What do you think about people who say "Grace" conspicuously

in restaurants? I don't eat in their Church, shouldn't I get the same courtesy?

nose. They have as much right to say grace as I do not to say grace before my meals.

about the religious beliefs or disbeliefs of his neighbors: "It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg."

Let your neighbor's salvation be his bailiwick. Most of us, I'm sure, have enough to do cultivating our own few cubic feet of flesh.

can just get right down to eating.

Wouldn't that cause problems for those sitting in the car hop spot next to them?

Praise the lord and pass the fries !!! HONK! HONK! Yeeeehhhhhh GOD!

When ever I see some plasic looking Beverly Hills housewife I pray ..... Dear God, please don't let her get another lift. She's almost has a beard! Amen!

:spray:

:grr:

I hope the waitstaff pisses in his pepsi next time.

out of their Bibles.

....and instead of leaving a tip like everyone else she left one o'those pamphlets instead...it pissed me off...can't imagine how the poor girl felt after waitin' on us 12 people for a couple hours.

It was one similar to this... :eyes:

They can always leave the pamphlet with the tip, but they will get alot more attention if they leave a good tip with their propaganda.

...and was about to retire with FULL benefits...seems to me the propaganda must be something she has to grapple with herself after screwin' so many people for so many years. :shrug:

what a skinflint

or just bowing their heads and praying quietly?

Why don't they bother you?

:hide:

Who the hell lets them in resturants???

.....worry about the manners, they aren't showing manners by forcing you to listen to them.

Or.....

You could always quote, "On Judgment Day many will say Lord Lord and I will tell the Father in Heaven I never knew them." Of course say it loud enough for them to hear AFTER they have finished praying so there is no question that they hear every word.

.....a person waites until the other's have finished their extra loud prayers one will have plenty of time to chew and swallow any remaining food.:think:

That's when you blurt out .... "O' Mighty Satan ..... we thank you for the human sacrfice later .... but now Ol' Red Butt ... we're fucking HUNGRY!".

thread so far...

:rofl:

N/T

Ni?

I LOVE that part!

:rofl:

:rofl:

I think it is "Neek".....

Ni!

And for those who want their very own "Knight who says NI"






http://www.dailyllama.com/news/2003/llama183.html

they arent forcing you to participate, they are simply exercising their freedom of speech and religion.

On more than one occassion, I've "dined with" one of these fellows (sorry ladies for no equal time, it's always a guy) whose voice just CARRIES.

Sometimes I think that they must be hard of hearing or they must honestly have a problem modulating their voice.

I mean, I want to get up and ask them, "Do you know I can hear EVERY WORD YOU'RE SAYING CLEAR ACROSS THE ROOM? EVERY SINGLE WORD?"

I've been tempted at making conversation about exactly what they're talking about, hoping they will hear that I'm talking about, hoping they will then ask me if I'm "listening in" to their conversation...

My brother tells me of a flight he took where TWO such fellows sat right behind he and his wife. He said that he didn't get to talk to my sister in law for the whole flight...

It's not about their 'faith', it is about THEM, wanting to be perceived as pious.

There is a time, place and season for all things.

I don't think the OP was offended by the prayer as much as the decibel level. On a message board, we call such people "attention whores"...

them started telling snarky religious jokes at full volume???

Our rights are our rights only if they don't impinge on the rights of others.

If I belonged to a religion that ate babies on Easter, how long do you suppose that would last? And what if I interpreted some verses in the King James Version that supported my eating of babies?

To each his own I always say. And live and let live. But it goes both ways. I won't fornicate in their front yard and I don't want to hear someone two tables away praying loudly.

"Our rights are our rights only if they don't impinge on the rights of others."

How is someone saying grace impinge on your rights? What right would that be?

And I have the right not to have to hear it. I didn't walk into their church and say I didn't want to hear prayer. I was in a restaurant where I paid good money to eat my meal in peace.

I have a friend who is Jewish and she is horribly offended by anything Christian in a public place. She comes unglued if she hears a Christian rock tune on the radio. She is a Cantor and she takes her religion very seriously. I go out of my way to make her comfortable and she does the same for me... I don't want to hear her prayers either.

Homegirl needs to chill.

Thanks.

I believe you have the right not to practice or sponsor a religion, but not the right to be exempted from hearing prayers in a public (nongovernmental) forum. If such were the case just about any form of speech or protest could be halted merely upon grounds that it is the right of another not to hear what one has to say.

While these fundies are annoying and inconsiderate of others, they are well within their rights. It is also within your rights to get up and leave an establishment that permits this kind of thing letting the proprietors know why they have lost your business. Myself, I always make sure to say something they will find just as annoying as I find their attempts at forced conversion. I then smile and order a drink. Seems to work every time. :)

All I'm saying is there already a law against that... God's law. I'm merely trying to explain that although this person may think they are setting an example of Christianity, they are going against Jesus' teaching by doing this.

I'm more apt to leave... or to quote that scripture noted here.

When I tell people that I'm a progressive, they automatically think I'm anti-Christian, anti-troop, anti-responsibility, etc...... Just as most people think that all conservatives are anti-choice, anti-minority, anti-freedom of expression, etc.... It's become a game to so many people, one that separates us into our respective groups and lessens our respect for other ideas and opinions. Arguing that religious people don't have the right to say grace in restaurants is just one example of that.

When someone has an opinion, I listen to it, respectfully. When someone wants to pray, I'm pleased that we live in a society that allows that to occur whether they are Christian, Jew, Muslim, Hindi, or any other religion. Do some people take advantage of this and try to push their beliefs on those of who would rather not be bothered? Of course. However, given the choice of suppression or freedom of expression, I will always go with freedom. To me, that is being a true progressive.

Sorry about taking so long to respond. I had to fix dinner.

You have no such right. You have the right as we all do to ignore things that from time to time annoy us.

Meaning that people who pray in public are more concerned about convincing other people that they are pious than in truly communing with God.

I love Jesus--I just have alot of trouble with his fan club.

What's the big deal? Just tune them out, I say.

and are seated in the middle of the restaurant? :blush:

Empty IHOP, hung over, Sunday morn.

Suddenly halfway through my breakfast the early service of the local church starts piling in and they are all fired up. They must have had the semi annual "recruiting" sermon, because when they saw lonely 'ol me with my haggard "I drank straight whiskey til 4 am and then woke up with a gal I've never seen in my life" state, it took them until they ordered a pot of coffee to pounce.

After an irritating 20 minute conversation with a person that couldn't sell heroin in a rehab center I finally loudly told them, "Listen, it's not FATE that an Atheist was sitting here because if God had lead me here to be preached to by you, I thank God! I thank God for the path in which he chose. He got me completely fucked up and then laid by a beautiful stranger with big boobs to get me into this neighborhood. He definitely didn't pay my bill at the club last night. I guess I'm paying for his glorious graces now."

They told me I didn't have to be rude. Me. Sitting quietly and bothering no one was the "rude" one. I'll never get those people. Never.

:D

However, it works even better if you simply tell them that you don't talk religion with strangers in a restaurant. Just keep repeating that same line... Also quite useful in dealing with phone solicitors; I just tell them I don't buy things over the phone. What are they gonna say--'yes, you do, too'?

If was out all night a'drankin and a'screwin and felt a little like a freight train ran over my ass the next morning and a group of assholes starting in on ME .... I'd not only tell their off ... but I might throw up to add a more effective visual to get the point across.

I'd like to see that, just to see their faces. :D

I'd love to see those fundies have to actually talk with someone on a real level and see life as it actually is.

I go in for a cup o' joe and these people are standing around yak! yak! yak! ..... momma needs her coffee and they are in MY WAY!!!

It's not pretty.

Never get between anyone and their coffee. :)

But uthou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret, shall reward thee openly.
Matthew (ch. VI, v. 6)

now does it?

Prayer is between you and your God. A respectful, silent prayer with head bowed is sufficient. Otherwise, the praying person looks pious and that is just wrong.

Some Churches are very reserved in prayer

while others shout and sing and celebrate.

Can you say that either is "wrong"?

Hell most of the people that attack prayer on this board don't even seem to believe in it anyhow.

I don't know if you fit that or not, but surely, there is room to allow someone who wants to pray over their food to pray!

Now if they were shouting and saying "alleluia", loudly, or something, I'd probably wonder about them, but I don't think I'd be offended.

Someone who is offended by prayer, has something else they are struggling with than the prayer.

JMO

As a former devout Fundamentalist Christian, who did her share of whooping it up during church services, I can truly say I've seen it all. I was raised Methodist in my early years and Assembly of God between the ages of 12 and 17, and I doubt you could find a wider gap in Christian ideology. And I can say without doubt that both of those Christian sects teach that you should not put on airs and pray loudly so others can hear you. It is private between you and your Lord and anything else is pious, self-righteous and blasphemous.

It should be something someone does constantly, sometimes silently, but sometimes shared with your family or friends at dinner. So are you saying that only those who choose not to pray when they eat at restaurants should be allowed to pray?

I'm going to pray that this thread gets locked soon. (Well not really, as I don't believe in praying for something so specific and of no consequence to anyone really, but it sounded pseudo-funny in my head, others may judge differently)

Flying Spaghetti Monster that is growing in popularity!!

I was just searching for that verse!

Exercise of their constitutional rights. I might on a personal level find it a little annoying but I have to agree with the founders.

I'm studying to be a Rastafarian... I guess I can light a splif after a dinner out then:)

and can afford the legal bills if you get arrested to defend your religion's use of pot.

then you should go for it.

otherwise, put the strawman up, and let it alone

Ahhh, I love smell of after dinner prayers...

Nothing more, unless they're getting *really* loud and obnoxious.

to be able to openly practice their faith in public.

They are in a public place and if they want to pray before they eat, what the hell problem do you have with it?

seriously, why does it bother you?

And piety is frowned upon.

Christ taught them to pray.

I still think God frowns on attention whores. Self-righteousness and piety is sorely frowned upon throughout the Bible. Hard to make another spin on those verses.

prayer

to him/her, any prayer may be conspicuous.

I'd still like to know why it bothers the OP so much that someone would, God forbid, pray before they ate.

And every word could clearly be heard two tables away. Not much is left to the imagination.

The OP said nothing that would lead a person to believe it was prayer itself that was bothersome. We wouldn't be having this conversation if the person in question had simply bowed their head and said a quiet prayer.

Now how hard was he listening? I can listen and hear two tables away if I am quiet and listen for it.

That isn't evidence, that is simply his opinion, and your interpretation that he is correct.

Besides, if they were talking in a quiet restaurant, it wouldn't be hard to hear. If it was a noisy restaurant, then they would have had to be talking loudly.

I just don't get any "offense" by this.

God bless them! They took the time to pray.

I think I'll pray before dinner tonight too. I'm thankful to have food when there are so many in the world that don't have food.

The way the Lord taught. And he taught not to be pious and blasphemous. To each his/her own.

And what you view as pious, another views as respectful.

I admire someone who overcomes the stigma of praying at a restaurant at meal time.

I'm inspired enough, that I might just try it next time I eat out.

And not to pray loudly so others could hear you.

Go for it, if that's what you want to do. But that is the kind of action that the Bible teaches is prideful and self-righteous. It causes a person to be lukewarm and spewed from God's mouth.

But, hey, it's your eternity.

praying with others is not prohibited by the bible.

Besides, I'm not a literalist anyhow.

Thankfully my upbringing wasn't as confusing as yours must have been, with the AOG and the Methodists being the role models. What a dichotomy of approach to worship. I've attended an AOG Church and it is so much different than a Methodist Church.

I was raised a Presbyterian, and a pretty lax one at that if you can imagine.

Now, I belong to an even more liberal Church.

I'm not dogmatic about prayer, and my opinion is that if a person is praying anywhere, they are probably better off than if they aren't praying at all.

Peace

Because it makes you look holier-than-thou... bottom line.

However, I am not convinced that he was talking about people praying at dinner in a restaurant.

n/t

not of people praying at dinner

Judge not, lest ye be judged

if one is eating alone I'd expect them to pray silently. If they are saying grace for or with the group it would be said out loud. Doubt God would be frowning on that.

Out loud is one thing...loud enough to be heard at your own table, but to be heard across the room, two tables away, that is a bit much. The scripture is quite clear.

Across the room?

man, you must eat in restaurants that have a lot of space between tables, because across the room in my book would be 4 to 5 tables away, not 2

just wonderin'

in this sub thread anyhow.

I probably have gotten carried away with judging others in regards down thread to saying those who are offended might need mental health care.

I'm a mental health care professional, so I get paid for using judgment. The down side to that is that I am judgmental. It is a fault that I have, and perhaps you are right that I'm not listening to the Lord's teaching on this issue.

So, thanks for your comments.

please see Post #127, the one I was responding to.

so, forget about it!

I agree- there are some truly whacked responses in this thread!

Heh.

some of them are likely to be almost two tables away when we all get together.

I cannot believe thatsome are so close minded that there is offense taken at someone praying before a meal. Screw that whole freedom of religion thing. It must have been super painful and life impacting to have to overhear someone's words. The freaking horror.

was eating with uncomfortable. But that's just my opinion, and I still don't eat in their Church.

was eating with uncomfortable.

You are right, it is just your opinion.

And what does eating in their Church really have to do with anything?

I still don't understand your objection.

What is it really? You just don't like people praying? You don't like Church? You don't like Religion?

Bitching about praying in a restaurant has got to be a new one on me!

Cause if you arent that statement is so preposterous I dont even know where to begin. As if a restaurant somehow negates spirituality....

seeing people saying grace in restaurants. Secondly, this appeared to be a group of three women having lunch together in a restaurant that caters to office workers. Two of the three appeared embarrassed a bit but kind of forced to participate-I doubt those three will be getting together for lunch again anytime soon.

Could you be any more nosy? Why is it any concern of yours who will be lunching with whom in the future?

There are many things in this world worse than hearing people pray AT THEIR OWN TABLE at a restaurant.

I rely on the NSA to take pictures.:rofl: :thumbsup: Good one.

like that - whether it's loud cell phone conversations on the bus or loud praying.

Had the person in question quietly prayed, there would be no thread here.

Only Jesus is perfect. I'm a sinner, and no promises to turn a cheek every time.

If it's loud enough and prolonged enough to be a disturbance REGARDLESS OF THE CONTENT (i.e. if they were saying, "Lord, please give Congress the strength to impeach Bush" or even "there's a sale on socks at Target" and it's still annoying), then it's a problem.

Matthew 6:5-6: "And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men....when thou prayest, enter into thy closet and when thou has shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret...."


And enter into a discussion with your dining mate about the Publican and the Pharisee...


Speaking of Pharisees - does this description remind you of anyone today??

"The Pharisees was a religious and political party that had its origin in the second century before Christ. During a time when it seemed as if the whole world was embracing Greek culture, the Jewish group known as the Hasidim arose to combat this influence and to preserve Jewish ways. Eventually, one branch of the Hasidim broke off and formed their own community. Others however, who remained a part of regular Jewish life, formed the group that later became known as the Pharisees ("separate ones"). They so esteemed the "letter" of the law of Moses (more so than the "spirit" of the law), and so esteemed the oral traditions that were said to have sprung from the law, that they developed strict applications of the law for everyday life. The most famous Pharisee in all the Bible - although few people realize that that's what he once had been - is the Apostle Paul (Phil. 3:5). "

Interesting that many fundamentalists embrace the teachings of Paul, eh?

...yeah that's the "liberal" thing to do.

to be heard two tables away. I hardly call that a "minor" annoyance.

Hey - all I'm saying is have a discussion of the Scriptures. Who can fault that? ;)

Snakes, sweetie. I hear there were snakes involved.

Probably would be better to print it out on business cards and gently slip it on their table.

Interesting indeed. One of the many hypocrisies that keep me out of organized churches.

been screwed by.

One can say "Grace" without being conspicuous. 'Tis the show that brings up the red flags here.

Even in restaurants. We try to only say it loudly enough to hear just amongst us, but sometimes we are louder than we realize because of the noise in the room.

We say grace merely to give thanks for the food--that we have good food to eat and fill our bodies and (hopefully) our souls. We don't say grace to lord our faith over anyone else or to make others feel bad or weird or anything.

I have seen some say grace really loudly in restaurants, and while I'd like to give them the benefit of the doubt (maybe they just can't hear how loud they are), I wonder why they need to do that. Grace is between the person praying and God alone--it's not a spectator sport.

Because everyone needs to know that there are real christians in the room.
:eyes:

well ya know.

if it's a really long grace I feel sorry for the kids because I know they're sitting there thinking, "HURRY UP I'm hungry". At least that's what my sister and I used to think

a bunch of sanctimonious assholes, and I'm probably right about that.

However, if they insist on smoking cigars....

I've seen people quietly bow their heads before eating, but never so loud as to be able to hear them. I guess anything can happen.:shrug:

Then they are just plain wrong. Jesus taught to pray to oneself and not to make a boast of it, otherwise you are being blasphemous and your prayers will be ignored.

A simple, silent prayer with head bowed should suffice.

I hate it when I'm bringing an item/drink refill etc to a table and they're praying. I don't know whether to stand around til they finish, put the item on the table or what. Don't mind if it's short, but I hate when they make a novel out of it and I have to either wait around or come back later.

What the fuck are you talking about gossip. Gossip would be telling someone the details of what they said, smart ass. I was just adding a waitress viewpoint to the discussion and quandry of what to do.

my mistake. you used the word "hate" twice, about praying folk. Sounded like you hated it, and endured it more than once if it went on too long. So did you ever tell them of their offenses?

Yes, I endure praying folk. Yes, it puts me in a bit of an awkward position. I also endure rude people, no-tipping people, people who do not respond when you greet them. I also hate it when people can't just order normal shit without changing every aspect of the items ordered. People who's kids trash a 10 foot radius and they leave a dollar or nothing at all. People who think because you are a waitress that they are so much better than you (nevermind that I'm a published author, as well) If it quacks like a waitress, then by god that's all she is.

They have every right to pray if they want to. All I was saying was I never know what to do when they're praying because I never know how long its going to last. You know, waitress/prayer etiquette. If I hated the people, I'd slam the shit down and enjoy it when they jumped out of their skin in mid-prayer.

Right now I'm training a Romanian (I almost wrote Romulan) and 3 Thai summer student workers to wait tables in Branson, MO. In another month we'll get our Poland people back. I feel very protective of these young people. I try to be watchful of xenophobes. At least these people work. I get so sick of slackers.

Peace

are MUCH more ubiquitous, AND louder. Got anything to complain about other than prayers?

thinks he is president. Bothers me that he gets to be president.

I wish he were in some room hallucinating it and that the rest of us didn't have to be bothered with it.

judgment when I started this thread. I'm still hoping that this is all a bad dream and I will wake up.

bush as president I keep hoping it's a dream too and that the country will wake up.

If you mean this thread, well it will pass...and it's not killing anyone like the bush nightmare is. It's OK.

People who disagree with them might have to hear it! If you want your right to free speech, that has to include speech you don't like.

I don't like people being loud at restaurant tables, period. I don't give a flip what the "content" of the loud speech is. If they were too loud, then I would complain, but I would guess that their saying grace didn't last too long.

If a PARTY or GROUP are boisterous, young folks after a game or after church, I'm just mad 'cause they didn't invite me in on the celebration. Live & let live, and grab life when you can!

We all know there are "loud" restaurants and those that are pretty quiet, and when there is a table of loud idiots screaming like they are in a bar while the rest of the place are having normal conversations, I want to smack the shit out of them. Same for having screaming kids running around in a "not really a family place" restaurant. I'm pretty tolerant but I don't like rude, self-absorbed people who don't give a shit if they ruin your evening out because they want to scream and carry on like they are in their own fucking living room. Take it to an appropriate place, like a bar or something, if you just want be loud with your friends.

...a fair sized, VERY LOUD AND OBNOXIOUS family pretty much taking over the center of a pretty fancy (by my humble standards) restaurant --- telling a lot of LOUD ETHNIC JOKES.

My future wife and I were seated at the window, and kept rolling our eyes at each other ("can you BELIEVE that crowd..?")

Eventually a young well-to-do couple (she wore fur) came in, and the LOUD OBNOXIOUS FAMILY started making Polish jokes. Did I mention they were loud and obnoxious? Anyway, the young well-to-do wife-in-fur is (you guessed it) POLISH! So her husband goes to the table, and asks if they could cool it the Polish jokes, and so "Da" and Uncle Whatsis-name tell the young well-to-do husband to go f*ck himself...

It gets much worse from there.

Did I mention that the police were called?

So next thing you know there's this BALL OF FLAILING BODIES heading straight for the future missus and me, and we're SMOOSHED UP AGAINST THE WINDOW because the waiters and busboys couldn't break things up fast enough, and the young well-to-do couple left without eating, and the police wanted to have a word with "Da" and Uncle Whatsis-name, and MISSUS "DA" starts bitching BECAUSE "DA"'S STILL IN THE MIDDLE OF EATING HIS DINNER G*DDAMMIT she says!

We don't eat there any more.

Hey, I'll take a little grace over this nonsense anytime.

:)

I had an experience with a loud shithead yelling polish jokes, too, at a very expensive restaurant in NY. Fortunately, we were leaving, or things could've gotten ugly.

personally, i'd rather not be able to clearly hear conversations around my table.

What bugs me more is when they try to convert me. That shit just ain't cool.

But public prayer? Sure, why not?

found that two things generate a lot of responses at DU, nostalgia and any slight criticism of religion.

because they were PRAYING over a frying fish.

Freedom of religion does not include being conspicuous about it. As another poster here said, that makes it about THEM and not about GOD.

I'm always baffled by people who claim to have a PERSONAL relationship with Jesus, who then feel the need to display it in PUBLIC at every opportunity.

I wonder how this Grace-saying family would have reacted to a Muslim family at the next table kneeling down to face Mecca, publicly saying their prayers in a restaurant.

I guarantee you they would not be amused.

I must have missed that clause in the Bill of Rights.

Is your argument then, that they aren't practicing their religion correctly?

"I wonder how this Grace-saying family would have reacted to a Muslim family at the next table kneeling down to face Mecca, publicly saying their prayers in a restaurant. "

I wonder how the OP would have reacted.

... according to one's conscience, and to be free to practice it. It does not include bringing overt, loud, and disruptive observance of relgious rights and practices into public places. {You'll note that the original poster commented that this family could be heard two tables away).

There is nothing wrong with saying Grace, nor any before-meal prayer, in a restaurant. But when you feel the need to be loud and make a show of it, sorry, but that, IMHO, is inappropriate.

I live across the street from a Catholic Church. Every Ash Wednesday, they do the 'Stations of the Cross' in a parade around several blocks, stopping at various points to observe each 'station' separately.

The police block street traffic for about two hours to allow the service to be performed unimpeded - and although it is an inconvenience to those who can't reach their driveways for a few hours, no one has ever complained. In fact, the followers sing, pray aloud, and carry lighted candles, and it is a beautiful sight.

I have no problem with that, and neither do my neighbours.

However, if this same observance were performed in a public restaurant around the corner, I think we'd all have a very different opinion as to the appropriateness of that.

It's not just about praticing your religion freely - it's about taking others into consideration, whose religious beliefs may be different from your own.

If you're a Christian, the Bible CLEARLY admonishes one to 'pray away from others'. There haven't been any 'amendments' to Scripture, last time I checked.

Just so you know. Unless you currently live in the Soviet Union.

Or unless you eat in the break room at the police station.

... restaurants aren't public place. As far as I'm concerned, they are privately owned businesses and, as such, should be allowed to operate as the owner thereof deems fit.

However, when the local restaurant owners here wanted to allow smoking in their establishments, they were told they couldn't because they were deemed 'public places'.

As a smoker, I would be THRILLED to have that legal clarification made, once and for all.

I have friends over to smoke and coffee all the time. I smoke like a chimney in my house. I wonder when the government decides when its going to regulate me.

Yeah, I live in Toronto (where the no-smoking laws get more ridiculous by the day). My friends and I started doing dinners-at-home at each other's houses when all of this started, and we immediately realized it was cheaper, and more fun - you can 'stay' at the table as long as you want, listen to the music of your choice, play board games or cards afterwards with no one waiting for your space.

I do feel sorry for the business owners, though. We've had SO MANY bars and restuarants go under in the past two years. I have friends who own bars, and friends who are wait-staff, and they are REALLY hurting financially.

If the law were clarified to declare, once and for all, that bars and restaurants are privately-owned establishments, with the right to choose how they operate, there would be 'smoking' and 'non-smoking' places, and everyone would be content. That was actually the by-law here for three years, and it worked out beautifully for everyone. The public was truly pleased with having the choice, and no one lost business.

But, no, like all politicians, they couldn't leave well enough alone ...

Are they private clubs? They may be private businesses, but they are public places.

The government doesn't own them. It may regulate them, but it isn't public property.

Ownership is only so much hair splitting, imho.

They can't ticket me for public indecency? :shrug: no shirt, no shoes, no service. No pants no problem? :shrug:

" It does not include bringing overt, loud, and disruptive observance of relgious rights and practices into public places"

Really? Case law says otherwise.

"It's not just about praticing your religion freely - it's about taking others into consideration, whose religious beliefs may be different from your own."

I agree with that as a personal philosophy. But grace from all 2 tables (that could be less than 10 feet) is nothing more than an annoyance to those who choose to be annoyed.

"If you're a Christian, the Bible CLEARLY admonishes one to 'pray away from others'. There haven't been any 'amendments' to Scripture, last time I checked."

Quick name every bit of scripture dealing with prayer then explain how there are no contradictions in said scripture.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=709437&mesg_id=709753

This thread started based on whether one felt it was inappropriate to have to listen to someone else saying Grace (and the author of the thread pointedly said, in a follow-up post, that these people were being loud about it) in a restaurant or not. Had the post been premised on 'the people at the next table quietly bowed their heads and prayed together', my opinion would be drastically different.

I expressed my opinion; I do not feel it appropriate to bring attention to one's self in this manner in a restaurant.

I only brought up the Biblical reference because THAT'S WHAT IT SAYS. Don't blame me - I didn't write the thing, nor do I believe in it as a basis for my religious beliefs. But others DO, and they should follow it accordingly. And my PERSONAL OPINION as to what is appopriate behaviour in a restaurant is just that, my personal opinion. It is not based on how 'quickly' I can name that tune, in terms of what the Bible says or doesn't say.

I also LOVE well-behaved, polite children, while I LOATHE ill-tempered brats. How many child psychology studies need I cite before I am allowed to express my PERSONAL OPINION in that regard?

As for: "It does not include bringing overt, loud, and disruptive observance of relgious rights and practices into public places"

Really? Case law says otherwise.

The obvious response would be: "Quick! Name ALL of the case law that upholds the proposition that LOUD AND DISRUPTIVE observance of religious rights and practices is, by LAW, totally permissiable in restaurants?

I seriously doubt there is an X -v- Y case out there where a court upheld that LOUD AND DISRUPTIVE religious observance in a restaurant is the law of the land.

But please don't bother to respond - because I am out of here. A thread that started as a "What's your OPINION on this" discussion has quickly dissolved into an interpretation of the Constitution, the Bill of Rights, Freedom of Religion, et al.

That wasn't the concept behind the original discussion, and if it had been, I wouldn't have bothered posting on it.

I was merely expressing my PERSONAL OPINION on a topic -- and the last time I checked the Bill of Rights, that was still permissable.

You're the one that mis-stated what freedom of religion is.

"I only brought up the Biblical reference because THAT'S WHAT IT SAYS. Don't blame me - I didn't write the thing, nor do I believe in it as a basis for my religious beliefs. But others DO, and they should follow it accordingly. "

If you don't believe in it you can't tell them what to believe or what is correct to believe.

" last time I checked the Bill of Rights, that was still permissable."

You are of course correct, you only exposed yourself and made it obvious you are not worth talking to.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof".

I don't see anything about restaurants ejecting loud people.

Do you know how long it takes to say grace? If a restaurant kicked people out for that, they would have a lawsuit on their hands. These people weren't screaming, they were all of two tables away which is not exactly across the restaurant.

I was at a nice place tonight and could hear people 5 tables away. It's called talking or gabbing or yapping what have you.

Like I care. I am not out to eat for the peace and quiet, if so I will never find a place to eat. People laughing, on cells phones, etc and so on.

Of all the ills and evils in the world people are upset about a family praying??

further i would probably say amen. why would anyone be bothered. them saying grace has nothing to do with the path you chose in life. why are we becoming so terribly sensitive and demanding how fellowman must behave around us. makes us no better than the other side

:shrug:

..I mean afterall, "Who would Jesus bomb?"

People that pray publicly and loudly need to read their bible a little more carefully...

People are actually giving out instructions on how to pray for a religion they don't even believe in.

Yeah the Bible says alot of things and if you think they should follow that verse to the letter there are plenty of others you would wish they would ignore.

Virginia if Kerry won. Seriously, the idea that one cannot criticize any aspect of a person's religion is one of the things the right-wing fundies rely on.

"Seriously, the idea that one cannot criticize any aspect of a person's religion is one of the things the right-wing fundies rely on."

Should one's religion or lack there of be a criteria for judging that person's character?

..

..by your objection to their behaviour, why is it wrong to apply judgement on them? It's a lose/lose proposition. The fundies get to brag and show off about how religious they are (contrary to the bible) and if you don't object you are judged to be in agreement with them, and if you object you are automatically judged to be anti-religious lefty.

With these types of folks, ANYONE that doesn't believe they same way they do, are automatically jugded to be anti-religious.

The God I know doesn't need to hear me thank Him every time I shove food down my pie-hole at Chili's...

which was you objecting their behavior because their behavior was an affront to your behavior...then that starts to get into chicken and egg territory.

Are there phony religious people? Of course. But to me having issues with the public saying of grace tells more about the offended than those praying.

..the need to pray loudly, in public, tells more about the prayee than the offended...

"I'll vote for Kennedy even though he's Catholic, but I bet he'd never vote for me because I don't go to Church."

He was judging Kennedy on the fact that he was a Catholic and proposing actions based on what he thought a Catholic would act like.

(very) but how many avowed atheists are there in Congress?

...and make sure to eat a Big Mac during their service...Turnabout is fair play after all... :evilgrin:

..but I have been at a table as part of a group where someone has pulled the grace thing and i just sat there rolling my eyes..

Loud ones! Big thunder clappers. Shakes the room. Stank? Of don't get me started.

And I absolutely could not care less.

I think it's called the right to free speech, or freedom of religion... something we used to have in the United States, anyway, although I can't remember the specifics....

If people want to pray before eating, I don't care. Even if I can hear them, so long as it isn't interrupting my enjoyment, I never cared. I personally don't say grace, but even when I'm at the table with people who do, I just sit quietly and meditate for a moment.

I personally think that prayer is private. If I choose to pray, no one around me knows it. I keep it to myself- private, where religion belongs, not in everyone's face. Now, when I'm with my fundie in-law freaks who think Catholics are burning in hell, I make the Sign of the Cross just to piss them off (I'm Catholic. It's one perk I can enjoy through all that guilt!

But to pray so loudly as to interrupt others. That isn't Godly or holy- that's just plain rude. Maybe just let it go. There are worse things to get pissed about- unless they try and "convert" you. Then talk loud to drown them out. Talk all about your lesbian affair and how you just looooove working for Planned Parenthood!


I'm such a little devil, aren't I?






Edited for embarrassing punctuation.

because my first thought is that whoever is saying grace out loud in public wants to make a show of how pious they are. It's been my experience that shoe who are big on public form, often are short on the actual substance.

I grew up in a family that says grace before dinner. We still do when we are all together. But when we go out to eat a meal, we don't. If anyone in the group wants to say grace, they do so silently and without any fanfare.

Religion should be personal and private. I don't really feel like being made to intrude on someone's private moment.

Matthew 6:5-6: "And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men....when thou prayest, enter into thy closet and when thou has shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret...."

More:
http://www.religioustolerance.org/prayer.htm

1 Thes 5,17: Pray without ceasing.
1 Timothy 2:8 I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.

:sarcasm:

...you can't cite one scripture and call it the final word on prayer.

AND that's not a fair argument, logically.

Any "fact" in "the" bible has a probability of being inerrant / factual at any particular time.

Observing a biblical passage causes it to collapse to a quantum "factualness" state.

You can not know both the exact "factualness" of a biblical passage and the "importance" of it at the same time-- observing one changes the other.

Let's start with a "thought experiment" called "Schrodinger's Bible."

being a techie myself I can't resist making fun out of scientists, especially the po-faced ones who take themselves far too seriously.

"The same physical quantitiy may have different values if it is measured by observers who are moving with respect to each other. The velocity of a train has one value if measured by an observer on the ground, a different value if measured from a speeding car, and the value zero if measured by an observer sitting in the train itself. None of these values has any fundamental advantage over any other; each is equally "correct" from the point of view of the observer making the measurement." ("Physics" by Halliday & Resnick, page 3, para. 5)

Obviously, the assumption is erroneous, contradictory on several points.
1) On curves, the train , the riders would feel the acceleration and "zero" is not the "speed".
The riders would sink into the seat on curves & that is motion and speed.
2) "None of these values has any fundamental advantage over any other", the observers not on the train would know that the train was moving with substantial speed, and potential energy very high.
3) "Each is equally "correct"", reiterates that the trajectory is important to those of us in the real world, but from these authors(physicists) they value the myopic viewpoint of the rider equally with those who see the relative motion of the train, and see the tracks and know the path.

Sorry for the delay, and it's just 5 minute, random review of a text that I haven't read for months.
This passage last read by me in the 70's. Point is, SCIENCE is REPLEAT with non-science, and we try to make sense of the world as best we can.
BTW, Dr. Mitiokoco (spelling) reported a NEW PLANET in our solar system!! How & The name of God can that be!!?? We spent TRILLIONS of $$, and this year "discover" that a tenth planet exists.
The science community now believes in multiple parallel universes, string theory!! Is God possibly in a different realm, can that even be possible?? Not until this year, according to laws of science.
edit spelling & url: Dr. Mitio Kako: www.mkako.org

I don't think scientists believe in theories myself. I know quite a few that believe in God but science isn't an act of faith, it's more of a system with continuous feedback.

edited for typos

Should work like a charm...

Same way I feel watching young kids visit Santa.

to produce tangible rewards.

This is nothing but a bash the "ignorant" Christians for their beliefs and practices.

Comparing Christianity to Santa Claus is really what is offensive.

the difference between faith and tangible personal property.

Nobody claims that Santa was born of a virgin or rose from the dead.

my goodness

if he wasn't born of a virgin or risen from the dead, it would make no difference to me.

My spirituality is guided by the teachings of the Christ.

How's Santa?

We don't ever need it for things people do in private.

any form of proselytization is disrespectful, and in public it is not asking too much for people to simply say their prayers quietly ...

hassle her toddler (maybe a year to a year-and-a-half old) to say grace. It kind of made me a little queasy, more just wondering about how the kid was being raised in general. On the other hand, my mother's Unitarian minister makes his puppy say grace before meals, and he seems to be a pretty nice guy.

I don't really care for ostentatious displays of religiosity, but to each his own, I guess.

...you sneeze and someone says "Bless you!"?

your health." That would.

"did that come out of you?"

Do you realize that is based on a Pagan belief?

in response to "how are you?" "I'm blessed!"

Just me, but it seems like they're just waiting for the "Rapture" (or is that Raptor?).