These are not "aliens". These are human beings.

I wonder..I really do wonder. If these people were white...would so many be insistant on referring to them as aliens?

My children were born to undocumented Mexican workers....ALIENS as so many here like to smear them.

Are my children ALIENS too??

This is one point that I will never let go of. Labeling a human being as an alien..in this day and age...is sickening and disgusting and 100% WRONG.

it's disrespectful....and marginalizing...

of Roswell.

Too much sci fi to use the word "alien" anymore.

and illegals "illegal aliens".

Just government vocabulary.

Now aliens is assumed to be extraterrestrials.

They are therefore Alien to the United States. It's an accurate word. I don't know how it works out to be a smear.

I suppose it does distinguish between those who want to cheat and lie their way into this country and those who come in honestly. Which is a judgement. But an accurate one, in my opinion.

Assuming your children have been naturalized (don't know exactly how that works) they are no longer Aliens.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

1) a person who is not a citizen of the country
2) in the United States any person born in another country to parents who are not American and who has not become a naturalized citizen.

born to, and were, the wrong kind of people if your parents didn't have a marriage license. Now it's not having green cards.

It is the word, it has a set definition. Here it is. If you have made it a negative word, I am sorry. I call things what they are, not things that make me feel better. My dog is a Bitch. People in this world are retarded. You can not make up a meaning to a word all by yourself. My best friend, who was until about 4 months ago was called a resident Alien.

a·li·en Audio pronunciation of "ALIEN" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (l-n, lyn)
adj.

1. Owing political allegiance to another country or government; foreign: alien residents.
2. Belonging to, characteristic of, or constituting another and very different place, society, or person; strange. See Synonyms at foreign.
3. Dissimilar, inconsistent, or opposed, as in nature: emotions alien to her temperament.


n.

1. An unnaturalized foreign resident of a country. Also called noncitizen.
2. A person from another and very different family, people, or place.
3. A person who is not included in a group; an outsider.
4. A creature from outer space: science fiction about an invasion of aliens.
5. Ecology. An organism, especially a plant or animal, that occurs in or is naturalized in a region to which it is not native.


tr.v. Law a·li·ened, a·li·en·ing, a·li·ens

To transfer (property) to another; alienate.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=ALIEN

Change it from "alien" to "exalted person without so-called American passport issued by occupying gringo government"

Enjoy your stay, btw.

Alien means an outsider, not an little green man from Mars.

Undocumented workers most certainly do come from outside this country.

It's just that the popular usage of the word "alien" has changed in the many decades since the term "illegal alien" came into use.

I'm emigrating to Japan next Monday. And I will be an alien, albeit a legal one, and one who has gone to the trouble of becoming fluent in the language and doing all the paperwork.



So, no, "alien" is not a slur, but the connotations you cite are there, so "illegal immigrant" is preferable to me. I wouldn't use undocumented worker, since we are talking about their immigration status, not their occupation. Their illegality in being here has nothing to do with whether or not they are working.

aliens, foreigners, guest workers, temporary workers, migrant workers, immigrants - all of them can be used with positive or negative connotations, varied by user.

Yes they are people and some of them really are here to build a better life, but speaking for Texas, many are here to hedge their bets. They're earning money here but not paying taxes on it, or in Mexico, and so the poor economies that they're running from are being recreated everywhere that undocumented immigrants accumulate.

The solution is make them tax paying citizens, but the other solution is to establish a line in the sand. I don't think that line should be here in America at the hospital though, I think it should be at the border.

And if we do or can offer "amnesty" and citizenship to those who are already here, what do we do with the ones who steadfastly refuse to become documented? Putting our heads in the sand encourages more of the same, and at some point the other side of every law is enforcement.

There is an appropriate and humane approach, but at the end of the day the problem really starts and ends at the borders, and is much bigger than just a state problem.

They pay the same sales taxes as the rest of us and they pay property taxes either on homes they buy or as a share of the rent on wherever they live. In some cases, there have even been scams where they were told their were having "taxes" taken out of their pay and the owner was just pocketing the money. The "they don't pay taxes" thing is nonsense.

And scam or not on their withholding, the income tax wasn't being paid to the government. Anyway, not trying to spread disinformation (or anything) -

Granted most of them would probably not pay income tax after filing, but some of them make a great deal of money and unreported income tax over time adds up in the margins.

I'm for making them real people - without a doubt. The sooner they are "in" the door, the sooner they can organize legally for wage control and start building real lives with real jobs without fear of a speeding ticket or being busted by their lawn mowing client's neighbor (sorry for stereotype, you know what I mean).

and our leaders in Washington are responsible. I'm sorry to hear that your distraught, it's not personal for me if that helps any. I grew up in Yuma back in the early 50's. and all my friends were illegals. I didn't understand at the time, i just new them as my friends.

So please except my apology to you and your children upfront, i have nothing else to offer but my understanding of your situation.

1. Owing political allegiance to another country or government. 2. Belonging to, characteristic of, or derived from another country, place, society, or person.

It doesn't make me feel less of a human being.

not "from outer space"

I'm married to an alien :)

I have no trouble with that word, because that's the legal term for someone who is not a U.S. citizen by birth or naturalization.

Of course, I am also a legal alien, having entered the U.S. upon inspection by an Immigration Official and with the proper permission (visa) to enter and remain in the U.S.

The term 'alien' is not a pejorative. It's just a legal term.

The first step in finding a solution that serves the common good on immigration (or anything else for that matter) is to look at the problem from a new perspective -- one that is grounded in some basic truths and moral principles.

I've taken a stab at outlining such an approach and would appreciate your thoughts on it.

Controlling our borders isn't really about control; it's about values

"Controlling our borders" means more than erecting barriers or patrolling. Controlling our borders is about making a commitment to act in a manner that is consistent with our values.

When we set employment standards we are expressing our values. Those standards reflect our belief that all human beings have a right to be treated fairly.

As long as we allow ANY workers to be exploited within our borders, we disgrace ourselves. As long as we turn a blind eye to the violations committed by people who enter illegally or remain after their visa expires, we demonstrate hypocrisy.

Guest worker programs have a place, but too often; such programs have been used to give employers a ticket to pay substandard wages and subject workers to unsafe conditions. We cannot tolerate programs that set different standards for "guests."

To be consistent with American values, we need to "just say no" to the exploitation workers -- documented or not. Continuing to permit predatory employers to operate within our borders will only drive more and more of Us and "Them" into poverty.

Controlling our borders with the stroke of a pen

Building a wall takes time. We don't need to wait. We can effectively control immigration with the stroke of a pen by passing legislation that includes two basic elements:

• Going after predatory employers.


• Offering a path to citizenship for whistleblowers and their families.

Specifically:

• Expand the Fair Labor Standards Act (FLSA) to cover every business and individual employer, whether they employ documented or undocumented workers.
  Conditions and terms of employment must meet FLSA and safety requirements for any wage earner who meets the criteria that would require reporting under IRS rules (e.g, the IRS threshold this year is $1500 for most of work).


• Criminalize predatory employment practices.
  Predatory employers who are violating FLSA, violating OSHA standards, and evading taxes must be subject to prosecution and mandatory prison time.


• Whistleblower immigration amnesty.
  Clear processes for workers to report predatory employers and maintain anonymity throughout the course of investigation. Whistleblowers who are undocumented (whether an individual or a group) are offered a path to citizenship.


• Increase resources and create special units as required
  Affected agencies would include the Dept of Labor Wage and Hour Division, Dept of Justice, OSHA, IRS, and INS. The Wage and Hour Division is probably the logical agency to oversee the handling of charges against predatory employers, including preliminary investigation, referral to Justice for investigation and prosecution, referral to IRS, and coordination with INS to process undocumented whistleblowers and other undocumented workers.

Making implicit costs explicit

The harmful effects of supporting an underground economy are costly to the nation. When we "just say no" to the exploitation workers, some implicit costs will be made explicit. Americans have a choice. We can invest our tax dollars to our common benefit, or bear the costs -- both moral and monetary -- of exploiting other human beings.

If we choose make predatory employers the prime target, we can ensure the survival of vital "underground economy" sectors by providing transitional supports. We can offset increased costs of goods or services to the working class through tax credits. (Should be part of shifting the costs of citizenship from those who benefit the least from our common infrastructure to those who benefit the most.)

Radically changing the rules of the game

If predatory employers faced serious penalties, and the undocumented workers they are exploiting benefited from blowing the whistle, we would significantly increase the risk of exploiting workers.

The threat of exposure and prosecution alone will be sufficient for many to revamp their operations. In some sectors, the predators may simply move operations offshore. In others, predators may be forced out of business. As noted above, it may serve the public interest to provide transition assistance or start up assistance for replacement businesses.

Undoubtedly, a significant percent of undocumented workers would continue to evade detection, but employers would be far less likely to exploit them. If the workers are making a fair wage, the "race to the bottom" has a lower limit and the negative effect on wages is reduced.

We have a right enforce immigration law and deport violators

There are situations in which our interests are best served by providing an alternative to deportation. Nevertheless, if it does not serve a public interest to provide an alternative we should not hesitate to deport those who violate immigration laws.

We have a right to enforce our immigration laws. When we shift our focus to predatory employers, we are not forfeiting that right.

Offering legal status to whistleblowers serves us in two vital ways -- it deters predatory employers and it gives authorities vital resources "on the ground" who are motivated to expose those who are not deterred.

Targeting predatory employers creates a new class of unemployable undocumented workers If we do not institute a program that offers an opportunity to achieve legal (employable) status to those who are displaced, the deportation and support costs are likely to rise to intolerable levels.

If we decide that minimizing competition for jobs is worth the costs associated with deportation, the number of families who are offered legal status could be limited by entering those who qualify a "lottery" of sorts. It may seem harsh to allow chance to determine who stays and who goes, but deportation must remain the default consequence of breaking our immigration laws.

First things first

We can't begin to make progress until we impeach Bush and Cheney and purge the new American fascists from our public institutions ((Impeachment First)). Only then can we effectively engage in the messy -- but democratic -- process of dealing with this and other critical problems.

Conclusion

Our underground economy makes the United States very attractive to people who are struggling to survive in their own countries. We can change the dynamics right now and virtually eliminate the underground economy, and in the process, minimize the incentive to enter this country unlawfully.

Saying no to the exploitation of workers is central to controlling our borders. Radically changing the rules of the game makes other aspects of controlling immigration more manageable, but it does not eliminate the need for them. We still need to do a better job of tracking the foreign nationals who come here to work, study, or visit. We still need to make our border with Mexico as impenetrable as possible, while weighing the costs against the benefits.

We cannot continue to hypocritically turn a blind eye to violations of our immigration laws or tolerate the exploitation of workers within our borders. As is often the case, committing to enacting and enforcing laws that that reflect our values is not just the right thing to do, it ultimately serves the common good.

It's got some good things to say about this.

Plus, it's pretty damn good.

Great flick.

I am shocked, just shocked at the degree of lack of understanding on this issue.


The Republicans sure know how to make us sing their song don't they?

the second word)? I live in L.A. Believe me, this group of people are the most hard-working and nice group of people I have ever encountered. I grew up on a farm and I respect hard work when I see it. So everyone not from L.A. needs to recognize a core truth: this group of people (however you label them) work their asses off for meagre wages and remain for the most part extraordinarily even tempered in the face of degrading treatment.

In the sense of "foreigner" or "something/body from somewhere else", it's the ORIGINAL usage of the word (latin).

Its usage in the sense of "martians" is what's recent.

From the online etymology dictionary (etymology is the study of word history and origins btw):

alien (adj.) Look up alien at Dictionary.com
1340, "strange, foreign," from O.Fr. alien, from L. alienus "of or belonging to another," adj. form of alius "(an)other" (see alias). Meaning "of another planet" first recorded 1944 in science fiction writing; the noun in this sense is from 1953. The noun sense of "foreigner" is first attested 1330. An alien priory (1502) is one owing obedience to a mother abbey in a foreign country.

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=alien&searchmode=none


Don't get me wrong - I'm second to none in my belief that racism is a large part of the anti-mexican stuff we've been seeing lately. I'm just saying that "alien" isn't part of that.

And the intent.

There is no reason to be calling human beings aliens. None.

I'm an Ausländer, but no one would DARE refer to me as such to my face more than once. :evilgrin:

finally connect the dots.

And..uh...NO...last time I checked political correctness was the LAST thing neocons were concerned with.

They accuse anyone who believes that human beings should be treated as human beings of being politically correct.

Wait a minute...that sounds like...well...you.

they're human beings too, but I'm not sure anyone had been disputing that. I think your aptness to get offended at the term might lie in an inaccurate personal definition of it. In order to assist, I provide the following:

a·li·en ( P ) Pronunciation Key (l-n, lyn)
adj.
1. Owing political allegiance to another country or government; foreign: alien residents.
2. Belonging to, characteristic of, or constituting another and very different place, society, or person; strange. See Synonyms at foreign.
3. Dissimilar, inconsistent, or opposed, as in nature: emotions alien to her temperament.

n.
1. An unnaturalized foreign resident of a country. Also called noncitizen.
2. A person from another and very different family, people, or place.
3. A person who is not included in a group; an outsider.
4. A creature from outer space: science fiction about an invasion of aliens.
5. Ecology. An organism, especially a plant or animal, that occurs in or is naturalized in a region to which it is not native.

As is extremely clear, there are several strict interpretive definitions of the term that are absolutely accurate within the context they were used in.

you're thinking.

These are people. Why can't you just call them people?

It's not really that hard once you get used to it.

immigration status, does it?

When discussing immigration status these are pertinent words.

"undocumented person" is preferable - it sounds like their humanity has to be documented, rather than their national status.

perfect either.

Undocumented Worker to Undocumented Person.

But that's me.

these people only cross the border to lay around and have babies..I figured it would start a flame war and I didn't want that.

You have been very...non..flaming (for lack of a better word. How ironic.) of me and I appreciate that. Cheers.

The relevancy was in whether or not it is wrong to also refer to them as aliens. I think I have shown that it is in fact completely appropriate to refer to them as such, and that doing so in no way demeans or diminishes their status as human beings, since the definition is not a slang one or derogatory one, but merely just quite simply the damn definition.

We'll just agree to disagree on this.
No flames.

Very kind reply and closure to the debate. I wanted to add that if this is a personal issue to you, then I was under the wrong impression to begin with when replying. What I would say now, is though referring to them as aliens is not offensive on its face as it is the main meaning of the definition (outer space beings are 4th on the definition list), just like many other words the capability for it to be offensive lies in the context of the speaker. If used accurately, passively and harmlessly I'm not sure I would agree with someone taking offense. However, if it was used by the speaker in such a manner and tone that portrayed it as demeaning, then the person hearing it could absolutely be right in being offended. It is much like if I passed a group of women talking and said innocently to my wife "women", with the intent being "hey, look, there's a group of women". However if I passed the group and said to my wife in a descending tone "women", with the intent and tone being "(rolling my eyes), sighhhh, friggin women", that would be sexist, rude and offensive.

So yes, if the reason for your argument was that it has been referred to you and your family in a condescending tone and manner, then yes, it was demeaning and I apologize for not defending that plight. :)

beings for a lot longer than whatever other thing you're thinking of.

I'm thinking of using the terms human, person, people.

Is that so outrageous?

or immigrant status. "Alien" does. It's a word used to describe humans.

As Sting will tell you "I’m an alien I’m a legal alien / I’m an englishman in New York."

Do you think it means he's not human?

As for Sting being non-human...the jury is still out.

I honestly don't see why the word is so upsetting to you. You seemto think it means something other than its definition.

My children are not aliens. Their birthparents are not aliens.

Alien is a term that is used, in my experience, by people who judge my family to be unworthy.

Alien is used by people who want to hurt and judge. The Rush Limbaugh's of the world. The people who accuse me of being politically correct because I prefer that my family is not referred to as aliens.

That's why it upsets me. That's as clear as I can make it.

implications in the word that I just don't think are there.

Alien just means what it means, and I don't think it's insulting at all, personally. I'm not trying to make you change your mind, or discredit your own feelings. I just want you to know that there may be many people who don't mean anything the least bit insulting by it.

And make it illegal to give illegals healthcare?
Or not?

After learning that it offended a significant chunk of their readership.

The person who is being addressed by the word "alien" or the person using the word "alien"?

I find it kind of close-minded when people who are doing the addressing are the ones stating that it is not an offensive word.

I learned a similar lesson myself on DU about the confederate flag. I am a non-black who grew up in the south and was used to seeing the confederate flag as a kid. This was when Miami was much more southern than it is now.

And although I know the KKK flaunts the confederate flag, I also know that many people who defend the flag are just proud southerners that are not necessarily racist.

But then someone pointed out that if it offends black people, regardless of the intentions of those who wave the flag, then it is offensive. So perhaps I should be a bit more sensitive.

Another example was over the word "homo". I had no idea that "homo" was offensive. I just thought that it was short for homosexual. But then I was informed by a well-known DU lesbian that it is offensive to some gay people. And even though I argued about it at first, insisting that it is just a shortened version of homosexual, she made me realize that if the person on the receiving end of the label is offended, then it is an offensive word.

So I no longer defend the confederate flag, even though I know many people who take pride in it are not racist. And I know longer use the word "homo" to describe a gay person.

And now seeing how so many people insist that there is nothing wrong with the word alien, and that they will continue to use it no matter what, I am thankful that I was able to see the pain that I may have caused people. And that I was able to put a stop to it.

And you certainly sound like a very compassionate Democrat.

It is a comfort to know that we are not alone out here.

In legal terms, alien does not mean extraterrestrial.

This is, without a doubt, the silliest immigration thread yet, and the competition for that honor is pretty steep. Congratulations!

So far, we've managed to carry on a respectful conversation...all day..about this.

And now you come in to crap all over everyone. Thanks.


And, actually, I have never been a sci-fi fan...so I don't get the alien=scifi connection. Perhaps you could explain it to me?

Oh please--people have been schooling you all day on what an inane, half-baked attempt at an argument this is.

:evilgrin:

And it really pisses me off when they call me with some boiler-room investment scam.

Fuck, I'd rather talk to some nice guy from India who claims his name is Steve.

destroy the Earth. I don't like the word "aliens" used as a description either. Doesn't sound very nice.