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Minutemen getting a taste of their own medicine - Herndon, VA

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SaveElmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-05-06 09:49 AM
Original message
Minutemen getting a taste of their own medicine - Herndon, VA
These jerks in Herndon, VA harrassing day laborers at the new day-laborer center in Herndon are getting a little payback. These people come out every day and photograph the laborers and then turn those pictures over to the government. This makes it very hard for the laborers to get work, and is just a form of racist harrassment.

The League of United Latin American Citizens is turning the tables however and posting pictures of these a-holes for all the world to see. Check it out.

http://www.weareracists.com
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DS1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-05-06 09:50 AM
Response to Original message
1. Yeah, that's really 'gittin' em
I doubt they really care much at all. :shrug:
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SaveElmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-05-06 09:54 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. It's gettin alot of local media play...
So I suspect the sit is getting visited pretty regularly. They interviewed one "minuteman" and he was pretty ticked. So at least it is getting under their skin.

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Virginian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-05-06 06:07 PM
Response to Reply #3
92. They are taking pictures of the liscense plates of the people hiring.
A few more facts.

Most of the people who are volunteering as Minute Men are from the Town of Herndon. There are women among the volunteers.
None of the illegal day laborers are Mexican. Most are Salvadorian.
The MS-13 gang has committed some murders in the town and county.
A large percentage of the people seeking work through the day labor site are here illegally.
Employers do not pay taxes on the undocumented workers they hire.
The Day labor site is paid for by taxes.


Overcrowding is an additional problem. In one single family home, the authorities found ten people living there and paying rent. Here is the story on that:

INVESTIGATION OF OVERCROWDING COMPLAINTS LEAD TO CRIMINAL CONVICTIONS OF THREE SEPARATE PROPERTY OWNERS


The Town of Herndon made significant progress in its continuing effort to resolve excessive occupancy of single-family residences, at a Fairfax County General District Court proceeding on December 7, 2005. The properties, which are located at 455 Virginia Avenue, 1001 Jeff Ryan Drive, and 322 Missouri Avenue, all within the Town of Herndon, were reported by concerned citizens as being excessively occupied and suspected of being used as transient lodging businesses, which are violations of the Town's ordinances regarding residential occupancy limitations.


The investigation of these particular complaints was assigned to Community Inspector David H. Pace, who conducted months of investigative research, surveillance, discussions with property owners, and inspections of the residences. Of the three properties identified, only one of the properties was reportedly occupied by the property owner. After identifying the existence of violations at each of the addresses, Mr. Pace provided the property owners with a written Notice of Violation for operating or otherwise allowing an illegal transient lodging business to be located within their addresses.


The Herndon Town Council adopted revisions to the Zoning Ordinance, Herndon Town Code (2000), in October 2003, allowing for the criminal prosecution of operating an illegal transient lodging business or boardinghouse. Conviction of these offenses is considered to be a criminal misdemeanor violation and includes a fine of up to $1,000, with no jail sentence imposed.


Through his investigation, Mr. Pace discovered ten or more occupants allegedly living in each of the single-family dwellings. The occupants included several unrelated persons residing together and paying various monthly rent amounts to the property owners. At 455 Virginia Avenue, Mr. Pace observed and documented cockroach alleged infestation throughout the dwelling. Additionally, the same residence was eventually condemned by the Building Official for the Town of Herndon, who cited separate violations of the Virginia Uniform Statewide Building Code. At that time, the residence was vacated and has reportedly not been re-occupied; although, the ownership has been transferred as was stated during the hearing.


At the time of the offense, Ms. Marcia Garcia of Reston, Virginia, was identified as the alleged property owner of 455 Virginia Avenue. During the court hearing, Ms. Garcia pled "guilty" to the misdemeanor violation and was convicted. She was sentenced to twelve months of unsupervised probation, along with a $1,000 fine, all of which was suspended.


Mr. Eduardo Murcia of Herndon, Virginia, was identified as the property owner of 322 Missouri Avenue. Mr. Pace indicated that his investigation revealed and the Town alleged a second kitchen in the residence and that the occupants were each responsible for paying $300-340 per month to Mr. Murcia for rent. Mr. Murcia also pled "guilty" to the misdemeanor violation and was convicted. He was sentenced to twelve months of unsupervised probation, along with a $1,000 fine, $900 of which was suspended.


Mr. Jose D. Aguirre Portillo of Herndon, Virginia, was identified as the property owner of 1001 Jeff Ryan Drive. Mr. Portillo pled "not guilty" to the alleged offense. Testimony presented by Mr. Pace alleged that nine adults and one child were found to be residing in the dwelling. According to interviews and investigation, Mr. Pace found and alleged that not all of the occupants were related to one another and each person was responsible for paying monthly rent amounts to Mr. Portillo. Additionally, an inspection of the residence revealed a second kitchen and rooms being used for sleeping purposes in the basement without the required means of egress. Within his testimony, Mr. Pace indicated that a separate, unrelated Herndon Police investigation revealed that at least eight unrelated adult males were renting rooms in the single-family residence. Mr. Portillo was found guilty and was convicted of the misdemeanor violation. He was sentenced to twelve months of unsupervised probation and was also given a $1,000 fine, with $500 of that amount suspended.


Pace indicated after the hearings that he was pleased with the outcome and of the recognition by the General District Court that this type of excessive occupancy is a very serious concern. "This is not a story about a family with little or no income, who are struggling to pay their monthly mortgage amounts," Pace said. "This type of activity demonstrates a clear, criminal intent to benefit from illegally overcrowding a residence and using it as a boardinghouse."




Would you want one of those houses to be next door to you? One of them was so bad it had to be condemmed. What does that do to the property values in the neighborhood? Housing is not cheap in Herndon. Three bedroom townhouses are selling for a half million dollars.

I know people on both sides of this issue and they both have strong convincing arguments. I see both sides and I don't agree with either totally.

I find no fault with a person trying to earn an honest living to feed his family. I DO have a problem with employers hiring these people illegally to avoid paying payroll taxes. I DO have a problem with the overcrowded conditions in the article above.

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soothsayer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-05-06 09:51 AM
Response to Original message
2. That cracks me up! Good for them! I see a chick in there.
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Bill McBlueState Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-05-06 09:56 AM
Response to Original message
4. this guy's suffering from decade confusion
It's a disorder affecting millions.

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yellowcanine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-05-06 10:01 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. Not to mention "see food eat us". Why do I think "losers" when I look at
these pictures? They look a lot like the pics Freepers post of their "events".
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Virginian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-06-06 12:11 AM
Response to Reply #5
103. They are NOT ALL Freepers.
It would make things a lot easier if all Dems thought the same. That is one of the things that separates us from the neo-cons. We don't march in lock step. We sometimes have different viewpoints. I don't know the guy in the picture, but statistically, he is more likely to have voted for Kerry.

Fairfax is a blue county. Herndon is a blue town.

In Herndon, this is not a Democrat vs. Republican topic.
Some of Bush's strongest critics are also against taxes going to support the Herndon Day Labor Site. Most of Bush's supporters are against it, too.
Jerry Kilgore, the Republican candidate for Governor, got more votes in November than he should have from Herndon because he disagreed with the town council's decision to fund the day labor site with taxpayer money.
The Dem candidate, Tim Kaine, said it is a local solution to a national problem and he would work with the federal Government to try to solve the problem nationally rather than try to second guess the local government.

Kaine's message didn't get as much play as Kilgore's simple "I'm against it."

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TlalocW Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-05-06 10:40 AM
Response to Reply #4
13. Yeah, it's posted on the wrong site
It should be TheDryLookFromMennen.com

TlalocW
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mikeytherat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-05-06 01:39 PM
Response to Reply #4
57. Wow, Gerard Depardieu is a MinuteMan? Don't they know he's French?
mikey_the_rat
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Touchdown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-05-06 02:33 PM
Response to Reply #4
68. How can Gerard Depardieu be a nativist?
He's not even an American himself?
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u4ic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-05-06 05:36 PM
Response to Reply #4
88. Is Wal Mart selling toupees now?
:shrug:
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alphafemale Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-06-06 12:53 AM
Response to Reply #4
106. And is that a high-school class ring? nt
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Vanje Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-06-06 02:17 AM
Response to Reply #4
114. Nah. he just goes to the same stylist as Laura Bush
!
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Kurovski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-06-06 02:41 AM
Response to Reply #4
115. He's an Ashton Kutcher fan.
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Deep13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-05-06 10:08 AM
Response to Original message
6. Can someone please explain to me how being against illegal immigration ...
... equals rascism? I don't see any discrimination based on race, but rather on legal status. (In this limited example, there is no evidence stated that the day laborers are actually illegal aliens or aliens at all. I am asking about this generally.) Further "Mexican" is a citizenship, not a race or even a specific ethnicity. What's more is that giving the government information that is public knowlege anyway is not harassment.
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400Years Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-05-06 10:13 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. it's the underlying worldview that is driving the anti-immigrant movement

and that worldview is Xenophobia. There was someone on DU the other day whining about immigrants and when quizzed one of the biggest things they were worried about is they might have to learn a little bit of spanish.

Beyond that many of these events have been attended by overt racists such as skinheads and neo-nazis. You might not see them in these pictures but others are out there.

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Deep13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-05-06 10:51 AM
Response to Reply #7
16. I gotta say I can understand about the Spanish.
In much of the country (not all), all official business (business transactions, government records, public schools etc.) has always been conducted in English. I can see how Anglo-Americans might be annoyed at the prospect of new groups insisting these things be done in a "foreign" language. Sure, not too many of us speak Navaho etc., but the founders of this body politic spoke English ver. 2.0 (although one cannot overlook that many Spanish speakers were assimilated by force later on.) It may be partly xenophobia, but it is also partly a concern over disunity. Perhaps Florida should be bilingual with English and Spanish. Perhaps it should be English and French in Louisianna. A case can be made that it ought to be Spanish and Cantoneze in CA. This is not an organic nation-state and our Federal Constitution is really all that keeps us together. Without a common official language, it makes us less of a nation.

For my single self, I am apprehensive about immigration for three reasons. First is environmental, second is legal and third is political. The birth rate among persons born in the USA is negative, yet our population continues to grow. We are at around 300 million. By mid-century, it will be close to half a billion. This growth is entirely caused by immigration. Each American leaves an environmental footprint as big as 20 residents of India. This country is full. We don't need any more population growth and in fact cannot sustain it. How many more farms need to be turned into cluster houses? How many more can fit into cities with no local water supply? How will the rich ever be checked if there is no limit to the labor supply? Capping that supply will force more equity in our society because the more of us there are, the less each one is worth.

Second, any immigration must begin with a passport. There is a big difference between overstaying a temporary visa and sneaking into the country. If we are going to continue to prop up our economy with cheap, foreign labor it must be done lawfully. Anyone applying for a temporary visa must demonstrate a clean record and an actual foreign residence for the previous 10 (I guess) years. No one known to have been an undocumented, illegal alien may be granted a visa. Persons found living here unlawfully without a passport should be prosecuted and deported. (In truth, without documentation from another country's foreign ministy, such a person has no status and may simply be detained indefinitely.) On the same note, companies cannot be permitted to undermine domestic labor by hiring undocumented foreigners who will work for peanuts. Employers cannot be let off the hook by saying they didn't know or that such and such underling was operating without authorization. Actual punative damages (sufficient to deter a company of the defendant's size) must be leveed for violations.

Lastly, I know damn well that this issue resonates with voters. The Rs have done nothing about our porous borders since taking power, but they are making themselves into the secure border party through rhetoric. On the other hand, we are playing right into their hands. To prevent the Rs from hijacking the public attention yet again, we need to be in the front of this matter. To paraphrase O.W. Holmes, there are battles with fate that can never be won. Did you know that Bill Clinton's advice to Kerry was to embrace Dubya's gay marriage amendment idea? Clinton wanted to diffuse the public's irrational, but real apprehension. Same here. We will never convince people that not cracking down on illegal aliens is a good idea, so we ought to get in front of this issue insead of dodging it.
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CAcyclist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-05-06 05:02 PM
Response to Reply #16
81. Your whole tone strikes me as racist. nt
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Deep13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-06-06 01:35 PM
Response to Reply #81
122. Tone? Guess you're easily struck. nt
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ieoeja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-05-06 05:32 PM
Response to Reply #16
87. 33% Entered Legally

"is a big difference between overstaying a temporary visa and sneaking into the country."

Then you will be happy to know that, according to Department of Homeland Security estimates 1 in 3 illegal aliens currently residing in this country overstayed a temporary visa. So you need not worry about those.

And the Government Accounting Office believes the DHS estimate is low.

(source http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d0482.pdf)



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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-05-06 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #7
43. If you connect the Republican dots, they have tied
Edited on Thu Jan-05-06 12:45 PM by sfexpat2000
the War on Terra to their pandering to their racist base. You know, "law and order" candidates run against Blacks, "immigration reform" candidates run against Mexicans and all those other brown folk. The code isn't even that coded any more.

It's that simple.

No al quaida nannys or gardeners have threatened us, and when labor teams up will undocumented workers -- instead of irrationally blaming them -- wages go up and work conditions improve as the experiment in Los Angeles has proved.
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FreedomAngel82 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-05-06 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #7
50. Yes
I think people should learn Spanish. It's like with Canada for example. Their two biggest languages are English and French. I know someone online who lives in Canada still in high school and she has to take a French class. Spanish is big in our country and people should know. Here in our state they're talking about having elementary kids learn Spanish. I know a little girl who is in kindegarten who knows Spanish. About two weeks before Christmas my church had a party and my mom, brother and I when it was over was talking to some Spanish people we know and this little girl just walked over to the mother and started talking to her in Spanish. So if a little five/six year old girl can learn Spanish than surely a fifty/sixty year old person can.
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pitohui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-05-06 05:04 PM
Response to Reply #50
82. bad logic
So if a little five/six year old girl can learn Spanish than surely a fifty/sixty year old person can.

just the opposite is true, since your brain is best equipped for learning language during the pre-school years and you more or less rapidly lose the ability with age

if you didn't hear and learn to make certain sounds in your single digit years, you will never be able to pronounce properly

sorry

most 50/60 year olds are not going to be able to learn a new language and speak it w. any fluency if they were not exposed to it in youth

nothing wrong w. learning spanish but a bit hard on the older people to accuse them of being racist because their brains are already rigid, if you want to learn a language, you had best start now, it will never get any easier
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Bridget Burke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-05-06 05:13 PM
Response to Reply #82
84. Yes, it's harder for older immigrants to learn English.
Especially when they work long hours & free or cheap classes are hard to find. Let's educate their children well so they can learn good English & maintain their Spanish skills.

I started the formal study of Spanish in my 40's. I can understand quite a bit. My speaking is not fluent & I'll always have an accent. But I'll keep working at it. The "mental exercise" of learning a language is good for us old folks--helps stave off rigidity of the brain.

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Retired AF Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-05-06 01:33 PM
Response to Reply #7
52. A person using a legal point of entry
to enter the U.S. and going through all the Govt red tape to become a citizen is an immigrant. A person that sneaks into this country is not. I'm all for legal immigration, hell all of us are the ancestors of legal immigration.
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msongs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-05-06 10:17 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. don't confuse the argument with facts nt
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Loonman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-05-06 10:18 AM
Response to Reply #6
9. Key word is ILLEGAL as in 'unlawful'
Immigration is fine, illegal immigration is not. Why can't anybody seem to understand that. If the media source did not mention the citizenship status of the laborers, then that's pretty crappy reporting.



More fun to be self-righteously indignant, I guess.
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KatieW Donating Member (101 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-05-06 10:22 AM
Response to Reply #6
10. I agree. Being against illegal immigration does not make one a racist.
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SaveElmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-05-06 10:30 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. The way to solve the problem is not to harrass these laborers...
They are simply doing what they ahve to do to survive. In the same situation any one of us would do the same thing. These smug assholes in the SUV's, who apparently don't have to work, come and harrass among the most vulnerable people in the area, and make no attempt to distinguish between those here legally, which most of them are.

If they had any interest in solving the immigration problem they would be working to change US policy toward third world countries where these people come from, rather than harrassing people simply trying to survive.

Their whole attitude and demeanor, and the way they express their contempt for these people suggests they view them as inferior.
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Deep13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-05-06 11:03 AM
Response to Reply #11
21. Yes, these "minutemen" seem pretty hateful.
I seem to recall that the actual Minutemen volunteered to fight a larger, better equipped British or Hessian force. In other words they were David, not Goliath as the Beerguts-Across-America movement seems to be.

I was speaking generally, not to this specific situation.
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FreedomAngel82 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-05-06 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #11
53. I wonder if they're getting paid to do this
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-06-06 01:25 AM
Response to Reply #11
110. Thy aren't doing anything to the laborers, they're going after the
employers. And that's how you stop illegal immigration because it's the fault of those who employ them illegally while undercutting wages.

I have no sympathy for anybody in this country illegally. By definition, they are criminals.
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Sparkman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-06-06 10:50 AM
Response to Reply #110
120. smoking pot is illegal, slowly driving thru stop signs as solo car there..
are also crimes. Walking home from the local bar is also a crime. NOT claiming the yard sale items on your tax return is a crime. And worrying about a few Mexicans here w/o visa/green card is too.
And in most people's opinion, mine included, they all constitute the same threat to our culture...none. BUT the minutemen are not looking to limit India's or China's or Japan's emmigrants to the U.S. for the purpose of killing technical engineering jobs' wage growth are they?

AND, where's the outrage over CANADIANs coming into the us "illegally"? They cross the border and stay past the allotted couple of days, but no border check of the white Canadian's overstaying w/o greencards...equally unimportant criminal activity.

And let's not forget to mention another great crime spree...17 yr olds buying cigaretts at the local convenience store...BIG CRIME going unpunished.
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-06-06 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #120
121. WRONG!
The majority supports stopping illegal immigration.

These people are criminals, and the employers are WORSE criminals because they enable the criminality.
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Sparkman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-06-06 02:54 PM
Response to Reply #121
123. Oh my, you are a legalist. AND if you ask about punishments what's the...
consensus. Is it LIFE w/o possibility of parole? No, because that's the real question that should be on those questionaires. What should we dole out as punishments to day laborers and their scoff law employers. I wouldn't hesitate to hire an illegal to help me, like around the house, you want me to turn myself in next time a tree needs trimming?
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-06-06 05:01 PM
Response to Reply #123
126. The punishment for the illegal alien is simple, deportation
The punishment for any employer of illegal aliens should be ten years minimum, IMO.
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Sparkman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-06-06 06:35 PM
Response to Reply #126
130. 10 yrs you say for "any employer", what about me, hiring a day-laborer?
Should I get 10 years too? What about the non-payment of with-holdings for the HUGE number of nanny's, under-the-table LEGAL residents working as cleaning ladies, janitors, gardeners and restaurants that under report? Ten years for them too?
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SaveElmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-07-06 03:41 AM
Response to Reply #110
137. That is not true Walt...
They are monitoring NO other supposedly illegal immigrants. They don't go after cleaning companies who hire illegals as maids, they don't go after restaurants or any other business.

Not only that, they make NO attempt to ascertain the status of the day laborers, or whether the employers are following the law. They simply harrass everyone. They make the assumption, that since they are hispanic and are day laborers they must be here illegally. I can tell you from my interaction with many of them that enter my store (I'm about 10 miles from Herndon), that many if not most are here legally.

Plain and simple they are trying to initimidate people they don't like...and surprise surprise, they are not white!!!
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zbdent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-05-06 10:30 AM
Response to Reply #10
12. True, but the tinge of "illegal immigrant"
makes all the easily swayed think "Hispanic" - and totally neglects a bunch of white, Euro types who are here illegally, also. Kinda like "urban" keeps bringing up "blacks" in the person's mind . . .

"illegal immigration" is just their new code word for hiding their true nature . . .
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Deep13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-05-06 11:07 AM
Response to Reply #12
24. Actually, 'Hispanic' is a made-up term.
When I worked for the Census in 2000, we were told to ask is anyone in the household was Hispanic and then to ask what race everyone was. We were told that Hispanics can be any race, just as Mexicans can be any race from white Spaniards to Mayan Indians. What was more, we had no definition of 'Hispanic.' If the interviewee thought he or she was, then he was.
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zbdent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-05-06 11:38 AM
Response to Reply #24
32. True . . . but ask a freepturd about "Hispanic" or "illegal immigrant"
and they think of guys in lowrider cars taking away their jobs.

Also similar to "native American". Think Tonto, but that also applies to Eskimos . . .
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TygrBright Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-06-06 03:41 AM
Response to Reply #24
117. Perhaps true, technically, and certainly from the Census standpoint...
...but I was surprised when I moved to New Mexico to find that there is a large population here that considers themselves "Hispanic." They are the descendents of Spanish settlers who have lived in this area since the 18th century, and many Hispanic families have close ties even today with relatives in Mexico and Central America.

There are certainly cultural issues between the Anglo, Hispanic, and Indian communities here, but on the whole folks seem to get along remarkably well. Perhaps it's because there is no overwhelming majority in control or throwing its weight around politically or economically. Although the rich Anglo incomers in the northern part of the state come in for a fair amount of ribbing about being divorced from the economic realities of life that the rest of us deal with, they are also appreciated for the cultural and economic resources they bring.

Tensions seem to be more between rich and poor, and the people whose families have been here for centuries and the newcomers, rather than racial issues. I've heard complaints from recent Mexican and Central American immigrants that the Hispanic "elite" look down on them and exploit them, and complaints from poor Anglos that Pueblo influence blocks a lot of economic activity they think would benefit them. But overall things are remarkably civilized. Possibly because with the exception of the few rich incomers, the economy here is tough for everyone. We all try to help each other out. And of course we all milk the tourists for all they're worth, heh-heh (but give excellent value for it!)

And I have no problem with learning Spanish, even though I'm, well, not a spring chicken anymore. When we knew we'd be moving here I got a Spanish course and I'm trying to pick up a few useful things each week. At least now I can tell Spanish-speaking wrong numbers that no one here speaks Spanish! And understand their apologies and tell them "de nada!"

I do find myself missing the strong African American community influence of the DC area. But I like the mix of Hispanic and Indian and Anglo here, too. So don't be too quick to dis "Hispanic" as a concept. There's a few dozen Garcias and Ortizes and Varelas and Hernandezes in my neighborhood who'll take issue with that!

disputatiously,
Bright
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CottonBear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-06-06 06:17 PM
Response to Reply #24
129. I worked on Census 200 as well. Hispanic is an ethnic group
Edited on Fri Jan-06-06 06:18 PM by CottonBear
based on a common culture and language. One can be African-Hispanic, European-Hispanic or Native American-Hispanic. Many Mexicans are racially mixed: of both European and Native American background.

I believe that you misrepresent what the Census form actaully asked and how you were trained. You were not supposed to influence an answer. You awere supposed to write down the response to the answer. Everyone knows what Hispanic is. For instance, Soledad O'Brien is Hispanic as are Afro-Carribean people from Cuba or Argentineans of German background.
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newyawker99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-05-06 01:14 PM
Response to Reply #10
44. Hi KatieW!!
Welcome to DU!! :toast:
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Bridget Burke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-05-06 05:14 PM
Response to Reply #10
85. But many leaders of the Minutemen....
Have worked with racist groups in the past. They don't do the anti-illegal-immigration crowd any good.
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Virginian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-05-06 05:31 PM
Response to Reply #85
86. False statement n/t
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Bridget Burke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-05-06 05:40 PM
Response to Reply #86
90. Fine words from the Old Dominion.
I guess you spoke with these wonderful folks.
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peacebaby3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-06-06 12:56 AM
Response to Reply #86
108. Actually, that statement is not false at all. You should read all of the
information on the Southern Poverty Law Center's site. They have actually had to start a project called "Immigration Watch" modeled after their "Klan Watch" because of the many ties and similarities between the two groups.

Just go to <http://www.splcenter.org> and do a search for "minutemen" and you will get tons of information. Some of the ties to hate groups is pretty shocking.

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in_cog_ni_to Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-05-06 11:17 AM
Response to Reply #6
25. It IS racism. The people who hire these people should be charged
with a FEDERAL CRIME and sent to prison. You would see illegal immigration come to a halt if their jobs were gone. It's the people who hire them that are the cause. If they didn't hire them, they wouldn't come, right? Do you think these assholes care if a blond-haired, blue eyed person crosses our borders illegally? I don't.
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Deep13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-05-06 11:28 AM
Response to Reply #25
26. I agree on the employers who exploit the poor and subvert labor.
The simple fact, however, is that northern Europeans are not crossing the border en masse. It is primarily Mexicans. It would be different if we were located on some other continent. What's more it is not the best and brightest as are regular immigrants from India, for example. (I guess importing tech school graduates is cheaper than funding our own educational system.) We have no idea who it is that crosses the border without a passport except that they have little regard for the law.
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BushOut06 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-05-06 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #25
35. Is it really any better than slavery?
Isn't this the modern version of slavery in this country? Companies and rich folks want cheap labor, they don't want to mess around with that whole minimum wage thing, benefits, etc. So what do they do? They hire illegal immigrants, knowing full well they can pay them substandard wages under the table, and the person won't dare complain about it.
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in_cog_ni_to Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-05-06 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #35
36. Slavery. That's exactly what it is. n/t
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FreedomAngel82 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-05-06 01:27 PM
Response to Reply #6
48. It's how they talk about it
Next time ask a freeper or someone like the MinuteMen about why they're against immigration. I don't think people should enter a country illegally either, but I'm not going to go and badmouth their country and race etc. Listen to who they mostly target. How long did they stay at the Canadian board and compare it to how long they stayed at the Mexican boarder?
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PA Democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-05-06 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #6
54. I would suggest a more effective approach would be to go after the
business owners who knowingly hire undocumented workers. As long as there is a demand for cheap undocumented workers, there will be a supply.
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trixie Donating Member (696 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-05-06 02:58 PM
Response to Reply #6
73. Do you realize it is business that brings them here with promises
and then dumps them? How about immigration reform to help those families looking for a better life. There was a great program on PBS this weekend that had solutions for workers brought here, abused and then dumped. They can't legally work here but they can legally own a company here so the workers started a coop where they aren't paid but share in the profits. All legal. I loved the idea.
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Deep13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-05-06 03:38 PM
Response to Reply #73
77. I don't doubt it. nm
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Maddy McCall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-06-06 01:30 AM
Response to Reply #6
112. How do you think that these "minutemen" decide who's legal and who's...
not?

Through race. They report people with brown skin who are "suspicious." That's racism, pure and simple. Many of those "brown skinned people" are citizens, yet they are targeted because of the color of their skin. Racism.

You don't see the minutemen at the Canadian border, protecting North Dakota from wayward Canucks, do you? Why not?
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Balbus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-06-06 03:01 PM
Response to Reply #6
124. It's not.
Racism is thrown out as a last resort by people that have ran out of arguments.
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Lefty48197 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-06-06 07:29 PM
Response to Reply #6
132. Because white people immigrate "legally", brown people do it "illegally"
.
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stop the bleeding Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-05-06 10:42 AM
Response to Original message
14. Me caveman- ooh ooh ooh- what a bunch of racist assholes n/t
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Leilani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-05-06 10:50 AM
Response to Original message
15. Throwing the word "racist" around is not a good idea
It lessens the true meaning of the word if used carelessly, as is too often the case.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-05-06 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #15
39. There is nothing careless about its use in this context.
Seen the minute men stalk illegal Englishmen or Swedes lately? :eyes:
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Virginian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-06-06 12:29 AM
Response to Reply #39
104. What race are we discussing?
Hispanic is an ethnicity that can be of any race. IMHO "Xenophobe" is more appropriate a term than racist. There is probably an even better term, but I can't think of one this late at night.

How many illegal Swedes or Englishmen are there in the country? Not many. I guess they don't want to give up their free health care to live here. If one or two slip into the country, they aren't noticed. If they were sneaking in by the thousands, and if they were conspicuous and living in colonies, the minute men might be observing them. You go fishing where the fish are.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-06-06 12:54 AM
Response to Reply #104
107. "You go fishing where the fish are."
Edited on Fri Jan-06-06 12:54 AM by sfexpat2000
Wow.

And, you are technically right about "xenophobia". "Race" as a physical category is meaningless although widely used in the vernacular.
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bpj1962 Donating Member (123 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-05-06 10:55 AM
Response to Original message
17. Minuteman
Let me give you all a 1st person account of what is actually happening in Herndon. Prior to the Day labor center being opened the day labors gathered at the intersection of Alabama Ave and Elden St. in downtown Herndon. They did this 6 days a week. This is something that occurs all over the Northern Virginia region on a daily basis. What the Minuteman are actually doing is taking pictures of the contractors and writing down the tag numbers. They are then turning over the information to the IRS. They want the IRS to investigate the contractors for not reporting income paid to the day laborers. The IRS has refused to comment on whether or not they are investigating. Although these actions may not fall to the level of racism they are intimidating both the contractors and the day laborers.

I would like to point out that Herndon Virginia is not close to any border of the United States that I am aware of, so if the Minuteman's stated purpose is to stop illegal immigration then I would say that they are in the wrong place. They are simply trying to deny a group of people who happen to be mostly latin america the opportunity to make some money. They have no idea whether these people are here illegally nor do they care. My question to the Minuteman is simply this, who is going to do your gardening and landscaping or who is going to clean your house or office building if you chase these people away. Whites and African Americans long ago gave up doing these types of jobs.
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NorthernSpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-05-06 11:06 AM
Response to Reply #17
23. who's going to do the cleaning and the landscaping, you ask?
My question to the Minuteman is simply this, who is going to do your gardening and landscaping or who is going to clean your house or office building if you chase these people away. Whites and African Americans long ago gave up doing these types of jobs.


Whites and blacks "gave up doing these types of jobs"? Not where I live!

Although, I suppose that if those currently so employed do eventually get pushed out of their jobs by illegals who'll work for less, then some illegal immigration apologist will be quick to say, "see -- they've all given up doing that kind of work!"


:eyes:
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bpj1962 Donating Member (123 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-05-06 11:46 AM
Response to Reply #23
33. Minuteman
let me expand upon my earlier statement. I live in Northern Virginia I am exactly a 10 minutes drive from where this is occurring so I have seen it on a weekly basis. Go into the McDonald's that is at the intersection and see who is working there. Look at your average landscaping or roofing crew. Work late at night in this area and see who comes in and cleans your office. If may be different where you live but in the Northern Virginia suburbs the minimum wage jobs tend to be populated predominately by latin americans. When I was in High School I worked at the McDonald's up the street from my house. I could bet you even money that you will not find a Caucasian working there now. I don't think it's fair for you to attempt to misconstrue what I was saying. THis is where I live and I see what is happening and unless you live in Northern Virginia you are relying on this forum or the MSM for your information.

What is lost in this entire situation is why the Day Labor center was created in the first place. The first reason was to give them labors some shelter as well as restrooms, the second reason is that the shelter provides a translator who makes sure that the contractors bargain in good faith with the labors and that they get paid at the end of the day. I am all for the labor center. All of them want to work and make and honest days wage.

One further note for you, I am the son of an immigrant, My father came to this country in 1956 looking for a better way of life then what he had in is own country so I am very familiar with what immigrants go through to make it here in America.
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harlinchi Donating Member (954 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-05-06 11:34 AM
Response to Reply #17
27. Whites and Blacks long ago gave up doing these jobs...
...at the rates of pay offered! Pay real wages and get real citizens!
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Deep13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-05-06 11:36 AM
Response to Reply #27
29. here, here! nm
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RagingInMiami Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-05-06 01:24 PM
Response to Reply #27
45. So you're going to blame the immigrants


It seems to be these "minutemen" - and yes, I call them racist -- would better serve their country and the if they simply start protesting and boycotting these corporations that are wiping out the middle-class.
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harlinchi Donating Member (954 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-05-06 02:53 PM
Response to Reply #45
72. No, I'd blame the corporations that use the immigrants.
There are NO jobs that Blacks or whites would not do given a reasonable rate of pay, notwithstanding the remarks Vicente Fox et al.

I recognize the immigrants are trying to survive and prosper, to the extent possible. I admire that. I also admire repsect for law. I admire those who do not drive down labor costs here by accepting jobs at rates of pay that do not support a reasonable lifestyle. I admire those who do not confuse issues by raising straw man arguments.
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slaveplanet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-06-06 06:05 PM
Response to Reply #17
128. come to the midwest
Edited on Fri Jan-06-06 06:06 PM by slaveplanet
They have no idea whether these people are here illegally nor do they care. My question to the Minuteman is simply this, who is going to do your gardening and landscaping or who is going to clean your house or office building if you chase these people away. Whites and African Americans long ago gave up doing these types of jobs.


I live in a mixed neighborhood ...the landscapers are 75% white 20% African American maybe 5% other. Grass in summer, Plow in winter. Most are local young men directly from the neighborhood...they make lot's of money and have lot's of toys. They do much better than the average Mc job that is about the only alternative since manufacturing has been decimated. As far as cleaning goes, most are hardworking African american women, especially for motels and hotels. I'm sure the makup is differen't for the southwest regions of this country, but this is the way it is here.

Care to rethink that last statement?
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NorthernSpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-05-06 10:55 AM
Response to Original message
18. I want the illegals sent home, and I'm not a racist.
Edited on Thu Jan-05-06 10:56 AM by NorthernSpy
Please stop assuming that all progressives and anti-racists agree with you on this issue. I don't. Lots of us don't.

In fact, most Americans don't agree you. So you're slandering a heck of a lot of people as "racists".
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-05-06 10:59 AM
Response to Reply #18
20. Why do you want "illegals" sent home?
As a "progressive", why would you be against poor people finding jobs in this country?
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Deep13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-05-06 11:35 AM
Response to Reply #20
28. This country is full.
I don't want population growth turning the whole USA into New Jersey. Our wasteful economy is bouyed by two unsustainable practices: glutonous consumption of energy and a continuous influx of cheap labor. The poem on the Statue of Liberty that begins "Give me your poor, your tired" etc. ought to end with "because we need them to work the mines, our fields, build railroads and mop our floors at a minimum payment." Growth is good for children, but in mature people it is called obesity. We are full grown yet are population grows only from immigration.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-05-06 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #28
40. And that has ever been the state of this place. The country
was "full" when the first white settlers came here. Hello, McFly! lol
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Deep13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-05-06 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #40
56. Yes, and it remains so.
McFly? You just carbon dated yourself. :-)
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-05-06 02:07 PM
Response to Reply #56
59. LOL!
:)
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Beelzebud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-05-06 01:26 PM
Response to Reply #20
46. Why can't they become legal citizens?
Whats wrong with expecting people to follow the rule of law?

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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-05-06 01:37 PM
Response to Reply #46
55. Because of our restrictive immigration laws.
Don't you think that they would like to?
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Deep13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-05-06 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #55
58. Laws they ignore.
Yes, we have restrictions because most Mexicans would come here if they could. I can't remember the source, but that is what a recent poll found. We actually have restrictions on immigration from just about every country, but only Mexicans are in a position to bypass the law. I don't want anyone who is willing to violate Federal law coming here. We have enough home-grown criminals (most of them are in Congress) without importing new ones.

I remind everyone that the difference between freedom and arbitrary tyrany is rule of law. As a liberal, I cite rule of law as the bedrock foundation upon which all progressive action lies. The history of progress is a study in the increasingly universal application to the rule of law. Used to be that the rich were princes among men. Not anymore, Scooter, (though we are backsliding). Used to be that a man was king in his house. Not anymore, his wife and children now have legal rights. Used to be that a boss could treat his laborers like commodities. Not anymore (again, backsliding). These rules are not all Marxist restrictions on the rich, either. Consider seat belt laws, sanitary codes, standard school cirriculum, car smog tests, graduated income taxes, drunk driving laws, Social Security, voting rights for minorities and women etc. etc. Laws invariable tell people what to do and in this case they keep excessive numbers of foreign nationals out.
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Beelzebud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-05-06 02:14 PM
Response to Reply #58
60. Well said! It is not about racism. It's about the law.
If you can't even immigrate to this country legally, what's to say you will follow the rest of the laws once you get here?

It reminds me of the Ryan Liscense for Bribes scandal here in Illinois. They were taking bribes and giving illegal Mexican truck drivers liscenses to drive semi trucks. The problem was that most of these drivers were not qualified to drive a commerical rig, and were killing people on the interstates.

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SaveElmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-05-06 02:24 PM
Response to Reply #60
62. It's not about immigration...
If it truly was they would be trying to lobby the government to aid in improving conditions in the countries these people come from so they wouldn't feel like they had to leave.

Second, they have made no attempt, none, to determine the status of these people. They assume since they are day laborers and hispanic they must be illegal.

My store is very close to another area where they congregate waiting for work, and many come in here. I can tell you that most of them I have dealt with are here legally.

And if you listen to them talk it is clear from the condescending way they describe these workers they they clearly view them as inferior. They are cruel and heartless, using their opposition to immigration to harrass people they don't like.
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Deep13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-05-06 02:31 PM
Response to Reply #62
66. No argument here about "minutemen".
I was speaking generally, not addressing this illustration of vigilante action. Plenty of other things more pressing for beerguts-across-America to worry about if they were not driven by fear. They do make good orange juice, however. Oh wait, that MinuteMaid.
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Virginian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-06-06 01:04 AM
Response to Reply #58
109. Most of the Herndon "Illegals" are NOT Mexican.
El Salvador is colonizing Herndon. These people are poorer than Mexicans. They don't know as much about the US as Mexicans. Many have no education at all.

While we are at it, notice that the Day Labor site seems to cater only to MEN? The women are working as maids. They don't have to look for a job daily. They have employment and a regular schedule.
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BushOut06 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-05-06 02:26 PM
Response to Reply #55
63. restrictive immigration laws?
Ever tried immigrating to another country? Even Canada has restrictions on US citizens who want to immigrate to their country. Many other countries place tight limits on immigration. It has nothing to do with racism, it's primarily a growth management problem. Here in Florida, we already have a huge problem with runaway growth as it is.
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Beelzebud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-05-06 02:15 PM
Response to Reply #20
61. As a progressive I'm for American Citizens being able to find work.
We have enough unemployed people that were born here, that no one seems to care about. Why invite illegal immigrants in?
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SaveElmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-05-06 02:26 PM
Response to Reply #61
64. Fact is...
These people are taking jobs no one else will do. They make shit for wages and have no job security.

Secondly, most of the day laborers I have dealt with anyway (I have never hired any), are here legally.

The "minutemen" (a term insulting to the actual minutemen) simply assume since they are hispanic and day laborers they must be illegals. That is racist.
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Beelzebud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-05-06 02:32 PM
Response to Reply #64
67. Oh Bullshit. I HAD a "job no one wants to do".
And first they brought in migrant workers (most of whom were illegal), then they outsourced the place to South America after Monsanto bought it out.

DeKalb Corn Foundation Plant in IL. GONE

A whole bunch of people in our town all lost our "jobs no one wanted"

Everytime I hear that fucking argument I get white-hot mad...

It's easy to sit in a climate controlled office building and proclaim there are "jobs no one wants", but that is fucking bullshit.

When the manufacturing plants are all closed, and the farm plants are all gone, and you have half the population living as unemployed poor, tell me there are jobs no one wants...

God I hate that stupid fucking argument....
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SaveElmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-05-06 03:07 PM
Response to Reply #67
75. Maybe I should state it this way...
No one else will take these jobs at the wages those doing the hiring are willing to pay.
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BushOut06 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-05-06 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #75
76. True, true enough
If you offered even the minimum wage, you'd have plenty of Americans willing to take some of those jobs. Look at how many people Walmart is able to hire - yet I wouldn't exactly call that a "desirable job". sidenote: I'm well aware of Walmart's penchant for hiring illegals.

Let's go after the companies that are taking advantage of illegal immigrants by paying them shit wages. Let's focus on letting Americans get first shot at these jobs. Then we can start working on improving minimum & living wages, benefits, etc.
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ieoeja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-05-06 05:39 PM
Response to Reply #75
89. That's not always true either.

I have a friend who lost jobs on three separate occasions when every worker in the plant was fired and new ones brought in. By the third time he knew the score and begged them to let him come back at the new lower wages, but they weren't interested.

The other problem, you see, is that those raised in this country, "know their rights". The employers don't trust Americans to set aside all of their rights once they let them stay.


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SaveElmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-05-06 06:18 PM
Response to Reply #89
94. Those referenced in this story...
Are taking seasonal and sporadic jobs with landscape companies and construction sites. It's not a matter of them taking a full time job no one wants. These employers are looking for people to work on an extremely temporary basis.
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datasuspect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-05-06 06:21 PM
Response to Reply #67
95. then your beef ought to be with multinational corporations
and the american government. not defenseless poor people seeking low wage jobs.
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Deep13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-05-06 02:34 PM
Original message
Locals will do the jobs if paid what they are worth.
Again, you're right about so-called minutemen and about this set of rather limited facts.

It is only our demand for cheap vegitables and services and corporate greed that prevent employers from resorting to undocumented labor sources rather than dealing with people who have actual rights.
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BushOut06 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-05-06 03:06 PM
Response to Reply #64
74. African American slaves used to do those jobs also
And I don't buy that argument for one second. True, most Americans don't want to do those jobs for the wages that they're offering. But there are many, many Americans who are out of work who would gladly take some of those jobs they paid halfway decent wages. This is a different issue altogether.

As for your other two arguments, I'll give you those.
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BushOut06 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-05-06 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #61
65. Amen, brother!
It really ticks me off whenever I hear the argument "they do jobs that Americans don't want to do". Bullshit. They made the same argument about slavery in the South. It just doesn't make sense. There are LOTS of jobs that Americans don't want to do, but do anyways. I don't always like my job. But the fact is, there are plenty of Americans out there who are out of work who could be working.

Now as far as minimum wage, lack of benefits, etc - that's a totally separate issue. But to just give jobs to illegal immigrants because "Americans won't do them" is absurd on its face.
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Beelzebud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-05-06 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #65
69. It sure is. I lost a "job no one wanted".
Because first they let illegal immigrant from Mexico come in, and then they moved the whole plant to South America.

People that say there are "jobs Americans don't want" say that from the comfort of an office building, and a life of privilege.
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SaveElmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-05-06 04:04 PM
Response to Reply #69
78. For the right amount of money...
You can find someone to do any job. I would shovel shit for the right price. It's about what people are willing to pay for certain work. And also, the work these day-laborers are taking is generally seasonal and sporadic, often at landscaping companies. Aside from the fact that many if not most of these laborers are here legally, the fact is at the rate that companies are willing to pay, no one else will take them.

Now, if we can somehow reform the industries hiring these people to make it attractive for "natives," that is another issue. My guess is the same people railing against these day laborers are the same people unwilling to raise the minimum wage and do the other things necessary to make them attractive.
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BushOut06 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-05-06 04:11 PM
Response to Reply #78
79. Speaking as someone who was once homeless and unemployed...
At one point in my life, I was homeless and unemployed. Not the best time of my life, I'll tell you right now. Anyways, I earned a few bucks working for a day labor agency. Many times there just weren't enough jobs to go around, especially if you got there a little late. I knew many of those guys would have gladly done some of those "undesirable, seasonal & sporadic" jobs in order to earn a few bucks to feed themselves for that day.
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Sparkman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-06-06 03:08 PM
Response to Reply #79
125. Anyone willing to work, any race or nationality, should be given it. ANY 1
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High Plains Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-05-06 04:40 PM
Response to Reply #78
80. I hear there are plenty of openings in the California fields
Any takers here?

I thought so.
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datasuspect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-05-06 06:23 PM
Response to Reply #69
98. if they moved the plant to south america
how is that the fault of illegal immigrants?
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datasuspect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-05-06 06:22 PM
Response to Reply #65
97. so when was the last time you worked for $5.50/hour?
i can think of at least 50 american citizens i know who would outright refuse to work for minimum wage.
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AgadorSparticus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-08-06 08:09 PM
Response to Reply #20
139. I'm sure he's not against poor people finding jobs in this country...he
just expects them to go through legal channels like everyone else. There are poor people all around the world that would love to come here to find jobs. Allowing illegals to stay here is a slap in the face to all immigrants who applied legally and had to wait their turn.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-05-06 05:06 PM
Response to Reply #18
83. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
ecstatic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-06-06 07:18 PM
Response to Reply #18
131. You are right, and I want them sent home too
I empathize so much with the need to make a better way in America; however, my mother and her family all came from South America and it took 10 years for her immediate family of 7 to get into the states--LEGALLY. Happy to say they are all true success stories in this country. The practice of simply being able to cross over the borders of Mexico is unfair to all the people waiting in line to get here from countries like Africa, South America, Haiti, etc. I'm all for fair and legal immigration. I am not for illegal immigration as it drains our economy, causes a problem for American workers, and is just downright UNFAIR.
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-05-06 10:56 AM
Response to Original message
19. They're heroes "saving" us from powerless poor brown people.
They would look more natural in their traditional sheets.
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Deep13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-05-06 11:37 AM
Response to Reply #19
30. They don't make sheets that big. nm
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BushOut06 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-05-06 11:03 AM
Response to Original message
22. Don't worry, Bushie's gonna build a Berlin wall across the border
To keep those undesirables out.
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Deep13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-05-06 11:37 AM
Response to Reply #22
31. He should build another around Crawford ...
... to keep those undesireables in.
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RagingInMiami Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-05-06 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #22
49. And the rest of us in
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UTUSN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-05-06 11:51 AM
Response to Original message
34. K&R-1 Thank you, SaveElmer - I'll say it again
I realize that there is division within the Democratic Party over immigration because of labor issues. But we need to keep the issues FOCUSED: We are NOT for ILLEGAL immigration, any more than we are for any other form of illegality. But just as we are NOT for "abortion" and we ARE for CHOICE, in the immigration issue we are FOR social justice, humane treatment, and civil rights. The wingnuts continually MIX the issues up, creating DIVERSION, by claiming that they are ONLY for "secure borders" and "national security" and "enforcing the law" whereas they are MASKING their very real RACISM and anti-civil rights stances.

We need to keep the issues SEPARATE. We are not for ILLEGALITY. We are for social justice, humane treatment, and civil rights. AND we are for national security and secure borders and enforcing the law--------by the appropriate persons and means.
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SaveElmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-05-06 12:31 PM
Response to Reply #34
37. Exactly...
The way to solve the problem of illegal immigration is not to exploit and harrass those only trying to survive. It is to help create conditions in these countries such that people won't feel like they have to leave to survive.

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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-05-06 12:37 PM
Response to Original message
38. Excellent! I hope these racist bastards have a fit.
lol!
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radio4progressives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-05-06 12:42 PM
Response to Original message
41. Excellent!!! In Virginia of all places! that's great! NT
:applause:
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Jara sang Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-05-06 12:44 PM
Response to Original message
42. Sweet. Information is the new gold.
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FreedomAngel82 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-05-06 01:26 PM
Response to Original message
47. Good
Sometimes all someone needs is a taste of their own medicine. I can't stand the MinuteMen. And what in the world does that mean anyways?
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TheBaldyMan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-05-06 01:32 PM
Response to Original message
51. Why aren't the minutemen at work?
I guess Simcox the LA cowboy and his pals have had there fruit-picking, lawn-tending, street-sweeping executive positions stolen right from underneath their noses.
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Virginian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-05-06 06:22 PM
Response to Reply #51
96. In this area we have flex hours. Too much traffic for non-essentials ...
to have to be in at a specific minute.
The Day labor site opens early and closes by 9:00 am. I think they volunteer for a specific time or day at the day labor site and then go in to their regular jobs.
They are taking pictures of the people hiring the day laborers, not the workers themselves. Additional research will be done to see if the employers are breaking the law.

I live outside the town, so I am not paying the taxes for this. I hear both sides and think that both sides have valid arguments. I am only trying to clear up the misconceptions that are flying all over this thread.
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SaveElmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-06-06 05:48 PM
Response to Reply #96
127. Minutemen are tracking both laborers and employers...
"...and the Minuteman Project, which works to combat illegal immigration in part by using cameras and other techniques to monitor the comings and goings of laborers as well as contractors and homeowners who hire them."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/12/14/AR2005121400891.html

I also believe this still constitutes harrassment...the minutemen's stated goal is to dry up the well of employers hiring day laborers with the goal of driving them from Herndon. Again, making no attempt whatsoever to determine the status of the laborers, and making no attempt to ascertain whether the employers are following the law. Hiring day laborers is not illegal, and just because someone does not like the fact they exist in their community should not be excuse enough to take away the liveliehood they are able to scratch out.

"Taplin's ultimate goal is to discourage contractors or potential employers from hiring the workers. By doing so, Taplin believes the site will be unsuccessful and the workers will leave Herndon."

http://www.connectionnewspapers.com/article.asp?article=60487&paper=66&cat=104


And, As you pointed out earlier, there are widely diverging views on how many of the day laborers are here illegally, but no one argues that a significant chunk of them are here legally...this is my experience where my store is. Lumping them together because they are hispanic and are day-laborers, assuming they are all illegal, is racist. No better than assuming a black man in a white neigborhood is about to rob someone.

Hispanics are not the only source of illegal aliens...and not the only ones working in the U.S....yet I hear not a peep about them from these so-called minutemen.

"People of Hispanic origin are not the only illegal immigrants. There are more than 5 million Africans, Asians, Middle Easterners, Europeans and others from virtually every continent and nation in the world. Many of these flock to industries such as restaurants, home repairs, cleaners, convenience stores and many other industries and businesses."

http://www.timescommunity.com/site/tab6.cfm?newsid=15831688&BRD=2553&PAG=461&dept_id=506108&rfi=6



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Virginian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-07-06 01:52 AM
Response to Reply #127
135. Notice how all the day laborers are men?
Many of the women have maid jobs and there is no mention on hiring illegal maids.
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SaveElmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-07-06 02:13 AM
Response to Reply #135
136. That's true...
Though I have had the occasional woman come into my store looking for temp work...

This seems to bolster the point that the "minutemen" are not protesting illegal immigration, just hispanic day laborers.

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Virginian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-08-06 07:24 PM
Response to Reply #136
138. Based on the location of your store,
I think the people coming in to apply for jobs are from Manassas. That is a different group from the one in Herndon.

As far as what they, the MinuteMen are protesting, I think it is the Illegals. They haven't thought of the maid services as also hiring illegals. Ironically, they probably have illegals cleaning their homes.

Illegals can get around our labor laws by forming a corporation and sharing the profits rather than drawing a salary. Each individual could become an independent contractor, responsible for his own tax filing and legal status. There are all kinds of legal ways to get around illegal hiring.

The problem is with the numbers. The day laborers have become conspicuous. If they were a small trickle, gradually increasing their numbers, no one would have noticed. When someone drove down Elden Street at 8:00 in the morning and saw over 100 men loitering at the 7/11 just after hearing of a MS-13 murder in the town, it made them nervous. Herndon woke up one day and discovered that half it's population was hispanic. If they were truly against hispanics, this wouldn't have happened. The first settlers would have been discouraged from staying here.

I live outside the town limits, so I don't get involved, I just observe. I know people on both sides and each has a valid argument. The people on both sides are nice people. There are Democrats on both sides.
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Robeysays Donating Member (512 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-05-06 02:37 PM
Response to Original message
70. sweet...
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Maestro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-05-06 02:40 PM
Response to Original message
71. Anytime anyone does something simply to antagonize
and not to actually try to solve a problem then the motives are suspect. These minutemen are disgusting.

As to the few that have brought up language issues, however respectfully, please keep in mind that the United States is undergoing a paradigm shift in racial demographics. The face of America is no longer that of a White Anglo Saxon Protestant but now one who is more Latino. More people are also speaking more than two languages, the other primarily being Spanish. This is not bad. There have been no wars, that I know of, that have been fought because of language. In fact, language is not the disunifying factor that others contend. My contention is that it actually can bring us closer together. Simply because one hears another language being spoken does not mean that the people speaking that language are refusing to learn English or assimilate (I detest that term). You can never legislate language and any attempt to will fail. We are mosaic (not a melting pot) and we all retain little bits of who we are, our roots, if you will. Language is a big part of that. For those Hispanics that emmigrate to the U.S., being so close to a large Spanish speaking country, makes it easier to retain some, if not all of that Spanish. On the other hand, a Russian immigrant may have a tougher time, retaining that language through the generations because of proximity, or lack thereof, to the mother country.

As far as immigration, legal is fine, illegal is not. Of that there is no doubt. Unfortunately, the undocumented workers are being employed, for the most part, by cheap labor conservatives. Those are the ones to attack, not the immigrants themselves. They are just trying to survive. You would do the same if the tables were turned and you knew you could find work in Mexico. I know I would.
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-06-06 01:27 AM
Response to Reply #71
111. Give me a fucking break, they're harrassing EMPLOYERS
and that's where you have to go to stop illegal imigration.

If you can't be employed when you come here illegally, you won't come here illegally.

:eyes:

These guys are doing the right thing by going after the EMPLOYERS!
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Maestro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-06-06 07:45 PM
Response to Reply #111
134. Fucking chill out!
Edited on Fri Jan-06-06 07:48 PM by Maestro
That is exactly what I said. But the mintuemen do not go after the employers Walt. WTF are talking about! I am not talking about the those that are posting pics of a$$wipe minutemen. I clearly stated that the minutemen are disgusting, period! Those are the ones that are simply antagonizing.
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oregonindy Donating Member (790 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-05-06 05:45 PM
Response to Original message
91. Start posting pictures and address of business that hire the illegals
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SaveElmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-05-06 06:15 PM
Response to Reply #91
93. Still making the assumption they are illegals...
These so called "minutemen" have made no attempt to ascertain the status of these workers. Many of them come into my store looking for work, they volunteer their papers to show me they are legal. My understanding is that most of these laborers are here legally.

The people harassing them simply assume if you are a day laborer and hispanic you are illegal. That is racist.
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Virginian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-05-06 06:26 PM
Response to Reply #93
99. Estimates have been made that
the percentage of Illegal workers at the Herndon day labor site may be as high as 80%. The range of estimates is large and may also be a lot lower.
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SaveElmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-05-06 06:29 PM
Response to Reply #99
100. Whose estimates...
And isn't it incumbent on these "minutemen" to ascertain this before they treat everyone like a criminal? Fact is they are profiling based on economic circumstance and race.

Besides that, they are harrassing people who are only trying to survive. Nothing will be gained by their behavior.
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Telly Savalas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-05-06 08:27 PM
Response to Reply #100
102. I estimate that as many as 80% of DUers are illegal immigrants.
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oregonindy Donating Member (790 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-05-06 07:38 PM
Response to Reply #93
101. trust but verify. Make no assumptions
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kineneb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-06-06 12:42 AM
Response to Original message
105. a question, why VA, why not San Joaquin Valley?
If they want to stop "illegal" workers, and the businesses that hire them, why are they not out in the vegetable fields? Or are the MM afraid that they wouldn't be able to get fresh broccoli anymore?

The use of undocumented workers in agriculture has been a problem for decades. And as answer to one poster's question, the growers do not want to hire US citizens; citizens want good pay and reasonable treatment. The undocumenteds cannot say anything or they will loose their jobs and be deported, as well.

Remember the song "Deportee" by Woodie Guthrie (circa 1961)?
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Steve A Play Donating Member (638 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-06-06 02:07 AM
Response to Original message
113. In my view
We're all born on this rock
this speck of dust in space
and each of us deserves
to live our lives with grace
the boundaries we create
exist only in our minds
the borders that keep others out
serve to jail us all inside

Steven P.
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lostnfound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-06-06 09:57 AM
Response to Reply #113
118. First class. Very Beautiful. Very true. Thank you.
I do not discount the views on both sides of this issue.

But that is really, very beautiful and I think it speaks the Truth the most clearly.
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Chipper Chat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-06-06 02:51 AM
Response to Original message
116. The following is a translation of a smoke signal in AD 1655:
"To the Algonquian Tribe from your friends The Iroquoi:
Greetings. We must warn you of several white settlers moving in to our village areas. We fear they will take over all the jobs we now have and cause our land value to plummet. Our artists are now painting pictures of these people which we will turn over to the Great Chief of all the Eastern Tribes. Are we guilty of racial harrassment? We mean these folks no harm, as they are friendly and have no alterior motive like stealing our lands or anything. Please signal back!
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lostnfound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-06-06 10:09 AM
Response to Original message
119. Start focusing on root causes of intense immigration.
Many of these people are coming from countries and villages devastated by unreasonable trade or war.

I remember 30 years ago the debates about immigration would claim that the problem was that people wanted to leave the less-developed countries to the south to find a better way of life. "Until the Mexican economy is as strong as ours..." Yet 30 years later, a couple of trade agreements later, little has changed.
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Lefty48197 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-06-06 07:39 PM
Response to Original message
133. We gotta start blocking the Irish and the Italians from immigrating here
too. Don't forget the Germans. Well, except the ones that work in the machine shops. They're good at that sort of thing. And some of them Italians can lay a pretty mean brick. We should let them in too, but NONE of the others.
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