time
I WANT TO BELIEVE IN THE GOOD Senses OF PEOPLE.

who believe in spreading the seed because that is God's will & it will increase membership in their religion or race(remember Hitler's aryan womens camps). A means of control over women who are viewed as property. These same 'culture of life' folks do not believe in contraception or sex education - look at the abstinence program taught in schools for example. It wasn't too long ago that you couldn't even buy contraceptives. That is what they mean by the culture war. If it were up to them, male masturbation would be a crime. If the religious right were sincere they would try to do things to prevent a pregnancy to begin with - but that's not their motivation. Once the child is born they do nothing to help the mother. In fact they do the opposite by fear-mongering about 'welfare' queens & are cutting funding for most health & support policies for mothers & children.

An irony I've observed is the anti-illegal immigration attitude the RR has. Most immigrants are from Mexico & other Catholic countries who have a high birth-rate & do not believe in contraception or abortions. You would think that they would be pleased to have them in the US, but noooo...
Could it be more of an anti-Catholic than anti-immigration. I'm always amazed when some of my catholic relatives vote for religious right candidates.

this Administration is about to go down in flames taking a Republican controlled Congress down with it.
Lying, thieving, cronyism, death and deficits as far as the eye can see.
The Economy in shambles, borrowing money to spend money to make the economy look good.

Iraq is a dismal failure, proof of a conspiracy to destroy Wilson is just about to come out in court, Bush's Ok of terrorists sympathizers having control of 21 American ports....

Now two states pass or are about to pass horrific anti-abortion laws knowing a Supreme Court battle will take place. How convenient.

It will take time for this to get to the main stream media..just about time for political ads to come out and for politicians to announce they are running and what their platform will be.

Will it be the deficit,Iraq's quagmire, unemployment, medicare, Valerie Plame? No, the mid-term election issue will be Abortion because you and others will look at it and ignore the real issue...
Republican malfeasance.

Ignore the Abortion issue. let any state pass whatever law they wish. We go for the democratic majority then undo what these crooked bastards have done.

I really don't know enough about the procedure to know myself, have never seen one, wouldn't care to or to ever see one of the things being born.

But if it were to one day be outlawed are there appliances available on the market for people to do this? The thought is so horrible and hopefully will never come to pass. But for the people who wouldn't be able to afford to go to the ships in international waters or the doctors who will perform the procedure under the radar for a price, are there options other than the literal "coat hanger?"

I ask this because no man made law removes the scientific law of supply and demand. If there is a demand for them there will be someone to provide a supply.

pharmaceutical companies wish to control natural herbs, oils and so-forth. There are many natural abortifants. The problem is that much of what was known (when, how much, etc.) is no longer common knowledge due to both tighter controls and generalized American laziness (i.e., it's so much easier just to take a series of pills dispensed by a medical doctor). This lack of knowledge and half-knowledge will be what costs many women their lives (and what led many American women in the past to the overt coat hanger method).

Even that remains beyond the point of my OP. The point is that those women who want an abortion will find a way, even if it kills them in the process.