I think the US economy is in really, really bad shape. REALLY bad shape.

We're sucking billions of dollars out of the US economy to pay for the war in Iraq. This has a near catastrophic effect on our economy, where every dollar multiplies as it spreads through the economy. A previous example of the negative economic effect of war can be seen in the War of 1812, when the US nearly collapsed economically because of the costs of the war and the interference with sea trade. In the case of the current Iraq war, the pain of this "investment" of government dollars will be spread over decades because the government is borrowing heavily to fund it.

In addition, outsourcing sucks huge amounts of wage dollars from the economy which are not replaced by new job creation. So as outsourcing escalates, so does the economic pain associated with it. Joe down the street loses his job to outsourcing, so he can't in turn pay Bob the grocer, and Bob then can't pay Steve at the electric company.

Then there are the Bush tax cuts, which have forced escalating cuts in government programs, reducing the amount of government dollars spent in the economy. The rich are going to pocket their tax savings rather than increase spending, or even worse, will offshore their savings in overseas investments. So these dollars transferred from the poor to the wealthy increase our economic pain because of the way those dollars are (or aren't) spent. The poor, of necessity, spend all their dollars to cover their expenses. The rich, who have plenty of disposable income, will often let those dollars sit, or will offshore them to make even more money.

And contrary to what needs to occur to help the economy, which is more spending - what the government is actually doing is DECREASING spending in an effort to offset the increased foreign outlays of the Iraq war, and the protest of their constituency at the escalating debt. The more people scream about debt increases and spending, the more the government cuts, and the more economic pain filters through our economy.

We're seeing the economic effects in a number of ways. The growing immigration controversy is, in large part, a response to economic pain. People are suffering - from job losses, from wage cuts, from loss of benefits - and they decry the growing competition from foreign labor in response. I see this as similar to an injured person who is already in pain from being struck, who cringes from the threat of additional blows that have yet to fall.

And the injured are also reeling from the lack of traditional supports in economic downturns - food stamp reductions, non-existent welfare, lack of housing assistance, no health care, etc. And the threat of the government taking away what few supports are left - the loss of Social Security, botched pensions reform, revised bankruptcy protection, etc. So in this economic downturn, instead of a number of societal and government programs that reduce the pain of job loss and economic insecurity, we have the knowledge that if we lose our jobs, we're screwed.

IMO, this leads to a growing risk of violence if the economic situtation continues to deteriorate. A lack of government responsiveness increases the risk. As the old saying goes - what goes around comes around, and in the case of economic pain, what comes around may in the end be violence and social unrest.

I would hope that the voters are aware of what you know, and will be showing it at the polls in November.
These people are suffering, without jobs and health care, losing their homes and families. One would think that Bush could lie all he wants on TV, but that people are looking around and realizing what is actually happening in their towns, and seeing the truth.

the "good people" will quaff deeply of the koolaid and pretend all is OK and worthwhile.
In my opinion, though it may be long in coming, violence and armed uprising are inevitable--barring an attack from a large outside force.

... Joe Sixpack might be easily manipulated on a lot of issues, but I'm not so sure he can on the economy. I think it will be the mismanagement (or mismanagement for the average American, they've managed it fine for millionaires) of the economy that will actually put the nail in the GOP coffin.

When the pain becomes great, as I think it will within a few months to a few years at most, there will be nobody for the Republican to blame it on. It is an oncoming train not just for average Americans, but for the credibility of the GOP as well.

when what you are saying actually sounds optimistic and encouraging. I am not so confident but I hope you're right!

I just thought that to have a strong economy you had to produce something.
Or does the money just come out of all the jingoism and flag draped coffins?
I hope justice falls upon the heads of the 'W'afia someday like a face full of buckshot.

Are made in China.

(combination of two responses in this thread)

To have a strong economy you have to produce something.

We don't even make the flags that drape our soldiers' coffins.

They are made in China.

but I do believe you are correct in your statement that "to have a strong econoy, you have to produce something".

And that producing of something doesn't include the dead or injured troops. And it includes more than selling Big Macs, Whoppers, and whatever else the fast food restaurants supply.

I agree totally, and because I live in a rural town in Michigan, I see it happening right before my eyes. Many small town area's here are dependant on the auto industry, and the businesses are closing due to the downturn and the exporting of autoparts manufactering.
Owning a small business, I feel the economic downturn. My market is middle America, and it is fading fast! So its time to move on, and try to capture financially what I can.....before the violence explodes.

very well.

The elites might be banking on an economic collapse, so they can consolidate more absolute powers in the crisis that would surely following? Could very well be that the writing on the wall suggests a collapse is coming, but the attmept might be to get out in front of it, like the same way one uses 'controlled fires' to fight wild ones...

Just a thought...

If we get to the point that it looks like we are going to default, the first thing that will happen is cutting out SS, other pensions, medicare, and social programs.. That's always what the rich, and the pukes have wanted, but if a party were to try to cut it outright, it would amount to political suicide.. Another reason why I think it is true is look at Medicare Part D.. They intentionally made the program much more expensive than it had to be, and made it to where their friends in the drug companies would make out like bandits.. They get a two-fer, their friends get the money, and it hastens the program into financial straights.. The same with the war.. Lots of money being tossed around, too much, completely unaccounted for.. Again, the vast amount of money is going to R-wing friendly companies, and the rich that maintain the military industrial complex.. The same goes for the Highway Bill, and the Energy Bill.. They are intentionally driving our country over the edge so they can have what they wanted all along..

When SS is cut it will plunge something like 75- 100 million people into instant poverty, causing mass chaos.. They will then say for our own good they are going to "protect us" by tightening their grip..

My Dad is worth a considerable sum of money.. Growing up, I watched him loot 3 of his own companies.. The tactics that he used are just like what * and friends are pulling now, the only difference is that my Dad owned the companies that he pulled it on, and * and friends don't own our country..

It absolutely is.

The rich will be well insulated from the coming catastrophe. And, if worse comes to worse, they can hire private security guards to protect their gated communities.

If this plan comes to fruition, we'll be leaving the country. We're already planning on retiring elsewhere.

When ( IT ) comes your money with be worthless. Your money has been worthless since 1964 when they stopped exchanging Silver Certificates for Silver. The only possible repositories for your money will be in commodities which have some manufacturing uses.. I prefer Silver because it can oxidize and erode over time which doesn't happen with Gold. If you can, then put your money in 100 oz or 1000 oz. bars and hide then somewhere safely.

Forget stocks, bonds, Real estate, diamonds, semi precious stones, art etc. Put your money in something that will absolutely be needed when ( IT ) hits the fan.

silver is a good thing to buy. I went down to the local coin dealer last year. I was curious about what they have, in terms of silver coins, and what-not.

The lady showed me a bag full of silver coins. She said for as little as $10.00 per month, you can start collecting used silver coins, like dimes, quarters and so on. She said to only get coins before 1964. Anything after that is not silver. But the other coins are silver. They were actually pretty cheap.

And let's face it: if our economy goes to hell and our currency becomes like the German hyperinflated trash, silver and gold will become extremely valuable. But gold is pretty rare, and expensive. Wouldn't silver be adequate if it comes to a barter economy?

What's your take on this?

people who live by the rule of buy high and sell low will be poor forever and nobody goes broke faster than the gold bugs

.... but that presupposes that they aren't going yet higher. If hyperinflation sets in (not a certainty but certainly not completely unlikely), gold and silver will increase in value many fold in comparison to the dollar.

Folks should by gold/silver as a hedge against catastrophe, not as some kind of stock investment.

The first time you show somebody you have gold your life is worth jack. Americans need to learn from the Iraqi people.

Lesson 1) People cannot be governed without their consent.
Lesson 2) People cannot be governed from inside an armored vehicle.
Lesson 3) People who co-operate with an imposed government risk their lives.

It seems to work for them.

I agree with you. I think our economy is on life support. The heart beat is slowing down....it's flat lining...despite all the emergency measures taken.

However, none of the emergency measures have been good for the patient. The doctors gave the critical patient Steroids, Viagra, dumped valium & coke down his throat, only to squeeze out a few more days of life.

The fact is: we're bankrupt. The US currently borrows $2 billion dollars per day, just to service our debt. Not principal, just the interest.

And I'm willing to bet my last dollar that EVERY one od the Bush people have a CONTINGENCY plan. They've probably bought real estate in Argentina, a nice vineyard in Chile, maybe a hotel in Madagascar.

You better believe they're bailing on us.

consuming machines. Consumer credit card debt is out of control, and the Bushies want you to "buy, buy, and buy."

This New World Order includes social unrest as the way to justify police state tactics. It's all part of the plan.

The only way I see all these things working out is riots and the resulting police state. Leo Strauss's economics can only work if there is a police state to clamp the workers from asserting their power. Just look at Pinochet's Chile for an example.

I hear time and time again about the stupidity of Bu$h. I am here to tell ya, this guy is far from stupid. These neocon's know exactly what they are doing, and that is to steal everything not nailed down and destroy our country to make way for the NWO, an international power set-up over all nations and the peoples rights to self-determination subverted by destroying each national government until all thats left is a plutocracy of the wealthy ruling class.

It's class warfare the wealthy want to establish an international plutocracy. And Bu$h is the front man while they set it up.

After the USA, Europe is next.

Everything you say is true enough, but we also have a growing problem with energy. The latest issue of Barron's - published by Dow Jones News Service - has a column that mentions Peak Oil. Not as a remote possibility, but rather by 2010. Personally, I think it's already here. We got lucky this winter, and natural gas remained relatively cheap - don't expect that to continue.

And inflation is starting to kick in. If you don't think so, visit the grocery store....

When we combine wage deflation with price inflation, along with a punitive bankruptcy law and declining prices for houses, we're looking at a serious problem - one that may take 20 years (or more) to resolve. The 20 years, BTW, comes from a 90 page report prepared by SAIC, a top defense contractor, on the time required to develop alternative energy sources.

I fully expect to see a nasty recession by early 2007. The next president will have a challenge. Perhaps a greater challenge than Lincoln.

Instead of preaching to the converted (and drawing out all the wonderful cynicism in these replies) do you do any POSITIVE outreach, activism or education that might help people address these issues (rather than just get more depressed)?

What about all your Republican friends and family, "FormerRepublican"? Do you tell them all this? Maybe they already know, too!

:bounce:
:bounce:
:kick:


We don't need to be thinking "violence is the only answer."

I'm not talking politics when I predict violence, I'm talking human psychology. The recent riots in France are a good example of how this plays out. Ignoring the inevitable result of social problems won't make them go away.

I talk with my family about politics, including getting into big arguments. I've been proven right, and I think I'm winning converts.

I think the biggest positive we can do to address this is to get Bush kicked out of office. Which means we, as Democrats, need to stick together long enough to turn the tide on elections. I see the genesis for a lot of these problems in Republican political philosophy.

We also need to be writing our elected officials and doing some education on the realities of large scale economics. I have two Republican senators who hear from me quite regularly, and no doubt curse every time they receive an email from me. :)

Even what I do on DU falls into the realm of activism, since I prefer to read other posts more than I care to come up with something relatively intelligent to say. And while you might think everyone who reads DU is already a convert, the frequent exposure of freeper trolls makes it quite clear that they aren't. Therefore I will continue to speak out among the converted as well as among the clueless.

"Ignoring the inevitable result of social problems won't make them go away."

Who said anything about "ignoring the inevitable result of social problems"? The suggestion was that stating the obvious and inferring-- as a bottom line-- only violence will follow, is misleading and contributes to more dejected inaction. Dejected inaction REALLY = "Ignoring the inevitable result of social problems" and dejected inaction "won't make them go away."

"I think the biggest positive we can do to address this is to get Bush kicked out of office. Which means we, as Democrats, need to stick together long enough to turn the tide on elections. I see the genesis for a lot of these problems in Republican political philosophy."

Instead of feeding the dejection of people who already feel disenfranshised and disempowered with visions of "inevitable" violence, the real activism of DU is turning "social unrest" into "political action."







"And while you might think everyone who reads DU is already a convert, the frequent exposure of freeper trolls makes it quite clear that they aren't."

:freak:




"I see the genesis for a lot of these problems in Republican political philosophy."


:rofl: :rofl: talk about stating the obvious!! :rofl: :rofl: it's really encouraging that it is obvious to a "former Republican." :hi:

"IMO, this leads to a growing risk of violence if the economic situtation continues to deteriorate. A lack of government responsiveness increases the risk. As the old saying goes - what goes around comes around, and in the case of economic pain, what comes around may in the end be violence and social unrest."

What I was trying to say is that without intervention, the risk of violence grows. Not that violence is inevitable.

Human nature being what it is, if you put a human being in situation A, you can infer a high probability that situation B will result. Thus, it's logical if you see a possibility that situation B will arise, and that situation is undesirable (as violence would be), then you openly advocate intervention in situation A that could lead to situation B.

Make sense?

Human beings are extremely prone to violence. I have no illusions when it comes to human nature. We can be very, very good, but we can also be very, very bad.

mythical social upheaval that is perhaps-- in their minds-- inevitable and the only way this can possibly play out. Too many young people (DU or not) who may care about the issues, but missed out on progressive social activism and active citizen participation, think there is nothing they can do until some fantasy of violent protest and social unrest occurs-- without considering that we essentially alreay live in a police state, a hair's breadth from martial law. These Wild West fantasies may play out-- but it is too easy for some to :hide: feel disempowered and to nothing constructive politically in the meantime.

If you read the OP, you'll notice that it begins with "really, really bad shape. REALLY bad shape," continues through a well-crafted laundry list of the issues that we must face, then ends with "what goes around comes around, and in the case of economic pain, what comes around may in the end be violence and social unrest" and leaves it hanging there. Bookended so bleakly, this could invite more of that dejected cynicism, rather than draw attention and ACTION to the issues. As you can see from some of the replies, that is what happened. I questioned whether someone who presents such a focused playbook of important issues really wanted to leave that suggested violence hanging.....

Please don't assume that is "too flowery a perception of human nature." IMHO those who think they can sit on their ass and wait for martial law before taking any (constructive) action-- and the only action that matters is a violent response-- are seriously living in LaLa Land. We are in the fuxxing mess we are because for two generations people have thought there is nothing they can do and waited for an inevitable, Hellish future that they really don't want to live in!! "Human Nature" or frogs sitting in water as it gets hotter and hotter and.............

The OP says:

"IMO, this leads to a growing risk of violence if the economic situtation continues to deteriorate. A lack of government responsiveness increases the risk. As the old saying goes - what goes around comes around, and in the case of economic pain, what comes around may in the end be violence and social unrest."

A lack of citizen responsiveness increases the risk. Nowhere is it mentioned that we can do anything but connect the dots and then wait to be steamrolled. We KNOW there is no "government responsiveness" forthcoming. We KNOW that we have to build a grassroots movement on every and all issues that we face (many outlined in the OP).

Your quote: "and the only action that matters is a violent response"

This illustrates your bias in reading my post. In no way did I imply that the only action that matters is a violent response. I merely pointed out the escalating risk of a violent response should no action be taken to avert the result.

You said: "Nowhere is it mentioned that we can do anything but connect the dots and then wait to be steamrolled."

I think a reader can infer from my scathing comments regarding Bush government policies that the actions I advocate are the removal of Bush and his cohorts from office. Must a post command action of a reader when pointing out the dangers of political policy?

You said: "A lack of citizen responsiveness increases the risk."

In this I agree. And how might we overcome this inertia of the citizenry without pointing out the risks of inaction?

is that your ops are left hanging and seem to be fishing-- for what?

You ended with "pointing out the risks of inaction" by GOVERNMENT-- which of course will lead to dejection and cynicism............ We know that inaction by government will continue (without pubic intervention from the grassroots level) reaching that inevitability that no one really wants to experience.

If you want to argue that "we ARE the government" and invite people to take charge-- and as John Conyer said recently, "Tell our representatives, 'This is what we REQUIRE you to do'"-- that would be something other than a limp ending.

The concerns I raised were about this sort of message encouraging people to hide in the "yeah when it gets bad enough we'll be out in the streets" fantasy which is completely impotent and unrealistic. I was not referring to you or your OP in the quote you pulled (red herring) but to those who maintain that fantasy and that dejected, cynical impotence that CREATES the bleak hellish future of economic collapse and unrest that you outlined.

email response I got from Rep. Jim Ryun when I asked him to censure or impeach Bush. Totally denial and ass kissing of $Bush$.

I don't know what I was thinking! In too much of a hurry these days......

all you have to do is look for a job. I am employeed but looking for a better job and it's freeking impossible. That's all you need to know about the economy. If it's doing well, it will be easy to find a good job.

And every time a new Wal-Mart gets built, something like 10000 people apply for 450 jobs. That's happening all over the country, and I don't think it's because Wal-Mart has a wonderful reputation as an employer. Yes, a wonderful economy indeed.

Begging for a job at Walmart!

This is from a paper my wife's writing on outsourcing:



And of course, the twist of the knife is that Wal-Mart execs give millions of dollars to republican candidates.

How true. There are so few jobs out there, and most of them are low-paying service jobs. (If you get the local newspaper, try looking in the job classifieds & see how thin they are compared to when Clinton was in office.) Also, many cos. seem to only want contract workers, even in "right to fire" states where you can be let go for no reason at all.

and it's set to expire this year. Although this program is the proverbial 'drop in the bucket', it's the ONLY thing Bush has done right in order to ameliorate the ill effects of globalization--which he and his party wholeheartedly embrace !

ASA Capital Repatriation Scorecard
http://www.americanshareholders.com/news/asa-repats-03-20-06.pdf

Normally corporations would be taxed at 35% or so but under this program the capital is brought back from offshore and taxed at only 5.25%

Warren Buffett tried to warn us (he's a Dem, btw) that corporate welfare and taxation are killing us

Warren Buffett Urges Higher Corporate Taxes
www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0306-01.htm

The fact that foreign countries don't tax corporations at US rates stems from their lack of enormous defense expenditures. Currently, the DoD can't account for around $2.3 TRILLION dollars, CBS News 'War on Waste' article quoting Donald Rumsfeld himself. Folks, that is about a tenth of a year's GDP. Missing.

Corporate welfare in the US is another problem shifting taxation onto the middle and lower classes
http://www.corporations.org/welfare/

The 40% tax the ASA site mentions stands in stark comparison to the -38% tax cuts in corporate welfare the Corporations.org site shows. Hmmm.

In a top-heavy economy, the saying of Louis Brandeis rings true, 'You can have great wealth or a democracy, but you cannot have both'. We are in danger of losing ours to those who can afford to hide their wealth. David Cay Johnston's Perfectly Legal points this out along with Kevin Phillip's Wealth and Democracy.

Creedence Clearwater Revival - Bad Moon Rising



As a kid I always knew this song was going to have meaning later in life.

And my question is... Why?

Why would anyone do this to their own country? I think this is why so many Americans have a hard time seeing the truth of what is going on. It is almost inconceivable.

The only answer I can come up with to bankrupting our country is to re-align the classes to The Rich and those that Serve The Rich... i.e. slavery.

I read something in a sci-fi book the other day that really gave me pause:

'They think that if people can possess enough things they will be content to live in prison'
(Ursula K. Le Guin 'the Dispossessed')

But now.. even that sort of 'prison' is not enough for these kinds of treasonous criminals?

It is so frustrating. It is hard to keep up hope for the future.

that can perhaps help to explain the 'why' you ask, for I have asked myself the same thing. You really have to read it ALL - poster comments (many good ones w/additional info/insight), as well as the full text that the OP cites on this first thread (it's a very long read):

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=739849

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=735395

that will be cut is SS, other pensions, and social programs.. They have been trying to do away with them since they started, especially SS.. They will get what they want.. When SS is cut out, it will plunge 75- 100 million into instant poverty, and cause mass chaos.. At that point they will tighten their grip on our freedoms to "protect us" for our own good.. We lose our money and our freedom, and they get to keep it all.. At least, that's what I think..

And why should they? They don't have to live in the same country we do.

After they get finished stripping the U.S. Treasury they can sit back in their cozy walled palaces, possibly in the U.S. but just as easily abroad. They'll never have to depend on public education, subsidized housing, Medicare, Social Security or any of the other programs they're stripping. They don't even need to rely on the police or the army- they can hire their own private "security" firms. Their money insulates them from reality and from the consequences of their actions.

when we finally go broke.
Without a functioning federal govt, will the nation be divided up into regional soveriegnties? Like Indian reservations, only bigger?

Maybe the New England states will band together.
California can annex Oregon, Washington and Nevada.
The "Bible Belt" in the midwest can find common values.
The states in the deep south already have their own language.
Texas and Montana will want to keep the present borders, of course.

New America...more choices.

... is why the "power elites" who are orchestrating this giant ripoof think that people will take to the streets with torches and pitchforks rather than starve.

They won't have to, they have guns now.

My spouse & I think that there will be a major implosion within a few years. The national debt is a record 8.9 trillion, the deficit is a record 423 billion, the tax base is shrinking with so many well-paying jobs outsourced to foreign countries. GM is about bankrupt, airlines are going bankrupt. This country can't maintain itself on minimum wage workers much longer.

But the stock market is over 11,000. Aren't we doing great! :sarcasm:

What % of US GNP went to war effort in 1812 v. the current situation? What % of wealth was debt in 1812 v. today?

http://education.yahoo.com/reference/encyclopedia/entry/War1812
http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761571913/War_of_1812.html
http://occawlonline.pearsoned.com/bookbind/pubbooks/ehrenberg_awl/chapter1/custom1/deluxe-content.html
http://www.galafilm.com/1812/e/background/amer_warhawk.html
http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/books/amh/amh-06.htm

By the way, you can thank the War of 1812 for the imposition of income taxes.

And on the economic consequences of the War in Iraq (written several years ago, so is optimistic in retrospect):

http://cowles.econ.yale.edu/P/cd/d13b/d1387.pdf#search='War%20of%201812%20economics'

Specifics -

The history of the national debt - you can view current debt and debt in 1812 here:

http://www.publicdebt.treas.gov/opd/opd.htm

Interesting article on Debt and GDP:

http://www.financialsense.com/fsu/editorials/2005/0123.html

To check GDP for 1812 vs. current:

http://www.eh.net/hmit/gdp/

or unhappy, or hurting is a "liberal idiot". Put me first in line.

We are in a war without end that is taking every tax dime and then some. The BFEE has robbed us blind, outsourced our jobs, taken from our schools, our elderly, our disabled and our poor. They are systematically crushing Unions and letting companies blow off pensions so people have nothing to live on when they retire. Next up will be the stealing of our social security-which they WILL do-just wait and see.

These bastards have put us ALL in the poor house so that eventually their friends at the World Bank can come in and take over our assets-national forests, water, etc., etc., etc. No doubt their goal is for majority of us to end up homeless without a dime to live on in our old age.

We are SO screwed. :grr:

.......Always has been always will be.......gotta have heat, water, etc.....I do not believe that violence although a trademark of our culture will rise to a level to which you suggestivly ascribe however I do share your frustrations.....The corruption of our most basic American values is so intertwined with the need to succeed that it is inevitable a cult of personality will barracade/bond itself so as to make for smooth sailing......I firmly believe in the goodness of mankind however our cliche driven culture must realign itself if "we the people"/America is to remain a beacon of hope for the rest of the world.....Nice place to visit, just don't drink the water.....best wishes and again nice post

Last year, the proceeds from Christmas got me through till June -- in other words, paid the overhead inherent in running a business. This year? The cash was gone by March 1. I thought I was alone till I started talking to other small business owners, who are finding themselves in the same boat.

It is hard for me to believe that all is well with the economy when the little guys are being essentially squeezed out of business. People do not have disposable income right now. The "frills" (like hobbies, books, etcetera,) are falling by the wayside. This will tank many, many businesses before it's done.

Julie

leaving only the unprofitable small businesses that sap time and life energy and leave the business owner making less than the minimum wage and not being able to buy health insurance

i would never advise anyone to go into small business today, if a business area is profitable, you would see a "major" doing it

is own by a few the country has a Depression...

we are there folks...

If Housing goes Boom thats the big sign!!!

weapons program as it appears

They are building laser weapons platforms in space that can quell rioting masses with the flip of a switch.

http://www.cndyorks.gn.apc.org/yspace/articles/controlling_space_arena.htm

more here:

www.space4peace.com

and a good documentary

http://www.envirovideo.com/starwars.html

"This is not a picture from your kid's sci-fi comic. It's an illustration from a report by Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld's Space Commission. The report advocates circumventing the intent of international laws (notably, the Outer Space Treaty of 1967) that seek to keep space free from war and urges that the President "have the option to deploy weapons in space." National Missile Defense, begun as Star Wars under Reagan, is just one layer of this much larger scheme to "control" space and "dominate" the earth, in the words of the report. "The United States is seeking to turn space into a war zone," maintains the Global Network Against Weapons and Nuclear Power in Space (www.space4peace.org)."

from what the working class might spend on something else...

Is any of our money safe in banks?

Take a look at your avatar, and remember what happened around the time he was elected....
I, myself, have closed my bank account, stopped my direct deposit, and I cash my paycheck immediately.
I pay cash for everything now, including the silver coins I am saving....

Your mileage may vary.....:scared:

....things are slowing down around here, have been for quite some time....

....and from the Middle East to Chavez buying a 100000 rifles instead of missles, Osama and the boys have shown EVERYONE in the world how to insurection effectively, using IEDs, car bombs and suicide bombers....

....they've proven, you don't need hi-tech and missles to styme the worlds last great super-power into a grinding stalemate....

....I thought the effects of that great economic proctologist, Adam Smith with his invisable finger were bad enough, but if all hell breaks out here, I'm running to Canada....Oh Canada....

food and gasp inkjet ink is going way up. The ink has even gone up at COSTCO!
Cost of oil is going to drive everything up. Were it not for Raygun and his ilk past and present our dependence on oil would be much much less and programs started under Ford and Carter might have had us leader in renewable resources. Germany and Japan lead us in solar energy use.
Of course the war on terra (both terrorists and terra firma) is going to bring this nation down.

and other things Yes I have noticed...

I see what you're saying and think it's why they put issues like this out there to pit us against ourselves.

While we're wasting time doing that, nobody's watching the big picture.

It pays no dividends other than to a small amount of contractors, who mostly spend on pet projects in the war zone.

As opposed to infrastructure spending or small-business loans or medical plans which show real returns for the people it's intended for - the citizens.

After all, this is your tax dollars being driven away in SUV's by unnamed couriers.

published by the Federal Reserve as of today, March 26th, 2006....

The M3 (money supply index) has always been the best indicator of inflation...

When I heard this bit of news back in the fall that the Fed wasn't going to be publishing it anymore, the red flags went up big time....guess these criminals running our country into the ground while they rob our treasury and pocket it, figure that if they stop publishing the M3 index, that nobody can actually see the mass amounts of money they are printing and putting into the market and that inflation is out of control...

No, they will just keep having their talking mouths in the MSM tell everyone that the economy is just dandy....

Gee Du(m)b is gonna bankrupt us yet!

I don't trust their numbers, from unemployment to cost of the war to the "booming economy" all these nuts claim.

And wondering how we can protect ourselves. We're pretty typical boomers with a small house and modest retirement savings. We're worried that our savings will be eaten by inflation. We don't want to invest in real estate because it's due for a collapse. Sometimes we think we ought to buy a farm in the country and learn to raise our own food, but we're getting just too old and creaky for that kind of adventure. Is there any way for us to protect our assets?

the debtor is the winner in the case of inflation or hyperinflation, your savings can't really be preserved, and since you are older, they can't be replaced by working at the new hyper-inflated wages

i'm in the same boat and don't know what to suggest

IF the hyper-inflationary scenario comes to pass, the person who is leveraged in real estate will make a killing, because the dollars he owes become trivial, and he still has the property -- but there is no guarantee that it will, and in the deflationary scenario, the debtor goes bankrupt instead of joining the elite

unless you have a good crystal ball, my strongest suggestion is to keep fighting to keep social security from being "means tested" or otherwise watered down, because it is prob. all that most of us can count on, a lifetime of savings and hard work are easily wiped away by hyper inflation


raising food to save $100 a month is neither here nor there when the medicine to keep you alive will cost thousands -- and it is illegal to manufacture your own medicines even if, like some of us, you have sufficient chemistry background to know how

Now I'm really depressed.

it's a screeching good deal x( pennies on the dollar acquisitions & leveraged buy-outs abound

25 or 30 years with good wages and benefits, and now are trying to live in areas where $10 is the maximum one can find a job.

My sister's plant closed after 30 years. She went to from $16 to ten dollars a hour. Hardly no benefits.

The people she worked with for the 27 years; a lot of them had something they didn't talk about either---they didn't graduate high school. We are talking about 55-60 year old people, where do you find a job now days without a diploma?

Okay, it's time to fess up, Democrats. The strength of the stock market doesn't reflect the health of the economy now, and it didn't while Clinton was in office, either. The total amount of wealth means nothing if the the wealth is as mal-distributed as it is in America. The trend to a shrinking middle class began in the seventies. While Clinton was able to slow the slide, he failed to reverse it.

An interesting phenomenon in my lifetime -- and one perversely related to this -- is difference between the way broadcast moguls look at the Nielsen ratings and the like. When I was a youngster (I'm 54), a rating point was a rating point was a rating point. If that program x on channel n got far fewer viewers than program y on channel m, then program x was canceled; that was simple. Nowadays, it's different. Program x may still get far fewer viewers, but now it's program y that get canceled. Why? Because the surveys show that the people watching program x have more disposable income than those watching program y. It's no longer people watching programs, but only those with a bulge in their back pockets.

All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others.

excuse my statistics, something like 5% of the world's people, 25% of the energy consumption and so on. Having grown up in a relatively poor part of the country, I sort of have the philosophy that communities were more resilient when they didn't have so much materialism. Maybe we'll see a return to more sustainable values. We didn't have money, so we had to rely more on ourselves, our neighbors, our towns, what we could scavenge, what we could grow, and sometimes what we could steal. I'm not saying it wouldn't suck for a lot of folks who might think they are entitled to something better, but I am saying it's not necessarily a violent collapse of society. Perhaps all that worry about violence and social unrest is part of your perspective?