I just got verbally attacked by some crazy fundie Catholic.

I had just purchased a roast beef sandwich from a shop & was eating it while walking down a sidewalk. This lady stops me and asks "Hey what is that you're eating?" I told her b/c I figured she maybe wanted to get one too or something, but no that wasn't her intentions. She replied to me "What do you think you're doing it's Friday during lent, you can't eat that!" I replied "Lent doesn't apply to me lady, I'm Jewish." To that she said "Oh well you Jews are all going to hell anyway, so continue on eating your meat." I just walked away and said "I will, and I'll enjoy it!"

What the hell is wrong with these people?

today at my church at the Bible study I go to (college) we were talking about in the book of John when Jesus is at the temple and some Pharasiee's bring to him a woman who they caught having an affair. All the people around wanted to stone her because that was the rules. Jesus just simply stated: "he who doesn't sin cast the first stone." After that he went back to writing in the ground (he was doing that when the people came up) and everyone left the area and it was just her and Jesus. Jesus asks her if anybody condemmed her and said said "No Lord" and told they all left and he replied "neither do I. Go and sin no more." And someone made the comment of how they thought this story was there to teach us to worry more about our own lives than the lives of others. And the teacher told how some Bibles don't have this story there but I think it's a good reminder for people who do follow the Bible to butt out of other people's lives.

Crazy bat.

and wind up with it stuffed up her nostrils.

Honestly...she's obviously whacked out and rude to boot.

Besides I'm from Missouri, there are a lot of religious nuts running around here. You can tell that by some of the legislation they are trying to pass here.

And if I want to eat meat on lent or Good Friday, I will not only eat meat, but wash it down with a few beers. And I have yet to meet another Catholic who would have the gall to confront me about it.

Of course, I don't give them shit for acting all cultish either. To each their own.

celebrate Lent, maybe Lutherans.. But Mom never ate meat on Good Friday, one GF she had fried up a cheeseburger and taken a bite before she relaized what day it was. She spit it out and ran to the bathroom to rinse out her mouth. I don't think any of us 5 kids observes GF that way.

I'd have told the lady I don't observe Lent, I think, and inform her that not all Christians observe it.

Maybe it goes by locality.

That said, I'd enjoy a roast beef sandwich right now.

My family is Church of Christ (well my immediate and my grandmother's) and we've never celeberated either. :shrug: I knew of it but I think it's more of a Jewish tradition isn't it? I can't recall now if Jesus ever celebrated.

with a change in the service liturgy. But Lutherans do not follow extra-Biblical rituals such as not eating meat on friday or giving up things for Lent.

meatless Fridays went out in the 1960's

it is just optional (but still encouraged) and selectivly enforced by diocese and parish.

they call them now.

they get that way from all the mercury.

By Easter, there are a lot of constipated cheese consumers around here. Makes 'em grumpy I'll tell ya.

:hi:

Hi Bluebear! How ya doin?

constipated cheese eaters just got to me...

Ah, rituals!

shoved up their asses would help the constipation.:evilgrin:

though I can not imagine telling a non-Catholic to do it. She is nuts.

I gues they just stopped requiring meatless Fridays in my little part of the world.

signed,

A long lost former Catholic

time in your neck of the woods (I lived in Berkeley as a kid)...I know there are a lot of fundy mackeral snappers there.

meat on Friday during lent. And these are *supposedly* sane, educated professionals. :shrug:

"sane, educated professionals"

laugh of the night.

:evilgrin:

Control, control, control. That is what these modern religionists are into.

She's f**ded up. I'd feel sorry for her. There's obviously a problem there that just can't be fixed.

She wanted a bite of your beef, but noooooo, she has to go home to Mrs. Gorton's fish sticks, or Captain Ahab's frozen catfish steaks, or whatever.

And of course, if Heaven is going to be full of people like her, it will be a lot more congenial in hell.

An old saying.

"Hmm. Y'know, I'll quit eating meat on Friday when priests stop fucking little boys!" And then I'd have taken a HUMUNGOUS bite out of the sandwich.

her head explode!

It was a rule made in the Middle Ages to create a market for the
fisherman!

http://www.pbuuc.org/worship/sermons/sermons0203/foodforspirit.html

<snip> And do you think there was spiritual significance to meatless Fridays? Not at first. I learned that it began as an economic measure, a collaboration in 1548 between the Church of England and Parliament, which had on its hands both a meat shortage and a struggling fish industry. Parliament, supported by the Church, ordered all people to replace meat with fish on Fridays. The Roman Catholic Church then adopted the practice, in remembrance of the day of the week on which Christ died, and instructed that eating meat on Fridays was (suddenly) a mortal sin. This religious prohibition was so effective that the ban lasted until the 1960s, as many of us recall.

<snip>

Back in the days when Jesus was on earth, only the poor ate fish, and the the followers of Jesus ate fish on Fridays as a sign of pennance to show they were sacrificing meat products as the poor had to do all the time.

After shuch a long time that this was part of the Catholic Church teachings, they realized it really was no longer any sacrifice! People were eating lobster, shrimp, crab, etc. That was the reason the Church deleted the "only fish on Fridays rule".

There are still a lot of older Catholics who still abide by the "fish" rule even though it's not mandatory any longer, especially during Lent.

As someone who grew up Catholic, I've never heard it was a mortal sin. It was originally meant that one has to give something up on lent, preferably a fast of some sort.

factual and effective. I wish I could think quick on my feet also.

I am sorry that you had to deal with such ignorance while you were trying to enjoy your sandwich.

:banghead:

...THEIR religion should be imposed on others? Der Fuehrer clones, being groomed into mindless lockstep in preparation for the next election. Religion is a useful mind control tool for the unscrupulous.

Never mind the fact that Jewish dietary restrictions are MUCH more stringent than Catholic restrictions. You're still going to hell.

Hope you can live with that.

:sarcasm:

Salad bar is open till 10.

:eyes:

this past Wednesday;the booster club sent out a snail mailing reminding everyone and detailing items each class(fresh,soph,jun,senior) had to bring

I "lucked out" with providing an entree for 20 people

I shop and get a ham and also think to make mac and cheese

Tuesday all parents get an email saying banquet has been rescheduled

To say I'm annoyed would be putting it mildly

My kids attend a public high school

Because they eat lox.



I had a fundie bother my lunch .... I was @ a small place reading my paper and eating soup ....
I saw a crazy looking man @ a table close to mine reading a bible .... or using one as a prop .....
he kept trying to catch my eye ..... I kept my paper up .... finally he leans over to me and tells
me that God told him that he was to speak to me today ..... I took my sandwich to go and went
back to work.

When you speak to God, it's called praying.
When God speaks to you, it's called schizophrenia.

I'm in such a mood today.

that is what the nuns taught me. "All non-catholics will burn in hell for eternity"..PERIOD.

That is one of the many reasons I no longer belong to that brain-washing cult. They are twisted.

BTW, the 2nd ecumenical council (1972 I think) changed the no meat on Fridays rule. Catholics can now eat meat on Friday. But I don't know if it's retroactive for the poor fukkers burning in hell now for having a Big Mac before the rule change.

"Hey mister sky-person, are you burning them now or are they on parole?"

First of all, I'd like to say that that woman is due for a trip to the confessional for her conduct.

Second of all, we have changed our position on the non-catholics burning in hell for eternity.

Thirdly, no meat on Fridays during Lent still applies.

We still believe that SOME non-Catholics will in fact burn in hell for eternity, just not ALL non-Catholics.

http://www.catholicism.org/dogma-antisemitism.html

"John Paul II and other Vatican leaders are aware that some progressive Catholics are adopting pluralist positions on salvation, and that there is grumbling within the Church among those who would loosen Catholicism's claimed stranglehold on salvation even ever so slightly. In an explicit and pointed rebuke to them and their religious "relativistic mentality" — including to those in the Christian-Jewish dialogue who are particularly concerned with countermanding Catholicism's supersessionist teachings about Jews, with Catholicism's antisemitic tradition, and with its explicit denial that Judaism is a path to salvation — the Pontifical Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, led by Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, defiantly ushered in the new millennium by reaffirming in Dominus Iesus of 2000, a document which John Paul II "with sure knowledge and by his apostolic authority, ratified and confirmed" that it is "contrary to the faith to consider the Church as one way of salvation alongside those constituted by the other religions." Why? Because "the prayers and the rituals of the other religions" are lacking in "a divine origin or an ex opere operato salvific efficacy." So that there can be no misunderstanding, Dominus Iesus declared that "those solutions that propose a salvific action of God beyond the unique mediation of Christ would be contrary to Christian and Catholic faith.""


Now, that teaching is widley ignored in many circles (as it should be), but offically the Roman Catholic Church is the ONLY way to salvation according to Dogma/Canon Law.

Only the "new" "Orthodox/Tradionalist" revival sects are pushing this hard (and everything else pre-Vatican II). It is back to the old "us vs them" mentality. :puke: :puke:

Please note that catholicism.org is not an official web site of the Catholic Church, of any diocese, or any accepted religious order.

It is the web site of the Slaves of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, an ultratraditionalist splinter group. The groups founder, Leonard Feeney, was excommunicated by Pope Pius XII in the late 1950s.

So basically only the Catholic Church has the proper hocus-pocus to miraculously wash away my sins. Well since they said it, it must be true.

Uh - but thats not what the Muslim guy and his groupies hanging outside the convinience store in Dania said... and he sounded pretty convincing...

Oh, did I mention the Hare Krishnas I met while I was in college and what they said... they were pretty convincing too...

(Sigh) I guess I'll never achieve salvation, due to all the different people trying to save me.

From: http://www.cheesyjesus.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=29

our position on the non-catholics burning in hell for eternity.

How was that done may I ask? How did WE change that? I thought your god (formerly mine too when I was brainwashed) was the only entity that could change gods rules and commandments.

we were taught in catholic school many years ago , that good people, of other faiths,( Heretics, apostated,and schismatics), can be allowed into Limbo, a kind of nowhere. We were never taught that good people go to hell.

If that's so, and limbo is "nowhere" that calls up a kind of paradox that Lewis Carrol would love. Nowhere no longer exists, LOL.

--IMM

What does your mom say about you being a vegetarian?

About ten years ago, while visiting my mother during Lent, my stepfather and my family had ham sandwiches for lunch on Good Friday (all of us nonbelievers). My mother, a practicing Catholic, was out, and found out about it later. She not only went ballistic about it, she accused us of trying to insult her while staying in her house. None of us was even aware that it was Good Friday, but that wouldn't have affected our choice of a meal. If she had been there and prepared a non-meat meal, we would have eaten that, too, but I really didn't care if she expected me to follow her religious rules when I made my own choice for lunch. She wanted to use our status as guests as a way of making us follow the same religious observances she follows. I love her, but I find that ridiculous.

:dunce:


:sarcasm: (I guess she never heard of Vatican II.)

Where do you live? I used to live in Lincoln and the town is about 45% seriously right wing Catholics. I once was talking to a woman about
the parochial schools in Lincoln (I'm not Catholic)because my oldest boy went to kindergarten-2nd grade in parochial schools when we lived in St. Joseph, MO--and she told me "we wouldn't want him here. He doesn't belong because he's going to hell!"

Needless to say, I was dumbfounded. This was a supposedly educated woman.
My mistake, only brainwashed, I guess.

we have had enough penance.

you're down there.

she would have had a thirty-minute tirade from me . . .first about MY rights...than attacking every stupid thing that Catholic church has ever done to the world.

I have no tolerance for people who do that crap. None. I'm not interested in someone else's religious beliefs, particularly a stranger. Hell...you should have called the cops and told them this strange woman was harassing you for eating dinner.

the guy said "oh God, more of you people." It's not like it isn't on the calender and there are no Catholics in Texas.

He was obviously one of them.

It's sacrelige to put anything that swims on a pizza. You are a pizza sinner and you're going to pizza hell (a.k.a. Dominos).

In Louisiana a locally owned pizza place has a "Sweep the Swamp" pizza with crawfish, shrimp, and roasted cayenne peppers, big seller this time of year. I think I've talked myself into a trip home soon. :)

We had Mexican tonight -- I had lots of meat, she had some kind of mushroom dish, because it's Lent. She doesn't give me any grief, doesn't judge anyone else (an attitude she gets from her faith) and she would NEVER say something like that to a stranger, for sure. Most Catholics that I know wouldn't say that either, though admittedly my experience is limited -- that sounds more like something from my background, Southern Baptist. Now those people are NUTS!

I started doing some research. To say that there positions are extreme is putting it mildly.

After being being with/married to their son for over 25 years, my in-laws moved back to Oklahoma and became hardright Southern Baptists. I know of what you speak.

:silly:

The only thing wrong with Southern Baptists is that they don't hold them under water long enough.

If so, did they hear her, and if so, how did they react?

It has nothing to do with Lent or anything else.

It's a totally bogus rule. The tradition of fish on Friday's is coopted from Pagan religion, without the accompanying sexual rites.

:-)

.

..to fuck off and mind her own business.... Stupid cow... :grr:

Catholics aren't allowed to make judgements about someone's religious adherance. It's a matter of "examining OUR conscience". That's why you see Catholics praying in front of abortion clinics and not attacking people or bombing them. If anybody really did that, they are just mentally ill, that's all.

about respecting those not adhering to lent, unless he's as crazy as she is the woman the OP came across should be talked to by her Priest.

to do for my own personal reasons. That's my business and what you do is your business. But there sure are a lot of people in this world who want to be in everyone else's business. Next thing you know, :nuke: .

out of my face! Really this crap is getting out of hand! I don't feel the need to shove my non beliefs on others, so likewise, stay out of my face!

interpret the bible literally (Catholics don't)

Fundies believe essentially that you "can do whatever the hell you like" as long as you believe Jesus is your Lord and savior. (Catholics don't. Believe in Christ, but ones' actions are important for everlasting life).

I would say that the term "fundamentalist" applies to the extremist branches of every faith and denomination.

going "anal" on everyone. It's just that the real fundamentalists don't believe Catholics are Christians!! It's so insane.

A "Fundie Catholic" comes in two flavors, one is from birth where they are hung up on every rule out there and feel the best way to be a good Catholic is to pray 24/7, endless adoration, prayers, etc... all without joining a religous community.

The other type is a late in life convert, most of them are former Protastant fundies who saw the RCC as a way to go even more conservative with rule following than their past churches did. They are also the most zealotlike with the teachings. Often their approach comes across as a fundie-style Christianity with a few Catholic tweaks inside (e.g. Relavent Radio, Ave Maria Radio, EWTN...)

Christians? I have been told no.

Former Protestant fundie bitch-on-wheels who had an affair outside of marriage to husband #2 with a then married uber-Catholic bastard from NY, got knocked up, divorced and then eventually married him. He already had 5 kids with his wife but they donated enough money and went on enough "pilgrimages" to get three marriages collectively annulled. Don't ask me how that works because that should leave them with 6 bastardized children.

He had 5 kids with his wife, she had our daughter and they've now had at least 4 more kids between them for a whopping total of 10 offspring.

She's not just a crazy raving bitch of a woman, she's grossly irresponsible too.

So, yeah, they can be.

I'll also add that the flip side of that coin you used to smear Protestant beliefs looks like this: Some Catholics believe they can steal, murder, lie and cheat all week as long as they line up for their magic cookie on Sunday to wash it all away so they can start over on Monday.

In the wake of Catholic fundamentalist Tom Monaghan's plan to build a Catholic town based on a theocratic form of government, <http://www.suntimes.com/output/news/cst-nws-mon28.html>, we should all take this opportunity to remind ourselves why the Constitution protects the freedom from a state religion.

More than any other group, we Catholics should be thankful for the separation of church and state enshrined in the First Amendment. Unfortunately, many Anti-Choice Catholics have not learned their history in this regard.

Except in Rhode Island, most early European settlement in New England was predominantly Puritan. These Puritans were notoriously intolerant of other religious views, and they had expelled both Catholics and Quakers. Rhode Island was founded as a refuge for those who could not endure the religious intolerance of Massachusetts. Pennsylvania and Delaware were founded as sanctuaries for Quakers.

Colonial Virginia (and, to a lesser degree, Maryland and Georgia) had laws establishing the Church of England as the state religion, and it had banned Puritans, Catholics, Quakers, Baptists, and Presbyterians from preaching their faiths. While Georgia had laws establishing the Church of England as the state religion, it was somewhat more tolerant that Virgina and there was even a sizable Jewish community in colonial Savannah, but even Georgia expelled Catholics. Maryland was founded as an early haven for Catholics until the Church of England was established as the state religion, and Catholics were not even welcome in Maryland.

New York and New Jersey were religiously tolerant and diverse, and laws nominally establishing the Anglican Church as the state religion (a vestigial artifact from their religious-haven origins) were not generally enforced. Among the Anglicans, Protestants, Quakers, and Jews lived in relative harmony.

Carolina was founded on the principles of religious toleration, but ultimately even colonial North and South Carolina abandoned these principles and established the Church of England as the state religion.

Anti-Catholicism was flagrant in pre-Revolutionary America.

How, you may ask, could these various states join into a union as one nation? All you have to do is read the very first words of the Bill of Rights: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion."

To the extent that the desire to outlaw women's sovereignty over their own wombs is based on religion, it is a desire we Catholics must oppose under the First Amendment. Catholics, above all other, must understand this because of our history. Remember, it is not just the state that wishes to be free of the church; the church also wants to be free from the state. It was Jesus who said "render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's, and unto God the things that are God's." (Matthew, 22:19-21).

To the extent that the desire to outlaw women's sovereignty over their own wombs is based on public health policy, we must understand that outlawing abortion is an ineffective means of lowering the abortion rate.

In countries with liberal abortions laws (most European countries, for example), the abortion rates are generally very low; and countries where abortion is completely illegal (most South American countries, for example), the abortion rates are very high. In America, Pro-Choice Clinton presided over a falling abortion rate while Anti-Choice Bush presides over a plateauing or slightly rising rate.

In short, the means to effectively reduce the abortion rate is by reducing the economic pressure on pregnant women and not by outlawing abortion. Anyone like me who wants to lower the number of abortions in America should also stand with me in the fight to eliminate the root causes of poverty for pregnant women.

Priest lived next door to a Rabbi. Every Friday, the Rabbi would fire up his grill and toss on a steak. It drove the meat loving Priest crazy smelling it cook.

One week, he couldn't take it anymore. He rushed at the Rabbi with a small chalice of Holy Water. Dipping his fingers into the water and flinging it over the fence onto the Rabbi, he said: You were born a Jew. You were raised a Jew. Now you are a Catholic!

The Rabbi shrugged and walked into his home.

Next Friday, the Rabbi fired up his grill and tossed on a huge, thick steak. The Priest was furious and charged the fence, yelling at him that he could not eat that steak on Friday.

Again the Rabbi shrugged. Then he took his small bowl of marinade and dipped his fingers into it. Flinging the sauce on the smoking steak, he said: You were born a cow. You were raised a cow. Now, you're a fish!

Happy Friday, y'all, what ever is on the menu! Spring is just around the corner and I need to get my wrinkles pressed ;)

and it never ceases to amaze me how rude people can be.

..for such an occasion. I've used it several times. I didn't have to think up some clever remark, or rebuttal to the craziness.

If somebody is that rude, they deserve the rudest response they can get.

On further reflection, perhaps we're all being too harsh on the old dear. People who walk up to strangers and harangue them about religion may be one taco short of a combination plate. Not her fault.

I had lunch today with my Filipino-Catholic boss...we went to Burger King and both got double Whoppers, washing them down with large Cokes. Afterwards, he suddenly looked around in shock and realized that he'd both eaten meat on Friday during Lent and broke his Lent promise of not drinking high-fructose corn syrup (of all the weird things to give up). I promptly told him he was going to hell for it (we have a good relationship to joke around like that). He shrugged and got a soda refill, further condemning himself.

I personally lovebeing agnostic. We don't worry about shit.

/not really important, just funny to no one but us and slightly relevant to the OP

I'm 6'2" and bench press 550 pounds. I would have beaten her within an inch of her meaningless life!!!

JEWS DON'T FUCKING BELIEVE IN HELL, YOU SKAGG!!! Go blow it out your ass!!!

Next time ask her if she wears her fucking sheets as well as sleeping in them! What a douchebag bitch!

annoyance. The momentary rudeness of some senile old woman does not warrant a clubbing. CHILL OUT.

Are we supposed to be impressed with your mighty bench press prowess? You want a cookie or something? :shrug:

and know what's right for everyone in the whole wide world :sarcasm:

congratulations, i don't think i could've been as polite to her as you were! you are a superior human being...

Our church repeatedly got sermons on anti-semitism. Good ones, too, by some decent Jesuits.

Wasn't their a papal edict about two decades ago which said that people who are faithful to their religions will all go to heavan, regardless of the religion?

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the Pale Settlement, the Inquisition, the explusion from Britian, the Dreyfus Affair, the Holocaust, the denial of certain jobs, the regulations making Jews second class citizens. . .then come back and try to tell me that.

Theology) and for tremendous evil -- just like almost every social and cultural phenomenon. Indict all religion for just the bad things that have been done in its name and you leave religion entirely to the bad people. (Incidentally, there were progressive theologians through the history of Catholicism who were against what was done in the name of catholicism, but they weren't in power -- the key is making sure good people have a voice, and not condemning religion altogether).

Some of the most energetic, committed, smart and effective progressives I know have deep deep faith. The greatest progressive achievements in modern history -- the end of slavery and the civil rights movement -- were achieved in partnership with faith communities (and I doubt they would have succeeded otherwise). That should be a big clue to progressives, eh? You know, like, hey, why don't we look back, see what worked, and try to recreate that?

Threads like this one and posts like yours are disheartening, uninformed, counterproductive, close-minded...I could go on, but I'm guessing you get the point?

Sometimes the conspiracy theorist in me thinks that after the civil rights movement, the right wing realized that it was important to drive a wedge in the left and make agnostics hate people of faith, and that RW thing tanks engaged in false flag operations that encouraged a lot of not very thoughtful, impressionable people into responding "inquisition!" every time someone tried to point out the great power of, say, liberation theology. I would say that this has worked, but hopefully the tide is turning back.

in Western Civilization over the past 2000 years than any other Western religion.

We agree to disagree. You have optimism and rose colored glasses. I have a History Master's Degree, a History Bachelor's Degree and a library of well over 5,000 objective historical texts.

You see the world your way. I will mine.

The Romans saw Christians as they were. . .unfortunately, the Christian cultists spread!

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can claim to be something, their actions determine what they are. If someone can show me where Jesus (the founder of Christianity) advocated killing in the mane of God, I'll rethink my opinion of those who use religion to further political goals.

As for the OP, I've had many lunatics say irrational things to me (my Hindu roommates placed a statue of Buddha outside my door because I fed meat to my puppy once) I just laughed and assumed they were not representative of Hindus in general. They simply had some personal problems and used their religion in an attempt to back up their otherwise powerless opinions of others.

I am a Catholic and would never, ever do such a thing, nor would any, sane person I know, regardless of religion. If this happened, the woman is no doubt a nutcase and in now way representative of Catholics. The OP might have said 'a nutcase accosted me, claiming to be a Christian' ~ the implication that she represents all Catholics, is offensive and prejudiced, imo.

Occasionally, religions will co-opt a progressive social stance. This is usually because of some outside pressure. Note: religion consists of worshipping some deity, praying, and occasionally sacrificing some animal or human. Everything else they do was invented on the outside.

--IMM

You know that plantation owners gave their slaves bibles because the slave owners thought that in religion was a message that people should accept misery on earth because they would get redemption in the afterlife. However, slaves found in the bible a liberation theology in which god and jesus believed in justice on earth and was on their side.

I don't know why I have to repeat this: In the last two hundred years, the two greatest progressive leaps forward -- the end of slavery and the civil rights movement -- not only were achieved in partnership with people of faith, but their leaders were motivated primarily by their faith.

"religion never did anybody any good" -- that's just STOOOOOOPID!

For the most part, religion provided the rationale for keeping slaves. The bible supports slavery. Where were the anti-slavers for 3000 years? Technological advancements ended slavery, but the Bush administration, with its oh so religious minions is trying to bring it back.

MLK did not use religion to achieve his aims. He was a political leader. He appealed to conscience and humanism. I followed King and I'm an atheist. The notion of liberation preceded religion's co-optation. the churches opposed the American Revolution. They supported the king.

In some areas religion fills a vacuum for social needs, but requires payback by indoctrination and obeisance. It banishes those who don't subscribe to the dogma.

My general statement stands. It may be a bit hyperbolic, and you could find some cases that are not consistent, but it is true. Whatever benefits you could ascribe to religion are incidental and happen when religion steps out of its traditional role. For the most part, religion has combated social and scientific progress in our civilization. It has reinforced slavery, ignorance, and violence, and continues to do so today.

--IMM

No archeological records exist that support the liberation of Hebrews from Egypt. However the Bible is full of rules about how they should treat their slaves. And it surely doesn't say to let them go. Don't hold up a work of fiction as proof of anything.

--IMM

What has been holding it back from being manifested in the actions of powerful churces and states is the inherrent problem across all political, social and cultural institutions: it is the question of who is wielding the power -- a few at the top, or the broad base at the bottom. The bible itself says not to follow the pharisees -- the priests -- who bind up heavy loads for others and do not lift a finger to help. That applies to the historical low points of the church you criticize as much as it applies to George Bush and Rick Santorum today. The nihilism of selfishness of self-interest that manifests itself broadly in the church or in politics -- that has always been the problem of concentrated, immense, selfish power.

Democracy itself is a great idea that many value more than faith. Look at democracy today. A few powerful people at the top make many at the bottom miserable. Do we through out democracy because of it?

Religion and faith has been an instrument for great progressive achievement. You haven't refuted that. Hopefully, just like with democracy, the 21st century will see the entire structure reflect the will of all the people.

"Democracy itself is a great idea that many value more than faith. Look at democracy today. A few powerful people at the top make many at the bottom miserable. Do we through out democracy because of it?"

When a few powerful people at the top make many miserable, I submit you can't call that democracy. Yes, our "democracy" is that flawed now. Lack of power and vigilance has allowed our democracy to mutate into fascism.

Religion opposes democracy. It's totally top down. The majority of Catholics want birth control. They are not allowed. Occasionally, there is some sort of reform to counter religious abuses. It's kind of obvious when you talk to people that each creates his own god, (which in my opinion, is a projection of an idealized self. You're demonstrating that notion now.) At a tribal level, religion changes to reflect the needs of that society. When it gets bigger, it neglects the needs of the people to propagate its own power. It is threatened by progress and knowledge. See Galileo.

The situation you describe makes my point. Religion is unresponsive to the needs of the people unless it is threatened. Faith is then jettisoned for fact, its opposite. It assumes the position the society needs, and falsely claims it for its own. Sure there are apparent exceptions. The Quakers opposed slavery, but theirs was a matter of conscience, not faith. What did religion do about slavery before Martin Luther King? You might have noticed that he was black, and descended from slaves, and had a dog in that fight. Atheists have as well developed a conscience as anyone. Most that I know follow the golden rule, and they did not need religion to tell them about it. The nihilism you speak of is as much a part of human makeup as the altruism, and is in the biology, not the religion of the species.

I'll go back to my original thesis. Religious practice: prayers and sacred utterances, pious adherence to ritual practice, and human and animal sacrifices do no good for anyone. These are the acts that exist in religion and nowhere else. Comforting the poor and infirm, freeing the oppressed, educating the masses, etc. are occasionally adopted by religious groups when they realize they are in trouble, but they are purely secular humanistic activities. Religions like to take the credit. And sometimes they do a good job. But it's the people who do it, not the religion.

--IMM

today. I don't know how you can say that what we're living today isn't democracy (or, that it is democracy and that it's working).

In fact, you're sort of making my point by showing that, for your theory to be right, you have to either say America isn't a democracy or that it's a democracy that isn't working.

I don't think you've refuted my point that the problem isn't the social institution of religion or democracy, but it is who exercises the power.

Religion is not totally top down. Islam is a young, fast-growing religion that has gained so much popularity and power because of its horizontal structure and the lack of mediation between individuals and Allah. Ratzingers conflict with Leonardo Boff in the 80s and 90s (and the reason for lifting the order of silence on Boff) is about the top vs the bottom, with the bottom showing their power.

You should read Chapter 5 of Democracy Matters. It goes over all this. It's kind of stupid to have this argument without having to address West's arguments (and the arguments of dozens of people he cites). You have a lot more work to make your point than this back and forth with me.

If religion brought us democracy, it took its own sweet time doing it. And it took us through some wicked turns along the way. The Greeks toyed with it, but didn't bring it from Mt. Olympus. Native Americans had it, and inspired us, but we don't give credit to the Great Spirit.

In truth, democracy came from the free thinking minds of the Enlightenment. And it was mostly opposed by the religious. It coincided with advances in technology and critical thinking. Religion gave us the Crusades, the Dark Ages and the Inquisition.

American democracy is currently ranked 44th in freedom of the press, but it's the most religious of industrialized nations. It's not down to the level of Saudi Arabia (plenty of religion there) but it's a flawed democracy. The people want health care, environment, peace, education, uncontrolled media, honest elections, and honest and transparent government, and they are not getting it.

Chapter 5 will change my mind?

I think we will continue to disagree, but it has been a pleasure.:)

--IMM

Hmm. I grew up on Long Island, and you DON'T get more of a mixture of Catholic and Jews than the town I was in.

Not only did we NOT have resentment and intolerance of EACH OTHER, but we dated each other, socialized with each other, went to each other's bar/bat mitzvahs and confirmations.

I'm no longer Catholic, but *please*. Enough with the blanket statements.

to get the word out to the world what was going on in Germany's concentration camps. A few individual priests and nuns stepped up
to live their faith, but the Church as an institution did nothing.

And you can't say they didn't know what was going on in the camps.
Dachau was practically next door to a Carmelite convent.

See pix http://www.scrapbookpages.com/dachau/dachautour22b.html

the pope did.

This is by Ratzinger in 2000, so I think it is still current Vatican thinking:



In summary to me, that seems to say "salvation (ie avoiding Hell) only comes through Christ, but it's possible that he's working in a way that saves other religions too, since, being God, he can do what he wants and not tell us. However, any religious beliefs that go against Catholic beliefs might send you to hell". In which case Jews and Muslims seem to stand a better chance than most other religions, being Abrahamic. But it's definitely not "all who are faithful to their own religion will go to heaven"; more like "they might get away with it, because they were following Christ without realising it".

And the author of the OP is wrong in ascribing that position to the church.

Which was my point.

BTW, I didn't think that catholics believed, for example, that wiccans and people who believe in vampyres would achieve salvation.

...was no Catholic, fundie (whatever that is) or otherwise.

You don't go to hell for eating meat on Friday during Lent. A Catholic would know this. A Catholic would also know that the no meat rule doesn't apply to non-Catholics. For someone to tell a non-Catholic that they're going to hell for eating meat on Friday during Lent proves that this person doesn't know jackshit about Catholicism.

I'm curious to know how you knew this lady was a Catholic.

Was she wearing some sort of nametag?

Hi, I'm ___________ and I'm a fundie Catholic.

I think they are angry because they have to try ever more desperately to hang onto fairy-tale beliefs as reality. That damn real world just keeps attacking their fantasy land I guess.

or "All Hail Discordia". I made the mistake of asking one of my fundie cow orkers why they had put two Stars of David on their door -- had they converted?. I'm still not sure why they'd decorated their door that way, but I heard more about Jews, Armageddon, the Holy Lands, and True Chosens than I ever want to again...

is how frickin' emboldened and empowered they feel to attempt to force their self-righteousness upon others. Harkens back to a far earlier era.

Almost makes you want to start responding to such drivel with "hey lady the earth is NOT flat..."

Come on buddy, she was just looking out for you.:)

of all sane reasonable Catholics.

Jesus said, "Let him without sin cast the first stone" AND that it's not what one puts INTO one's mouth that makes him clean or unclean, rather what comes out of it.

I think saying either one would have shut the old bitch up. (Oops! That wasn't very "christian" of me, was it?)

>>guess I'll say another rosary<<

...but the situation is laughable

Fundies think they own the world and heaven above...

Wait till she dies and finds out she was all wrong about everything.

EOM

-chef-

Sorry.

...I find this tale highly improbable.

My local Catholic Church is having their annual Spring Carnival this weekend.

They'll be serving up all kinds of meat dishes in the food booths, pouring cold beers at the beer tent, and running Bingo games in the Parish Hall.

On a Friday. During Lent.

It's no big deal.

That's the Catholic church I know. Not this 'fundie Catholic' Lenten meat patrol bullsh@t.

"It's none of your frickin' business what I'm eating."

"BWAHAHAHAHAHA!!!"

"Oh well you Jews are all going to hell anyway..." - not before you lady. See you there! :rofl:

The anger is indicative of these folks being the type who are never satisfied with anything. I feel bad for people who can't be happy with what they have.

we asked him what to do if we forgot and found ourselves wolfing down a hot dog during Lent and he said, GO AHEAD AND EAT IT!!

of course this was during the 60s, before the present dark ages.

One of my classmates had a birthday on a Friday, so we all went over to her house after school. Her mom had hot dogs ready and was just bringing them out when one of the other mothers reminded her what day it was. They called the Bishop, who blessed her daughter (and the 'dogs) over the phone and told everybody to dig in and enjoy.

my husbands bat-shit-crazy fundie newly Catholic ex-wife. Bitch is on her third marriage, has a past that would make a sailor blush including getting kicked out of a Texas bible college for cocaine and lesbianism but she's BETTER THAN EVERYONE now because she's REALLY, REALLY, Catholic. Our (step)daughter has not been allowed to have any heretic Protestant friends for years now because she doesn't want her exposed to anything that isn't Catholic approved and sanitized for her protection. Lord forgive me but I really do hate that woman.

I reply that I've given up religion.

Sorry you had to deal with that.

Is it just me, or are people getting uglier by the day?

Worked too.

:rofl:

My grandmother would have stopped you and given you a harangue about eating food on the street like a homeless person....

I would have informed her that this was NOT Northern Ireland, just before I stuff that sammich down her irresponsible cakehole.

Bet she voted for Bush....TWICE!

If I receive one more command to conform, I'm smacking the shit out of someone.

...her children are secretly gay, Jesus was an Arab, and the Bible was written mostly by Roman Pagans.

...All they were doing was the Lord's work, clothing and feeding and teaching the poor.

http://library.spc.edu/mark/elsalv.html

considering how crazyass superstitious she seems

I had just purchased a roast beef sandwich from a shop and was eating it while walking down a sidewalk. Robert Johnson, Elvis Presley, Clyde Barrow, Bonnie Parker and Machine Gun Kelly stops me and asks "Hey what is that you're eating?" I told them because I figured that maybe they wanted to get one too or something and....oh heck I can't remember the rest but you can get the gist....

:eyes:

On Edit: Dammit spelling error.

She automatically thought you were of her faith. What a moron.

No meat on Friday was not "god's" idea to begin with. Got to help the fishermen ya know. Economics, my friend. Marx got a few things wrong, but he did understand that money greases the axis of the world.

My friend who is Jewish was walking down the streets of Tampa, when this crazy fundie approached him and said "Do you want to know Jesus?"
My friend quipped, "Not only do I know Him, but I am related to him!"

Too good!

in the 70's, it was mostly a passive thing. What I've noticed now is that these Catholics are suddenly acting like fundies, way more agressive in their approach. I don't know when the change occured or how as I've been away from tht religion for a long time but it is certainly not the same thing as I saw my large Irish Catholic family participate in so many years ago.

I'm not Catholic, but respect their beliefs, now why in the world why can't they respect ours? Being intolerant is very un-Christian (Is that a word?)

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it's off to my job at the abortion clinic"

There are Protestants who make a big deal out of Lent.

Tucker

most of the Prostestant denominations I know of observe Lent in one way or another but I always thought the fish-on-Fridays was a Catholic thing.

she's the reason i go out on fridays during lent and order steaks or burgers.

fucking christofascists.

BS. but lovely.

This post had degenerated to a flamefest