Am I evil? (A Rant)

Just read a post about someone not paying their student loans and getting their social security garnished -- and found myself completely unsympathetic.

My mother is partially responsible for this attitude. She and my father worked their behinds off to raise six children, and still put money away for retirement. We didn't wear "designed" clothing; it came from the garage sale shopping my mother did, and there was a system for the hand-me-downs we wore. My parents "did without" while watching their less responsible friends go on fabulous vacations, buy big houses, and wonderful boats. (Michigan is a big boating state due to our fabulous lakes.) As the kids left home, my parents were able to enjoy some of those same benefits, but always with an eye to the future. Their less responsible friends are now discovering that living within their "social security" means is ... challenging. My mother is not feeling sorry for them; she has too many memories of working twenty-four seven for most of her thirty-five year marriage, and she knows she earned what she has.

"You are so lucky," they tell her, and she shakes her head in awe at the nerve. "Lucky" was displaying some common fricking sense, and putting money away for when she wouldn't be able to work as hard due to age and/or illness. They used to LAUGH at her for working so hard -- and now they insult her by calling her "lucky?"

One of my dearest friends is married to An Idiot. He has spent more of his "earning years" unemployed than working, has never done anything to increase his income potential (i.e., education), and when luck ran out and my dear friend was the victim of layoffs, they ended up losing their house. They spent a year and a half doing damn near NOTHING to save it -- they were depressed, unemployed, and when normal life things hit them -- a storm that damaged their roof, and some common age related medical problems -- it was all over. They raided her retirement fund (he's never had one), and finally declared bankruptcy (which they should have done BEFORE they lost the house, in my opinion), but by then it was too late. They are now living in someone's basement, and haven't paid a dime in rent on it for almost a year. They still can't afford to move out and live on their own.

So, tell me this: should I feel sorry for these people? Should I take from MY FAMILY to give to theirs? (He's a Republican moron, by they way, and today starts back to work after being out on medical leave since September first with migraines, and then with a heart attack. He's 41, overweight, and doesn't bother to control his diabetes.)

When they were spending DAYS playing computer games (seriously), and their house was falling down around their ears, and that SOB was telling me that Kerry was a traitorous coward, they lost my sympathy and support. My husband and I work long hours, and while we would love to stay up all night playing computer games, get up around noon or one o'clock in the afternoon to begin the same thing all over again, we've discovered we can't do that AND pay our bills. How is THAT for a shocker?

I consider myself a liberal. Bad things happen to good people, and both my husband and I will put our shoulder to the wheels to help out our fellow human beings. I spent two weeks helping Hurricane Katrina folks with the American Red Cross, and my dear unemployed friend told me she couldn't come because her husband said "its their own fault they didn't leave."

A twenty year friendship damn near ended on the spot, as her absolute hypocrisy sent my jaw to the floor.

So, I am clear on what being a liberal means to me: I'll teach you to fish. I'll even provide you some bait. When your house is on fire, or natural disaster strikes, I'm there for you. But by God, if you are just too damn lazy or stupid to figure out that YOU NEED TO MAKE SOME KIND OF CONTRIBUTION TO THE PLANET, *do not* come crying to me when your chickens have come home to roost.

Unprotected sex results in an unplanned pregnancy? No shit, sherlock. Your kid doesn't deserve to suffer, so let's assume you made one mistake, and I don't mind my taxes going to help you get over the initial hurdle you've created for yourself. If it happens two or three more times (and yes, I've got some of "those" in my immediate family), keep your stupid whining to yourself.

Discovered you couldn't afford to put five dollars a week away for the future because you really wanted to go to Disneyworld instead? Whatever. NOT MY PROBLEM.

Can't hold a job because you don't want to get up in the morning after you've been partying all night? Welcome to the Real World: Landlords don't owe you crap, and if you won't do whatever it takes to make sure the bills are paid, why on earth should they want an irresponsible ingrate living under their roof? If they want to provide housing for charity, there are a lot more worthy folks out there -- those who CAN'T earn a good living because of physical or mental disabilities for example -- than YOU and your HEALTHY LAZY BUTT.

Don't even get me started on those who waste their finite resources on illegal recreational drugs, because that is a whole other rant....

I have discovered there are lazy scam artists in every generation, and someone who bailed on their student loans because they didn't think they were going to get caught isn't someone I have a whole lot of sympathy for -- the rest of us have to pay our bills, so why not you?

So, tell me: am I evil? If I expect everyone to do their best, use some common fricking sense, and behave in a responsible manner, am I evil?

End Rant.

...but JUDGE NOT, lest ye be judged.

I'm not even a Christian, but Sermon on the Mount and 1 Corinthians 13:1-13 are still the best advice any real humanist can get.

People do have to take responsibility for their actions or inactions.

It's apparant that the people you are referring chose to be ignorant...That's the problem with the Neo-cons they never look in the mirror....it's always "those people" they don't include themselves in that catagory....

I say they get what they deserve which is nothing.....they are selfish and uncaring people.

They will be getting government assistance sooner or later.....

So you are not evil- you see the truth and choose not to embrace their laziness and ignorance!!

The Neocons need a reality check!!

I agree entirely with you about student loans.

The NDSL program was bogus though. The schools had to give loans to anyone who qualifed. and lots of loans were written to very elderly peole (who wouldn't be around to pay them back) and foreign students who went home and couldn't be collected from. Millions of dollars were written off.

Maslow's heirarchy of needs, I feel like that some days.

because i know how ot do it. for those more challenged, they may not like that responsibility given to them

but i agree ida. my thought reading that thread. get a loan, pay it back or dont get the loan

bleeding hearts who will get their generousity taken advantage of over and over and over. But I think if I do what I can to help someone and they still don't try to help themselves, then I've done all I can. Anything beyond that is wasted when it could be used to help someone else.

Personally, I prefer the Metallica cover to the Diamond Head original, but that's me.

The entire concept ignores the temporal dimension. Serial killers aren't evil at three months old, and good priests can molest children. The whole idea is an oversimplification of the complex reality so that stupid people can catagorize things quickly and move on without smoke coming from their ears with the effort of trying to comprehend the truth.

I always say that every value judgement rests somewhere on a bell curve, and anyone who believes in absolutes doesn't live in the real world.

That said, I still practice charity to the undeserving, and I try like HELL not to make the judgement as to whether or not they deserve the charity in the first place.

:thumbsup:

How do you know exactly whats going on with your friends? You do not think for them nor feel for them so you have no clue as to what stops them to be as successful as you believe you are. You say they are fat and lazy, one reason is your friend is unemployed and wouldn't go with you to help the people of NOL. Maybe your friend had other reasons that you know nothing about. Again, the repuke lie came out of your mouth, get an education and you too will be one of the beautiful people, who end up with a degree and works as a 7-11 clerk. You also over look the depression factor, plus after getting your teeth kicked in enough trying to find work people give up. Also you fail to mention that theres not many good paying jobs out there and to waste your time working part time low pay jobs that don't pay enough to pay bills with, yeah judge away. Things are hard and will get harder in the next 3 years, but hey who cares, you have yours so you have a right to judge others that don't have. Liberal yeah right neo con thinking all the way.

One sweeping generalization after another to attack a fellow DU'er. Nice going.
The Professor

in the freeper nations blogs against those less fortunate. We don't know more then what others tell us and we go by those impressions. I personally know nothing about the op or her relationship with her friends. Nor do I know what is going on behind the lines that the op left out. I quit a forum because that was all it was, bash the poor and tell them to get an education, didn't matter if said person was working or not, but again whats over looked is these people that are educational handicap that can't grasp what they are trying to learn. We all don't play at the same levels as others, some of us are gifted in one area and ignorant in another. I was very good in english classes but failed math badly. The point is when we group all people into one category and say because we know someone we don't like doing something all the rest are doing the same as the person we dislike. Again how much was the op's opinion based on what the woman friend had told her about said free loader? Also if things are that bad with the op's friends hubby, why is the friend still with him? Thats the human failing we judge everyone based on what we hear and see without knowing whats going on with what we don't see or hear. Not to say there isn't people out there that are exactly like what the op is talking about, I know a lot of those types out there, women choosing men over kids, drunks and drug addicts that are just looking for a free ride. The problem with all of this is, when you try to rid the bad ones from the good, its the good ones that get hurt in the process. The bad ones just start another scam that gets them by. The good ones who try to play by the rules and do their best end up losing everything.

I agree with the OP----there are members of our society who feel entitled, for whatever reason, to contribute nothing, by choice, to the betterment of our society.

I believe that we should help our fellow citizens in every way that we can--we all deserve a good, free education, and we all deserve a warm place to sleep and food in our stomachs and dignity in old age. Our children deserve to be healthy, and loved, and protected.

But people who make a conscious choice to avoid responsibility, who make a conscious choice to do nothing to give back to this country, who make a conscious choice to ignore reality and throw away their futures get no sympathy from me.

All Americans are responsible for all other Americans. We are in this together. Those who choose to ignore this are traitors to their fellow American citizens.

Most Americans work hard and try to get ahead in life and provide for themselves and their children and these Americans are fully deserving of a helping hand when one is needed. For the minority who shirk their duty to this country and its people, well, what has not been earned should not be given. By "earned" in this sense, I mean earned by a conscious effort, an honest endeavor, to do what is right, to live in a way that is consistent with our collective American values. When these Americans fall on hard times, they fight to the end to pick themselves up and they are not always successful--they need our collective help and support to get back on their feet and make life what it should be again.

To look at our society through rose-colored glasses and assume that all Americans who are having a hard time are decent, hard-working folks is just naive. Most are, this is true, but some certainly are not.

A society, like any other collective, is only as good as its weakest members. We should do all we can to make sure that our weakest members have the resources they need to be productive members of society, but we should not be responsible for ALL of their bad decisions. When your life is based on a series of decisions, made consciously, to do nothing to better yourself or others, how have you earned the respect and charity of the American people?

husband as a friend anymore.) She married an irresponsible jack-ass who really believes everyone else should take care of him.

I remember one time during his decade plus of unemployment when she was about to get an income tax refund; she was so excited, because she was going to use it to pay some outstanding bills. She talked for WEEKS about how nice it was going to be to have those bills out from around her neck....

And then the check came, and her husband FORGED HER SIGNATURE, cashed it, and bought himself a computer with it instead.

I told her the computer should have gone right back to the store, but she was so mad, she didn't do that. He gave her a song and dance about using the computer to get a job, but then the money started going for computer games. ($40 bucks a pop, don't you know.)

It was about priorities at that point, and nothing has really changed. He's a complete waste, and she has stayed with him to her personal detriment (specifically, they are technically "homeless").

At some point, you have to get off your duff and WORK. Yes, work is boring. Yes, work is dull. Yes, you are going to have to deal with idiot bosses. SUCK IT UP -- the rest of us do.

And if he had been working on getting an education or something during that game playing ten year plus decade of play time, I would probably be a lot more sympathetic. The bottom line is that he still has no decent job skills, and at forty plus years of age, there is simply no excuse for any healthy individual to be in that position.

He's just LAZY. And we've "got ours" because we work our asses off; at one point we ran a business that failed leaving us $150,000 in debt, and we did without for YEARS while we paid off it off. It was and is always a question of PRIORITIES: either you have a work ethic, or you don't. In the case of my friend's husband, he doesn't have one, and she tolerates it.

(At one point she was working three jobs to cover their bills -- and then she would come home to do the dishes and the laundry because Mr. Unemployed was too busy playing computer games to bother.... ARGH!!!)

and she needs to loose it. Does she say why she stays with this lout? Because it sounds like he's not going to do a dman thing as long as she'll do it all for him.

Send his ass to my house for a couple of weeks of intensive man training. He'll be busy working so hard he go get a job just to get some rest.

at the place they are living -- mows the lawn, does laundry, cooks, dishes -- whatever she can do to help show the folks they are staying with that she is GRATEFUL for a place to stay.

He plays computer games while she does these things. He doesn't like yard work, you see. :eyes:

But she loves him (or so she says), and I don't know if she'll ever leave him. I've told her for years she was welcome to come stay with us if she wanted to, but she isn't welcome to bring Loser Boy.

What he needs is a good swift kick in the pants. Maybe someday she'll decide to administer it.

Sigh. One can only hope.

"The American dream begins with saving money and that should begin on the very first day of work," Cheney told a conference here exploring how to encourage people to boost savings and be better prepared for retirement.

Too often, workers are living paycheck to paycheck and are not saving sufficiently, Cheney said.

:rofl:

Franklin had money and made all of those lovely sayings.

Oh yeah. Franklin had SLAVES and indentured servants - it saved on costs, don'cha'know. So it was easy for him to save money.

How much money did the indentured servants get to save again? :think:


I'd love to hear their stories. We've all heard Ben's often enough, not that he's wrong of course, but his slaves and servants must have had interesting comments they weren't allowed to say at the time...

Artist or like your friend's husband? If so, your evil.

Some times thing happen that are beyond our control. Sometime what we plan for the future doesn't happen despite our best efforts.

Some people get very ill during their "earning years" and can't work.

Do your feel the same way about people who can't pay back credit cards, car loans, medical bills?

scam artist. I do understand that things happen to people, and I like to think I'm a charitable person who understands that unexpected illness, natural disaster, or other emergency situations do happen, and that is why I am okay with personal bankruptcy. (I understand Thomas Jefferson declared bankruptcy several times in his life, for example, and I find a great deal to admire about him.)

However, scam artists do exist; I'm related to a few. I also know that young, inexperienced people can get over their heads pretty easily. And medical bills -- dear God in heaven -- medical bills can DESTROY a family's finances with such ease, it boggles my brain!

And I would have been much more sympathetic to the Social Security guy if he'd made some EFFORT to take care of his personal business -- five dollars a month, maybe, for twenty years would have been a nice start. Something to show he wasn't just trying to free load from the people who had helped him out when he needed an education.

For instance, right now I owe a lot of $$ in student loans. There are two that I do my best to pay on time each month, and there is one college debt that I have not been able to address yet bc I cannot afford it. I am not choosing to do this because I feel it is not my responsibility to pay it--I simply cannot pay it at this time, and I bear the responsibility for that.

There are a lot of people who graduate from college and just don't bother paying off their loans--I have known quite a few who see this as normal behavior. It is something we should be aware of.

It might well piss me off that some lazy drug using person who's not even looking for a job gets food stamps and all kinds of government help -- but we can't create policy around "people who happen to piss SmokingJacket off." (For the record: everyone I've ever know who got food stamps, including my own parents, needed and deserved them!)

It's really, REALLY easy to judge people based on your own personal experience. It's much harder to understand them.

I worked my ass off in college -- I took campus dining jobs for every single meal -- scrimped, saved, never had a car till I was 25, and it was a junker... finally paid off my loans a few years ago. Do I have a lot of sympathy for college students with their iPods and new cars shirking their loans? No way.

But should my lack of sympathy and understanding matter much when I make up my mind what kind of policy I support? Only insofar as I think policies should be fair.

But the fact that I had a certain personal experience has NO bearing on whether it really is a good idea to garnish social security or not.

versus Public Policy.

If all policy was simply based on my "personal" experiences, then that would be a problem. But my personal experiences do tend to color my perception of the necessity of the policies.

For example, I don't like the way the Social Security Disability law is currently in place; I would like people to be ALLOWED to work, if and/or when they can to help supplement the income. My sister had relapsing/remitting MS, and there were times she was able to work, but she had to do it "under the table" because she would have lost the benefits when she needed them if she had been caught. The system was almost designed to FORCE HER to cheat on it -- and thus there was some frustration for all parties involved that she couldn't simply collect when she needed it (when it was bad), and be able to live her life as close to normal as possible when she didn't (because the paperwork process was so onerous, if she had tried to weave in and out of the program).

So, you really are getting to the crux of the matter: how to fairly enforce a policy so that there isn't resentment, and at the same time, keep costs reasonable since they are coming out of my (the taxpayer) pocket.

Since the money pot isn't infinite, it really forces us all to demonstrate our values in how we spend it.

Thank you for such a thought provoking post! :)

from the policies you support -- nor should you! -- but it's important to remember they are different things.

One thing I go around with is the fact that there are people like my brother who have great health insurance and who go downhill skiing and snowboarding -- when he tears a ligament having his rich-guy fun, the whole insurance pool has to subsidize his laproscopic surgery.

Now, I happen not to have decent health care at all -- can't afford it. It galls me that I can't afford to get treated for certain chronic conditions, but he gets to fool around in Vail and get his knee fixed.

Some of my anger is useful -- health care IS a problem, and should be fixed, but would I really support an insurance system that punishes participation in certain sports? In my heart...YES! But as a point of policy, probably not.

I think it's okay and human to get pissed in situations like the one you described. Just better to also keep a perspective... ;-)

...One of my dearest friends is married to An Idiot. He has spent more of his "earning years" unemployed than working, has never done anything to increase his income potential (i.e., education), and when luck ran out and my dear friend was the victim of layoffs, they ended up losing their house. They spent a year and a half doing damn near NOTHING to save it -- they were depressed, unemployed, and when normal life things hit them -- a storm that damaged their roof, and some common age related medical problems -- it was all over. They raided her retirement fund (he's never had one), and finally declared bankruptcy (which they should have done BEFORE they lost the house, in my opinion), but by then it was too late. They are now living in someone's basement, and haven't paid a dime in rent on it for almost a year. They still can't afford to move out and live on their own.

We have a family friend that is in the same sort of boat. She was married to a worthless waste of skin, that never held a job for the 20 years that they were married. He did nothing but tear up her house on various "construction projects" and never did anything past the tearing up part. She was the main breadwinner, and works as a registered nurse. She never had control over her own income, as he was a big intimidating person, and would resort to abuse if he didn't get his way.

Wait, it gets better. It also turns out that he had been abusing and molesting his own daughter for years. He is currently locked up now doing 30 plus years for everything. Don't get me going on the trial, and how his lawyer tried to put his daughter, who was eight years old when the abuse started, on trial.

Now he is suing from jail to get the house and all of her money that she earned,while he did nothing but screw everything up, as well as calling the son constantly from the prison and mind-fucking with him.

My point? Don't be too hard on your friend. It turned out, in this case, that they were so horribly terrorized, and intimidated by this asshole, that while it seemed to us that she was being stupid, she was just completely beaten down, and dominated, as was the whole family. We have since then learned to cut her a little slack...

People who dont' payback their student loan are molesting their daughters.

I hope you have some friends that go through some extremely tough times so I can crack-wise about it to you.

But that would actually entail you having friends, now wouldn't it?


Oh, and in your own words:

LOL :rofl:

I mean what I say.

And I have friends, family and a self that have gone through very tough times so I guess your hopes have come true.

Thank for hoping us "extremely tough times".

I don't think my friend is terrorized -- depressed, yes, but afraid? No. She really loves the bastard. He can be a very nice person when he wants to be, but his politics disgust me, and his work ethic makes him a waste of time. He always has these "brilliant get rich quick" schemes in the works....and NOTHING is EVER his fault. Sigh....

But I'm sorry you've been having to deal with such a disgusting evil man. Hopefully he will die in prison, and no one will have to deal with him again!

:hug:

we were married for 11 years and he's been an EX-husband for 20 years. i married him at age 18, and leaving him totally changed my life. i went back to college (with 3 kids, btw), found an excellent career from which i will retire in about 4 years, bought a house, new car(s), etc. my ex is 53, living on disability (he basically stopped working) and blames his problems on everyone else but himself. he also begrudges me for what i have done for myself.

sometimes you just have to make the hard decisions for your own future happiness.

unions that raised wages for all of us, full benefits, and jobs that weren't under threat from people in the third world. That makes a big difference, Ida.

Don't blame students who are finding their educations useless or so undervalued now that they can't afford to feed themselves and pay off their loans. Blame cheap labor conservatism, depressed wages, and offshoring.

Don't judge our time by someone else's.

I was truly searching for words and couldn't find them.
Thank you for finding my words.

Any system that robs everyone so Ceos get golden parachutes is evil. L9ons with outrageous interests is usury.We are all DEBT SLAVES and wage slaves to idiots who were born rich and who never feel pain silver spoon assholes like GW.
Yea that guy may have been a twit..or he may have problems.
But likewise the system is designed to exploit people and not everyone is blessed to live in the future as much as your parents did..
Some people cannot save not because they are lesser people,but because they are unorganized,people have problems in their lives their minds.. and from the outside looking in it is not always easy to see and to understand.
If you don't feel good about helping don't help.

But don't get self righteous about bootstrap pulling.Too many people get so self righteous about financial responsibility and frankly that is really stupid,in a system that does not treat people fair,that is so unreliable you cannot plan like your parents did when companies had a semblance of loyalty to their workers(gave pensions benefits ,bonuses were money and not worthless company stock etc)With this brutal selfish market I find any sort of financial self righteousness out of people pathetic. Too many people are a hospital bill away from disaster and they struggle too., Some are just tired of playing the game of bullshit that this UNEQUAL financial pyramid scam and never getting out of it's shadow and losing hope.

My father was confident that their retirement was going to be taken care of by the company he worked for his entire life, but my mother was not. At her instigation they ended up purchasing rental property with little to no money down. They put a lot of "sweat equity" into the properties, and it paid off; by the time their physical health wasn't up to allowing them to work as hard as they did during their younger years, they had built up a nice income generating small business of their own. It allowed my father to take an early retirement from his job (which was good, because he recently passed due to pancreatic cancer, and thus had about ten years to really enjoy his life without working), and has provided financial security for my mother. Not everyone could do what they did, of course, but "union jobs" did not enter into the equation: my mother's wisdom did.

She was also the one who taught me that NO ONE OWES YOU ANYTHING. She would give you the shirt off of her back, but those who live in "constant crisis" whereupon they are never able to pay their bills (and its always someone else's fault) got short shrift from her. I like to think I learned my "common sense" values at her knees, and I'm proud as anything of her.

My mother also ran a successful daycare business out of our home when we were young, because she wanted to be a stay at home mother, and they still needed money to put food in our stomachs and clothes on our backs. (Another one of my sisters did this, too, and used to make $70K a year doing it.) All of my mother's children had the importance of being able to earn a living pounded into our heads, and with one exception, all of the girls make decent money, while all of the boys know how to do laundry, cook, and clean. (The one sister who was the exception had multiple sclerosis; she unfortunately supplemented her disability income with an illegal drug business, so....sigh. She's the family's bad example, but even she had a work ethic to be proud of .. sort of. LOL!)

And she thought ahead and worked hard.Good for her.
But some people are not so capable under stress.
Some people are not clever as she was.
Some people work hard and still lose.
Some people feel more futile about the future.
And businesses have stopped reciprocating to workers who spend their lives and money educating themselves and working for peanuts for these Ceo's.

People have different temperaments.Some feel hope in the future like they can manage life,others are overwhelmed.

Some people get exploited because of the work ethic.

And tell a rich person who inherited their wealth from a robber baron family that nothing comes for free.These old money families get everything free.
Politicians get free medical care because of who they are, some doctors will cut(twip) their bills.

There is no moral superiority to what your mother did
She was lucky,cynical enough about the"system" and she planned ahead.

You see not everyone has a mother like yours to teach them. And I think to feel morally superior to people less capable of handling stress and numbers and fortunate than yourself is a form of elitism.


Some people do get things for nothing usually it's because of social status, largely unearned.

(My mother raised me to be independent, and I moved out after graduating high school.) Its made it hard to feel sorry for those who couldn't be bothered. Had one boyfriend who didn't share the same values, and was lucky enough to have the relationship end before I became his permanent meal ticket. My beloved husband is a hard worker, and shares most of the values I grew up with. College was neither free nor easy, and we did without to make it happen. (I have awesome Ramen noodle recipes! LOL.)

I have been very lucky; I have a brain, a good work ethic, and I have a "do whatever it takes" mentality (along with a decent value system, so I'm not participating in illegal activity). We aren't rich (far from it), but we have "enough" and we don't owe anyone except our mortgage company (and our car payments).

My brother-in-law is considered "diminished capacity" and won't ever make above minimum wage. We'll be taking care of him when the time comes, and I'm okay with that. I look at what he has accomplished with his minimal IQ, and what my friend's husband (who is actually quite bright) has accomplished with his genius level IQ, and I realize once again how lucky I am that my mother taught me so well:

Its not how smart you are that counts, she said over and over again. Its what you do with it.

I love my mother.

I'm like you, if a person is in need, I will give them the shirt off my back. But if they are lazy, foolish and irresponsible, forget it.

I got through my college education without any loans, maybe $500 in grants, and zero help from my parents. In other words I worked my way through. Went to school part time while working full time. Was it easy or fun, hell know, I would have loved to have had the traditional "college experience" But instead I went the non-traditional route, and I'm quite glad of it. I got a great education, and owed nothing.

If what you believe is evil, then I'm Lucifer himself!

Yes, there will always be a handful of people that take advantage of the system. Scam people. Cheat on their taxes. But, most people do the best they can.

Your mother IS lucky. You know, why? Because I know people who worked all their lives JUST like she did, invested in 401 Ks, and put aside money. Then, BOOM. Illness. Their plant closed just before they became eligible for their pension and retirement package. Their kids needed help. These people were just as responsible as your mom, but things didn't work out for them.

This is the attitude that the Republicans capitalize on - they prey on hardworking people and cut social programs by creating a deep bitterness in working people who feel like they are getting shafted. People are angry at having to work so hard - other people should as well, they feel. But, people fail to realize that those programs are there for EVERYONE. And, people need to realize that all but a very, very, few of us are at the mercy of circumstance. One illness. One car accident. One lost job. That is why the new deal was SO successful. It created strength through us all working together to protect everyone. And, now the Republicans want to destroy it.

My mother always saved, and my dad worked hard. We never lived above their means. And, they are having a nice retirement. But, it makes me sick to my stomach when my mom goes on about how smart they were and how stupid the rest of them were.

Bottom line. In this mill town - my dad was able to get full benefits and keep his job before the plant closed.

Yes, he worked hard. He deserves what he has - but so did many other people. They just weren't as lucky.

And, as for all those awful people who took vacations and spent some money - you know what -

My dad nearly died on the paper mill floor. He got carried out of his mill where he worked for forty odd years. He has quite a bit of money. He came VERY close to not enjoying ANY of it. And, he still won't spend most of it out of fear with the little time he has left. There is something to be said for enjoying life while you are young and able to do so. I am not advocating recklessness, but I have seen the other side of the coin and there has to be a balance.

Don't worry about other people. It is a waste of time. And, no one knows what another has gone through unless they have walked in their shoes.

You are not evil.

But, don't become bitter.

In three weeks, when I'm laid off, prescription drugs and healtcare are going to cost me $800 a month. Some of it Cobra, the rest out of pocket. If I don't find work quickly, my personal savings will be depleted in a matter of a few short months.

I know this. But what happens if it happens?

You going to blame me for something I did wrong?

How about *you* get a fucking heart attack, then discover all kinds of health problems you never knew you had? Then maybe you get laid off and run out of money just covering essentials and keeping yourself alive. You'll change your fucking tune, that's for sure.

Instead of whining, why not say a prayer that things continue to ge well for yourself.

And there you will be, passing judgement on me. You would make one hell of a republican.

you are LAZY (as opposed to incapable or unable), then yes I am.

If however, you work hard, make a valid contribution to society at large, and then bad things happen, I'm going to make damn sure there is a social safety net for you.

I'm also going to keep working hard to make sure Medicaid and Medicare are available to people who NEED IT, versus those who will try to scam the system (some of whom I've personally witnessed doing so, because I'm related to them).

I've already "been there / done that" with financial problems. (We ran a business that failed, and ended up $150K in debt, which we worked hard to pay off. We made a lot of sacrifices in our lives so we didn't have to declare bankruptcy because we were healthy people who could afford to dig ourselves out of the mess we had created.)

I don't mind "helping those who help themselves" and let me be clear that I think the medical situation in this country is INSANE.

But that doesn't give you the right to ignore a student loan FOR TWENTY YEARS and then expect not to have to pay for it.

And the fact the COBRA law has become UNAFFORDABLE is something I lay right at the door steps of the Republicans.

But, yeah, if you want to sit around, play computer games for ten years, and then whine because you can't afford to live, I *WILL* be passing some judgment -- in that I want my money to go to people who NEED IT not just those who WANT IT.

I think that is the phrase. Or was it "Suffer the death of thy enemy"? Oh well, it's more or less the same meaning anyway.

When people experience others' lives do they finally understand and become human, rather than the judgmental who haven't been judged yet. :think:

I mentioned that, in too many words, in my direct message to her. And like I said, I had no qualms showing her my life and what I've had to go through. I wouldn't mind seeing hers, but I'd find hers a warm summer picnic compared to mine. :think: I doubt she'd want my experiences... :D

I had a mistake, that YOU BY THE WAY DIDNT PAY FOR - NOR FOR THAT MATTER DID THE FATHER.

I worked for 10 years as a waitress

I work now in the corporate world in a contracted position

I await word on outsourcing

I have no savings

I am such a loser, I chose instead to feed and clothe my kid.

I chose to have a comfortable apartment

I own nothing except a 10 year old car

What kind of person am I -- I just exist to piss you off.

I think you put your money where it should have been -- your child. I think you did what you had to do to support yourself, and hopefully you have been putting SOMETHING away for the future.

Also, YOU WORK. Therefore, IN ADDITION to taking care of your child, you are making ANOTHER valid contribution to society. Your taxes are helping to fund the social safety network, and you aren't asking me to pay your bills when you are fully capable of paying them yourself.

I do hope you get some savings put away, tho, and if you can't right this minute because EVERY PENNY YOU HAVE is going for your child, then when your child is out of the house, you will still have twenty years or so to sock some money away for your own retirement. (But seriously, even $25 a month can add up to a nice little nest egg, if you get used to paying yourself first....)

If however, you decide you don't need to work between now and then because its too much trouble and you'd rather play computer games....

Then you are pissing me off. :)

good rant. No, you are not evil. But you are judgmental. The way I look at it, virtually none of us are innocent when it comes to the bad things that befall us. I'm fat. My fault, I know it. Some folks spend unwisely and lose their homes. Some are sexually promiscuous and get STD's. Some smoke and get cancer. Some don't wear their seatbelts and get injured. Some drink and get addicted. The list goes on. If we only reached out to those who deserve it, our problems would be over, becaue there are very, very few people who actually "deserve" it. Even the little old ladies with no money should have saved more for retirement.

I am a big proponent of compassion but not enabling. I know I have my own weaknesses and someday I will probably pay for them and need compassion myself.

But you're not evil...you are angry.

post! (Do you know my mother?)

And you are right; I am angry, specifically with my friend and her husband. Sigh.

And I *hate* when people who DON'T NEED IT take advantage of programs that are intended to help those WHO DO.

Which is why I guess the guy who didn't bother to pay one red cent on his student loan for twenty years just really torqued me off.

:hug:

it's a turn off. I don't think it's right to judge someone when you haven't walked a mile in their shoes. We are all different with different values and ways of living the only life we've been given for however long we have on this earth. Life is short, after all.

Just my 2 cents.

I believe the "base" of the party is so used to having all of their money given to them by their rich relatives, they probably don't know what a hard day's work actually is (based on Bush's belief in his base, anyway).

I believe a good work ethic and making a contribution to society while providing a social safety net for those who NEED IT are core Democratic principals.

And saving for a rainy day if you are able is Common Fricking Sense, which if it isn't a Core Democratic Principal bloody well OUGHT TO BE.

Stating that help is there for those who "NEED IT" is a judgment any way you slice it.

Maybe you should step back and take your own personal story out of the equation. Perhaps then you'll see clearly enough to understand that other people don't value the same things. For some people, working a dead end job may not matter as much as living and enjoying life in the here and now, since that's all we can be sure of in this life anyway.

How can anyone judge anyone else given what we all know about the type of jobs in Bushs' Amerika these days?! Jobs that are nothing more than stingy ugly nowhere jobs that don't provide enough to live on let alone save a dime on.

Social Security was supposed to be the safety net for all of the people in this country. Now the bastards are trying to take it away. IMO, that's something to get red hot-pissed off-angry about. Why not get mad at the real criminals, instead of those who are just trying to live a little?

That if someone doesn't want to work at McDonald's while looking for a better job, then *I* should subsidize his housing -- even if *I* have to work at McDonald's to do so?

Nope. Not going to happen. Won't do it. Call me judgmental, because I can live with that, but just because there aren't jobs out there you WANT to do (because maybe you aren't qualified for them -- bikini inspector, for example?), doesn't mean I need to pay your rent, buy your clothes, put food on the table, etc.

Look, if you want to live a little (i.e., spend ten years playing computer games), feel free to do so -- just don't come to me for the cash unless you want to work for it; I know people who NEED IT (my brother-in-law who is diminished capacity), and healthy, lazy individuals who can't be bothered to work because they want to live a little ON MY DIME don't qualify.

And if you read the rest of the thread, you will see that I am clearly separating those who are "in need" of community support versus those who don't want to work because they would have to get up in the morning.

(To clarify, "you" is a global, not "you" in particular.)

It's been almost 2 years and things are better though we still struggle. It wasn't easy and it wasn't fun to spend most days without two thin dimes to rub together. At the time, our family qualified for food stamps etc., but we didn't apply for them because we knew there were people out there who needed the help more than we did. Instead, we were grateful to at least own our own house-fixer upper that it was and still is.

That's why I can hardly fault anyone who says to hell with it all and who refuses to continue being marginalized and sold out to the lowest bidder, because I well know how miserable and dead end living that way actually is.

Instead, what I take issue with is MY tax dollars being spent on expensive bombs and weapons to kill people which only serves to enrich the corporate whores. And I have a HUGE problem with our elected officials who were elected to serve "THE PEOPLE" who instead serve their corporate whore masters while they so very cavalierly screw over the rest of us big time-look no further than outsourcing. And I have a GIGANTIC problem with these bastards trying to steal our social security and medicare!

You want a rant?! Here's what I say to that: HELL NO!!! HELL NO!!! :mad:

What I don't get about your rant is that the people you are mad at will only get public assistance for a short period of time-there is a time limit. I find your rant to be a total waste of time and energy. Why not get mad at the true injustices and inequities in this country? You want your tax money spent on yourself and your family? Then demand that the bastards in office make sure you and your family get your social security and your medicare as millions of others have already received that YOU helped pay for.

Now that's a fight worth ranting about.

What gets me are all these people who waste food and don't recycle. Tons and tons of food from institutions, households, restaurants gets thrown yet millions starve throughout the world. Our neighbors for instance, bought motorized cycles for ALL their children - hundreds of dollars, always eat out, go to monter truck shows and guess what they they are out of oil and they can't pay their utility bills.

My mother had a saying 'you have to cut your coat according to the cloth' meaning that you don't spend what you don't have.

The attitude you're expressing - that in most cases the rich are rich and the poor poor because they deserve it - is, I think, the biggest single difference in economic thought between right and left wingers, and I'm afraid I think it's fairly clear that the left-wingers are right and you are wrong.

If we lived in a world where hard work and ability always received commensurate reward, and everyone had the same calls on their expenses and the same starting position, then I think your position would be callous but justifiable, but as it is I think it's morally indefensible - whether one ends up rich or poor has a good deal to do with one's own actions, but a great deal more to do with luck or absence thereof.

As such, I think that one of the principle duties of a state is to ensure a living standard well above subsistence for everyone. This will inevitably mean subsidising a few people who simply choose not to be productive members of society, but it will support a great many more who have tried - and in may cases succeeded - but for one reason or another not been rewarded for it.

So while you personally may well not be evil (if I could judge someone's moral character from a single post on an internet discussion forum, I could make a fortune), I think that your position on this specific issue is at the very least exceedingly misguided, I'm afraid.

they deserve it" -- WHAT? I'm talking about people who can work who don't bother, and those who have the ability to save for their futures, but prefer short term gratification because there will always be somebody else along to pick up the bills.

People like that are the exception, not the rule.

very succinct too.

Of course you're not obligated to help this family - it's hard to understand why you've been friends with them in the first place if they are lazy slugs who do drugs and play video games all day.

But my bigger concern is the point of your story. If it is to imply that most people who are in financial dire straits are lazy druggies who just can't be bothered, that's when I start to get pissed. Wages for working people have never been lower - even with both partners working, a home is not affordable in my area of the country. - Even with two jobs, and don't even get me started on the cost of health insurance.

No, it's not the job of liberals to give a handout to lazy people. But it is the job of liberals to push for economic policies that will make more decent-paying jobs available for ALL people in this country, not just for people with MBAs. It is the job of liberals to find a way to make health care affordable to all. It is the job of liberals to try and make more affordable housing available in areas where speculative bubbles have pushed the average price of a home to over $600K.

As for the student loans - your friend borrowed the money, and he should pay it back. I still have about $17K in student loans left to pay off and have found the student loan co's to be accommodating in terms of payment plans, deferments, etc. He should look into it.

But it is sad that we live in a country where young people have to mortgage their future to student loans, when in many European countries, a college education is free.

We call ourselves "the richest country in the world", because the top 5% of income earners, who own 90% of the wealth in this country - happen to be richer than the rich in other countries. But from what I've seen in m y travels - the average working person is better off in many countries than here.

So you're not evil for expecting people to do their best, but your post seems to be taking the exception - lazy screwups - and making them out to be the norm. You sound like a lot of republicans I know.


BTW, though I continue to pay my student loans, I have defaulted on a lot of credit card debt. I work my ass off to keep a roof over my kids' heads ($1300/mo. for 800 sq. ft.) I clip coupons, drive an 11-year old Escort wagon, and can barely get by. I don't use drugs or alcohol or smoke, but it would be hard to fault someone in my position who did. I't tough for us, but I make twice as much as a lot of people who are working full-time, so I generally don't complain, but I shudder to think of what people making $6/hr. must be going through.

It must be nice to sit up on that perch where you are and pick apart all the faults of your acquaintances. I hope for your sake that karma doesn't bring you a stretch of the hard times that have befallen so many Americans. And hope that your more fortunate friends wouldn't start examining your lifestyle for inappropriate/inefficient/imperfect behaviors.

that's often unrecognized by Democrats -- is that the party is believed to support freeloading and irresponsible behavior. This in spite of the fact that the stereotype is held up on a daily basis by right wing talking heads, and that anecdotal experiences such as you mention are legion. I believe it's critical for this perception to change in order for the Democrats to regain a long-term political majority and garner wide support for liberal policies.

I haven't thought through the specific issue of garnishing Social Security to repay defaulted student loans. I can see where a case could be made either way. But the general point is crucial.

Being a liberal does not mean endless sympathy with irresponsible behavior. Social programs work a lot better when the beneficiaries use liberal policies as a stepping stone to a better life rather than as an excuse to take as much as you can get out of the system. It seriously undercuts the very policies most of us would like to see expanded.

Unfortunately, gaming the system and not fulfilling personal commitments are endemic in this country. What the right wing does is use that as an excuse to discard the entire liberal agenda, which is usually unnecessary. The key maintaining the social safety net is to be able to set reasonable guidelines and enforce them. Democrats should support a fair but tough approach in order to maintain and strengthen the policies.

JMO.

i can see why your loser friends have you so pissed off but the reality is that there are not enough good jobs to go around

if someone gets a college education and then ends up in a low-paying job no matter how hard they work, because of the realities of their geographic location, their industry, their gender and race, their class, and their lack of family connection, then they can't ever get out from under the student loan debt

you can get rid of even medical debt thru bankruptcy but student loan debt never goes away

the person who has the huge student loan debt obviously did try everything at his disposal to educate and improve himself and it didn't freakin work because the jobs are not there and everybody is not going to get a good job w. enough left to fund retirement, put a roof over the head, AND pay back huge loans that never go away

yes, there are lazy scam artists in every generation but what is the point in continuing to garnish someone for a debt 40 years later, this is not allowed for ANY other debt, only education debt

i conclude that in usa that education is considered a "frill" and a waste of time and our aim as a society is to brutally punish people who have the nerve to get an education even though they may not have the health or family connections to ever make a decent living w. that education

hell, in my state, you have to have a master's degree to be a damn librarian and check out books unless you are a volunteer working for NOTHING, that's zero dollars and zero cents, an hour, what do you think that does to wages?

people can't pay down these huge student loans, it's just crazy to keep punishing them for having had a dream, we are lied to as children, we are told if we work hard we will get our dream, of course many who work hard NEVER get their dream, that's why it's called a dream, and not a foregone conclusion, most new business start-ups fail, a substantial percentage of people never hold even one job in the area of their education

your loser friends are not on the same page as the person who is crushed down and can't advance for no fault of his own

some people would even point out that severe clinical depression that makes it impossible for a person to self-motivate is itself a disease, i have known a couple of cases where proper medication has allowed former basement dwellers to get a job, but still, despite their education, the time lost to serious clinical depression and alcoholism means these friends despite college degrees will never have "real" jobs that do more than provide for day-to-day living -- no saving for retirement, no paying off old state debt, even just paying for medicine is almost impossible, one of these friends can only keep his job when his doctor is well supplied w. free samples

ever heard the phrase there but for the grace of god go i?

most bums don't wanna be bums, you know, deep in their souls, they envy you

pity and scorn is natural but i try to focus more on the pity and less on the scorn

Which is the irresponsible part--getting the degree even though one is from a poor family, or having the audacity to become chronically ill and unemployable because nobody wants to hire someone who will be out sick that frequently?

Tucker

The one I'm talking about had someone who "forgot" to pay their student loan for twenty years, and since the government didn't come after them for it, thought they didn't need to pay it back - EVER. The situations is completely different from someone who becomes disabled (at least in my mind).

Someone that doesn't pay back their loans because they forgot about them is a crock.
Someone that doesn't pay back their loans because they weren't asked is still a crock.

however, are from a bunch of selfish right wing idiots, right?? The big difference between student loans and other kinds of debt is that you can't bankrupt student loans, no matter what is going on. And while alot of people could afford to pay off the loan, they tack on handling charges that are often several times more than the loan was to begin with. On top of the interest. There is a student loan industry, exactly the same as a credit card industry. The government was paid back for those loans the second the student loan industry bought them.

Yes people should pay their bills. But the exact same people who end up in bankruptcy court over medical bills are the exact same people who can't pay their student loans.

Damn right!

I mean, with all the economic safety nets in place in this great country:

universal health care coverage

free education

public ownership of utilities

strong union representation

strict corporate regulation that keeps good-paying jobs in our country

Any person who can't find a way to be productive, well, they're just HUGH LOOSERS!!!11111

:eyes: :eyes: :eyes:

video games all day instead of working when they are healthy enough to do so.

And if you can't find a way to be a productive member of society when you are healthy and have everything going for you, then I really don't have much use for you.

Please don't think this man COULDN'T get a job; he just flat out didn't want to -- and I know I'm not the only person in the country who knows "someone" like him.

And I resent your blanket statement that I "hate the poor" -- I just HATE the irresponsible!

If you have the means to save money for your retirement, and choose not to, then don't come whining to me about it later.

If you have the ability to earn a living, but believe other people should be taking care of you, bite me.

I reserve both my sympathy and my money for the folks who NEED IT, versus the small percentage who just WANT IT.

:eyes:

By your own admission, you declare that only a "small percentage" of people WANT uh...'your' money.

A very large percentage of corporations want ALL your tax dollars to subsidize their corporate interests, so they can sit around all day and play video stock market games.

Pick up a picket sign.

And invite your non-productive friends.
Sounds like they're not busy.

I'm willing to pay for it. I like teachers, firemen, policemen, meat inspectors, etc. I don't like UNNECESSARY bureaucracy, and I am appalled by "corporate welfare" programs.

Unfortunately, my "non-productive" friends don't always share my value system. He listens to Sean Hannity, and isn't big on actually thinking. :eyes: Don't know if you read it earlier, but when I invited my friend to come with me to Hurricane Katrina relief, her FIRST RESPONSE was to quote her husband: "Those people were told to leave, and they didn't, so they deserved what happened to them." Came close to ending a twenty year friendship for a little bit. I thought my head was going to explode. She later came up with a much better reason not to go, but for a couple of minutes .... Grrrr.....

There is a huge student loan default rate,:sarcasm: "U.S. Secretary of Education Margaret Spellings announced today a new low student loan default rate of 4.5 percent" http://www.ed.gov/news/pressreleases/2005/09/09142005.html

If i recall correctly, that rate is very similar to the rate of bankruptcy prior to last years bankruptcy bill and if I recall correctly MOST (not all most) bankruptcies were precipitated by major illness, job loss, divorce ... My guess is that the same factors are r/t student loan default.

We can all come up with examples of the lazy or "scammers," I'm inclined to believe they're an exception.

Sheesh... not only do I have stress about not losing my job to some person in China, but now I have to concern myself with how people may judge me, God forbid I lose my job and can't replace it with another one.

I won't worry too much about the latter... every man/women for him or herself. That's already a given. However, thank God I had help along the way, because I know that sometimes I'm not strong enough. Well... say what you will, but I'm screwed anyway.

I can live with that. :)

I am judgmental. Just ask any Republicans I come across -- they are just HORRIFIED at how judgmental I am about their little boy king and his minions.

I think of myself as fair minded, though. I pull my weight, and I expect my fellow able bodied citizens to do the same. I *firmly support* the social safety net, and don't ever want to see someone starving in America. I believe medical care is a RIGHT to which every American citizen is entitled.

I understand bad things happen to good people, but that doesn't suddenly mean everyone is a good person. Unfortunately, we have some lazy good for nothings in this country who have a strong sense of entitlement. Oddly enough, all the ones I know usually profess to be Republicans.

I don't believe Republicans own the "get a job" philosophy. I have no interest in being a permanent support network for folks who are healthy and fully capable of working. I'm of the "teach them to fish" philosophy.

I hope those who read this post can understand the difference between someone with those characteristics, and someone who is either mentally or physically incapable of being self supporting.

Many people have pointed out that "there but for the grace of God go I" -- and I get that. I'm a firm believer in the "to those whom much is given, much is required." I've been through tough financial times (we owed $150K when a business idea failed miserably), and I count my blessings that we were able to pay that debt off thanks to hard work and a strong sense of priorities. It didn't happen overnight, though. It was a tough couple of years. (Ask me about the year without a Christmas tree sometime.) When funds were tight, we donated our time to those organizations we supported. I was raised with a "give back to the community" attitude, and I'm proud of the volunteer activities I've participated in.

My dear friend and her husband are not recreational drug users, although my sister with MS was. (She passed two years ago.) He's just an idiot, and she is ... I don't know what to say about her. I would have probably kicked him to the curb years ago, but either she's just "stronger" than I am, or she's just a bigger sap. You pick. I know which one I believe, and I still love her anyway.

Yup, I can live with judgmental. Its taken me a lifetime of living to get to this point, and I am okay with that. :)

I don't believe Republicans own the "get a job" philosophy. I have no interest in being a permanent support network for folks who are healthy and fully capable of working. I'm of the "teach them to fish" philosophy.

Because it needed repeating! :applause: People with real disabilities and real problems deserve every bit of help our society can muster, but the terminally lazy, the fatally irresponsible, and the relentlessly helpless need a swift kick in the pants.

.......you simply have some common sense.

I'm can't even count how many times I've shared what I had (on a fixed income because of a disability) with "working people" who made the choice to live pay day to pay day in order to keep up with the Jone's so to speak.

I could go on and on but suffice it to say I couldn't agree with you more.:toast:

It's one thing if people are living beyond their means, but are you aware that almost a third of Americans are at or close to the minimum wage, which is only $5.15 or $885 per month? How could someone at that wage possibly do anything but live paycheck to paycheck? Even in the sticks (where there are often few jobs), a minimal apartment is about $450 a month. But in most cities the floor is about $800 for a studio. What does that leave? Why should people have to work 2 jobs for just a basic roof over their head and food in their bellies in "the richest nation on earth"?

I live payday to payday, but not by choice, and I'm making a lot more than the minimum wage.

.....people who were making MUCH MORE than minimum wage and yet paying out the majority of their money for every new gadget on the market, while allowing bills to pile up. I was referring to that kind of a "pay check to pay check", definitely I didn't mean someone earning minimum wage or even slightly above it. My apologies for not explaining further.:toast:

by knowing that they will never get a job that pays more than $8 an hour, know that their basic income will never allow for substantial savings or education, yet still CHOOSE to get 3, 4, and 5 credit cards and charge non-essentials, like TV's, computers, digital cable, Ipods, buy a car they can't afford, etc.

I go to school with these people--not 19 year olds--I'm talking 30 and 40 somethings that work jobs paying no more than $10 an hour, but live entirely out of their means. One woman I go to school with is 28 and has nearly $25,000 in credit card bills. NONE of them were bills related to illness, necessities, or education. They are charges she racked up when she'd go to Seattle every weekend to go shopping at Nordstroms and would buy $200 pairs of shoes,and $90 jeans. She estimates that she and her husband "easily" spend $300 a month just on take-out and Starbucks. She has a 2004 model car that is 100% loaned out. She can't make the car payments. She's defaulted on 2 credit cards but just opened another one.

She and her husband aren't poor--they make around $45k a year after taxes. We live in an area that has a very low cost of living for Washington State. Her immense debt is solely due to spending frivilously---why get the $200 tv when you can get the NEW top of the line $3500 flat screen LCD HDTV? Why get cable when you can have *BOTH* digital cable with all the channels *AND* DISH network? Why buy a 5 year old car when you can get a 5 month old car for 3x's the price? Why buy $20 jeans at Old Navy when you can spend a day in Seattle and rack up $2,000 in charges for clothes you'll only wear once.

She has COMPLETLY made the choice to live paycheck to paycheck. She's always complaining about how she can't answer her phone because she has bill collectors hounding her. Yet two seconds later, she talks about this really great living room set they just bought last weekend that *ONLY* cost $8,000 and what's even greater, they don't have to pay interest for SIX WHOLE MONTHS!!!

This isn't a dumb broad. This is a twice-college educated woman. Her husband is college educated. They both came from financially stable families. She is organized and has tons of intelligence. But she has no concept of budgeting and setting priorities. She has said to me at least twice that she'd rather be homeless but wearing $200 shoes than live in a mansion but wearing clothes from Walmart :eyes:

Not everyone who is "poor" or "paycheck to paycheck" is that way because they befell hard times, or can't get a leg up. Hell, my family is *FULL* of people whose lives are dicated by the idea of "instant gratification". Credit Cards are endless supply of cash. It doesn't matter that they only make $17k a year, they *WILL* spend $5,000 on a home entertainment center. It doesn't matter if they just got their phone cut off because they couldn't make the payments--they'll just go get this BRAND NEW CELLPHONE WITH VIDEOCAMERA that costs $300 per phone, sign up for 2 years and then break the contract in 3 months when they can't pay. They bemoan the lack of food in the cabinets, but don't associate the lack of food in the cabinets with the fact that they just put down $2500 on a fucking computer.

It doesn't take genius-level IQ to understand basic finances--if you only make X an hour, or Y a year, it might just be foolish to buy something that costs Y+1/2Y that isn't an essential item necessary for your survival. I mean, I'm not saying that people have no right to fun and entertainment, but I fail to have sympathy for someone who lives "paycheck to paycheck" but makes the conscious decision to live that way by taking part in this consumer-driven economy isntead of looking at their priorities and spending accordingly.

Want cable TV? Fine. Go at it. But why Cable + Digital Cable + All the movie channels which is about $150 a month (at least for with my cable company). $150 a month for digital cable + movie channels versus $80 a month for analog cable with movie channels.

$35,000 for a 2004 car vs. $21,000 for a 2003 car? Yes, a car is a necessity, especially where I live, but not a NEW car. With leather. And GPS. And DVD. And a sunroof.

of what I was complaining about.

Nine times out of ten with the people I know, the problem isn't a lack of money, but a problem with prioritizing "needs versus wants."

One of my OTHER good friends is a perfect example of this. They had a very nice (but small) home in a mediocre neighborhood with small payments. When she got pregnant, they decided to buy a bigger home. Nothing wrong with that, right? So, they bought a much larger home (with a bigger house payment), have two small children and a firm desire to keep her a "stay at home mom" -- and can't afford to put their oldest in the pre-school they want -- BUT she can afford to eat out for lunch two or three times a week...?

I mean, come on! Its not like they didn't know the babies were going to need to go to school, and they knew how much the school she wanted to take them to was going to cost, but now they are in scramble mode, with him saying "if they can't afford it, then they just won't go to pre-school" (because he doesn't want them going to a "public" school).

But its a very nice house.

(Did I mention they took out a second mortgage to get the basement refinished to the tune of another twenty grand of debt?)

:banghead:

It does illustrate how much the under-50 generations are completely inculcated from birth into the consumer culture, and items that are really luxury items are now considered by many to be necessities. But I assure you that for every person like that, there are plenty of folks in hock merely because of low wages and high costs of living. Their "frivolous purchases" on their cards are things like a microwave, because their 2 jobs don't allow them to cook from scratch, or even food because they were short to pay rent. The cost of housing in some areas is so high that a lot of people who are ineligible for food stamps have to use a credit card to buy food. I don't excuse people like you describe - I've known a few like that myself - living in a crappy apartment, but buying big-screen TVs and fancy late-model cars, but an awful lot of us are not like that. Even food has gotten sky-high where I live - even using coupons, buying off-brands or on sale or bulk, I still have to spend about $600/mo on groceries to feed our family of four - and we seldom eat out. (and never eat out for lunch)

But the people you bring up also bring up some other questions - why do the card companies give cards to people without enough income, or who are already clearly overextended with too many balances? Why it's almost as though they want people up to the limit, or even over limit (OVERLIMIT FEE!), which triggers a jump in interest rate (28%!), which usually makes the borrower eventually fall behind (LATE FEES!).

Again, I don't excuse it but the card companies dangle these cards and their promise of wonderful shopping in front of hapless people, as corporations bombard them with advertising telling them that they NEED THIS NEW DOODAD! I personally think it's time that the government enacted much stronger laws about how much card companies can lend people in relation to their income. Nobody should be able to borrow more than 10% of their annual income on credit cards! It is a trap these companies are setting for people, and it shouldn't be legal. The onerous fees and rate hikes should also be curtailed.

And when you think about that, you can't help but think about the fact that a huge chunk of our economy since the Reagan years has been supported by this huge explosion in credit card debt. So in other words, wealthy stockholders are getting rich off the foolishness of spendthrift borrowers. What would happen to those folks' portfolios if the gov't finally imposed some discipline on card companies and borrowers? I don't know, but I'd like to see it. It's about time that companies started paying decent wages so our economic growth could be based on spending from actual EARNINGS, instead of credit borrowing from bubble-inflated home equity...

PS - my car was $3000 and 5 years old when I bought it in 2000. I'm about to try to sell it for $1500...

I was born in 1976 and my mother never made more than $12,000 a year BEFORE taxes until I was well out of high school. I know about living meager. I know about having to decide between paying the rent or paying the water. Phone? We had none of that. We had no cable either. We had a car that cost more to continuously fix every 6 months than the freaking blue book value of it.

We lived in a trailer with holes in the floor, no AC, no heat, and had more roaches than a dump does.

My mom was a single mother from before I was born through..well..even now. I am an only child. She knew that she could barely afford to have one, much less two. Or three. I looked so forward to Christmas because that's when the people at the local church would drop by with socks and underwear and a bookbag for me because my name was on the angel tree. I know about food banks and food stamps and all that jazz.

Even when I "grew up" and moved out of my mother's house and in with my now-husband, we lived quite frugally. We lived in South Carolina and minimum wage was about....$5 an hour (I think it's still around there). The two of us barely made $20k combined a year before taxes. We had nothing new. But we always tried to save. Five dollars here, $10 there. Not saying we're "better" because of it, but I look at my same-aged friends, who were at the same-wage jobs, who weren't putting that $10 away for the future, but would spend that $10 before they even cashed the check. They weren't paycheck to paycheck ONLY because they were wage slaves (and they were), but they compounded the problem by friviously spending every single penny they had. I had a friend of mine that had a GOAL of spending every dollar of her paycheck (which she got on Friday) by Sunday Night. If she didn't spend it all by Sunday, she somehow felt inadequate--seriously. I won't call her a shop-a-holic, but I'd call her a consume-a-holic. Didn't matter what she spent the money on, as long as she spent something.

I find credit cards to be the worst of the worst industries. I feel that they complety prey on those that they know don't have the financial means to spend the way they can with Credit Cards. But I don't know if I agree that CC"s should limit customers ONLY because I think that people HAVE to take financial responsibility for their lives at some point. Before I limited CC's, I'd limit them in their astronomical interest rates and predatory lending practices...one day late? Great. $100 late fee PLUS interest jumps up 200% PLUS your credit is ruined.

My mom is a great example of a credit card's wet dream. She had THOUSANDS of dollars--around $35,000 in CC bills. I couldn't figure out WHAT she was buying---well, she was getting cash advances. $20 charge on top of extra interest.

She was buying Avon---$150 a month for freaking MAKEUP?

She had a credit card through some catalog clothing company. She wanted a dress, they gave her a card with something stupid like a $2,000 limit and she felt that they gave her that limit for a reason so she racked up the charges

She had a credit card for Fingerhut--again, $1500 limit means I HAVE TO SPEND $1500!!!

You know, now that I type that out, I do agree with you. Why does someone need a $2000 limit for a catalog-clothing credit card? It's ASKING to be abused, especially by people who can least afford to abuse it.

Credit Cards have become a pancea of our society. Can't afford it? Fuck Saving--just CHARGE IT!!!!! Visa is EVERYWHERE you want to be, even if you shouldn't be there in the first fucking place.

I have COMPLETE sympathy for people who are poor because of absolutely no reason other than low wages and shit like that. NO ONE should have to try to live on $5.50 an hour. NO ONE. That is insane to even attempt to have ONE person live on that salary, much less ONE person with ONE child---how can it be done?

One thing I think should be MANDATORY is an accounting/household budgeting class. Not just one year in high school---start that shit in MIDDLE School. Start it in Elementary School when kids are getting allowances. If you get $10 a month and you want a game that costs $20 and a bag that costs $19.99, how many months do you have to save to get it?

I graduated high school unable to write a check. I didn't get a checking account until I was 21 and blew that shit right out of the water. Balance a check book...what dat? Insufficient Funds? How can that be....I deposited $300 a month ago, and don't know how much I spent since then because I don't keep track......

I LIVED the consumer-driven life when I first got a job and was livin' on my own and was miss SPEND SPEND SPEND. And I have NOTHING to show for those years. Yeah, I still have some jeans and a pair of shoes or two...but I figure that in about 2 years, I spent around $30,000 on NOTHING. THankfully, it was all cash and not CC's...but it's just ridiculous to live that way. Thank GOD it wasn't on CC's because my credit score would be in the toilet. I knew a girl when I was 21 that was around my age and was getting ready to file bankrupcy because she had spent SO much on her CC's. Her parents were wealthy but refused to pay her bills. They're like "you spent it, you pay it!" and at 25, she filed bankrupcy. As soon as the 7 years passed, seh filed bankrupcy again for the same thing. Absolutely insane!!! And for no reason. Not for medical bills or education or childcare or food or housing. For clothes. And a car. and some CD's, and going out to bars, and shit like that.

Are you privvy to the personal circumstances surrounding this person's problem?

and he loves to play computer games. He always leaves jobs because his bosses are "mean" or "unreasonable" or "he doesn't like them." She used to make good money before she was laid off (despite not having a degree), but that ship has sailed for now, and he didn't decide he needed to get a job until they were already in the foreclosure process. (She had been actively looking, but her skill set is not in high demand in our area.)

I would undoubtedly place more of the blame for their dire financial situation on her shoulders if I hadn't watched her work her butt off consistently during the last twenty years. He, on the other hand, has spent more of the last twenty years UNEMPLOYED with "big schemes" than employed.

He's a lazy useless git, and she loves him anyway, which is why they are living in someone else's basement for free.

But she mows the lawn, and stuff. He doesn't because he doesn't like to do yard work. Or laundry. Or cooking. Or cleaning. Etc. :eyes:

Depression can sap the will to live right out of you.People who are depressed can look lazy to people who have never been depressed.

You never know.

I am on disability for pstd and I have ADHD and I suffer bad depression. To some people on the outside looking in I bet look lazy especially to self righteous puritan work ethic types who MANAGE to do the shit I cannot do.I cannot manage my own fucked up life,I get stressed out over shit other people handle fine,I get unmotivated,I feel like killing myself because of it. I can't keep track of bills consistently.
It's not because I don't want to,it's because I can't.I loser time I forget what fucking day it is.. I cannot manage w hat other people seem to manage and it causes me no end of frustration and sometimes shame. I wish so bad I was not traumatized,than maybe I would be an "efficient" proper functioning happy "citizen" like everyone else seems to be.Do and pay everything on time, on schedule and please every fucking hypocritical, greedy, self righteous,ignorant,unforgiving,bitter controlling authoritarian asshole who farms out his own responsibilities while scolding others for not being responsible,hellbent making life harder than it has to be for billions of people including me..I HATE this world.When I am dead there will be one less lazy drain on this oh so utilitarian,efficient INHUMAN economy ..Social darwinism in puritan drag..Ohh the sacred work ethic it rules the hypocritical moral center in some people.

If I had never been in the psych system before and my problems were still undiagnosed,I bet my furry ass you and thousands of other self righteous normal "functioning" workaholic well organized prim "appropriate" people would be harping on my evil laziness and my terrible "irresponsibility" as if you KNEW how another's life is like as you CARED enough to empathize with someone you think is so fucking immorally lazy and beneath you, more than be bitter about thier lives you are too scared to understand lest you be tempted by the sin of sloth to take your nose from the grindstone ..Think about it.

I was more tolerant in my other posts..But not now.I have had it with the puritan work ethic social darwinists.Bitter assholes and self righteous to boot..fuck'em.

I have an aunt who suffers from it, and she is on disability because of it. Nevertheless, she still manages to earn additional funds by making and selling jewelry and t-shirts as a "sun-bird" motor home person. I do not begrudge her the additional income, nor do I begrudge her the disability money because her condition will always prevent her from being able to hold down a job that will pay decently.

That being said, I refer you to the point I keep making OVER AND OVER AGAIN: HEALTHY. The husband of my dear friend may or may not suffer from depression (which can be treated in more cases than ever before), but it has certainly never stopped him from spending days playing computer games, prevented him from taking nice vacations (while unemployed), or indulging in a variety of hobbies (of various costs and expenses). I am not talking about a man who suffers from a disability that a swift kick in the ass wouldn't cure. I'm talking "entitled" and "lazy." I do understand what's going on with the man, and my sympathy was finished a while ago. You can read some examples of his behavior throughout this thread; if you wish to finance his lifestyle, I will be happy to provide you with his information in a private message. Personally, I am saving my money for people who NEED it. The nice thing about being able to donate funds is that I get to choose where my money goes.

Yes, I do have a puritan work ethic, and I have a great deal of respect for those who exhibit this trait that I admire. I believe that those who can make a contribution to society should do so. "To those whom much is given, much is expected." Etc. I find your dismissal of it sad, but not unexpected, as those of us who contribute to the care and well being of others with our tax dollars, time and energy are frequently dismissed as "unworthy of respect" because we are SO LUCKY. :eyes:

Well, I *am* LUCKY. I am healthy, intelligent, and have a good value system. I support my local charitable organizations, and while I expect nothing in return, I feel as if I receive a lot because they help those I can't always see. If I didn't get my ass out of bed every morning, I wouldn't be able to do that, and to make sure I can get my tuckus out of bed, I can't stay up all night playing computer games.

Sloth as a sin? Damn right. If I CAN do something AND DON'T, well, that is just about as low as a person can sink, in my opinion. The complete lack of self esteem that would be exhibiting -- the lack of honor and integrity -- the dismissal of one's duties to the community at large -- what the hell kind of person would I be if I was that way?

Not someone I would want to know. (shudder)

But if you can't understand the difference between someone who WON'T versus someone who CAN'T, then I feel sorry for you. And, if you want, you can send me money to support the lifestyle you think I should enjoy if I *decide* I don't want to make a living. PM me; I'll give you my address.

:)

That means we get free room and board, then? Where we can be as loud as we want and do our dishes when we want and live with substandard garbage as "appliances"?

I pay dearly for a small apartment. And it's almost a joke. And it's also the best place within a reasonable distance from work. And they know it too. I'm just writing down incidents and notes so they don't sock me penalties for the day I do move out. And I'm being 100% fair on those; I know what I do need to replace and I know what I don't and they're not going to try to stick it to me... and they have been ethical in other ways so I shouldn't be so needlessly emotive about it all.

I'm too tired to point out where I do agree and disagree with you and you'd be surprised at what I agree with. But I wanted to mention the landlord point...

BTW: When bad fortune hits you, remember your rant and see how it applies. The world is made up of all types. I know my sins and I know where I've been a victim.

One other thing: "Lucky" is not irrational, particularly in this day and age. People who have kept educated have been jobless for YEARS. Many people who see the cost of college and who see proper paying jobs going out the door no longer bother. They see there may not be any luck at all. Which reminds me: LIFE IS A GAMBLE.

You are a realist.

Many would rather think outside the box reality has been shoved into.

it's just life. It's a gamble and finite. And not always what we expect it to be or prosperous either.

Just cherish each day and do the right thing when you can. I am; I've been learning - and making mistakes. And doing what I can to learn from them and not relapse. And if I end up paralyzed or dead before I've paid back my debts, then it's my loss and you can remain as haughty as you like; I'm amazed I care enough to have responded at all. Like the rest of us, but I digress. At least I learned; never mind having emotional problems due to the environment I grew up in. An environment I'd have no qualms making others live in if it got them to open their microcephalic brains to how reality isn't always what they think it to be. x(

My point is this: a landlord does not owe you a FREE place to live. You pay for it, and in return, they have certain obligations back -- clean, safe, etc. My mother instilled good values about this, and was NEVER the proverbial slumlord. She screened her tenants well, and she was usually able to provide good housing for nice families at a decent price. Of course, we had the occasional "let's take advantage of the 'rich' landlord" folks, but my father was usually the one who fell for their lines. One of my favorites was "the church lady" -- we called her that because she made sure we knew what an upright and christian woman she was (despite her two out of wedlock children, which we frankly didn't care about).

Well, this woman didn't have the money to move into the rental house. (It was very nice, by the way: two bedrooms 20x18 each, a living room the same size, and a reasonable sized kitchen/bathroom/laundry room, all on a shared acre lot in a good neighborhood.) Her church folk came up with the deposit, and she assured my parents that as soon as the paperwork was in, she would have the rent money, because she was collecting welfare for her two teenage daughters, as she had been doing since they were born. My father thought she was really nice, and against my mother's judgment, she and her daughters were allowed to move in with ONLY the security deposit.

We kids quickly learned she spent every night she wasn't in church at a local bar; she would come home with various people, and they would have drunken brawls in the back yard. (Her kids were very sad.) After five weeks of no rent (because everyone was waiting on the state paperwork), she and her kids suddenly disappeared for two weeks -- but left everything they owned behind. No word. It was kind of scary.

Turns out they had finally gotten the rent from the state (two months worth), and decided that a quick vacation to Florida Disney was in order. They stayed until the money ran out, then called someone for gas to get home. "The Lord" (meaning my folks) was going to provide (or forgive) the rent money. One more drunken brawl a day or two after they returned to the house, and the eviction papers were served. It took another month and a half to get her out, and she waited until the last minute to leave never having paid a dime in rent. Her church folks came to move her out before the Sheriff arrived, and I can still remember them singing hymns as they loudly prayed for the Lord to forgive us for our wickedness in removing her from the home the Lord had provided....

Meanwhile, since we had foolishly counted on her rent money to cover the bills incurred with the property, we ate a lot of fish sticks that summer because they were cheap. I hate fish sticks to this day. :)

With zero empathy or sympathy for the victims of this fucked up system.

Happy?

I am not happy

Wish this exploitation system would die.
Wish bitter people would quit telling others how to live and judging them when they can't cope or get hurt by the inhuman effeciency of a utilitarian exploitation system made for the rich and stacked against most people from the start..Sure sociopaths are a problem..alot of them are the Sucesses puritan work ethic social darwinists admire.

To be a sucess in some situations ,like in this inhuman system you have to lose your soul.
Some people prefer to keep thier soul,even if they look like losers to puritan taskmasters who cannot understand the awfuul delimma of losing ones soul for"success"creates.It is the fortunate and proud who have the most to learn about empathy sometimes.

You are a free market, take responsibility Democrat. The party needs many, many more of you.

I'm with Ida.

I know a 62 yr. old guy who has lived most of his life as a parasite on a trust fund which was recently cut off. What's he doing now? Sponging off an ex-girl friend, a friend of mine, who's silly enough to put him up while he uses her computer to search online dating services and to view porn! He drives her car, eat her food, etc. They don't have sex, in case you're wondering. TRUE story, I kid you not. I'd kick him out and I think every self-respecting gal here would too, but my friend feels sorry for him.