Get this woman off Air America Radio (Fran Leibowitz)

Fran Leibowitz is a nasty woman, and the worst guest I've heard on Franken's program. I wonder how Al would have dealt with her comment that "Americans love war, unless they're losing." What a cynic. Sam Seder is being way too laid back with her. Her comments are ugly old-fashioned elitist, from the segment of the progressive intelligentsia that talks in grossly generalized terms of "the people" yet one cannot believe they have ever deigned to walk amongst them. I will be glad when her time is spent. I'm not a fan of Sam Sedar either, but he is intelligent and his commentary is often worth hearing, and mulling over. Leibowitz is pathetic. An old hack without an idea to call her own.

Hurry back, Al! Your show without you is lame!

And I love Sam! Didn't hear the show though....seriously there are HUGE parts of this country (red states) that never met an American military intervention they didn't LUV. Greneda? Woot woot! Panama? KICK ASS! I see this attitude over at FR, they would still be cheering Vietnam from their armchairs of course, if we were there 20 years and lost a million people for nothing.

Edited for spelling.

in a kiln explosion.

edited for clarity

I heard the piece and didn't think it was that bad. She has a point, and she did make it clear that she wasn't talking about all Americans, she was generalizing. She also said that if there were a draft alot more people would be alot more vocal about ending the war.

Fran Leibowitz is one of the best commentators out there. She's 100% correct.

Maybe another website would be better for you. Enjoy your stay.

Surely you can come up with something better than that... it's so 2000...

I had my towels monogrammed.;)

The best part of that? the people calling ME "elitist" ALWAYS make about three times (or more) more than me -- literally. It cracks me up.

NOT.

I'm going to do the same.

:eyes:

For the record, $3/day for a latte is not within my elitist budget!

My son grew up here and when he started drinking coffee, he drank the "whatever-is-on-sale" coffee I buy, but now that he's a "man of means" he drinks that Starbucks crap.. I always just say " Buy some swiss Miss cocoa mix and add some instant coffee crystals"..

What America do you live in?

plus, they are always starting wars with countries they have huge advantages over: Grenada, Iraq.

post-Vietnam is to only pick countries that can't fight back. They thought Iraq would be like that (as opposed to North Korea, which actually has a nuclear and strong conventional deterrent), but they failed to take into account the fact that, according to Seymour Hersh at least, Saddam Hussein decided not to fight a conventional war but, rather, a guerilla war and instructed his general staff and intelligence apparat to switch to a guerilla strategy in Jan, 2002 (more than a year before we invaded).

such generalizations are challenged for the many exceptions that exist, so many that the generalizations themselves are called into question, and dismissed. I don't see many people on this site that love war, I don't talk to many people during my days that love war, I see lots of anti-war opposition going on right now, going on even when the drive to invade Iraq was at its most media-driven fiercest. Hundreds of thousands of people marched then in this country, and continue to march against the war.

More than that, there are people one would not call progressive, or even political, who are against war. It is *not* endemic to the American population. Leibowitz's sneering remarks are the kind that speak blindly from on high, and frankly are as deplorable as any where a whole population is summed in a cynical phrase. And just because I found it objectionable does not mean I am an idiot or a conservative or one who should find another site, as someone suggested in a reply to my original post.

As for Sam Sedar, he's not my cup of tea. He's smart, and as I said before, I have found his commentary this week worth listening to. That said, I don't like his show very much, him and Garafalo are to my ears humor-less and screeching. I like Franken a lot because he is smart and funny, there is a kindness running through his voice, an empathy that belies politics or partisanship. I like Randi Rhodes because I don't know of another more bluntly honest, fiercely intelligent, or roaringly funny radio show host. These two are like company during my working day, like the kind of people I'd like to trade thoughts with. So I listen to them. Those that like the Majority Report or whatever else is on AAR are welcome to them.

PS--'elitist' is not an RNC code word in my usage...it has been around a long, long time...it denotes a certain kind of ivy tower intellectualism that alleges to be populist and democratic in tone but in truth has little to do with the lives and realities of but only a small portion of the general population...

losing.

There's a pattern here, and it's reflected in the polls

how many of our fellow citizens were wetting themselves with excitement at the "Mission Accomplished" pukefest. A lot of people were enamored of this war back when it was still just a wee cakewalk. And if it the war had gone as swimmingly as predicted by its many proponents, most of our fellow citizens wouldn't give a fig about the false premise upon which it was sold to them.

against anyone who doesn't "toe the line."

determine the language, how it's used and what it means? and given the context of my comments, and explanation of how i was using it, being neither a right wing drone nor a left wing sheep, but bearing my own brain best i can, how does this answer what i have to say? i don't watch Fox News, but i damned well don't worship ever utterance from Buzzflash or Alternet or CommonDreams...it's one thing for someone to say to me they like sam sedar or leibowitz, or even that they don't like franken or rhodes, but to allege to understand my diction and tease from it code about what tv networks i like is just plain creepy and wrong...

i am really surprised at how many comments here chortle how much "americans love war," when so often we discuss here the distortions of the mainstream media, lying about how much support bush really has...the comments i have read this morning indicate a lot of hatred, not just anger, but hatred for one's fellow men and women...isn't that just what the cabal wants, to keep people divided and conquered? isn't that what happened during Viet Nam? old against young, black against white...

those in power, whether it be political, economic, or cultural have way more in common with each other than with people who do not bear such power...why is that most Democrats in the Congress are doing so little about the Bush crimes? they have a stake in things...they rule from on high...the labels at that level are meaningless versus the actions they take or do not take to defend the whole of the population...

" am really surprised at how many comments here chortle how much "americans love war," when so often we discuss here the distortions of the mainstream media, lying about how much support bush really has...the comments i have read this morning indicate a lot of hatred, not just anger, but hatred for one's fellow men and women...isn't that just what the cabal wants, to keep people divided and conquered? isn't that what happened during Viet Nam? old against young, black against white..."

Guess what -- I AM angry at the jackasses who didn't just go along with this sham of a war sadly and reluctantly, but rather whilst gleefully sporting war woodies, burning Dixie Chick CDs and questioning the patriotism of anyone who didn't do likewise. The ones who actually looked forward to it because this war was going to be as fun and exciting as a Mountain Dew commercial. There were an awful lot of them, and guess what else? Even if we, or Fran L., never spoke a word of criticism against them, they aren't going to join forces with us in the fight against the rightwing authoritarian cult that is the modern Republican party. If you really believe otherwise then congratulations, your ivory tower is a lot taller than mine.

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You've just begun posting, but obviously you're been around awhile. Did you notice that people here don't agree with your rosy assessment of the American people? And one more thing...When you post flamebait, expect to be flamed. You have to know how to take it as well as dish it out.

".and if you believe that the majority of the people in this country truly are as idiotic as you and others paint them to be"

Criticism of those in our midst who were orgasmically excited at the prospect of kicking Arab ass, is not the equivalent of insulting the majority of people in this country by calling them idiotic. I happen to believe Americans are far less idiotic than Bushco does. They would not have supported this war if they'd realized the WMD excuse was a lie. But it's undeniable there's a heapin' helping of the kind for whom such details would not have mattered. Maybe you are just being overly sensitive in not wanting to see them criticized.

Created the language. When you hear "liberal elitist/ivory tower, etc., 99% of the time it is framed in a RW way. That's just the way it is. Just like, most of the time, when you hear "homosexual," you're not talking to a queer-friendly person.

No one is chortling that Americans love war -- we are stating it as a fact. You seem to be reading into things, not us.

Oh, guess what? I have a new person to add to my Ignore list, because I get enough of liberals being called elitist In the RW media and the MSM... I do NOT have to listen to it on DU.

Have fun writing your posts.

"No one is chortling that Americans love war -- we are stating it as a fact. You seem to be reading into things, not us."

It is *not* a fact, it is an assertion. The ideals of this country regard democracy, peace, and tolerance. That the Bush cabal has tried to turn it to a warring Empire does not negate those ideals. There are too many Americans who even on 9/12/01 did not advocate violence, and they do not maintain it now. I am talking about real, actual people, not 'the people,' I'm not talking about "Joe Six-pak" or any of those other patronizing names politicos often use. To generalize about people in this country is as bad as the idiots who talk about "ragheads" in Middle Eastern nations.

This post was not intended as "flamebait," but an honest criticism of what I was hearing on Air America. It isn't my intent to convince anyone of my opinion; I assume people come to their own by whatever means they do. But what I heard this morning was cheap opining masquerading as thoughtful discussion.

As for the person who put me on ignore, it is interesting that someone who comes to a site that allegedly stands for free speech and tolerance of a wide array of views, as this one does most of the time, is deciding to censor an opinion he or she does not like.

I don't have to play the "progressiver-than-thou" games with anyone here. I know my principles and views are sound for me. I also know they are mine, not others'. I'd like to think that my views would get respect here, not attack. But attack, so be it.

I will not define, ever, a whole populace by a few patronizing adjectives, when I know from the life I've lived that the validity of the individual is ever paramount and, in dark times like these, one of the best hopes for better days.

:hi:

I think you're making an important point (although I didn't hear the interview). Of course most people don't love war and I'm not sure what purpose it might serve, at a time when most Americans finally oppose this particular war, to insult and possibly alienate people who are finally coming around. (Although I didn't hear this interview, I've heard others with her, and although I think she's hilarious and I especially love her writing, she doesn't exactly come across as the warm and fuzzy type and I can imagine lots of listeners bristling at what she has to say and, particularly, at the way she says it.)

One cynical interviewee isn't going to turn anybody against Air America, though, IMHO.

I'm glad you're here! Free and open exchange of ideas--well, that plus brains and free will--is one of the things that makes us different from the Free Republic echo chamber.

i love the exchange of ideas here...i'm not wild about the personal flames, but that's the deal with the 'net sometimes...people come across distorted a bit from what they are...i just want progressives to spend as much time pointing to better days and ways to them as they do pointing out the troubles we're all in...we've got to show what we have to offer, more than righteous kvetching...we have good ideas, creative paths around impediments, hope for anyone willing to listen, and tolerance for differences...the better we do this, the more we convince, person by person, the society as a whole to believe again in its own deeply-rooted ideals...

and I'll definitely have to back Sammy. He and Malloy are the best on Air America. I :loveya: Sam Sedar! Smart & funny: winning combination.

"in my opinion"? "Americans love war, unless they're losing." I don't love war, win or lose. :argh:

about overall polls.

nasty when it is the truth about the American people?

:bounce:

She makes a valid point, but I haven't heard the context.

My only quibble would be that american administrations love war. We certainly seem to end up in a lot of them.

The American people love to be patriotic. They just get lied to into thinking wars are patriotic.

Al can stay on his book tour indefinitely as far as I'm concerned. Like what she had to say about how people used to look down on people who were in debt. Now credit card debt is the norm and living within your means is a rare existence.

The Fundies who forgot about that one little commandment; Repub bullies; the wealthy who make tons of money off war; the arm-chair quarterbacks who think it's a game... rah rah!

It's only the few, the proud, the reality based that don't like war.

she is speaking the truth.

and I think sam is excellent. i like al but he his soft joking around gets to me sometimes. i am a lot angrier than that.

for Democratic candidates and tours Iraq with the USO because he's not angry. He works his ass off because he's so rich. Give me a break.
:eyes:

when you don't face them personally. Do you imagine that we would have a homeless problem, or children that don't get enough nutritious food to eat, or graduate from high school without any knowledge of science, history, literature, etc. if the the ruling class faced them? Of course not. It has been allowed to continue and escalate for 30 years because it is only the 'little people' that face this reality.

Al Gore is a great man that, I believe, has a genuine concern for these issues. Yet he was the VP for 8 years while all of these problems continued to escalate. BTW, you can forget the propaganda about how great things were under Clinton in the 90's, they just manipulated the numbers so the reports looked better, the working class and the poor have been screwed by both parties for a generation now.

It is a class war and only one side is waging it. Get real. :eyes:

Yes, she's cynical, but it's an earned cynicism: Americans DO love war!

Did she offend you with the credit card comments?

Personally, I like Sam Seder a lot more than Al Franken -- though I like Franken's books.

Sam Seder on the other hand... I'd rather be locked in a cell and forced to listen to Kinky Friedman talking to himself.

NOT EVERY American, but the majority do like war...when they can show off their superority!

And when she said the reason there was so much protest to Vietnam, it WAS because there was a draft!

It doesn't matter what the issue is. It can be war, poverty, spying, or anything else...if the individual American doesn't feel directly affected by the issue, they don't really care. That's why you hear so many comments like "I don't care if they intercept my phone calls or emails, I'm not doing anything wrong!" or "People should just pull themselves up by their bootstraps!" or "That new bankruptcy bill is a good thing because THOSE people foolishly live beyond their means!"

yes

Also, when I hear someone use the words 'elitist' and 'intelligentsia' in the same breath, I get a little suspicious that he or she may have picked up their lingo from watching Fox News.

Social Studies is one of the funniest books of essays ever written, period.

I think she writes children's books now - but her old stuff is fantastic.

My impression is that she's always been a social critic, a keen observer of foibles and hypocrisy,
with a wicked, satiric pen. Can be very funny; usually is, in fact. She's correct about war having
become a standard US response to "uncomfortable" realities, especially when big corpos are
the ones bitching. Read ol' General Smedley Butler's "War is a Racket." Not that other countries
are innocent victims or bystanders, either.

We're a warlike people. We can't stand not to be fucking with someone. We couldn't wait for the Cold War to end so we could climb into the big Arab sandbox and play with our nice new toys. We enjoy war.

And one reason we enjoy it is that we're good at it. You know why we're good at it? Because we get alot of practice. This country is only 200 years old, and already we've had ten major wars. We average a major war every twenty years, So we're good at it!

And it's just as well we are, because we're not very good at anything else. Can't build a decent car anymore. Can't make a TV set, a cell phone, or a VCR. Got no steel industry left. No textiles. Can't educate our young people. Can't get health care to our old people. But we can bomb the shit outta your country, all right. We can bomb the shit outta your country!

Especially if your country is full of brown people. Oh, we like that, don't we? That's our hobby now. But it's also our new job in the world: bombing brown people. Iraq, Panama, Grenada, Libya. You got some brown people in your country? Tell 'em to watch the fuck out, or we'll goddamn bomb them!

Well, who were the last white people you can remember that we bombed? In fact, can you remember any white people we ever bombed? The Germans! That's it! Those are the only ones. And that was only because they were tryin' to cut in on our action. They wanted to dominate the world.

I think Fran is terrific.

And you're nasty.

Think a majority are now for pulling out because of humanitarian reasons and concern for the Iraqis? Because they've changed their principles? The same folks who supported an unprovoked "preemptive" war now see that it was inherently wrong or is it that they now see it was a mistake? Because the outcome is not as was promised and they now see they were sold a bill of goods that is draining the treasury, their tax money, while they've got shit at home to worry about.

Don't worry, Franken will return. Perhaps he'll have his friend, that paragon of uncynical virtue, G. Gordon Liddy as a guest again. Or Grover Norquist.

a guest. It was a long time ago, but I heard it live at the time. It really wasn't something I just pulled out of the air.

A quick search on Google suggests that I wasn't simply hallucinating listening to Grover guesting on Franken's show. In the comments on this blog someone else noted it: http://crazytalk.typepad.com/bluegrassroots/2004/12/admin_feliz_ano.html Found another mention of it elsewhere too.

Al did have Grover on as a guest.

remember this — would you have a date for it?

BTW, the source you quote thinks O'Reilly is more informed than Franken. He also prefers Hannity and Limbaugh.

Regardless of the poster's views in the link I posted, the poster clearly refers to listening to an interview Franken did with Norquist. Whether you remember or not, I have heard Norquist being a guest on Franken's show and so have others.

A google search also turned up a cached July 2004 thread in some forum that references Norquist having previously been on Franken's show: http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:pPwtDBfcB_gJ:www.rodneyanonymous.com/athens/phpBB2/viewtopic.php%3Fp%3D5904%26sid%3D1453b1fa34d3ae1b959f3304abacd7ba+Grover+Norquist+O%27Franken+Factor&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=6&client=opera

And here's a Sept 24, 2004 thread on a Franken fan site that discusses a Norquist appearance that day on Franken's show: http://www.alfrankenweb.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=16222&highlight=grover+norquist

Her social commentary is spot on.

of haute couture humorists. I've seen this woman on TV for decades and I've never EVER understood why she takes up so much valuable broadcast time/frequency. Her agent must really have some pretty colorful pictures of powerful men in compromising positions.

That having been said, I did hear her on Franken/Seder today and she was ABSOLUTELY 100% CORRECT in her comments. She just wasn't particularly funny. I have to cut her some slack, though, for two reasons: 1) She never is funny, and 2) how can you be funny about something as depressing as the situation she obviously sees that we're in.

And I don't really understand your problem with her.

I dont know how wide an audience she appeals to but Dems are nothing if not a diverse bunch. /

yet words from a critic of the war make her an elitest. She stated a fact: Americans hate losing wars, and prefer wars they win. Your effort in trying to paint her as an elitest was pathetic...

"Children make the best opponents at Scrabble, as they are both easy to cheat and fun to beat."

They don't even make any sense. I can't decide if you know who she is & have hated her for a long time for some reason, or if you don't know satirical commentary when you hear it, or an epigrammatic one-liner when you hear it ("Americans love war, unless they're losing.").

I saw Fran Lebowitz a couple of years ago on Charlie Rose and she was the most direct person on the panel. She spoke bluntly about the invasion of Iraq & this administration when everyone was still tap-dancing around it. Her cynicism was a breath of fresh air at the time.

Your rant is puzzling. Fran Lebowitz is not nasty & pathetic, but your comments sure are.