Everyone realizes illegal immigrants don't pay taxes on income...

right? So when you are talking about the topic...keep in mind they are not paying into SS, medicare, or fed. taxes.

example, or all those xian charities?

computer that is strictly his. please provide a link to that information.

they had a piece on it not too long ago somewhere

You have heard of Bill Gates right? The richest man in the world...

I DO know who bill gates is, so quit the snarky BS and answer my question, assuming you actually could.

even you, in your hubristic certitude, have heard of that. we don't take mere assertions as PROOF here, and most people are willing to provide links to back up their claims, and understand why it is necessary to do so. Even a proven track record of veracity and accuracy is not sufficient to override the need to provide links, information, PROOF.
try again, tex, and remember that you are playing with the grown-ups here, so stop throwing little hissy fits about being asked to back up your claims. otherwise, you should go take a nice, long time-out.

need to do research for folks...come on geez!

claims? Common dude show us YOUR research? Waiting ..... yes we are! :rofl: :eyes:

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data to back up my assertions...just don't call them BS unless you can prove its BS.

merely asked you to provide PROOF. you have clearly indicated that you do NOT know the rules, so do us all a favour and retire quietly to a corner until you do know.

You post a statement with no facts, links, claim to your assertion and then you disappear from the thread. Others here provide evidence against your claim but ...... your still no-where to be found. Why do you think that is? Whatever dude. :eyes:

http://news.com.com/2061-10805_3-6034343.html

oh you non-believers

.... that I've got your attention .... :evilgrin: ..... where is the evidence, facts, link, to the initial BULLSHIT comment that you stated in your original post? On the immigration issue? I didn't think so. You ain't got one on that do you? Please enlighten us with some sources now that you've learned how to put 'links' in these threads. :eyes: We're waiting. :rofl:

If you disagree with the taxes discussion then state why...I don't have to provide a link for something as common knowledge as this.

BULLSHITTING your way through it.......... I've done my homework on the issue, go to thread #63 and learn something. Your the one posting BULLSHIT claims and not giving any ..... f ..... ing proof of your assertions. I didn't start the thread, YOU DID, now back it up or stop spewing the BULLSHIT. 'Common Knowledge' my ass. Peace. :hi:

PS: We're all still waiting for 'links' to your Immigration claims .... waiting .... waiting ...... :eyes:

instead of providing any valuable discussion items.

here ... http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=791179&mesg_id=791513

VALUABLE DISCUSSION ITEMS? :wtf: is wrong with you? :rofl: ....... Amazing, hopefully someday you can open your eyes, and maybe your mind too.

Still waiting on those links and VALUABLE DISCUSSION ITEMS .... you base your claims on ......waiting ..... waiting ..... :eyes:

Another mind conquered! I knew you'd give up. Ignorance looses every damn time doesn't it? I will leave you with this quote ......

“By the power of truth. I while living, have conquered the universe” Peace. :hi:

and reconsider the bullshit you are trying to pass off as facts.

don't need a rest but thanks.

you blowing "truthiness" out your ass.

You said the illegals pay "NO" taxes and you are clearly wrong. The question is how much DO they pay and does it off-set the services they use. Clearly, you have zero credibility when you say they pay zero.

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You = "they are not paying into SS, medicare, or fed. taxes."

Source = your ass

Links to support = zero

Facts provided by another DUer = 6 to 7 billion paid to the federal coffers

Source = IRS estimate

Conclusion = You are full of it with no credibility in this thread. You should retract you original post and scurry along.

Here is thing we call a "Link". Try it, you might like it.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/05/business/05immigration.html?ex=1270353600&en=78c87ac4641dc383&ei=5090&partner=kmarx

Under what circumstances are illegal immigrants paying payroll taxes? They would have to use a phony SS#, which an honest employer would know about when they filed the employee's W4, right? And a dishonest employer would not file the false W4 - wouldn't they get busted if they did?

the person would have nothing happen to them. You have never seen a corp or a business get sent to jail...

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/05/business/05immigration.html?ex=1270353600&en=78c87ac4641dc383&ei=5090&partner=kmarx


>>>In 2002 alone, the last year with figures released by the Social Security Administration, nine million W-2's with incorrect Social Security numbers landed in the suspense file, accounting for $56 billion in earnings, or about 1.5 percent of total reported wages.

Social Security officials do not know what fraction of the suspense file corresponds to the earnings of illegal immigrants. But they suspect that the portion is significant.

"Our assumption is that about three-quarters of other-than-legal immigrants pay payroll taxes," said Stephen C. Goss, Social Security's chief actuary, using the agency's term for illegal immigration

edit to add:

>>The mismatched W-2's fit like a glove on illegal immigrants' known geographic distribution and the patchwork of jobs they typically hold. An audit found that more than half of the 100 employers filing the most earnings reports with false Social Security numbers from 1997 through 2001 came from just three states: California, Texas and Illinois. According to an analysis by the Government Accountability Office, about 17 percent of the businesses with inaccurate W-2's were restaurants, 10 percent were construction companies and 7 percent were farm operations.

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It is impossible to know exactly how many illegal immigrant workers pay taxes. But according to specialists, most of them do. Since 1986, when the Immigration Reform and Control Act set penalties for employers who knowingly hire illegal immigrants, most such workers have been forced to buy fake ID's to get a job.

Currently available for about $150 on street corners in just about any immigrant neighborhood in California, a typical fake ID package includes a green card and a Social Security card. It provides cover for employers, who, if asked, can plausibly assert that they believe all their workers are legal. It also means that workers must be paid by the book - with payroll tax deductions.

http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F7091FFC345B0C768CDDAD0894DD404482

Or

http://www.truthout.org/cgi-bin/artman/exec/view.cgi/37/10128

If workers with fake IDs have to be paid by the book, what's the benefit for the employer to hire an illegal? They can't very well put $1/hr on your pay stub as your rate of pay, right?

I'm in no way defending the employer - I just don't see where the benefit for them comes from to break the law.

The employer doesn't know the worker is illegal until SSA informs them the name and SS# don't match or the SS# isn't legit. When an employer confronts the employee to clarify/confirm the info, the employee just quits. The employer isn't given the tools to verify before hiring.

:rofl:

Sorry, I had to.

;-)

taxes?

impact that most folks don't think about.

issues at the same time.

It's certainly true that the uber-wealthy and churches don't pay their fair share, but your comments do not address the topic of the thread.

If they use a fake social security card and have taxes witheld then they don't credit for the taxes they paid.

I wish I could remember the source, but I can't.

they are responsible for reporting their own wages to the government and this lets the predatory employer off the hook in keeping track of them. Nice little loop hole our government has created. Huh?

Could you pass me the Vaseline please?

The IC loophole has been exploited for years and years and not just for illegal immigrants.

All across the board employers hire workers under IC status which places the burden of paying the taxes onto the worker... no income tax, no SS tax, no workers' comp, no benefits... makes no difference to them whether or not the worker is legitimately an IC or not. The burden is entirely on the WORKER to dispute their employment status. This is a huge problem not just for illegals or immigrants in general, but John Q. Public American citizen workers. Most people have no idea what the differences are between an employee and an IC, and have no idea who to complain to if they believe they should be hired as an employee rather than an IC.

Ten years ago I was hired three different times by three different companies as a temporary secretary under IC status, which is clearly an employee position. Lucky for me, I knew to go to the IRS to complain, and in all three cases, I was determined to be an employee... the companies had to pay their portion of the relavent taxes plus pay fines and penalties. BUT, it is a drop in the bucket compaired to what they saved by hiring all the other workers under IC status who DIDN'T dispute their status. Also, in all three cases I knew better to not complain until AFTER I no longer worked for these companies, as there is no question that I would have gotten fired had I disputed my status while working for them.

It would be my guess that most illegals are hired under IC status or work entirely under-the-table for cash.

Because I'm an independent contractor I can't collect unemployment even though I pay into that system.

What ever gave you that idea? :)

Undocumented workers are here to work, to earn money to feed their family.

There is no plot to defraud anyone. The idea is not to get caught so they can go to work every day.

If they use a SS account, they have to maintain it and not get profiled. They pay into it and never get to collect on it. They have to keep their heads down.

They also pay sales tax at the cash register and whatever taxes you have to pay for various utilities.

Jesus.

to tell you that many of them do not pay payroll taxes. There are a variety of ways to get around it. Read my previous post regarding independent contractors. That's just one way.

I do pay, and have always paid, and will continue to pay payroll taxes because I happen to be, for better or worse, a citizen of this country.

It has nothing to do with illegal aliens. It has everything to do with our governments insane policies.

It's about fairness.

policies. The IC loophole is a real mess.

My experience with undocumented workers is, the first priority is not getting caught. If that means paying into an account you can't collect on, do that. If it means not filing because that will put you on the radar, do that. It's about staying safe so you can work.

Undocumented workers are very easy to exploit because they have no recourse to law enforcement. They are easy to rip off or blackmail. It's a dreadful situation.

when we should be mad as hell at a government that is allowing this to happen. If most people could see through all of the bull they would be mad as hell at the politicians. They have created this catastrophe. And no one wins, not the immigrant, and not the American worker.

But instead, some are striking out at the immigrants. This whole subject is hard to get your head around. There is a lot of misplaced anger.

at their (and our) exploiters is worth thinking about. :)

so often--and they always have, whatever society, whatever century.

Nothing could please the powerful more.

of how we pay taxes and most of them don't.

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:hi:

Blame the insurance companies for high costs in welfare. I'll bet the Republicans love your attitude.

Look--the acceptable anti-"illegal" spiel talks about the Rights of the American Worker. Guys like you ring all the racism & xenophobia alarms.

You are wrong. Here in Los Angeles most illieagles use false SS numbers and the monies taken out are never reclaimed by them. Employers here kinda have a don't ask, don't tell policy. If you have the proper paper work you get a job. This is true in service, agriculture, and the fishing industry (processing). How do I know? I used to be a commercial fisherman. I would work my way north on farms until I made enough for my salmon tag. I did not get several jobs because I had lost my wallet and did not have my SS card, or CDL. The same thing happened in Northern Cal, and Oregon. I was pissed because people who were obviouly not citizens were working but I wasn't. They had paper, and I did not and that was that. The moral of that story was those people pay into the system and don't get it back. They ante up payroll taxes, SSI, FICA, the works. They have just as much right as anyone to protest in this country, our founders spoke of rebelling against taxation without representation. Go back to listing to Rush, you don't know what you are fucking talking about.

You don't think that they know how many dependents to claim on their W-4 to have little or no income tax withheld. And you are also assuming that these law-abiding contractors are withholding income tax and FICA and sending it to the treasury. They often have several working on the same Social Security card. There are a lot of dodges and the illegals and their employer's know them all.

It's true. I heard it from "the horse's mouth".

:eyes:

If more than one person is using the same SS account, it ups the amount of taxes you owe, not the other way around.

The whole deal depends on staying below the radar and keeping out of trouble. So, no, multiple people using the same SS number is not a preferred strategy.

a employer of illegal immigrants. If so I really have no time for you and hope you get busted.
If that is not the case, again you are assuming that the employers of these people are in fact submitting them to the feds which might or as likely not be the case.

in California all my life and have known many undocumented workers. But, thank you for your good wishes anyway.

I also served as a Spanish interpreter in the City and County of San Francisco and used to translate in all the courts. Lots of stories.

/typo

These are hard working, law-abiding people only wanting to provide a better life for their families. At least that's what I'm told here. So why would they be in court?

The Houston police do NOT do La Migra's job--just because they don't want a segment of our population afraid to speak up.

had only witnesses and victims to provide translators for but I guess that many of our illegal immigrants are not as law abiding as yours, with the exception of that little illegal entry thing.

But--if they're "illegal"--they are already guilty. Why even bother with a trial?

on conviction. Others tried and sentenced accordingly.
Still waiting for you to list those unions you belonged to, after claiming there were no union members in that other thread.

We have translators in the hospitals as well.
I'm wondering if you MIGHT be aware that there are many citizens over here legally who don't have full capability to understand complicated language (as one might find in a courtroom or a hospital), thus it is translated into their first language so that their rights or their health remain protected.
But please don't tell me you are one of THOSE people who chant that if they can't speak our language proficiently, they don't need to be here.:eyes:

boss:..Okay Jose, I'm hiring you..your papers are in order, right? right?

Jose: yes they are..

boss: (knowing they are bogus)..Okay then.. You will get $7.00 an hour and here's your w-4 for your withholding.

Jose: Okay..when do I start? (he know's he's about to get ripped, but a job with SOME pay is better than none.


Fitst pay period rolls around and boss deducts from his check.. FICA (7.25% for Jose and boss must match it and send it in)..Fed WH...State WH..SDI... and any local taxes..

Jose KNOWS his information is bogus, but who's he going to complain to?? He accepts his check and cashes it at a storefront check cashing place that charges him up to 10%..

boss pockets the 7.25% and all the other taxes because he never even bothers to file any papers..(No use drawing attention to his business)...

Jose has given him a big kick-back for the priviledge of showing up to do grunt labor for very little return..

and if Jose hurts himself, he knows better than to even try and file for disability or worker's comp..

Both knows what the other is up to, but both keep their mouths shut ...


or..

boss may just give Jose a written notice of deductions and offer to "cash" his check there.. the "check" is then just ripped up, and there is no record at all

Sometimes, boss just turns Jose in on payday. n/t

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I cannot believe the heartless crap I have seen on this board since this whole discussion began. I also might add that it is certainly bringing out the racists and xenophobes. This is another typical election year wedge issue, whichm by the way, is diverting everyone's attention from the real criminals, who sit in the White House and Congress. Instead, we are busy focusing our hatred on people who pick lettuce and mop floors. We really should punish the employers. For example, hire and illegal amd you go to jail or have your house or business confiscated. Real punishment, not some measly fine Wal-Mart can absorb in five minutes.

You used the generic (for Pat Bucannon) term for brown folk, a very revealing, and a nice touch. They are so lazy they risked their lives getting here.. Gulp down another oxycontin and STFU!

If a business is audited and discovered to have withheld taxes and not paid it, BIG BIG trouble.

If they want to avoid taxes, they put those folks under day labor. But if they're withholding, most of them with a peanut's worth of sense are going to pay it. Much more likely to face an audit than INS.

the employees are too afraid of l'migre to say much..and they change jobs often to avoid detection..

Sure there's businesses who do this, I've known people who were shocked to discover some of their FICA didn't get paid in at retirement time. But the ones who are inclined to do this aren't going to differentiate between legal and illegal. They're equal opportunity assholes.

"Both knows what the other is up to, but both keep their mouths shut .."

So WHO should be held accountable in this situation?

Aren't they BOTH wrong?

Their employers deduct the the taxes.

upset about this. Can't hurt to try to keep the conversation on an even keel. :)

the emotions going. The only other issue that I have seen get this much attention is Russ Fiengold's Censure motion, since I've been here.

by raising this issue right now, the Thuggery wants us all to not think about their 157 scandals.

This issue is pail in comparison to living in a corporate religious RW police state.

We have to get rid of these guys. They're gonna get us killed one of these days. They run with scissors.

:)

That's the truth. And now I can't get the image of them doing that out of my head.

:hi:

:)

I posted some info from a study on immigrant myths and realities that shows undocumented immigrants do pay taxes downthread.
I think you'll found that and the site itself pretty interesting. Take a look when you get the chance.

had a gig in northern CA opening for him. He's TALL! From my swooning position, ahem, he seemed TALL.

lol

Meeting Smokey!
And Mr. sfex opening for him. What an amazing night that must have been.

Smokey sang his wedding song for us.

400 blue haired ladies wept in the audience and I did, too.

It was pretty awesome and completely in the best interests of good theater.

:P

and on top of good theater, it shows what a gracious man Smokey is.

And what a lucky woman you are!

but, just because they think it's right.

:toast:

And on that note, I better call it a night - oops, or early morning. I don't want to be yawning all day at work tomorrow.

where the freeps were fighting each other over the issue. I can't bring myself to visit there often, but I would guess that their debates as emotionally charged as those here on DU.

I had a bizarre conversation with a friend yesterday, who's spouse is a life-long, Clinton-hating, "don't question authority" type repub. Apparently, because their daughter just had a baby with a Mexican national working here illegally, he opposes the House bill because it would make them felons. So, he plans to vote for Hillary Clinton in 2008. (Hillary Clinton! Whaaaaaa...t?)

However, my passionate proclamation that we should be penalizing businesses that hire illegal workers, made her blanch and left her momentarily speechless, as she is VERY pro-business. She knows I'm very pro-union, so she started her Thomas Friedman/Global Economy argument and said, "Unions are never coming back."

She also thinks, in essence, that our southern border should be open. Again, she's a republican. I'm reluctant to make any assumptions based on party lines when it comes to this issue.:crazy:

See post #63.

Then apologize to Erika.

Gotcha' covered!

IsItJustMe owes you an apology.

employer. Many of them work as independent contractors and/or are paid under the table. This means these folks are not paying payroll taxes.

That tells me all I need to know about your education and intelligence. If it walks like a freeper and talks like a Freeper.....

"No it don't" ---> No, it doesn't

"all Illigal Alien" ---> all illegal aliens

I also notice that you don't back up your statements with any documentation so it's just empty rhetoric and "talking through your butt" as far as I'm concerned. Your argument has no merit.



Oh, and those agriculture and construction workers you mentioned elsewhere...

The GAO report stated that a disproportionate number of unmatched earnings reports come from industries such as "eating and drinking establishments and construction,"

http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/2006/02/ss_secret_stash.html

According to an SSA report of March 2001, 9 states account for 70 percent of the wage items posted to the ESF. California alone accounted for 35 percent. Additionally, 3 industries—services, restaurants, and agriculture—accounted for 46 percent of these wage items.2

http://www.nilc.org/immsemplymnt/SSA-NM_Pack/C04_SSA_NM_Facts-e.pdf

Better luck next time.

In general. Not every case.

I have witnessed it myself - A Guatemalan man who works at whatever labor he can find, lives in a shanty town in a canyon, and ships a few thousand dollars of US currency home every six months to feed his wife and umpteen children.

There has to be a better way.

Of course, about 2/5 of the money went for tickets to bring relatives to the New World.

They would be eligible for earned income credits...so we basically save by their not filing.

The government wins.

Where do you get your reasoning from?

They deduct payroll taxes whether the SS# is legit or not. There have been numerous discussions of this on previous threads.

seen it happen

are independent contractors? Is that what you're saying?

But, for undocumented workers, it doesn't happen to rip anyone off. It happens because they can't be caught. So, don't make waves.

Don't call the police if you are raped.

Don't ask your boss questions about how you are paid.

/ack

Don't argue if someone tries to rip you off.

It's a very bad situation for everyone.

There's more legal citizens who have been paid under the table than illegals. I'd bet there are more people outrunning their child support getting paid under the table than illegal immigrants. Point being, the tax argument is completely bogus and a made up excuse to target immigrants.

Regardless of whether the workers are legal or illegal. That's the point, and that it isn't just an illegal immigration problem. It's a labor exploitation problem and needs to be addressed at the front end, the business end.

HUGE fines...make it not worth the cash to break the law ;)

I just have to know. I'm hoping you're 15 and just haven't gotten out much.

:spray:

And no, not all businsses pocket the FICA either. There is a huge huge huge penalty if your books are audited and the IRS discovers you've withheld taxes and didn't pay it.

Gawd I'm sick of the bullshit being spewed on this issue.

If an immigrant can provide a SS card they are off the hook. There are a couple of ways to get a SS number with little hassle.

Most immigrants do get FICA and FIT deducted from their wages. Very few employers want to risk any problems from the IRS on this issue. It's only the day laborers who get paid under the table.

through their butts about something they know nothing about.

Some Illegals are paying taxes. Others are not. My money is on that most of them are not. Especially the ones in agriculture and construction.

1.) Under the table
2.) Independent contractor
3.) And then there are the rest

Need I say more

My family hired a lady about 20 years ago to help us take care of my grandmother. My grandmother was in a vegitative state for about ten years. My single mom couldn't work AND take care of her at the same time. There was no other option. We'd tried nursing homes and my grandmother developed bed sores within 48 hours of being in one of those places.

That lady lived with us and took very fine care of my grandmother until she died. I will never forget her kindness.

undocumented workers back when it wasn't illegal to do so, and I can guarantee that they had taxes taken out of their checks. They still do. The IRS doesn't give a shit about the legal status of workers. They are only interested that the taxes are collected and can be very nasty if an audit turns up the fact that any worker has been paid under the table and the taxes not deducted and handed in to them.

The vast majority eventually find fulltime jobs with phony SS#'s and do have taxes withheld. They also get driver's licenses, open bank accounts, establish credit and rent apartments. They do this with pay stubs.

impossible, for us to come up with hard statistics, and all we really have to go by on this, is our own life's experiences.

I have worked in construction, so my experience has been that they are paid as independent contractors. You have familiar with day laborers, I can see why we would come to different conclusions.

as independent contractors are par for the course, and I understand your frustration. Those are good-paying jobs (or used to be).

Nice to have a civil discussion that doesn't end in name-calling. Take care, my friend.

I bet you never imagined that the person talking through their butt might be YOU!

See post #63.

"Need I say more"

Heavens NO...you've ranted and embarrassed yourself more than enough for one day. Further outbursts are completely unnecessary.

If you can provide documented statistics/estimates of those in agriculture and construction that are paid "under the table" or as "independent contractors", please grace us with the source off your great wisdom. And while you're at it, clarify what "the rest" is supposed to be. Otherwise, there's nothing more for us to discuss.

they have just lost my trust over the past few years...they are a republican media machine.

From the NATIONAL IMMIGRATION LAW CENTER


When an employer’s report contains wage reports
that include name/Social Security number (SSN)
combinations that do not match SSA’s records, SSA
conducts a series of electronic edit procedures to
correct mistakes, such as typographical errors or
other common reporting errors. If these procedures
do not result in a name/SSN combination that
matches SSA’s records, the wages are placed in the
Earnings Suspense File (ESF). As of July 2002, the
ESF contained approximately 236 million wage items
totaling about $374 billion. These figures represent
the total amount of uncredited wages reported from
TYs 1937 through 2000. In TY 2000 alone, SSA
posted 9.6 million items and $49 billion in wages to
the ESF. Wage items and their associated dollar value
are only removed from the ESF when the wages can
be matched and posted to an individual’s earnings
record.1

1 Social Security Administration, Office of Inspector General, Congressional Response Report: Social Security Administration Benefits Related to Unauthorized Work (A-03-03-23053), Mar. 18, 2003.

http://www.nilc.org/immsemplymnt/SSA-NM_Pack/C04_SSA_NM_Facts-e.pdf


What's your defense NOW?

some do...some don't. You would be very hard pressed to find any data to give you the amount of folks that follow it and those that don't. Its not that I think a premise is wrong...I think you just need to not trust that people will follow the law...and anyone who thinks they know that number needs to go think about how many folks come over here illegally every single day.

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Statistics? Facts to back up any of your claims in this thread? Damn your all over this thread, spewing bullshit. And others here are taking the time to post 'links' and such in the attempt to educate you on the issue. Take a look as some of them, start with post #63. Hope this helps. And no, you need not say more, you've said enough already. Peace. :)

Have a nice day.
:hi:

any links? :hi:

Your problem Harpo is you don't quote anything. Why burden yourself with sources and facts of any kind, keeps life simple doesn't it? Still looking for those links huh? Your hilarious! Awwwww heck I couldn't resist posting the picture. He was pretty funny too. Peace :)

nice to know someone cares ;)

http://www.urban.org/publications/900898.html

Undocumented immigrants pay the same real estate taxes—whether they own homes or taxes are passed through to rents—and the same sales and other consumption taxes as everyone else. The majority of state and local costs of schooling and other services are funded by these taxes. Additionally, the U.S. Social Security Administration has estimated that three quarters of undocumented immigrants pay payroll taxes, and that they contribute $6-7 billion in Social Security funds that they will be unable to claim (Porter 2005).

That's from a recent study. Their sources are listed at the website.

Thanks. Printing for later reading.

There's a good breakdown of myths and truths about immigration.

And the center itself was started by President Johnson and civic leaders.

Here in San Diego County our mild climate allows thousands of people to live out in the brush, under bridges, etc.

citizens, naturalized, documented or undocumented.
And in many climates that are not as hospitable to that as Southern California's.

The price of housing here is astronomical. I've seen 1- or 2-bedroom apartments with a dozen or more people living in them.

Are they individually "not contributing their fair share" to the landlord's property taxes? Tough question. I'm sure counties and municipalities would like to collect a per capita residence tax if they could.

and it impacts so many people, especially the working poor who especially need to be close to their places of employment.

It's pretty bad up here in Seattle, too.

And I know what you're talking about down there, since I lived in Orange County for quite a few years.
It also impacts students, particularly those who attend colleges without residences and they are some of the people crowding together into apartments and houses.

I don't doubt that some municipalities would like to tax on a per capita basis. That would instantly broaden the tax base, but I wonder if any of that would go to solving what creates the situation, the lack of low-cost housing options.

an acknowledgement that the OP may not have been entirely accurate? Don't we want to have a reasoned discussion based on studies, research, truth, honesty, and real events rather than personal ideology?

But you would have known that if you had bothered to look at the site or if you had even responded once studies were brought into this discussion.


http://www.urban.org/about/index.cfm

;)

pay taxes on income and don't pay into SS and medicaid? Even when there's plenty of evidence and annecdotal comments on DU that they do? Any evidence at all that they don't?

I'm pretty fried and disappointed on the whole topic of immigration, but I'm curious about the process that an apparently reasonable person goes through to stick to his guns in the face of countering facts. Not even a "well...I guess there's a chance that a good number pay into the system"? or, "maybe some articles I've read have stretched their claims too far" or "I'm willing to say I've overstated my case"??

Just curious and wondering out loud.

unless you track every single illegal immigrant that comes into this country and gets a job. All these folks saying "you need to provide proof of what you are saying"...yeah Bush said something similar to Saddham...prove you don't have WMD's...geez people.

There are things you cannot prove...hopefully folks understand that.

and reasoned point.

:eyes:

Clearly nothing anyone says here, be it based on experience or studies, will get you to consider any view but the one you have already fixed on and thrown out in the OP.

Still, I hope other people taking part in the discussion will be willing to at least look at and think about the points and studies that have been raised in this thread.

Actual facts! thank you! :yourock:

Well in that respect then, they're just like the "Haves and the Have Mores,"(Bush's Base)who don't pay taxes anymore either, after four bushler tax cuts for the wealthy.

On "Bush's Base"...Bush knows not his ass from third base...

"Third base"

:rofl:

…..the estimated seven million or so illegal immigrant workers in the United States are now providing the system with a subsidy of as much as $7 billion a year.

While it has been evident for years that illegal immigrants pay a variety of taxes, the extent of their contributions to Social Security is striking: the money added up to about 10 percent of last year's surplus - the difference between what the system currently receives in payroll taxes and what it doles out in pension benefits. Moreover, the money paid by illegal workers and their employers is factored into all the Social Security Administration's projections.

Illegal immigration, Marcelo Suárez-Orozco, co-director of immigration studies at New York University, noted sardonically, could provide "the fastest way to shore up the long-term finances of Social Security."

-snip-

Starting in the late 1980's, the Social Security Administration received a flood of W-2 earnings reports with incorrect - sometimes simply fictitious - Social Security numbers. It stashed them in what it calls the "earnings suspense file" in the hope that someday it would figure out whom they belonged to.

The file has been mushrooming ever since: $189 billion worth of wages ended up recorded in the suspense file over the 1990's, two and a half times the amount of the 1980's.

In the current decade, the file is growing, on average, by more than $50 billion a year, generating $6 billion to $7 billion in Social Security tax revenue and about $1.5 billion in Medicare taxes.


http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F7091FFC345B0C768CDDAD0894DD404482

Or

http://www.truthout.org/cgi-bin/artman/exec/view.cgi/37/10128

The ASSumption that "illegals" are a financial burden to the "legals" isn't based on economic reality.

to extrapolate all the people I've met paying in and not collecting to ALL THAT UNCLAIMED MONEY.

We're ALL being scammed left and right. All of us.

This is important information.

and the truthout article references the NYT article.

When an employer’s report contains wage reports
that include name/Social Security number (SSN)
combinations that do not match SSA’s records, SSA
conducts a series of electronic edit procedures to
correct mistakes, such as typographical errors or
other common reporting errors. If these procedures
do not result in a name/SSN combination that
matches SSA’s records, the wages are placed in the
Earnings Suspense File (ESF). As of July 2002, the
ESF contained approximately 236 million wage items
totaling about $374 billion. These figures represent
the total amount of uncredited wages reported from
TYs 1937 through 2000. In TY 2000 alone, SSA
posted 9.6 million items and $49 billion in wages to
the ESF. Wage items and their associated dollar value
are only removed from the ESF when the wages can
be matched and posted to an individual’s earnings
record.1

1 Social Security Administration, Office of Inspector General, Congressional Response Report: Social Security Administration Benefits Related to Unauthorized Work (A-03-03-23053), Mar. 18, 2003.


http://www.nilc.org/immsemplymnt/SSA-NM_Pack/C04_SSA_NM_Facts-e.pdf


What's your defense NOW? Or is the Social Security Administration data all bogus too, in harpoworld?

which they don't...so it can't be entirely accurate.

I was checking to see where people were who held mortgage notes, and I can't tell you how many people I would find listed under the same social security number. There was almost no way to unravel it.

When I found the first incidence of this, I was told it was commonplace. Shortly, I found they were correct.

I am just reporting what I found. I don't know why some people choose to do this or what ramifications this may have. I wondered if people were "sharing" the numbers for some reason.

undocumented workers.

The people I know wouldn't even risk being pulled over for speeding, let alone tying themselves to a real estate deal that is documented in so many ways. But, that's my experience.

I had similar professional experience (not chasing deadbeats, but looking at people's employment and income histories) and shared SSNs were common. For those who were working for employers who didn't pay them in cash this was a necessity.

one, I can see that happening.

they pay in. In fact, most religiously complete an Income tax return every year....cause they remember that during Reagan's "AMNESTY" program one only needed to show proof of filing taxes for at least 10 years to establish proof of residency! So they do pay "Taxes"...and on the kind of money many make, that really is the biggest tax to be paid....

I know...as a tax preparer in the Bay Area since 1984, I've prepared those taxes...

which is inaccurate. That's all I'm saying!

thanks :)

How much Exxon pays, how much Wal-mart pays, how much taxes the mega-corporations pay. I worry not about the pittance that would come from very low paid immigrant workers would pay, I worry about the Corporate freeloaders.

The only illegal that I know I know personally works job to job, and everything is usually withheld up front. They don't file income tax and change their SSN every year or so. I suspect they are paying more taxes than a lot of people on their income.

The others being common humanity and solidarity with the poor.

doesn't it? It means you are saying...it is OK for you to have broken the laws of this land.

As for breaking the laws, Rosa Parks was a lawbreaker when she refused to ride on the back of the bus. The "illegals" are refusing to remain on the back of the bus.

so on that front it is a wash. They do pay sales taxes - and generally since the income is low - at a higher overall percentage of income than most folks.

It's an easier cop-out than to hold big corps accountable isn't? I wish I could say what I want without getting kicked off this site...

Good Brown Shirt mentality.

time they hire an illegal worker..this has nothing to do with attacking anyone. More of making the point that they DO have an impact.

Oh, wait--none of us do.

The state keeps raising property tax--& those increases DO get passed on to renters. And Sales Tax keeps going up--both State & City taxes.

You've already gotten more inforation on the Federal taxes, too.

everyone pays that.......

this crap once and for all I think.

Would pay more than their share.

I'm not surprised by your choice.

help me understand the logic...thanks!

thanks for sharing :)

They say that most do pay taxes. If that is the case, one of the stipulations for "the path to legitimacy" should be producing tax returns for the past five years and proving the number of dependents claimed is accurate. Those that paid their share of taxes O.K., those that didn't...........sorry.

I haven't looked in years but that's how it used to be I seem to recall.

do

http://select.nytimes.com/search/restricted/article?res=F7091FFC345B0C768CDDAD0894DD404482

BUSINESS/FINANCIAL DESK


Illegal Immigrants Are Bolstering Social Security With Billions


By EDUARDO PORTER (NYT) 1746 words
Published: April 5, 2005


...

Starting in the late 1980's, the Social Security Administration received a flood of W-2 earnings reports with incorrect -- sometimes simply fictitious -- Social Security numbers. It stashed them in what it calls the ''earnings suspense file'' in the hope that someday it would figure out whom they belonged to.

The file has been mushrooming ever since: $189 billion worth of wages ended up recorded in the suspense file over the 1990's, two and a half times the amount of the 1980's.

In the current decade, the file is growing, on average, by more than $50 billion a year, generating $6 billion to $7 billion in Social Security tax revenue and about $1.5 billion in Medicare taxes.

In 2002 alone, the last year with figures released by the Social Security Administration, nine million W-2's with incorrect Social Security numbers landed in the suspense file, accounting for $56 billion in earnings, or about 1.5 percent of total reported wages.


...

All three of the undocumented workers I have worked with for 7 years all have "borrowed" SS#. For all seven years they have paid into SS, Medicare, and have paid federal taxes.

Here in SF, it is common practice to pay to "borrow" a name/SS# from American citizens. The undocumented worker gets US ID and the American gets someone paying into the SS system for them without having to work. Any undocumented worker who has a "borrowed" SS# is paying into the full system.

Not all undocumented workers are the folks who stand on the side of the street waiting to get picked up for a job and live outside the system.

Where did you come up with that idea?

Can you support it at all?

How to self-destruct on DU in one easy stupid-ass post.

You have quite spectacularly been proven to be completely and utterly wrong.

Your original declaration was that they did not pay any taxes. So are you now going to concede that MOST undocumented immigrants DO pay all required taxes?


(Edited to remove inaccurate quotes)

not something I will concede to. We cannot pinpoint the number of illegal immigrants that come into this country, we cannot difinitively say that it is most or not.

And for the record I don't see the word ANY in my original post ;)

I said that you should support a claim you made.

Can you? You haven't as far as I've seen.

Illegal immigrant DO pay taxes on any paycheck they receive. Social Security witholding and IRS Income Tax witholding.

They pay sales tax on anything they buy.

They even pay property tax on property the own (or embedded in their rent).

But, they get few benefits.

:eyes:

If they have to have a SS# to work, they can buy a fake card and give that SS# to their employer. But they don't file a tax return (hence, they get no refund).

The ones who are paid under the table do not pay income taxes.