how can a war go on for thousands of years?

i'm referring to the seemingly eternal battles and wars going on in the middle east since before christ, that are still going on today, shi-ites, sunnis, etc, what drives these never ending slaughters as if i didn't know?

you'd think that eventually they'd give up, make peace, surrender, or whatever after a few hundred years, but the clashes and murders just go on forever back into history. one almost gets the impression that they enjoy this way of life, because they show no signs of changing it.

i'm sure i'm making wild generalizations, but it sure seems like certain corners of the world are cursed by an invisible, dark force that's always been there and always will be. maybe this is what hell really is.

the english couldn't help afghanistan, nor the russians, nor can we in iraq, the ancient curse is just too powerful, there apparently will always be strife and war in these awful places.

and really should go read up on the history of Islam and these regions.

Check out the history of the crusades, the mongol invasion, the ottoman empire, and the persians,hellenes, and romans of classical times.

Sure, there have been long term conflicts, but the folks in the middle east are not alone in this. A brief history of Kosovo, or Riga will go a long way to putting another perspective on this subject.

In closing, I leave you with a quote from Terry Pratchett--

"Even the Scots took time out from fighting their ancient enemies, the Scots."

...without directing him/her to UNBIASED sources of historical information?

I've never tackled a subject more stacked with author bias and hidden agenda than I have the I/P conflict.

and he's a smart guy.

Here he's got it wrong, and there are so many good sources on the history of the region...

But let's start at the very beginning.

These are not the most academically complete works on the subject, but are readable, and that counts when you are trying to get a handle on 1000 years of history and multiple cultures.

Terry Jones -- The Crusades (Why they hate us)
T. Lawrence -- The Seven Pillars of Wisdom (Saud, Iraq, colonialism in the Middle East)
Goodwin, Jason -- Lords of the Horizon (ottoman empire)
Mango, Andrew --Ataturk : The Biography of the founder of Modern Turkey (Secular Middle East)

Americans, etc. who were never there to help but exploit natural resources. Ancient religious enemies are all over the world. The US is only 300 years old or so. Many of these clashes were over injustices of one group over another that was aided by on of the major powers.

that "Westerners" have been mightily stirring the pot there for... what... about 900 years now? Have we all just been trying to "help?" And these heathens are too stupid to accept our benevolent direction? I think I know the moniker your invisible, dark force goes by. It's the one thread connecting all the strife in this region. We in the West call it "religion."

--Phillip K. Dick

intermittantly.

That whole area was sort of "borderless" for a long time, and people moved from area to are depending on the seasons, so property was not the issue it became after the westerners arrived and carved it up with lines drawn on paper.

Grudges last a long time in societies without a lot of education. Word of mouth "historical stories" tend to be very one-sided. ..and when you are desperately poor, it's easy to find some other group to blame your poverty on..

also when religion rears its ugly head, and becomes part of an occupation, things never stay peaceful for long..:(

First you have three local Powers, Egypt, Asia Minor (Today's Turkey) and Persia (Now Iran and Iraq). These are the three big powers, but most of the time each is to weak to conquer the other two, thus you see the power of each ebb and flow.

In between these powers you have various local tribes that play each of the super powers against each other. Some time they back Egypt, sometime Persia and sometime Asia Minor.

Another geographical problem is that the head waters of the Euphrates and Tigris rivers basically flow from the border/mountain area into traditional Persian territory. These same areas as flow to the Mediterranean Sea (and the Mountain are a barrier between each). Thus if you are Egypt or Asia Minor and try to take Palestine, you will be pulled over the Mountains into the Euphrates and Tigris River Valley and come into conflict with Persia. At the Same time Persia wants to protect those headwaters and thus dragged into the Mountains and then down the other side to the Mediterranean. The problem is the mountains stretches out your supply lines so as you advance you become weaker and the other two powers gets stronger. Egypt does not trust the other two powers in Palestine for except for 2 invasions (One from Libya and the other from the Sudan, both in Ancient times) invasions of Egypt have come from Palestine or the Sea (and the sea invasions rare compared to Palestine). Thus Egypt view anyone in Palestine as hostile to Egypt. At the same time it is hard for Egypt to maintain an Army in Palestine via Sinai (it is all desert). Asia Minor heartland is around Ankara (and more to Istanbul than Syria), when it is drawn to the area its supply lines quickly become over extended do to the distance from the Bosporus. Persia problem is getting and supply an army over Those mountain.

As you can see you have a ebb and flow between these three groups with Asia Minor occasionally holding baghdad and Cairo (Alexander the Great, Emperor Trajan and the Ottoman Turks) but these are rare and quickly ends (Alexander's Empire broke up at his death, Trajan's successor abandon what is now Iraq and the Turks barely held onto Iraq doing its height.

Furthermore the above is complicated by Asia Minor's connections with Europe and Russia. Ever so often these connections draw Asia Minor Power from the Middle east leaving it to Persia and Egypt to fight over. Persia every so often has other concerns, the former Soviet Moslem Republics for one, the other being the Indus valley (Next door in present day Pakistan). Egypt every so often has internal problems or an invasion from the sea that causes it to pull back. In fact the story of Revelations and the Book of Daniel may be less of the Future than of the past (i.e. story of what happens when Russia attacks the Middle East and forces Asia Minor out of the Middle East to defend Asia Minor).

I can go into more details, but that is the MAIN problem of the Middle East, it is a border area between three roughly equal super powers. In reality none of the Three really want to be in the Middle east, but can not leave the Middle east to the other two. Thus the ebb and flow as one country strengthens and other weakens (Or other commitments overcome the need to be in the Middle East). This is further complicated when the other problem is resolved and they are forced to get back in the Middle east.

Thus the Middle East is a mess, and always has been and probably always will be.

I really short changed Egypt in the equation, and know no good easy read on the subject.

Other aspects that could be covered are the Druze, the Falangists, and the Hezbullah in Lebanon, the Armenians and Kurds as a paradigm for the Palestinian debacle, and the rise of Wahabbism as a social reform movement co-opted by the ruling elites.

To understand Palestine you must understand four concepts:
1. The Continental divide between the Mediterranean and the Persian Gulf,
2. Handling both the local and other Super-Powers (my Previous thread)
3. Balancing the trade Routes coming from the Sea and going to Present day Iraq.
4. Controlling the three major north-south Highways and the Routes east from Palestine.

The first key is the Continental divide between the Mediterranean and the Persian Gulf. This is the area where you have tribe after tribe. These have survived for centuries morphing over time but basically staying the same. Trade routes are the most important factor (For example The President of Syria is a Druse, whose tribe has had extensive trade connections with the Christian Falange of Lebanon, in fact as the Christians lost the Lebanese Civil war, the President Of Syria sent in his army to support the Falange against the Moslem who was winning the war). Another example was the Crusades, Damascus was an independent Moslem city allied for most of the Crusades with the Crusaders (Except when Sadalin managed to unite what is now Egypt and Upper Iraq against the Crusaders, then allied themselves with Saladin till Saladin's empire collapsed at his death, then reverted to allied with the Crusaders). Another example from the Crusades is the protection of the Assassins (a Shiite Radical religious group) by the Templers.

All of the above was derived from the trade routes. Occasionally the various tribes would unite against a common enemy, for example the Israeli King Ahab of the Bible lead one such attack against the Assyrians (While King Arab is in the Bible this battle is NOT, but we know it from Assyrian Text of the Battle). Another example is when the Mumaluks decided to do a preemptive attack on the Mongols stationed in Syria. The various Crusaders in the area supported the attack, giving his troops free passage and supplies to do the attack. The night before the attack the Crusaders even hosted a dinner for the Mumaluks (Officially no Crusaders participated in the battle for no non-Moslem could serve in a Moslem army, but we know that Christians had served in the Caliphs army in previous centuries, passing themselves as "Moslems" for the duration of the Service, thus it is possible, and probably probable, that the Crusaders served with the Mumaluks). Now this unity was fleeting, for the Mamaluks were afraid that the Crusaders could do for the Mongols what the Crusaders had done for the Mamaluks, thus within years of the battle over the Mongols, the Mamaluks destroyed the last of the Crusading Cities, destroying the cities AND THEIR PORT facilities (of these more later) do to fear of the Mongols. This made the whole area even more of a backwater than it had been before, for previously it had been a hub of commence, afterwords an isolated backwater which the Mamaluks kept it the Mamaluks were defeated by Napoleon.

Thus the tribes of the Divide thus have united against common enemies and one of the ways to control the area is to make sure you have allies among the local tribes. Each valley is controlled by another tribe. Now the Coastal area is different, unlike the Divide the Coastal Area has to fear attacks from the sea AND THE THREE SUPER POWER ONLY WANT THE COASTAL ROAD NOT THE MOUNTAINS. For example when Napoleon marched from Egypt to Syria during his Egyptian Campaign one of his Generals mentioned about take Jerusalem, he said NO, it would be to dangerous and he did not need Jerusalem to march from Egypt to Syria, he only needed to protect himself from attacks from the direction of Jerusalem and the Judean Mountains (i.e. the West Bank). The Ancient Philistines lived around what is now the Gaza Strip and a little further north, the Ancient Phoenicians lived is what is now Beirut Lebanon and a little further south. The Ancient Israelis Controlled the Area between those two groups. The Philistines and Phoenicians were Seafarers the ancient Israelis were not. Thus both the Philistines and Phoenicians would trade all over the Mediterranean but for local support looked to the Strongest inland tribe. In Biblical times that tended to be Israel. This was a two way street, the Philistines and Phoenicians controlled the sea routes, the Ancient Israelis Controlled the area between the Coast and the Mountains (Thus when Solomon tried to open a Red Sea port, the sailors for the boats all where Phoenicians). When the Assyrians destroyed the Philistines the Jews moved in so by the time of the Roman Empire Judea included not only the Judean Mountains and Central Modern Israeli but also the Gaza Strip (With the Phoenicians holding on to their sea trade till Alexander the Great took Tyre, and even then the Phoenicians continued to control the sea trade till Carthage lost the last Phoenicians Trade colonies during the Second Punic War). From the time of Alexander the sea trade from Palestine was either in Greek hands or Jewish hands with the Greeks expanding their grip of the sea trade during the time of the Roman Empire. Thus during the time of Christ you have Jewish Cities and Greek Cities throughout what is now Israel, with the Greek Cities being tied in with the Sea trade replacing the Philistines and Phoenicians. This continued through the Roman period and into the time of the Crusades when the Italians replaced the Greeks in the Eastern Mediterranean (You had some Arab sea traders but minor compared to the Greeks and then the Italians). The Arab Conquest of the 7th Century does NOT seem to have changed these routes much, the Arabs just ruling as a small elite over the area till the Arab Empire broke up in the 9th Century. The Turks took the place of the Arab, but the area we are discussing were always a border area between the Mountains and the Sea.

A third factor is that there are only three major North South Roads in Palestine. If you want to go from Syria to Egypt (the the Reverse) you have to take one of these three routes. The preferred route is the Coast highway and this is the route taken by Alexander and Napoleon (and most other Invaders). The problem is the two interior routes are shorter for the natives (Through NOT for the Invaders) and thus the natives can pick and choose where to fight anyone invading along the Coast Highway. The main interior route is the King's Highway and its extension for Hebron to Jerusalem to Meggido (Also called, Armageddon, Legio, Lejjun, el-Lejjun, Harmagedon, Isar-Megiddo, Megiddon, tel Megiddo, tel el-Mutesellium and most recently el-Lejjun). If you have these three cities AND the Judean mountains in between, you can gather a local army and move it to intercept anyone moving along the Coastal Highway (Generally at Megiddo, which is way it is named at the place of the last battle in the Bible, is has been one of the most Fought over Cities in History for more on Megiddo see: http://www.ancientroute.com/cities/Megiddo.htm).

Given this interior lines to control Palestine you have to Control these interior lines and thus the Judean Mountains, Hebron and Jerusalem (but if you just passing through you do not, but expect to fight someone unless their are paid off but even then you need Meggiddo). Control of these three areas was the key to the following:
1. Ancient Kingdom of King David and King Solomon,
2. the subsequent rule by an alliance between the Northern kingdom of Israel and the Kingdom of Judea,
3. with the destruction of the Northern Kingdom, the subsequent power of Judea tell it was destroyed by the Babylonians,
4. the key to the Independent Judea Kingdom of the Maccabees and Herod's the Great Kingdom and
5. the key to the Crusading Kingdoms of the Crusades (Through by the Crusades Meggiddo was rarely if ever fortified its last name El-lejjun is derived from the latin for Legion, the Sixth Roman Legion was stationed there after the Jewish Revolt of 70 AD, Meggiddo abandonment after the Arab Invasion is the product of the simple fact that to hold Meggido you have to keep a professional army in Meggido, you have to pay people to be there, in pre-Jewish times the area just ransomed the Caravans going on the King's Highway, in Ancient Israeli, Solomon kept his Northern Army at Meggiddo, In Roman Time the Roman Legion. The problem is after the Arab Conquest and Collapse Palestine ended up broken up in a series of Small kingdoms NONE OF THEM RICH ENOUGH TO KEEP TROOPS IN MEGGIDDO, so it stayed abandoned, The Crusaders once they took Palestine wanted to live on their new lands NOT live as professional Soldiers, and the same with the Moslems when the Mamaluks took over, thus unmanned to this day for even Modern Israel does not have the PROFESSIONAL troops to man Meggiddo).

Thus the Ancient Israelis would gather their forces and fight anyone who took the Coast Highway UNLESS PAID OFF or were afraid of an attack themselves (For example when the Assyrians destroyed the Philistines, the Israelis stood aside least the Assyrians switched their attack to Judea proper). By the time of Alexander the Israelis had been a Subject people for 200 years stayed in their Cities and Mountains rather than try to stop Alexander's Army. When Alexander's successors tried to suppress them the Jews revolted and used the Assets of the Judean Mountains to fight a guerrilla war against those Greeks (The revolt of the Maccabees is in the Catholic but not Jewish or Protestant Bibles).

One of the keys to having a successful Country in Palestine has been to control all three of these roads (The others are appeasing the various local tribes in the Mountains, playing any super powers against each other AND maintaining contact with port cities of Beirut, Tyre and now Tel Avie). These four things are the main reason for the Fighting between Israel and the Palestinians, but most importantly BOTH WHAT TO CONTROL THESE ROADS AND THUS PALESTINE. Furthermore the Israelis view the Judean Mountains as a potential strategic retreat in case they are ever overrun by the surrounding Arabs and thus want to control those mountains (Which means control the West Bank).


More on the Coastal road (Also called the Way the Sea):
http://www.ancientroute.com/WayofSea.htm

More on the King's highway:
http://www.ancientroute.com/HeadrFtr/tkingshwy.htm

Topo map of Palestine:
http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Maps/Story584.html

Road map of Palestine (Note only two roads to Hebron, than you see the three roads I Mentioned):
http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Maps/Story575.html

for starting this thread.
It is important.

I recommend you go see Munich, and Syriana right off the bat, they are confusing in all the right ways.

happening all over the world at any one time. The media only focuses on one or two at a time. There are lots of wars going on in Africa (and other parts of Asia), for instance, that we never hear about.

But also, just look at Europe for instance, they had two massive wars in the last century which killed off tens of millions of people and before that there had been constant warfare there for all of known history.

So, nowhere has a monopoly of violence.

But, in the case of Israel/Palestine, if you look at a map it's actually a tiny place, only a small part of the "Middle-East" (i.e. Arabian Gulf). I guess the problem there is that three major religions sprung up on the same patch of desert and God told each one different things so they can never agree.

and sometimes, other issues over-ride those sectarian ones.

Neither the English, the Russians, or us were in Afghanistan to "help."