Excuse me?? Ted Kennedy wants people to have to LEARN English to become a

a citizen? WTF is that? I do not see how anyone who considers themselves to be a decent human being could ever support something like that. What difference could it make if someone does or doesn't know English?

http://www.visalaw.com/05may4/3may405.html

on edit better link

Adjustment of Status to Permanent Residency for H-5As


* H-5A workers seeking to adjust status must be physically present in the US and they must meet the naturalization English language and civics requirements or show they are enrolled in a course to meet these requirements.

I lived in Holland and it is a requirement to learn Dutch to become a citizen. Even a resident is required to take a 600 hour course. Back then, they paid for that course - it was required, but FREE. Unfortunately it is no longer free but I think that kind of program would be GREAT here.

Tell me what I am missing.

I didn't think such a thing existed

I could be wrong but I do not think we have made English an official language

I am serious. Look it up.

be a good thing for the government teaching immigrants English at no charge would be a good thing.

They fill right up. Evening or weekend classes--timed for people who have jobs--are especially important.

and warning labels. No one is forcing anyone to SPEAK english, but enough knowledge to make yourself safe is a good thing.

but English is the de facto language.

and while I don't think that the US should have a legal national language, you really cannot become part of most of society in the US without speaking some sort of English.

:) It's never been officially decreed or made into law.

is not the official language, but it is pretty well accepted by pretty much anyone (including most immigrants) that if you don't know English, you will not get anywhere (unless you are a dependent senior living in a relatively segregated area).

It is the defacto language of business, commerce, and society in general. And I like your idea of offering a course (though I'd prefer it offered for LEGAL immigrants).

I'm opposed to race baiting and I certainly favor allowing students more exposure to Spanish and other foreign languages, but I think it would be smart to make English the official language. This would not discourage Spanish use - many recent immigrants from Latin American counries will likely still feel more comfortable in their native tongue, so it would still be smart for businesses to hire Spanish speakers.

"Under the McCain-Kennedy plan for the 12 million undocumented workers already in the United States, they can apply for temporary status for six years, must demonstrate past work history, pay a 2 thousand dollar fine, undergo rigorous background and security checks, learn English and American civics, make good on back taxes, and satisfy additional criteria. Then if they wait until everyone already waiting their turn is processed through system they can apply for a green card. It is not amnesty, as opponents of the measure contend, rather it would give immigrants an incentive to come forward and an opportunity to earn legal status."

for those who do, or are trying to, as far as considering letting you immigrate. Sorry, but I don't see what's indecent about it. What difference could it make? Try to find a job in which you don't have to speak any English. Oh yeah, and our road signs are in English. For starters. I wouldn't insist they be able to write the great American novel, but a working command of English is a reasonable expectation within a year or two of living here, at least.

A working command of a second language can be relatively quick for some and almost impossible for others.

2nd Language acquisition varies dramatically between individuals.


Older immigrants may never acquire a working command of english even after years. And not for lack of trying, either.

learning a second language is next to impossible.

is never a given, especially as people age.

My linguistics Prof told us a story about a friend who taught linguistics and 2nd language acquisition. She was a native English speaker and knew Italian and French quite well. When she took a University position in the South West, she decided to study Spanish. It didn't work. This led her to develop a course called Foreign Language for Older People or FLOP for short :)

I tutored a Somali woman who was illiterate, so that she had to learn English and reading at the same time.

She learned basic survival skills with the help of teenagers in the family who were in ESL programs in school.

A two-step process is also possible.

One of the Spanish professors at my former employer offered a Spanish literacy class for immigrants that could be used as a prerequisite to ESL classes.

it's not unusual for kids to not even GO to school.. They learn their language, but they are ILLITERATE in even their own language.. And then we have math-science-history-etc.. If you only get a rudimentary education BEFORE you immigrate, you are twice-cursed..

To grow subsistence crops and make repairs on your own homestead, you don't NEED to know how to read and write...BUT when you go to a more advanced society, you are doomed to stoop labor and manual chores if you do not learn the language spoken by most of the people where you settle.

It would be the same for a German who settled in Italy (if they did not know Italian)..Americans who retire to Mexico can probably get along fine without ever knowing Spanish because English is an invasive language, and if your money source is the US and you are not working, you can stay to yourselves and never need Spanish..

Mexicans who come here are desperate to get their kids schooled before they get too old,because those kids are often the ones in the family who translate and interpret for the parents and grandparents..

I think it would be wonderful if the US realized that instead of punitive measures, they should be eager to set up schools to help people learn english...regardless of their immigration status..
It solves nothing to make sure they have the most difficult time assimilating, only to accuse them later,of not wanting to.

for seniors, if the bill's requirements are similar to those for naturalization.

Most here don't realize how simple the requirements actually are. I took it a while back. While the civics questions may stump many Americans, the language tests a VERY basic understanding of the English language. They ask you to read a sentence and write one.

The Kennedy bill is relatively reasonable. My only concern is the place of those that entered illegally compared to those that entered legitimately. I don't know how that will be determined. I don't want those that broke the law to get a better deal than those that jumped through the INS' (now BCIS') hoops.

acquiring a foreign language is quite another thing.

Two completely separate learning mechanisms and not at all equivalent.

My grandparents had to meet it. :shrug:

Or should i say, "Anche miei genitori!"? See, an immigrant can learn English without giving up on the heritage!
The Professor

It makes no sense. How do we require people to learn a language we refuse to adopt as the lingo of the land?

immigrate there.

site newsletter they had some real doozies. The one I want to have made in to a bumper sticker is "New Jersey, come her for vacation, leave here on probation" Anyone who lives in this state knows that the powers to be are a bunch of law making psychos. Both Dems and Pubs. Someone went around our little town of fascist cops and wrote police state all over the place. Being a tax payer, I didn't like the graffiti but the sentiment was pretty accurate.

...and if so, I agree with him. You SHOULD have to learn English to become President.

Actually, minimum English proficiency has been part of the citizenship test for decades. And it IS minimum (read "The Education of H*Y*M*A*N K*A*P*L*A*N" if you want a really fun take on it.)

Among the other requirements are a basic grasp of the Constitution and Bill of Rights, the ability to distinguish between Federal and local levels of jurisdiction, and a few basics that kids don't even learn in Civics class anymore.

The American Citizenship test isn't really very academically demanding by the standards of other world nations that require citizenship tests.

The test doesn't demand that someone be able to give a major speech in English, or translate one. It's about like a first-semester Spanish quiz in difficulty. With reasonable coaching, even elderly people who aren't terribly literate in their first languages can usually get through it.

It's not terribly unreasonable.

quizzically,
Bright

I had to prove, I could write and read English. It's the law that's been place for long time. I have no idea what the hell you talking about.

There's a lot of ignorance in this thread, starting with the failure to make it clear that the legislation being proposed applies to "illegal immigrants" who, one might suspect, have had a 'total immersion' opportunity to learn English for some time - many years in some cases.

My grandparents immigrated to the US from Norway and were required to pass a relatively simple English proficiency test to obtain their citizenship. My former fiancee immigrated from Japan and faced the same requirement for citizenship. This is not something new.

when I checked out requirements for Canadian citizenship, one must know at least one of their languages--French or English I believe--hopefully a Canadian will come along and correct me on this, if I'm leaving something out or if I'm in error of the language reqs. for Canada. :)

I haven't visited their site in a while.

No one is saying one can't speak what they want in their own time, in their own home, with family and friends, when out on the town, etc--one just has to be able to communicate to a certain degree.

Yet, I also think it's sad that so many in America are incredibly ethnocentric and don't see the value in learning to speak other languages. The diversity of our country seems to necessitate that we should be bilingual even trilingual.

:hi:

I personally feel that Spanish, in particular, should be required in all public schools from at least 6th grade onwards. I also believe another language (a thurd) should be a college entrance requirement. It's appalling how mono-lingual (or less) we are in this country. (Myself included, of course.)

Spanish for two years. My 15-year old has taken Spanish for two years in high school. They are at about the same level of understanding. I think it's much easier to learn a different language at a young age. And I agree that we should be at least exposed to learning a different language at a young age in school. Many other countries teach their students one or two other languages as a given.

questions. however it did open my eyes to how many rights we've lost.

I have lived in five foreign countries. To get a driver's license, ID card, or certainly to vote, you had to be able to manage in that country's language. This doesn't shock me at all.

as a requirement for citizenship.

We're an English speaking nation, in spite of the many people who also speak some other language.

citizen.

The other thing you might want to think about is that, at least in So. Cal, 50% of the illegals, or childred of illegals QUIT HS in their sopohore year! I listened to a public speech the new Mayor of LA gave to the protestors today. When he told them he had already signed local legislation that would over-ride the Sensenbrenner bill, they all sheered, and then he told them that they had to stay in school and graduate, and they chanted boos!

There's poor thinking on both sides of this argument!

my Citizenship.

into the camera waving their freakin gang hand signs!!

as many immigrants, who never learned English, but who lived and worked here a lifetime, couldn't take out their citizenship papers and it meant they couldn't vote. I hope they don't change it back again.

... for as long as I've known.

See http://uscis.gov/graphics/services/natz/require.htm

people were able to take the oath in their native language. I think it was done really for the old Asian people who found English very difficult. Could it be a state thing? Because in California I don't think you have to know English.

It has to do with multi-lingual government sevices where the most likely to be unsupported are (tax-paying) permanent residents, not naturalized citizens.

FWIW, I recommend ESL Volunteering for people who wish to support our immigrant population.

I know quite a few years ago, California attempted to declare English the official language of California. I think the bill/law was actually voted on and it passed, which was odd to me, considering the diversity of CA. :shrug:

I think in CA they'd like for us all to know English--they just have no way to actually enforce such a rule, which is why I didn't get the creation of it.

like people who fought with Americans during the Vietnam war and came here as political refugees.

My wife just went through the process of becoming a citizen. You are required to be able to speak and write English and pass a citizenship test written in English.

they don't know the language?

Think about it...road signs, grocery shopping, important mail, schooling for your children. The list goes on and on. It's as much for the benefit of the immigrant as for the state. As long as such classes are free and readily accessible, I don't have a problem with it.

I wouldn't move to a non-English-speaking country without having at least a basic understanding of the language that is spoken there, and I'd be damn sure to enroll in language classes once I arrived. It's easier for all sides. Can you imagine moving to Japan, France, or Germany for the rest of your life (and be an active member of society) without ever knowing Japanese/French/German?

Those are native populations (in place since at least the Middle Ages) who happen to speak four languages--and beside, most Swiss are multilingual and can manage AT LEAST one of the other official languages, and other foreign languages, too.

One of the residents of my apartment building in Portland was a young man from the French-speaking part of Switzerland who spoke German and Italian and nearly perfect English.

Switzerland's multilingualism was not born ex nihilo; it developed according to the process by which the Cantons integrated with one another. Education in secondary and tertiary languages developed rather late (I believe late 19th Century) and did not play a significant role in the creation of Swiss unity.

it is a bit easier. Road signs are usually in two languages, like Canada. And because they actually have, you know...a school system that teaches the kids a second (or third) language. Put an non-English-speaking immigrant from any country in front of most Americans, and you'd get nothing more than a blank stare. We're so seperated by time and space and a shitty educational system that even if we started right now, it would take years to reach the level of a truly bilingual/multilingual society. And once that goal was reached, what would happen in regions/communities where immigration is not particularly high, where kids didn't have to use it every day? The Swiss have four major languages spoken within a relatively small geographic area, where people have to utilize their language skills on a regular basis.

Yeah, Switzerland and the United States are exactly the same. :eyes:

Do I like the fact that most Americans don't know a second language and that it will take a long time to change such a fact? Of course not.

Do Americans need to learn a second language from a young age, regardless of where they live? Yeah.

But I don't think it's at all out of line to require proficiency in one of the country's dominant languages, as long as the training is free and accessible to all. I wouldn't dream of moving to Spain for the rest of my life (and attaining Spanish citizenship) with no Spanish training and no plans for such training. It benefits me. It benefits the people with whom I communicate on a daily basis. It's a good thing.

access.

:)

do not have to learn English? By the way, they are considered second class citizens for some reason.

Besides, if the President is unable to speak English why should they?

They do not pay taxes.

Unlike the poor bastards in DC, they at least are not taxed without representation. :shrug:

They do not have representation because most of the treaties dealing with those territories were done during the segregation era. Since they were non-white, they became "the other black". Citizens without representation. They don't pay taxes because their opinion is not welcome.

http://uscis.gov/graphics/services/natz/general.htm


"Language

Applicants for naturalization must be able to read, write, speak, and understand words in ordinary usage in the English language. Applicants exempt from this requirement are those who on the date of filing:

have been residing in the United States subsequent to a lawful admission for permanent residence for periods totaling 15 years or more and are over 55 years of age;
have been residing in the United States subsequent to a lawful admission for permanent residence for periods totaling 20 years or more and are over 50 years of age; or
have a medically determinable physical or mental impairment, where the impairment affects the applicant’s ability to learn English."

if you can't speak the lingua franca, it takes longer to become a citizen, but you can still do it. At the end of the day, English is by far the predominant language in the US, our courts are conducted in English, our laws are written in English, our government operates entirely in English; it just makes sense for people to try and learn it at some level. English isn't the de jure language of the US, but it's the de facto one, without English, you cannot really function in the US as of now. yes, more Americans should speak other tongues, but as a matter of fact, we don't. And a country without a lingua franca cannot survive for long (see: tower of babel)

We should be promoting English speaking in this country, just so long as government gives people the tools to do that: free English classes all over the country.

learn English for her US Citizenship test. It's great to be a liberal but not an enabler in some cases.

you to" ?????????

It's an important part of being an informed citizen, and it's important to your own well being".

language of a country if you want to live there. Were I to move to a country where the primary language was something other than English, I feel I should learn it. It would make it much easier for me to communicate with the people who grew up in that country, and would help me integrate better.

In my job, I have dealt with people who have immigrated here, been here for years, and still have very little grasp of English. I don't understand why they wouldn't learn English.

Why are you looking at this as if it's a bad thing? People who want to become citizens are required to learn many things about America before becoming a citizen. Why not have them learn the primary language too. Now, if Kennedy, or anyone else, said that an immigrant could never speak their native tongue again after becoming an American citizen, THAT I would have a problem with.

at least basic communications.

Television, radio, newspapers. And if it's not that's what the SAP button is for.

And not only the government -- non profits do as well.

And even so, the range of materials available in Spanish is much more limited.

People come to the United States from all over the world, speaking all different kinds of languages, not just Spanish. Here in Seattle, we have a huge Asian population, and there are many Asian dialects spoken here. The county government, as well as many businesses in the private sector here, print information in many different languages, which is absolutely great. But again, if one moves to another country, I think they should learn at least some of the history of the country, certainly the cultural mores, and the language too, at least enough to have the most basic of conversations.

I guess I just don't understand why you seem to be so against immigrants having to learn English, RG. I don't see it as a negative thing at all. And being bilingual, especially in cities like Seattle, can actually help enhance a person's attractiveness as a potential employee. And that's not a bad thing.

Edited for grammar.

I'm not against people learning anything they want to learn.

It's their choice to immigrate and meet the standards for citizenship.

You move to a country, you need to learn the ways and the language of that country. I use interpreters all the time because I have clients who have not made an attempt to learn English. I don't think I'm being a jingoist by thinking people who move to this country should have to learn English. As I said before, if I move to another country where English is NOT the main language, I should have to learn the native language of that country. It just seems logical.

Yes it's a burden. Are there burdens to being a citizen? You bet--voting, being aware, participating in debate.

Not to mention the notion that it takes a big step toward national unity between ethnic groups.

what difference does it make if anybody understands them or not? They can use sign language, or if that doesn't work they can draw pictures.

If somebody is drowning and cries for help in a foreign language, what difference does it make if he/she doesn't know English? It's really their own business if they don't speak any English---even some of the basic words. If nobody understands them that's just too bad. It's their right to drown if they want to.

:silly:

Good one, Andromeda! :rofl:

it is viewed as incredibly rude to move to a country and not learn the principal tongue. If I were, for instance, to move to Germany, you damn betcha I'd be refreshing and boning up on my German (which I've forgotten most of). If I insisted that they speak English and bend over to accomodate me in that manner I would be rightly viewed as a colossal asshole. I wouldn't think of joining a society without at least making an effort to properly integrate myself into it, and that includes learning the language. It is not at all unreasonable or anti-progressive to expect from others wishing to join our society to extend the same courtesy that would be rightly expected of us if the roles were reversed.

Nobody is advocating prohibiting immigrants from communicating with each other in their own native tongue, nor is anyone advocating that Americans shouldn't learn other languages (indeed, foreign languages aren't stressed enough, schools need to back off on the football jockstrap crap and put more emphasis on languages and arts and music, things that actually make human beings better human beings). All that is asked is that those desiring to become citizens have the ability to function in the main stream of American society. It's more for their own good than anything else.

Todd in Beerbratistan

Your points are exactly the ones I've been making. I have had a few -- a VERY few -- encounters with immigrants who thought that I should follow THEIR customs. These very few were males from countries where women were way down the list of important people. Besides being offended at being treated in a terribly misogynist way, I was even more offended that these folks moved here, and yet thought I, and others, should adapt to the wayis of THEIR native country. What the heck is up with that?

Again, it was only a very few, but I would never move or even visit another country and expect THEM to act according to the customs of America.

We are an English speaking country regardless whether we have an 'official' language or not. THEY want to be a citizen, they want a piece of the pot of gold (Which is very tarnished), they must learn English for their own good. They will continuously be exploited by Corportate Fascism if they don't. All the posters that are outraged...What job can they get here w/o learning English.

I agree with Kennedy 100%Be self serving for a second....Do you know how Spanish speaking news stations report the news? We have enough problems with FOX...Do you want citizens that have a Spanish version? Rush or Hanity in Spanish would not be pretty.

....We are an English speaking country regardless whether we have an 'official' language or not. THEY want to be a citizen, they want a piece of the pot of gold (Which is very tarnished), they must learn English for their own good. They will continuously be exploited by Corportate Fascism if they don't. All the posters that are outraged...What job can they get here w/o learning English.

Every other immigrant group, and we've had so many, has learned English, the language of our laws and our constitution.

Suddenly, the incoming groups are too stupid to do that? You know they aren't.

What would you prefer? Quebec? An insular, separatist enemy in the heart of the nation? How many of those would we have?

Ever hear the story of the Tower of Babel? The people couldn't speak to each other, so they fought and separated.

On the other side, language is a convenient method of segregation. Don't teach English to the newcomers, keep them from joining the society at large. Nice.

Nobody entering this nation is too dumb to learn English. They never have been and they aren't now.

Junior is certainly no model of proficiency in the English language.

Maybe we could then revoke his citizenship? :evilgrin:

respecting and loving that country SO DAMN MUCH that you are willing to become part of it. Not just take the work it offers you, educate your children, get medical care for your family, and flip the middle finger when asked to make one effort to tell that Country how much you REALLY DO want to be part of it.
I truly know of no other immigrants who come here without making an attempt to communicate in the English language to some degree.

I don't think asking anyone to respect our Nation and the language of it is too much to ask in the name of making life better than where they came from.
If I moved to any other country I would have to learn to communicate in that Country's language..Why do some Hispanic people feel as though they shouldn't have to be held to that also?

I generally feel for the Hispanic population..understand their reasons for coming to this country..their plight is for the same reasons our ancestors came to America. I don't know..show some freakin gratitude for what America has to offer ..respect that our Nation is an English speaking one..We are not all learning Asian languages just so we can communicate with the Asian ( or any other immigrants) population.

For cripes sake..what's the problem with learning the language of the country you take up residency in?!!
At least learn it enough to communicate.
I don't think that is asking too much at all..
Guess they have to weigh the benefits of living here with how much work they have to put into it all.

Sorry
I disagree with your post.

Blaze

to be "respectful"?

Ya'll best be talkin like WE talk...ya hear now?

Course if'n yer from up yonder in yankee land..up north in that there dad-gum Boston, ya'll best be learnin it a differnt way, fer sure.

Ya got yer northern talk, an yer southern talk, an yer midwestern talk, an then there's the country talk, an the city talk..then there's the black talk, an the whitey's talk, an them there Orientals talk, yep, an the Russians too, and them there Jordanians - an them bayou talkers..an by the time ya get through the dang long lines at the citizen sign-up office ya'll be good at about five or six of them kinda talks..

Ya have yerself a real fine day now..ya hear.

Where the first generation does not speak english or only minimal english, the second generation end up bilingual and the third only speak english. It all works out.

- they can communicate 'easily' with each other

- share goals/ideas/ideals/hopes/dreams with each other

- people who don't share the common 'national' language can easily become ignored/marginalized

- most people in America now are 'from someplace else' ~ somebody/somewhere along the 'chain' had to learn english! Your german, polish, dutch, finnish, slovak, portgeuse, greek, ancestors learned ENGLISH....even if it wasn't the first generation it was the second.

My grandmother never had a firm grasp of english. She taught her daughter (my mother) their native tongue...and the nuns at school taught my mother english. My mother never taught me her ancestral tongue, quite regrettably, b/c she wanted me to be "fully American". I have a HUGE disdain for her decision, b/c I know how much it would have helped me in my life, albeit in very subtle ways, but very IMPORTANT ways.

So, my feeling is that, YES, if you live in the US, you should make an earnest attempt to learn english. HOWEVER, you should also learn your ancestral language as well. Additional knowledge only helps, not hinders, the individual as well as 'the whole'.

a country you want to spend the rest of your life in.

English is our de facto official language: the Constitution is written in English; the Declaration of Independence is written in English; all government business is conducted in English; the Congressional Record is published in English; the courts operate in English. I could go on and on. Until recently, virtually all major media were in English - TV, radio, newspapers.

What language would you have immigrants learn? Tagalog? Farsi? Bantu? Hindi? FRENCH????? Gosh, any of those would make a whole lot of sense...........

90% of the teachers and professors in 90% of schools teach 90% of their curriculum in English, and that percentage gets even higher as you move into specialized areas like law and medicine. Conversely, the reason so many people in the border states are against this is because their schools are getting clobbered by the need to be bilingual across the board.

A requirement to learn English here isn't some kind of America Uber Alles super-nationalism, at least not coming from Kennedy, and definitely not from me. The silver bullet for people newly arrived here is the ability to better themselves through education. They raise themselves up, and provide better lives for their children than they had themselves. It has been this way since my great-grandfather came here as a despised Irishman. His son became a lawyer, and his grandson became an extraordinary lawyer.

I live in Boston, home of Harvard and MIT. Both these schools, in the last 15 years, have had a massive influx of Asian and Indian students coming from overseas. They were not required to learn English, of course, but the point is that they were able to somewhere along the line, thus affording them the opportunity to study at two of the best school we have.

These days, in Boston, one of the greatest centers of medicine to be found, it is incredibly common to be treated by an Indian physician in the emergency room. Many have deep accents, which means they came from one of the poorest countries on the planet. Thanks to their mastery of English, they received their medical degree and are interning in some of the best hospitals in the world.

If people are required to learn English, a whole world of opportunity currently denied them will open wide. The requirement aspect seems draconian, to be sure, but the advantages of learning the most common language used in the educational system brings generational benefits across the board.

high school.

for local governments.

Porque hay más que trescientos millones de personas en el hemisferio occidental que hablan español. ¿Sabias eso?

y hablan otra lengua distinta al ingles? no existen? Hispanos no somos especiales... todo el mundo tiene los mismos derechos.

Tá inventando aquele, injeta no meu discurso cara.

??

nicht sagte ich den. Sagt du das, weil du nicht verstanden, was ich an erster Stelle sagte. Capiche?

I am truly sorry others do not get your valid points. We would be a much more 'advanced' country, socially and technologically, if we could speak multiple languages as individuals... and it is entirely possible, but it takes hard work. (For those who poo poo this I suggest you look at countries where people speak multiple languages-better yet, go live in one for a while)

it would be good if school offered foreign language classes at younger ages. Unfortunately, it seems like schools are frightened into thinking that at younger ages, kids aren't fit to learn much.

But I don't see how anyone can function in the US without English, unless you live in a very segregated area and have litttle interaction outside of tthaat limited area. Usually, I have noticed that to be the case mostly with seniors that immigrated here late in life supported by their sons or daughters (and even in thos e cases, it is vital they learn some English for emergency situations).

After all, they aren't on "The Test."

I've known LEGAL immigrants who brought their parents here. Some of the parents will never learn English. But they have that right.

We need to worry about the NEXT generation being educated. And some cheap or free ESL classes for the CURRENT generation would definitely help.

There are some folks who will deny its logic no matter what.

I guess it's okay for us to spend millions upon millions to accomodate those who speak Spanish -- even requiring it for many jobs -- but not vice versa where the Spanish-speaking immigrant community is concerned? Funny that.

people need to know enough of the predominant language to participate in civic discussion and to work within the greater society.

English is the language we all speak equally poorly. It is the common means of communication among all the groups making up the US.


You can't have a common civic life without a common language.

language to be Eniglish. I believe this was because of the schools having many Hispanic-only speaking children moving into the system..
I think. I may have the "why" part wrong..so don't quote me..and I do not have the link..I lived there at the time and do recall the news carried it all the time. I recall a big to-do over it, until it finally had to be settled by legislation.

Unless the law has changed since then..English is the official language of Colorado.

Sounds like common sense to me.

"What difference could it make if someone does or doesn't know English?"

Well, if new citizens could read and write English, they could...

Have a hell of a better chance of finding work
Fill out the myriad forms they'd no doubt encounter
Write letters to their representatives and local newspapers
Tell the 911 operator what the problem is
Check the ingredients of the foods they eat
Navigate freeways better
Vote with confidence on referenda
Use libraries to their fullest potential
Understand the deductions on their paycheque

Fish in a barrel.

How about explaining what the benefits are in sticking to their mother tongue, and how those offset the "disadvantages" of learning English?

Common sense would dictate that if you want to be successful, let alone a citizen, you should learn the language.

Kanienkehaka, Navaho, Oneida, Potawatomi... ad infinitum.

After all, the people who spoke those languages were here first (and still are).

and its beautiful language too.
Lakota is a bit familiar to me, I could not speak it well though..but grew up around some who did..It is fascinating and spiritual.
I have much respect for the Native American culture, and am glad the generations are being taught to carry it on.
Its beautiful.

to the requirement.

Every nationality shoud be bi-lingual..European schools teach four or more languages by the time kids are out of high school..
Many languages are easier to learn since they are closely related.

taught at least one other language. It's easier to learn at a younger age, and being bilingual can certainly have its advantages for people.

It's a good thing.

Because there are over 20 countries packed into an area about the same size as the United States.

If seperate sections of this country spoke different languages, it would be taught in schools. As it is, one does not need to know three other languages to move around in this country.

Of course, we can also factor in the costs to, say, small rural schools to have to hire a cadre of foreign language teachers, but why insert such realities into the discussion?

unless you never want to work with, help, or get to know Native Americans. Knowing a few words may save your life one day. ;)

skills in a predominantly English speaking country.

There are more practical reasons to learn an array of other languages as well.

languages too, for practical reasons... like Farsi, Arabic, Mandrin, et al.

It makes sense to push English as the dominant language (because it is), but I am not keen on legislation to force the issue - make it the law of the land.

Now, I do think republicans should be forced to take English exams before voting. :D

:hi: (thank you very much in Lakota) ;)

Makes me proud to be from the Dakotas.

or at least I try. :D

My favorite language is music! ;)

"Re me do -do sol!" :D

other languages?

:popcorn:

Others have taken a harder line and ended up at war, for example.

I know we can't learn every language, but my point is English speaking U.S. citizens are behind much of the world in this area, and it will really hurt us some day.

Wouldn't it be helpful for thousands of Americans to be able to speak Farsi or Arabic or Mandrin or Russian?

:popcorn:

:D :rofl:

I agree, people need English here. But when I lived in other countries, no one was hard on me for not being able to speak their language(s). As long as I tried, people were VERY helpful... and it led to some very fun and exciting learning sessions. ;) :D

:popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

:D



edit: and me! :D

:popcorn: :popcorn:

:wow:

:popcorn:

http://news.globalfreepress.com/gallery/index.php?cat=10002

I just made these bumper stickers (still drafts, I have color versions too and some alternate images of Bushler). Any suggestions?

He might put it on the Home Page.

:popcorn:

Presuming you mean Xingua-wa (my pinyin kinda sucks).

dat's what I meant! :D

C'est le défaut de Louis!!!

"Putonghua."

Kungtung-wa (or Kungtung-hua) is how I was taught, but I think that's Shanghai dialect.

"Guangdong-hua." Your version looks as if it may be the Shanghai version of the same word.

it'd be to their benefit to learn english.
it would help there transition into a new society and country and make life a lil easier for them.
wouldnt be a communication gap anywhere they went.
americans are already taught spanish , so *shrugs*

It is easier to get along in this country if you speak English. It's really a benefit for the immigrants to learn English.

However, as a special ed teacher, I do understand how difficult it is for some immigrants to learn English.

....no one is asking for 'mastery' from all.

I know you 'know' what I'm saying here....

learning English is going to be close to impossible.

Illiterate in their native language. Sad really, especially if they are unable to return to any type of work they already know how to do, and need to be retrained (I'm a vocational rehab counselor). An almost impossible situaiton for them. They can't do hard physical labor any more because they are injured/physically limited, but school is out for them, and on the job training opportunities for folks who are illiterate even in their own language, not to mention not having any grasp of English, make it so difficult for them and for me to try to help them.

Having proficiency in English is an extremely useful skill in the U.S.

We have no official language in this country and that's the way it should remain.

Kennedy is an idiot.

I'd like to add onto my post...here...as looking through this thread there seems to be way too many people supporting this idea. You all must live in White Surburbia or else I don't understand.

I'm from the city...schoolmates of mine's parents didn't speak english...just hmong. Therefore...their parents can't vote because they can't speak english? Ridiculous. They have their independent businesses and raise their familiy well...yet you all want to deny them citizenship?

What about Chinatown? There's plenty of people who speak no english there as well and are contributing members to society.

I don't even think Bush is stupid enough to suggest this crap.

One must read and write English before he or she can obtain Citizenship! I had to prove, I can read and write English before, I was given Citizenship. Why do people accuse someone when they know nothing about the law?

And I sure as hell don't live in white suburbia, nor am I white myself.

I would agree with him. Why so defensive? This is the United States of America:eyes:

It's the predominant language of this country. However, when I was younger (birth-11 years old), I lived in a predominately hispanic area (Union City, NJ). I think it has more Cubans than Cuba. So I used to be able to understand Spanish really well. I sucked at speaking it, but I understood it. Once we moved to the suburbs, I kind of lost it. I wish I didn't, but I did. I'm fine with immigrants speaking their native language. However, I feel that if they're going to become a citizen then they should speak the predominate language of whatever country their immigrating to, regardless of whether or not it is an "official" language.

I think pretty much any other country agrees and personally, if I was to immigrate to another country, I would learn their language. I felt like a retard half the time when I was in Italy because I only knew the basics, even though most of them spoke English and I was only there studying. I can't imagine trying to become a citizen of a country when you can't even speak their predominant language.

particular language to keep your job? You work full time and at home to keep up with the work load due to reports that have to be filed. You've been doing this job for over 20 years and already have several Masters Degrees.
You've been required to take additional college courses in recent years to stay qualified, paid for out of your pocket when you don't get paid enough for what you do anyway and now, you will be required to take Spanish to keep your job...your dime and your time. BTW, this is so the state does not have to pay an interpreter.

My sister has been a Special Education teacher for over 20 years. She teaches children with IQ's above 60, but not high enough to mainstream. The children are taught English and pick it up very well. Their parents do not learn English and she has to give in-person progress reports to the parents. She has a grasp of basic Spanish due to working with the kids. She does not know enough to communicate their progress to the parents and one interpreter has been used for several years for more than one school in the area.


If you WANT to learn a second, third or fourth language......great and good for you.
Being told you MUST to keep your job just doesn't seem right to me.

The Kennedy bill is pretty damn generous, aguably too generous for those that have broken the law already (though it's still better than the Bush or Sensenbrenner plans).

You must be unaware of the requirements for English language and civics proficiecy for naturalization. It is nothing new and is not too difficult to pass. I took it a while back when I became naturalized. They literally ask you to write out a sentence and read a sentence from a piece of paper. And those requirements can be waived if you are a senior citizen, or have a disability.

it's the difference between being able to communicate with citizens of the country you're migrating to, vs not being able to communicate with those citizens.

for citizenship.

I had to pass a test in Dutch for my Dutch nationality.

DemEx

I don't get the big deal. If you're moving to a country to work, you have to show that you can actually do the job you say you're going there to do. If you can't speak the language, that's evidence you won't be able to.

Certainly, there is sometimes a racist agenda behind the "learn English" thing, but I don't see it in the case of what Kennedy's saying.

in a country without understanding the language.
When I was an undergraduate, my landlady was an old Chinese lady who was married to a local Chinese who was bilingual. They first lived in the rural parts here and ran a business. She learnt the local dialect but never learnt English.
They migrated after they sold the business but returned home during winter. After he died she decided to become a US citizen. This lady had never read anything in English. Her husband did all the paperwork all her life. I helped to prepare her for the test required for citizenship (a very challenging task) and could not fathom that she lived here forty-five years, spent ten years in the US, but never made an effort to learn English. I still think she was lazy and indifferent.
I don't think Kennedy is asking too much.

I didn't start out speaking spanish.It was a necessity,as about 50% of my patients don't speak english.I work with many people who have come here from other countries,and learned english in order to succeed.If you want to keep a whole segment of society repressed,then don't require them to meet the standards you require of all other foreign emigres.Your implication is that people who've come from pakistan,ghana,germany,kosovo,india,china,mexico are supposed to be able to communicate without some common language?

Why wouldn't you want to learn English if you move to an English-speaking country?

Cantonese, Mandarin, Wu, Min, Xiang ...

so they can function in the workforce and not be supported by the government for the rest of their lives.

There is a long period of time granted for an immigrant to make a good faith effort to learn some basics of English and civics.

(I learn languages for fun, that is), and I've tutored immigrants, and I see nothing wrong with the Kennedy proposal.

Part of what keeps immigrants marginalized is not knowing English.

I am NOT in favor of immigrants doing what my Norwegian grandparents did and giving up their native language even at home, so that my father and his sisters grew up only understanding a bit of Norwegian, not speaking it. I love it when children are raised bilingually, as my grandmother was by her German immigrant parents. In my opinion, too many immigrants fail to maintain the heritage language among their children.

But I am in favor of immigrants learning English. Most do, especially if they're young, and even among the old and illiterate, there are ways. (See my posts above.)

I don't know what RGBolen is going on about, since no one is saying that immigrants should stop speaking their language at home or with other speakers of their language out in public. THAT would be objectionable.

But basic (REAL basic) English proficiency has been a requirement for citizenship for years. In every country that I can think of, you have to know the predominant language or at least one of the predominant languages, to become a citizen. (A fellow translator recently became a Japanese citizen. He speaks Japanese, of course, but he even had to adopt a Japanese NAME.)

The main obstacle is that everyone is eager to have immigrants learn English, but nobody wants to pay for classes. I like the Israeli approach. Before you can even settle in Israel, you have to go through an intensive Hebrew language course at government expense. People from all over the world, many of them illiterate (from Ethiopia or Yemen, for example), have gone through these courses and developed basic communication skills.

We could offer free intensive English courses to immigrants, too, but it's more fun for right wingers (especially monolingual right wingers) to complain about immigrants.

In a nation that you weren't born in, it is best, both for yourself and the country that you are immigrating to, that you learn the language of the land. Makes sense to me, and I believe it has been a requirement for a number of years now.

... But it might be suggested that a working knowledge of the english language might help in assimilation.

I think a common language is necessary.

as part of the naturalization process. It has been sixteen years since Bush,Sr. did away with stricter immigration
rules and look at the ensuing chaos. You now have an immigation policy that is simply a free for all. Instead of
a controlled process that made sure the new people assimilated to our country - it made a desire to be here as the only
requirement for entry. This is suicidal.

Without the naturalization process you have people coming here with no stated intent to become Americans. They have
a stated desire to make money. Sorry, but that is not good enough to support the long term stability of our society
economically or psychologically.

And I am sick to death of anyone who challenges the free for all, illegal immigration situation being called a racist
or worse. Advocationg for a structured, intelligent PROCESS to our nations immigration is sound business for us all
in the long run and has nothing to do with the numbers of current immigrants who happed to be Mexican.

many jobs are unavailable to native-born, English-speaking Americans.

Peruse the help wanted ads - "must speak Spanish" or "Spanish helpful." When you have enough Spanish-speaking immigrants in your neck of the woods, you will find your job opportunities decrease if you don't speak Spanish. Perhaps English-speaking Americans should all learn Spanish if we want to work. We allow immigration, we allow immigrants to work, we allow then to pay into and collect social security, we allow them Medicare and Medicaid. Do you think we might ask them to learn to speak to us?

It's getting harder and harder in South Florida, Miami in particular, if you are not Hispanic. Interestingly, we have almost as many Haitians as Cubans/Hispanics. I haven't seen many help-wanted ads that said "must speak Creole," though.

In my opinion, a country that does not have a unifying language may lose its identity, eventually. and break up into Ethnic areas, in competition with one another. How many of us really thinks it would be wise to immigrate to any other country on earth with absolutely no knowledge of that country's language and expect that country's institutions to accommodate them?

she was Dutch and he was from Chile.....they 'mostly' lived in the Netherlands, but he learned to speak Dutch and she learned Spanish (their English was 'good', but limited) ....anywayz, they went to the US on vacation and returned with the comment, "and of course in Miami it was no problem b/c everyone spoke Spanish!"

If I were going to migrate to another country you can be damn sure I would learn the language. We have grown too accommodating in this country as far as our citizenship requirements go. I should be able to drive through any town in the USA and be able to read road signs, store signs, billboards etc. I have no problem with having writing in the predominant language of that area too, but have some respect for the country that has taken you in! People wonder WHY there is a lack of communication.

in the 2000 election to make english the official language of the state?

My grandfather came from Czechoslovakia back in the 1920s and never learned English, just a few words. It was a hindrance for him and his world was very small. Heck, I could barely talk to him except through my mom who was an only child. After she died 25 years ago, my communication with my grandfather was pretty much nil. Yeah, maybe I should have learned Czech, though it would have opened a whole world up for him to learn English.

I was 15 years old. We moved to rural NC in the middle of August. I had no knowledge of English, except for simple words like hi and hello. I had exactly 1 week before I began high school. I don't know how I did it, but eventually I managed to learn English well enough to go to college. Now, I have no problems with it and I have retained my Italian (I also know French and Spanish, by the way).

Yes, basic knowledge of English is necessary to become a naturalized U.S. citizen, although there are age exceptions.

we have a construction project here....MAJOR construction project for our roads lasting 6 years. one of the requirements was that you had to speak spanish...not bilingual....not english....but spanish

walked into a store here...mexican girl could not understand my deli order....it consisted of potato salad....

the anouncements over the loud speaker,in this same store are in spanish...

am I in a border city...not at all.........DENVER COLORADO


you want to live here...make an attempt to speak the language. I don't think that is too much too ask when you want to reap the benefits of that country.


I am borrowing a quote from a response on another thread: (see # 10)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x2538595

"In the first place we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin. But this is predicated upon the man's becoming in very fact an American, and nothing but an American...
There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn't an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag, and this excludes the red flag, which symbolizes all wars against liberty and civilization, just as much as it excludes any foreign flag of a nation to which we are hostile...We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language...and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people."
--Theodore Roosevelt, 1919

ever consider that maybe ted kennedy is a smart man and knows whereof he speaks

because i'm sure if you want to create a miserable balkanized mess where no one understands each other and everyone is isolated into their own communities by the language barrier if you work hard enough it can be arranged

english is the language of business, if you really want someone to have hope of being something besides a damn berry picker for all his life, you would want him to learn it

of course if the point is to have a helpless slave who won't know his rights and who will work for nothing forever, fine, keep him ignorant and in the dark with limited options

be a great idea for people to learn.

Parents who don't speak English have difficulty dealing with the outside world, especially when their children go to school. They are at a disadvantage when it comes to furthering themselves in job situations as well.

Children of parents who don't speak English, and who only encounter English in a classroom are at a severe disadvantage in school. Fortunately, children will learn to *speak* a second language very quickly; however, it takes a child 5-7 years to be able to LEARN using that second language. If they've entered school in Kindergarten, by the time they're able to learn subject matter as well as their native peers do, they'll be in 5th - 7th grade.

What's your solution? Do you want all legal documents, road signs, etc. in the United States to be in 200 different languages? Should everyone in the US have to learn a new language every time someone else emigrates here?

You move to France, you learn French. You move to Italy, you learn Italian. You move to Korea, you learn Korean. It's that simple. And in the US - whether you like the history of how this came to be or not - the dominant language is English. I think the US should make learning English a requirement for citizenship and its official language.

just my 2 cents.

I'm seeing better English from a lot of immigrants I know, than I am from the President!

nm

I wonder if this is about 2006 and outdoing the Thuggery.

Very confusing.